Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[ozemouze]

MJ always had a lot of haters, so that's nothing new really. It comes with the level of success he achieved (which generated a lot of jealousy as well), plus unique personalities often attract heated reactions.

Those who always hated him for whatever reason found justification in the accusations, then were silenced a bit when after MJ's death there was an outpouring of love for him. Now these people are reinforced again in their hatred by LN and have became more vocal, but don't forget they already hated MJ to begin with. On the other hand there are those who accepted the media portrayal of his guilt before but after watching LN and finding it suspicious started to investigate and now are supporters (or even fans) of MJ.

My concern isn't the general public, but the media which is obsessed with destroying MJ's legacy on a level that's not understandable anymore. I don't except them to start celebrating him, but they could give the whole MJ bashing a rest at last.

 

[dethorro]

Re: MJ feeling the LN backlash in Belgium

Sorry but comparing scream to black or white is a bit foolish. Black or white is pop perfection. Scream was a track that didn't sound particularly radio friendly and it's sound was too different to the stuff the people were used to back then. Besides your point doesn't make sense as the 2nd single from that album YANA was a worldwide nr 1 hit anyway.
Also the allegations started in 93 not in 95, to see if it had impact we'd have to look at his sales/airplay in 93.

You Are Not Alone hit Nr.1. .....yes. But that was because You Are Not Alone sounded like everything that was played on pop radio at the time. But how well did the other singles off of HIStory do in the U.S., on the Billboard Hot 100 chart?
-Scream hit Nr. 5
-Earth Song didn't chart
-This Time Around didn't chart
-They Don't Care About Us hit Nr. 30
-Stranger In Moscow hit Nr. 90

Also, how about the backlash surrounding the They Don't Care About Us lyrical content. You don't think that has to do with the allegations in any way? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened, had Michael released They Don't Care About Us on Dangerous.

Believe me, we don't have to look at the sales in 1993 to see if the allegations did any damage to Michael and his album and single sales. It's obvious that by 95', they were still on the public's mind. Look at the Diane Swayer interview, for example. She still asks him questions about the allegations.
And sales in 1993 weren't great either. Gone Too Soon didn't chart on the Hot 100 chart and only hit Nr. 33 in the U.K.

Obviously, the 1993 allegations didn't do as much damage as the ones from 2003. But still, saying they didn't do any damage is just wrong imo.

 

[myosotis]

MJ always had a lot of haters, so that's nothing new really. It comes with the level of success he achieved (which generated a lot of jealousy as well), plus unique personalities often attract heated reactions.

Those who always hated him for whatever reason found justification in the accusations, then were silenced a bit when after MJ's death there was an outpouring of love for him. Now these people are reinforced again in their hatred by LN and have became more vocal, but don't forget they already hated MJ to begin with. On the other hand there are those who accepted the media portrayal of his guilt before but after watching LN and finding it suspicious started to investigate and now are supporters (or even fans) of MJ.

My concern isn't the general public, but the media which is obsessed with destroying MJ's legacy on a level that's not understandable anymore. I don't except them to start celebrating him, but they could give the whole MJ bashing a rest at last.

But I think the media onslaught after 'LN' was partly money-driven. The print media are dying on their feet. They have all got internet platforms but the money from advertising there isn't great, unless the 'click' volumes are enormous. Sadly lascivious stories have always attracted more attention than political or other news stories, and MJ allegations have become the ultimate clickbait.

The only small ray of light is that some of these click-bait -supported newspapers (in the UK) likely won't survive the coronavirus pandemic in print form at all, and may even collapse completely. Journalists will say such print-news collapses are a threat to democracy in that the print media hold government to account. However, print media have spent so many years chasing celebrity stories for money, that many readers view the non-celeb stories as irrelevant 'filler', instead of the other way around. The print media have authored their own demise.

 

[Anna]

If you want to be delusional and believe that this will affect MJ long term then go right ahead and take an exit out of this forum because I won't stand to tolerate this sh*t anymore. It's one thing for MJ to be attacked out in the wild but it's a completely offensive thing to have it happen in an MJ-safe space.

