Bad Tour DVD [CLOSED] Cont. discussion in The Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley DVD Quality

[charismatic]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Is it possible that williampecchi, jr is the director who filmed the Bad Tour? Michael wrote him a personal note that was auctioned off on Julians Auctions with Michael talking to him about the importance of capturing the magic of the tour and him being a leadership role and working with the other camera men? Does anyone know.

 

[Hess]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I will wait and judge after it's released I think.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

you know what Bumper, even that's the case you have two choices whether to buy or not buy it.

In a perfect world we would have gotten the perfect Blu-ray, however the world is not perfect. For whatever reason we aren't getting it. So we can spend all of our time to bitch and moan about the release or choose to be happy with what we get - even though it might be perfect. So it's every person's own decision to buy or not. and honestly I'm fed up with the constant negativity. I'll be enjoying this release. I will happily put the DVD to my HD TV and watch the magic of Michael even though it might be blurry or not perfect. and for the record if there's ever a DVD quality controversy thread that goes on for 1+ years, you won't find me there.

Could we have a discussion on this very relevant topic calmly? Why you have to get so emotional and brand this constant negativity? It really isn't fair to many of us who have concerns. Bumper did not mention a word about not buying this DVD. Actually, he's amongst the most enthusiastic about Bad 25. The post that you quoted is information about VHS vs DVD vs Blu-ray. Nothing based on assumption, but all facts.

No, it doesn't take a perfect world for the Estate to authorize a quality release. Let's not become too patronizing. Almost every concert release in 2012 is available in Blu-ray format. While I understand there might be some unresolved legal issues, I guess it's not totally not understandable that we are feeling frustrated here. Many have explained why it's disappointing that we can't watch the Bad Tour the way it should be watched.

I appreciate your constant effort in serving as a liaison between the MJ Online team and fans. But, if you are really fed up about this discussion, then take a break please.

I don't think we all need to be cheer-leaders all the time. I can feel excited and skeptical the same time. These two feelings aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[ivy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Could we have a discussion on this very relevant topic calmly? Why you have to get so emotional and brand this constant negativity? It really isn't fair to many of us who have concerns. Bumper did not mention a word about not buying this DVD. Actually, he's amongst the most enthusiastic about Bad 25. The post that you quoted is information about VHS vs DVD vs Blu-ray. Nothing based on assumption, but all facts.

No, it doesn't take a perfect world for the Estate to authorize a quality release. Let's not become too patronizing. Almost every concert release in 2012 is available in Blu-ray format. While I understand there might be some unresolved legal issues, I guess it's not totally not understandable that we are feeling frustrated here. Many have explained why it's disappointing that we can't watch the Bad Tour the way it should be watched.

I appreciate your constant effort in serving as a liaison between the MJ Online team and fans. But, if you are really fed up about this discussion, then take a break please.

I don't think we all need to be cheer-leaders all the time. I can feel excited and skeptical the same time. These two feelings aren't mutually exclusive.

first of all please let bumper to talk for himself, you don't need to be cheerleaders for him all the time. Secondly there's nothing "emotional" in that post.

I wrote that I understand the frustrations and the concerns and I believe that to be valid as well, that's why I took the initiative to voice those concerns. If I didn't believe in their validity and seriousness I wouldn't have done so.

However there's this we can't be satisfied vibe. Again let me remind that since 2005 fans have been campaigning for Wembley concert release. We are the ones that asked for a non-touched full concert. But it's not enough right? I understand perfection but it might not always be reality. In a perfect world Michael's art will be in his possession, his clothes would not be going on an auction block and yeah Michael would have been alive. But real life and business life is not always perfect. for example what if for whatever reason the only footage Estate has is that VHS, you don't want it released then because it's not up to your quality standards? What if that's the case?

What annoys me most is that even that people get the "we heard you, we'll address it" response they would still run ahead with speculation. You want to be heard, you want to get a response but even that's promised you can't even wait to hear what they are going to say. Then people ask why their questions aren't answered. There's no sense in talking to someone who is not willing to listen to you or give you the benefit of the doubt.

And as I said if what Bumper said is "all facts" and the VHS quality cannot be improved, then this debate is actually over. If you believe to be the case then you know you'll be getting crappy quality. So it brings us to my post saying that it's everyone's personal choice to buy it or not buy it. It's as simple as that.