Do not tell other members to leave the forum because you disagree with their opinions. If you cannot engage in respectful discussion with another member, ignore them and move on.

And that goes for everyone in here. Either show some tolerance and respect for other people's feelings and points of view, or just don't respond.

And stay on topic.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

There is an ignore user function if you go into your settings. If you prefer not to see certain posters posts then use this.

Thank You. i'll be using this more often.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Re: MJ feeling the LN backlash in Belgium

You Are Not Alone hit Nr.1. .....yes. But that was because You Are Not Alone sounded like everything that was played on pop radio at the time. But how well did the other singles off of HIStory do in the U.S., on the Billboard Hot 100 chart?
-Scream hit Nr. 5
-Earth Song didn't chart
-This Time Around didn't chart
-They Don't Care About Us hit Nr. 30
-Stranger In Moscow hit Nr. 90

Also, how about the backlash surrounding the They Don't Care About Us lyrical content. You don't think that has to do with the allegations in any way? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened, had Michael released They Don't Care About Us on Dangerous.

Believe me, we don't have to look at the sales in 1993 to see if the allegations did any damage to Michael and his album and single sales. It's obvious that by 95', they were still on the public's mind. Look at the Diane Swayer interview, for example. She still asks him questions about the allegations.
And sales in 1993 weren't great either. Gone Too Soon didn't chart on the Hot 100 chart and only hit Nr. 33 in the U.K.

Obviously, the 1993 allegations didn't do as much damage as the ones from 2003. But still, saying they didn't do any damage is just wrong imo.

I think the fact that YANA and the 2 following singles who were also embraced worldwide + a worldwide sell out tour show that the Chandler allegations had almost no impact.
Gone too soon was like the 9th(?) single of Dangerous an album that was released 2 years prior plus it's definitely not single material, the flop of that song is totally understandable imo (it's one of my faves though). I think purely from a commercial viewpoint there was no apparent backlash. The damage was mostly done to MJ as a person. He was a changed man after 93, sadly enough.

 

[JichaelMackson]

But I think the media onslaught after 'LN' was partly money-driven. The print media are dying on their feet. They have all got internet platforms but the money from advertising there isn't great, unless the 'click' volumes are enormous. Sadly lascivious stories have always attracted more attention than political or other news stories, and MJ allegations have become the ultimate clickbait.

The only small ray of light is that some of these click-bait -supported newspapers (in the UK) likely won't survive the coronavirus pandemic in print form at all, and may even collapse completely. Journalists will say such print-news collapses are a threat to democracy in that the print media hold government to account. However, print media have spent so many years chasing celebrity stories for money, that many readers view the non-celeb stories as irrelevant 'filler', instead of the other way around. The print media have authored their own demise.

Also quality media with respectable journalists side with the LN narrative. The media remains the most powerful tool in the world, one that shapes and figures everything around us , especially our thinking. They plant seeds in our heads until we are fully brainwashed and we can't think straight anymore.
MJ is not the first and won't be the last celebrity they have taken down but the public generally accepts this because we don't see megastars as human beings anymore but as some kind of deity. That are the seeds they plant, they bring you up and then tear you down and we follow blindly.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Oprah got more of backlash than MJ.

This comment interests me and is worth replying too. I'm not from the US so Oprah pretty much means nothing to me or anybody in Europe. As a result I'm not aware of any backlash against her.
How real is this backlash? Do her ratings drop? Have high profile people attacked her? Or is it just some random twitter backlash that is as meaningless as mine or yours opinion?

 

[JichaelMackson]

It seems as if you are the one in a coma. Have you not seen all of the things that MJ fans have uncovered to rebuke that NAMBLA/child porn film LN? Where have you been? Why do you think Michael has gained so many new fans since that @#$& was released. No intelligent and rational person believe those two pieces of trash. The only people who believe them are actually pedophiles themselves or people who WANT children to have been abused, when they really weren’t, for their own sick gratification.

That fraudomentary has had the opposite effect. There are many, many people who NOW support Michael more than they ever did in
The first extortion plot or the fake 2005 case. It has caused people to see the AGENDA of Oprah Winfrey and the other conspirators
Involved. Just maybe you need to wake up and see what’s really happening, instead of focusing only on what you want to see-negativity.

Of course I have seen what Mj fans uncovered to rebuke the claims. We all have but I have not learned this info from reading newspapers or watching the news.
There's a whole lot of assumptions in your response without any factual proof.
How many new fans has he gained? Impossible to measure.
The only people that believe the lies are pedo's themselves? Very offensive statement
LN had the opposite effect on many people? Can't say this is a fact, I certainly haven't met those people anyway.
Oprah agenda? Like my supposed agenda here? Another baseless assumption.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Also quality media with respectable journalists side with the LN narrative.

Could you please link a couple of articles that are well researched by respectable journalists for quality media, that still side with LN? Curious to read those.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Could you please link a couple of articles that are well researched by respectable journalists for quality media, that still side with LN? Curious to read those.

I can't because I'm referring to Dutch articles. Quality newspapers like "De Morgen" and "De Standaard" generally accepted the narrative of LN. I perhaps incorrectly assumed quality newspapers all over the world did the same.
As for well researched, there aren't any. Journalists don't do research you should know that. They just copy paste everything they read

 

[myosotis]

Also quality media with respectable journalists side with the LN narrative. The media remains the most powerful tool in the world, one that shapes and figures everything around us , especially our thinking. They plant seeds in our heads until we are fully brainwashed and we can't think straight anymore.
MJ is not the first and won't be the last celebrity they have taken down but the public generally accepts this because we don't see megastars as human beings anymore but as some kind of deity. That are the seeds they plant, they bring you up and then tear you down and we follow blindly.

Sadly I think the non-tabloid (?= 'Quality media') paper press have all effectively gone tabloid in content. They may have a scattering of 'serious' journalists to pay lip service to the political viewpoints that their readers may hold, but 50% or more of 'quality' media content now comprises 'entertainment features' (gossip) about politicians, footballers, authors, TV personalities & etc. I remember long ago that 'serious' papers used to have a 'women's page' for fashion and entertainment stories (about film stars etc), but since women have become more economically active and independent, the newspapers have expanded their 'entertainment' coverage until it at least equals, and certainly at weekends has become the majority of the content.

And I think that most coverage of celebs., footballers, TV personalities etc. is 'adverse' (about relationship breakups etc) because humans are willing to pay for gossip, not necessarily to 'tear down' x or y person (most folk don't care about celebs that much) but more to show that celebs are 'just like you and I' with all our faults and frailties.

For MJ, I think the especially unpleasant attacks reserved for him are because the media want to say he was 'not like us'- and this 'othering' gives them licence to say much worse things about him, because the press feel that most people don't identify with him. It is bullying, plain and simple.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Sadly I think the non-tabloid (?= 'Quality media') paper press have all effectively gone tabloid in content. They may have a scattering of 'serious' journalists to pay lip service to the political viewpoints that their readers may hold, but 50% or more of 'quality' media content now comprises 'entertainment features' (gossip) about politicians, footballers, authors, TV personalities & etc. I remember long ago that 'serious' papers used to have a 'women's page' for fashion and entertainment stories (about film stars etc), but since women have become more economically active and independent, the newspapers have expanded their 'entertainment' coverage until it at least equals, and certainly at weekends has become the majority of the content.

And I think that most coverage of celebs., footballers, TV personalities etc. is 'adverse' (about relationship breakups etc) because humans are willing to pay for gossip, not necessarily to 'tear down' x or y person (most folk don't care about celebs that much) but more to show that celebs are 'just like you and I' with all our faults and frailties.

For MJ, I think the especially unpleasant attacks reserved for him are because the media want to say he was 'not like us'- and this 'othering' gives them licence to say much worse things about him, because the press feel that most people don't identify with him. It is bullying, plain and simple.

I think I agree with what you said. MJ was/is bullied that's what happens with easy targets, they always get bullied. If he had acted like a womanizer he would be more "respected" as then he would be one of the guys (most journalists, especially 30 years ago were male). But it is what it is , slightly different behavior always gets ridiculed to the extreme.