I personally choose to enjoy it. I also don't think that not so perfect footage can prevent me from experiencing the magic of Michael. If you don't agree, that's fine as well.

 

[mjj19582009]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

The reasons for concerns here are how are you going to sell a VHS copy of Michael Jackson in 2012 where technology has improved drastically and it's MICHAEL JACKSON we're talking about here. Blu Ray is the thing now and not VHS its like me putting a great sound on something that you can't bear to watch because of the quality. I think if Sony has an announcement to make they need to make it ASAP before us hardcore fans go wild about the quality and start boycotting this project. I think Wembley was a great concert from what I'm reading very energetic Princess Diana was attending but the main factor here is the VHS. Blu Ray is what we need not VHS so Sony needs to find a way to convince us that the quality won't be BAD soon. I would love to see him the first night in Los Angeles or in NY where almost all the songs (except MITM) were performed live on BLU RAY!

 

[ivy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I think if Sony has an announcement to make they need to make it ASAP before us hardcore fans go wild about the quality and start boycotting this project.

see the above, and people think I'm emotional about negativity. Wake up and smell the negativity people.

 

[charismatic]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

This right here.... Seems like this guy was Michael's hand-picked video director for the tour. He's telling him how to capture the show including crowd shots etc. Michael really cared about this art form that is video.

 

[Hess]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

This right here....

I can't really write this.

If someone would write here what the letter says I would be very very happy.

 

[Richard Lecocq]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

with all the great montages MJ did and okayed in his lifetime, I am surprised to see some fans have been underestimating his video vault. the man would document EVERYTHING. I pretty much many people focus on the audio vault not realizing the extent of the video one.

 

[charismatic]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

If i only had the time, I would. Go to Julia's auction and you do a screen shot of the letters and you can read them better their. But basically michael was telling the director that he rarely writes letters but wanted to express to him the importance of capturing the concert in the best way possible. He expressed also his great respect for the art for a film and was giving a little encouragement on how to lead the other cameramen etc. It's really beautiful but further shows how important the quality of his films were to him. This "unearthed" letter is michael's message to us to keep pushing for a quality release!!

 

[charismatic]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I can't really write this.

If someone would write here what the letter says I would be very very happy.

If i only had the time, I would. Go to Julians Auction website and do a screen capture of the letters and you can read them better there. But basically michael was telling the director that he rarely writes letters but wanted to express to him the importance of capturing the concert in the best way possible. He expressed also his great respect for the art form of film and was giving a little encouragement to the director on how to lead the other cameramen etc. It's really beautiful but further shows how important the quality of his films were to him. This "unearthed" letter is michael's message to us to keep pushing for a quality release!!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

you know what Bumper, even that's the case you have two choices whether to buy or not buy it.

No kidding. I thought we had only one choice. What does this comment have to do with my concern about Michael Jackson's video quality?

In a perfect world we would have gotten the perfect Blu-ray, however the world is not perfect. For whatever reason we aren't getting it.

In the current world the VHS are unexistent in the stores, there are less and less DVDs and more and more blu-rays. MJ fans have the right to raise concerns without being labeled negative.

So we can spend all of our time to bitch and moan about the release or choose to be happy with what we get - even though it might be perfect.

There are people who bitch and moan about MJ's fans' legitimate concerns labeling them as being negative and at the same time who submit, shut up and never dare question anything.

So it's every person's own decision to buy or not. and honestly I'm fed up with the constant negativity.

Personally I will be buying it no matter what, so I don't see why you are even bringing this up. But despite the purchase it is everyone's right to reflects on the subject. There is no real negativity, just a sincere concern. I think it is you who see the negativity. It is as if no one should ever dare question the quality of the VHS video only because it is officially released.

I'll be enjoying this release. I will happily put the DVD to my HD TV and watch the magic of Michael even though it might be blurry or not perfect.

You can do exactly the same with the bootleg releases.

and for the record if there's ever a DVD quality controversy thread that goes on for 1+ years, you won't find me there.

This was so unnecessary and out of topic.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

This right here.... Seems like this guy was Michael's hand-picked video director for the tour. He's telling him how to capture the show including crowd shots etc. Michael really cared about this art form that is video.