 

[myosotis]

Could you please link a couple of articles that are well researched by respectable journalists for quality media, that still side with LN? Curious to read those.

In the UK the Times, Telegraph and Guardian have all sided with LN purely on the basis of 'believe victims'. No journalist in any of these 'Quality' newspapers has looked into the allegations vs the court cases.

'The Guardian' in particular has printed very negative MJ articles by multiple journalists (including interviews with Reed) , between Jan / Feb and November 2019, and it is very clear that this newspaper is 'editorially' siding with Channel 4 / HBO.

(I don't want to put links here, as this isn't the place for negative and totally uninformed views about MJ).

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I perhaps incorrectly assumed quality newspapers all over the world did the same.

Looks like it.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

OK, here is what turns up in a search for LN on the German news outlet that I’m usually reading (and occasionally watching on TV):

http://www.tagesschau.de/suche2.html?query=leaving+neverland

Just for perspective.

One single article about the art exhibition not closing prematurely after LN aired.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Looks like it.

Am I reading some passive aggressiveness towards me in this post?

 

[ozemouze]

In the UK the Times, Telegraph and Guardian have all sided with LN purely on the basis of 'believe victims'. No journalist in any of these 'Quality' newspapers has looked into the allegations vs the court cases.

'The Guardian' in particular has printed very negative MJ articles by multiple journalists (including interviews with Reed) , between Jan / Feb and November 2019, and it is very clear that this newspaper is 'editorially' siding with Channel 4 / HBO.

It's true but the articles weren't written by quality journalists and were usually mere opinion pieces, often by the same "writers". Plus in some cases the smear campaign seems more and more like deflection. The last anti-MJ hit piece by the BBC (do anyone else other than MJ fans/haters even remember that there was one some weeks ago BTW?) mostly got a general reaction of advising them to "go and search your own vaults instead if you want to find abusers".

This comment interests me and is worth replying too. I'm not from the US so Oprah pretty much means nothing to me or anybody in Europe. As a result I'm not aware of any backlash against her.
How real is this backlash? Do her ratings drop? Have high profile people attacked her? Or is it just some random twitter backlash that is as meaningless as mine or yours opinion?

It comes from the general public so it's mostly on social media but I think it's serious. It's not just because of MJ, people are simply waking up and start to see through her hypocrisy and fakeness (and MJ is a good example for that, among others). MSM will always back her up, but they are generally losing touch with the public and this starts to show.

 

[ozemouze]

Am I reading some passive aggressiveness towards me in this post?

Oh please, like valuating some comments like "this is worth replying to" (basically implying others aren't) isn't?

Look, I understand the frustration, even the need to vent it out, but this isn't the right form. I also tend to be negative (and call it realistic ), but we have to learn to not pour it out on others and pull them down as well.

I think this request is perfectly reasonable and understandable and it would be nice if you could respect it:

It's one thing to have an opinion. But when the opinion is destructive in a place where you're supposed to escape the negativity towards MJ is pretty f*cked up if you ask me.

A separate topic for venting out the frustration may be a good idea. The other solution for others is to block you, but you have many valuable contributions elsewhere (e.g. in music sections which I've seen) so it would be a shame IMO.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

A separate topic for venting out the frustration may be a good idea. The other solution for others is to block you, but you have many valuable contributions elsewhere (e.g. in music sections which I've seen) so it would be a shame IMO.

https://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/...Neverland-quot-Rant-amp-Support-Thread-Merged

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Am I reading some passive aggressiveness towards me in this post?

The fact that you took the time to write this while you don’t comment on my following post showing you a specific live example of a credible media source from Germany suggests you need to look up what “confirmation bias” is. If you’re only looking at the negative, you will only see the negative. That’s really all I have to say regarding this whole conversation.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Another example from April 18th: a regional newspaper reports on kids recording “Heal The World” and discusses the meaning of the song. No mention of LN at all. Like, literally nothing.

https://www.rnz.de/nachrichten/region_artikel,-corona-singen-mit-michael-jackson-kinder-der-carl-freudenberg-schule-singen-heal-the-world-auf-video-_arid,510203.html

They even embedded the official MJ video along with the kids’ version.

 

[terrell]

This comment interests me and is worth replying too. I'm not from the US so Oprah pretty much means nothing to me or anybody in Europe. As a result I'm not aware of any backlash against her.
How real is this backlash? Do her ratings drop? Have high profile people attacked her? Or is it just some random twitter backlash that is as meaningless as mine or yours opinion?

Yes her backlash is real even she admits it. yes, her ratings drop and her network is hit. Yes high profile people have attacked her from Monique, Snoop, 50 cent, Bill Beillamy, Ricky smiley, etc. and even on the radio to callers who call about her. She felt it. Like I said, she got a backlash more than MJ. And see that is what I do not get about you, You are WILLING to question if there is really a backlash against Oprah (something even she admit she got and still feeling) YET you want to hype up as if MJ is done despite all the great things that are going on for MJ even people giving MJ praise for wearing the mask now. I do not sense no "Pessimism" when you discuss Oprah.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Yes her backlash is real even she admits it. yes, her ratings drop and her network is hit. Yes high profile people have attacked her from Monique, Snoop, 50 cent, Bill Beillamy, Ricky smiley, etc. and even on the radio to callers who call about her. She felt it. Like I said, she got a backlash more than MJ. And see that is what I do not get about you, You are WILLING to question if there is really a backlash against Oprah (something even she admit she got and still feeling) YET you want to hype up as if MJ is done despite all the great things that are going on for MJ even people giving MJ praise for wearing the mask now. I do not sense no "Pessimism" when you discuss Oprah.

I don't know anything about Oprah, I only know she is a talkshow host that is very popular in the USA, I even heard talk of her being a presidential candidate... How would I know she says she is feeling backlash over her actions? Why would I be pessimistic about a woman I don't care for?
I was just looking for factual proof that her star is "taining". If you say it does, I believe you.

 

[JichaelMackson]

The fact that you took the time to write this while you don’t comment on my following post showing you a specific live example of a credible media source from Germany suggests you need to look up what “confirmation bias” is. If you’re only looking at the negative, you will only see the negative. That’s really all I have to say regarding this whole conversation.

I saw that post but didn't comment on it because I don't quite understand it, My German isn't good enough to understand what it is about.

 

[JichaelMackson]

Oh please, like valuating some comments like "this is worth replying to" (basically implying others aren't) isn't?

Look, I understand the frustration, even the need to vent it out, but this isn't the right form. I also tend to be negative (and call it realistic ), but we have to learn to not pour it out on others and pull them down as well.

I think this request is perfectly reasonable and understandable and it would be nice if you could respect it:

That was a passive aggressive post of me too, I agree But it was mostly aimed at users just saying I'm fake.
Let's bury the hatchet (until I get a next fit ;-) )

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I saw that post but didn't comment on it because I don't quite understand it, My German isn't good enough to understand what it is about.

It shows that a search for LN on a credible German news website produces exactly 1 result, and it’s not even about the movie itself, but about an art exhibition. LN is a non-topic for credible media.

This news outlet’s 8 pm TV news has a market share of >40%, btw., and this is what normal people watch to stay informed.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

Yes her backlash is real even she admits it. yes, her ratings drop and her network is hit. Yes high profile people have attacked her from Monique, Snoop, 50 cent, Bill Beillamy, Ricky smiley, etc. and even on the radio to callers who call about her. She felt it. Like I said, she got a backlash more than MJ. And see that is what I do not get about you, You are WILLING to question if there is really a backlash against Oprah (something even she admit she got and still feeling) YET you want to hype up as if MJ is done despite all the great things that are going on for MJ even people giving MJ praise for wearing the mask now. I do not sense no "Pessimism" when you discuss Oprah.

It seems as if this person really does have some kind of “agenda” and that is only to look for negativity and IGNORE all of the positive things about Michael. There are celebrities everyday doing tributes to Michael and this person JM just willfully and conveniently ignores that. Yet, he/she can’t or won’t see how Oprah has received backlash since her contrived involvement in this extortion plot/ conspiracy with MSM, Geffen, Reed, Roberson, Safechuck, etc. It really sickens me when some people want to ignore what is blatantly obvious. Yet, that same person can ONLY focus on negativity towards Michael. As I have stated before, maybe this person is guided by his/her surroundings(location, friends, family, etc.) and thinks THAT is the only narrative.