1)

Pecky,

I very, very seldom write letters but in this moving occasion I couldn't help myself. I want to thank you for putting the effort forward to capture the magic and excitment of the people of the world. What you do is a very personal and powerful medium to me. It is the out of stopping time, to preserve a moment that the naked eye cannot hold, to capture truth, spontaneous truth the depths of excitment in human spirit. All else will be forgotten but not the film. Generations from now will experience the excitment you've captured , it truly is a time capsule. I will not be totally satisfied until I know you are at the right angle at the right time to capture a crescendo of emotions that happens so quickly, so spontaneously ->

(2)

What you have done was good, but I want the best, the whole picture, cause and effect. I want crowd reaction, wide lens shots, depths of emotion, timing. I know we can do it. It is my dream and goal to capture truth. We should dedicate ourselves to this. The person who makes a success of living is the one who sees his goal steadily and aims for it unswervingly. That is dedication. There is no other way to perfection than dedicator perseverance. Just tell us what you need to make it happen. Take the leadership to direct the other cameramen. I enjoy working with you that is witty. I asked you to come, you have a gentle spirit that's very likable. Maybe I look at the world through rose colored glasses but I love people all over the world. That is why stories of racism really disturb me. You hurt my heart and soul when you told me of your boyhood in tears. Because in truth I believe all men are created equal. I was taught that and will always believe it.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I really don't care about blu-ray. I don't even have blu-ray player. The difference between DVD & blu-ray is great picture & amazing picture. I'm satisfied with DVD quality. But what we are getting here is not DVD quality, it's youtube quality of an old VHS. It's actually worse than VHS quality.

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

GoFlying himself told that the estate owns every concert Nocturne filmed.

Can someone contact GoFlying member and find out the whole story about this. And I mean everything that he knows about the Bad Tour, Nocturne productions, why VHS tape, copyrights, if they have other concerts in better quality, where are the film masters, is any other show available on film...

Maybe he knows more then us, he was in contact with the Estate, maybe he stiil is?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Can someone contact GoFlying member and find out the whole story about this. And I mean everything that he knows about the Bad Tour, Nocturne productions, why VHS tape, copyrights, if they have other concerts in better quality, where are the film masters, is any other show available on film...

Maybe he knows more then us, he was in contact with the Estate, maybe he stiil is?

I don't think he knows where the film is, but the Estate does put a lot of effort for this project.

 

[bobmoo79]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

1)

Pecky,

I very, very seldom write letters but in this moving occasion I couldn't help myself. I want to thank you for putting the effort forward to capture the magic and excitment of the people of the world. What you do is a very personal and powerful medium to me. It is the out of stopping time, to preserve a moment that the naked eye cannot hold, to capture truth, spontaneous truth the depths of excitment in human spirit. All else will be forgotten but not the film. Generations from now will experience the excitment you've captured , it truly is a time capsule. I will not be totally satisfied until I know you are at the right angle at the right time to capture a crescendo of emotions that happens so quickly, so spontaneously ->

(2)

What you have done was good, but I want the best, the whole picture, cause and effect. I want crowd reaction, wide lens shots, depths of emotion, timing. I know we can do it. It is my dream and goal to capture truth. We should dedicate ourselves to this. The person who makes a success of living is the one who sees his goal steadily and aims for it unswervingly. That is dedication. There is no other way to perfection than dedicator perseverance. Just tell us what you need to make it happen. Take the leadership to direct the other cameramen. I enjoy working with you that is witty. I asked you to come, you have a gentle spirit that's very likable. Maybe I look at the world through rose colored glasses but I love people all over the world. That is why stories of racism really disturb me. You hurt my heart and soul when you told me of your boyhood in tears. Because in truth I believe all men are created equal. I was taught that and will always believe it.

That doesn't sound like a man who would be content with only owning a VHS of the performance he did infront of British royalty.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

That doesn't sound like a man who would be content with only owning a VHS of the performance he did infront of British royalty.

Well, hardcore fans are just as demanding as MJ was himself. That's why this topic is the right place to raise the concern. I don't know why the fans are those who are blamed for requesting exactly the same as what MJ was requesting: the best that there is.

I won't let myself neither bribed by not sufficient quality nor intimidated by people turning a blind eye on how the things are done. Michael deserves the best and without raising concerns we risk to get crap.

 

[big DB]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

okay after stepping back for a couple of days and just reading the thread daily, I think the main concern everyone shares, which seems most valid from this discussion is:

Nocturne productions filmed MJ's gigs, every single one! including the Wembley 88 show being released, the question is why can't the estate use a master copy of the Jumbotron edit shown to the crowd that evening, possibly from beta tape (or allegedly film reel???) and utilise a better quality source than VHS?

The estate have said in their statement for the press that the VHS is the only copy known to exist, however we have heard from several sources say that the estate have the master copies from Nocturne? Not to mention, over the years various news outlets were given copies of footage to show, and these copies must have been cloned from a master. There are TV networks and even fans who have traded Bad Tour footage looking to be in better quality than VHS.

The estate own all copyright and distribution rights, no one is able to sell or promote anything to do with Michaels tours without the estate, the Dangerous Tour's performance in Bucharest has been released and was filmed also by Nocturne productions, so what is the problem they are up against with this release? Noone would have a say in this release apart from Nocturne, or the Estate.Michael (not Nocturne) personally sold the rights for this concert to be shown around the world in 1992 and also be released on dvd in 2005, therefore it is confusing as to why he hasn't retained the same rights and privileges when it pertains to concerts filmed by the same production company for an earlier tour?



I too am so grateful about the release of a Bad Tour but i guess these are real questions and concerns that stem from love and passion for this project to be the absolute best, and not to spread negativity, only to enhance the project for the better!

 

[DarkZavage]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

i myself have been waiting 10 years for a second leg bad tour show, in pro footage, and i know there are people who have waited longer. i have signed multiple petitions to get Wembley released. and for the first time ever, Sony and the estate have listened and are releasing what we have asked for. Yet you guys still find a way to complain and want more - Wembley is released, "well, i want LA." - Michael's own personal VHS: "i want blu-ray."
I for one, will get shivers, knowing i am watching a copy of a VHS that Michael Jackson himself owned, and probably watched multiple times, in his own VHS player... Would i like a blue-ray quality release of it? Sure, of course i would, there is no question. But is 10 years wait going to be ruined because of bad video quality? Hells No! (sound is more important in a live performance anyway imo)

so guys, for a change, be happy we are getting what we asked for, this does not happen often.

 

[DarkZavage]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

You can do exactly the same with the bootleg releases.

pls point me in the direction of a Bad tour Wembley bootleg,

thanks in advance

 

[big DB]

Michael would have expected nothing less...


taken from "What I learned from Michael" (evident Productions blog)
http://www.evidentproductions.com/


"Jackson shattered all barriers... He didn’t just want wow, he wanted mind-blowing, and anything less was not worth doing. Whereas other artists might be OK with the status quo, Jackson wanted and personally invested in the best and allowed us all to work to our full potential. He pushed our capacity for creativity and greatness and that’s why he set the standard in the industry. He also trusted us who knew the technical side of things to make his vision a reality.

His perfectionism showed in everything he did, in his style of dance, in his performance details, in his attention to every note in his songs, and in his personal involvement in the creativity and development process of the shows he produced."


I think Michael would have pushed for better quality, and in my heart I know he would not have been satisfied with a VHS transfer when no doubt another source exists somewhere, it may require some work to get there, so to justify the millions the estate makes, I think they should put some more work into this release.

 

[big DB]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

i myself have been waiting 10 years for a second leg bad tour show, in pro footage, and i know there are people who have waited longer. i have signed multiple petitions to get Wembley released. and for the first time ever, Sony and the estate have listened and are releasing what we have asked for. Yet you guys still find a way to complain and want more - Wembley is released, "well, i want LA." - Michael's own personal VHS: "i want blu-ray."
I for one, will get shivers, knowing i am watching a copy of a VHS that Michael Jackson himself owned, and probably watched multiple times, in his own VHS player... Would i like a blue-ray quality release of it? Sure, of course i would, there is no question. But is 10 years wait going to be ruined because of bad video quality? Hells No! (sound is more important in a live performance anyway imo)

so guys, for a change, be happy we are getting what we asked for, this does not happen often.

sure everyone will be happy with the concert no matter what happens, however in the spirit of Michael here, i think the fans are allowed to ask certain questions which hold a lot of merit given what we know? thats all

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

okay after stepping back for a couple of days and just reading the thread daily, I think the main concern everyone shares, which seems most valid from this discussion is:

Nocturne productions filmed MJ's gigs, every single one! including the Wembley 88 show being released, the question is why can't the estate use a master copy of the Jumbotron edit shown to the crowd that evening, possibly from beta tape (or allegedly film reel???) and utilise a better quality source than VHS?