MJ fans have always had to fight for Michael. This @#$& is nothing new. As Michael said, “he had to have the skin of a rhinoceros” or he would have cracked up under the crap that haters and media spewed at him. MJ fans also have to have “rhinoceros” skin or you shouldn’t be a fan. We HAVE to be the toughest, smartest, most AWARE fans out there because of what these jealous cretins spew.
Bottomline is if a person can’t handle it, then step away from this fandom. This fandom is not for the weak, or easily swayed. One has to know when they are being manipulated, because that is what the media/tabloids, haters have been trying to do for over 30 years. It’s called “divide and conquer”. Don’t fall for the bull$#@*! :mat:

 

[JichaelMackson]

It shows that a search for LN on a credible German news website produces exactly 1 result, and it’s not even about the movie itself, but about an art exhibition. LN is a non-topic for credible media.

This news outlet’s 8 pm TV news has a market share of >40%, btw., and this is what normal people watch to stay informed.

OK, do you happen to know the ratings of that positive MJ doc that showed on German tv a couple of weeks ago? Was anything written in the media about it?

 

[somewhereinthedark]

Of course I have seen what Mj fans uncovered to rebuke the claims. We all have but I have not learned this info from reading newspapers or watching the news.
There's a whole lot of assumptions in your response without any factual proof.
How many new fans has he gained? Impossible to measure.
The only people that believe the lies are pedo's themselves? Very offensive statement
LN had the opposite effect on many people? Can't say this is a fact, I certainly haven't met those people anyway.
Oprah agenda? Like my supposed agenda here? Another baseless assumption.

1. Of course, you won’t read what MJ fans uncovered from reading a newspaper. Surely, you don’t think the media will admit that they are biased and wrong. I don’t know how o.d you are or how long you have been a fan. BUT, the media has NEVER admitted they were wrong about Michael because they WANT him to be guilty. Btw, if you haven’t been around for 30+ years. Then you won’t know what I am speaking of.
2.Factual proof? Where is your FACTUAL proof? I haven’t seen any from you. I’ve only seen NEGATIVE assumptions.
3. From the comments that I have read on different forums, it seems as if people who believe these fake allegations have the sick tendency to FANTASIZE about children being abused when they really weren’t. I have ready many, many co ments from people who seem to actually “get off” or take glee in the graphic NAMBLA inspired me crap that the two extortionists spewed. THAT’s offensive!
4. I have stated several times that maybe it’s your location, friends, family, etc. that guides your narrative. According to YOU, you have not been around anyone who had anything except a negative response toward Michael after watching the fraudomentary. SEE, that’s where you and I differ. The people that I am around- friends, family, associates, people I work with, radio stations I listen to, celebrities that I follow and read about had a positive view of Michael after watching LN. It didn’t take a rocket scientist to know that these pieces of trash were lying through their teeth. Of course the people who already hated Michael and WANTED it to be true, didn’t care abut the extortionists’ lies and fantasies.Their allegations were based on pure fantasy and gossip. NO FACTS!
5.You state that you have never met anyone who had a positive opinion of Michael after viewing the fraudomentary. Again maybe it’s who you surround yourself with-friends, family, associates, your location, etc. FTR, I haven’t experienced what YOU are stating. I truly thought that I would have heard negativity from the people zi work with, associates, etc., to this day I have NOT. After the R.Kelly Docu, that was the talk of the workplace. It was complete opposite with Michael, people who were not really MJ fans came up to me saying they didn’t believe the @#$& that was spewed from LN.
6. Finally, you state that you don’t have any evidence that LN had the opposite effect than what you experienced. However, I DO HAVE THAT EVIDENCE. So, is it baseless assumptions on your part to ASSUME that everyone is negative, just because YOU say so? Sorry, it doesn’t work that way in the real world. Btw, YOUR world is not everyone’s world. Stop acting as if it is.