The estate have said in their statement for the press that the VHS is the only copy known to exist, however we have heard from several sources say that the estate have the master copies from Nocturne? Not to mention, over the years various news outlets were given copies of footage to show, and these copies must have been cloned from a master. There are TV networks and even fans who have traded Bad Tour footage looking to be in better quality than VHS.

The estate own all copyright and distribution rights, no one is able to sell or promote anything to do with Michaels tours without the estate, the Dangerous Tour's performance in Bucharest has been released and was filmed also by Nocturne productions, so what is the problem they are up against with this release? Noone would have a say in this release apart from Nocturne, or the Estate.Michael (not Nocturne) personally sold the rights for this concert to be shown around the world in 1992 and also be released on dvd in 2005, therefore it is confusing as to why he hasn't retained the same rights and privileges when it pertains to concerts filmed by the same production company for an earlier tour?



I too am so grateful about the release of a Bad Tour but i guess these are real questions and concerns that stem from love and passion for this project to be the absolute best, and not to spread negativity, only to enhance the project for the better!

Thanks big DB! The last paragraph of your post summarize what this discussion is all about in a truthful manner. Cheers! :huggy:

 

[Arklove]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I'm personally getting sick and tired of being labelled as negative because we're discussing (in the thread made appropriately for this topic so we don't infiltrate the general discussion of this release!), yet we're still criticized in our own thread..

I think ALL of us who have expressed questions and concern about this primitive format of release have stated time and time again that we ARE happy with this release! What else do you want us to say?? I'm not kissing anyone's ass, sorry. We have every right to discuss this...So please, stop with this 'negativity' crap...

I've gone around in the other BAD25 threads expressing my happiness and excitement for ALL parts of this release...Even the concert....So why don't those people who are constantly calling us negative comment on any of THOSE posts (not just by me, but by others as well)...It's your own fault if you want to zero in on only the 'negative' aspects...

I just want to see any MJ product being released as the best that can be offered...Why is that wrong to ask for? It's my money I'm spending, it's my idol's legacy and artwork being presented...

We can sit around and 'wait and see' until release, but what good would that do? Then it's out in the stores and nothing else can be done by that time....

The fact of the matter is that VHS is crap quality. Period. Why deny that? So we're concerned and want Michael Jackson to be shown in a way that every other artist is shown....I just want to know WHY VHS is all that is available...Estate, I'm not putting you down, but please, this is what Michael put you in charge for...

I didn't care about WHAT concert was released...I personally don't know the difference...lol....I just want great quality that includes SC,DD,TWYMMF....Too much? I don't think so...Especially considering not a single official live concert of MJ has ever been released aside from Bucharest...

Michael Jackson always wanted the BEST..Did we, as fans, EVER question that? I don't think so. So then why are the fans now being criticized because we want what we're accustomed to. Yes, Michael is not here to create his magic....BUT, with this release, the magic is already there...But in a sub par quality. We are the consumers. This is our prerogative. Not 'be happy with whatever we can get'...THAT type of attitude gets you VISION, and the MICHAEL album...What year are we living in exactly? The opportunity is there, the technology is there...The resources are there....USE THEM!

GO BIG OR GO HOME ...

 

[Galactus123]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Was Bucharest concert recorded on film or tape?

 

[Jesta]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Especially considering not a single official live concert of MJ has ever been released aside from Bucharest...

Technically, the HIStory Tour in Seoul, Korea was released on VHS in '97 or '98, I believe

 

[Arklove]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Technically, the HIStory Tour in Seoul, Korea was released on VHS in '97 or '98, I believe

Ah was it? Didn't know that....but you get my point

 

[Jesta]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Ah was it? Didn't know that....but you get my point

I did; I just liked being a technical jackass Actually, I would love to see the quality of the Seoul concert without any fan remastering and compare to any other Wembley snippets that may arise in due time - they were shot very similarly i.e. very few crowd shots (given that the DVD is based on what was shown on the JumboTrons).

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I agree with Arklove, i made this topic becuase people were calling us negitive torward this wonderful release. I created this topic for a debate, and i love debate. In fact without the Michael Album debate i may have not stayed here as long as i have. Im interested in debate, its fun and i learn alot. But at the end of the day, i am a consumer, and i work for my money and i want it to go torward a quality product (which we are getting), we just want to know all the ifs, ands, buts, who, what, when, why, and hows.