Bad Tour DVD [CLOSED] Cont. discussion in The Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley DVD Quality

[Deleted member 9375]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Right, I'm gonna stay out of these threads because most of them have been talking about the visual quality I'm now doubting something I was really looking forward to. Fans need to chill and not jump to conclusions. I'm sure those 20-30 secound snippets were only released for the sake of giving the media something to show the public and not what we'll be actually getting. There's no way they could possibly release a dvd in that quality surely.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

if you want an honest response, MJ fans are the only group of people that loves to rush to conclusions.

A VHS quality is not rushing to conclusions but being realistic.

We are the ones that believe Perez Hilton's tabloid story of Glee,

Who's Perez Hilton???? (I know who he is, but there you give him too much importance. Non-American fans don't give a damn what Perez Hilton has to say nor do they know who he is actually).

hate remixes before even hearing them and look to a a few second promo to start speculating about DVD. In most instances people actually wait to see / learn more before rushing to premature conclusions.

Regarding remixes, I think that we fans are tired of re-hashes of old stuff, that's why the remixes are just as exciting as when any MJ fan makes one. There is nothing really special about a remix.

Regarding premature conclusions, again, it is surreal to hope to have a good video quality IF the source is VHS.

Furthermore there's 4 months to the release and the work on the release can still be ongoing. For example Spike Lee is still shooting his documentary. Similarly the work on the DVD can be still ongoing and they might have released pre-enhancement promos. There's still time.

Post-enhancement videos will be limited, it's a fact. Unless they work from the original film, hoping that they have it.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

No it's the fans and our "can't wait" attitude.

It was the fans who discovered the Bad 25 logo from trademark registrations. Immediately people rushed to conclusions that all black logo did not look nice, they didn't even paid attention that the registration did not cover colors.

When the actual color logo was sent , immediately some people again started to hate it. "wait and see it on where it's used" comments was even rejected.

Today you can see that such negativity has passed and the colors are changed to fit the background. The gray border was to make it fit with the Pepsi cans. This demonstrates that if we wait for more information we get more satisfaction. In some instances our speculations and negativity is premature and quite frankly not needed.

I'm all for stating our concerns and ask the questions - and like I said for several times now - it has been already done with Estate and Sony. They both have said they'll respond to it over time. I think we can wait to see what they'll say before we attach another negativity to a such important and waited release for us all.

With regards Bad 25, your spot on! People are getting way ahead of themselves.

 

[StellaJackson]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I think it's only fair to judge the dvd from the trailer. That's the whole point of the trailer. Plus there is no evidence to say it will be any better.

 

[ivy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

And look to the release , they actually listened to everything we asked.

Untouched previously not released songs / demos, full Wembley concert that fans campaigned since 2005.

Yet people tend to find something to complain even though they are giving us everything we asked for.

Furthermore again we are seeing speculation without knowing who has access and rights to the concert footage. Just because it's shot doesn't mean Estate does have access to it or can use it. For example Michael Jackson's master recordings from the 70's TV show is at the possession of Henry Vaccaro since mid 90s. 2 lawsuits weren't able to get them. Estate and Vaccaro/Mann is still arguing about the copyrights in a court. Michael's art is in the possession of Brett Livingstone-Strong. Whether Estate will be able to get them or not will be determined in the next months / years. It turns out most of Michael's clothing is in the possession of Michael Bush and set to be sold later this year. So it's not that easy as some of you make it sound like. As previously unreleased a Bad concert footage might mean millions of dollars in buying the footage/rights costs, officially releasing Wembley might reduce the value of the rest and make it easy for Estate to acquire the rest of the concerts. What I'm trying to say is business is not as simple as "I want that release it".

 

[Gfresh]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

As a matter of fact, this is my suggestion - release both Wembley 88 and LA 89. If LA 89 is of better quality, then Wembley 88 VHS rip should be a bonus feature. Pack them together.

The Queen concerts were not released seperately. There is no reason for me to believe Sony would release LA 89, the same concert, within a short period of time. From a business standpoint, it's pointless.

Lets ask the estate we can make this happen

 

[Boggy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

And look to the release , they actually listened to everything we asked.

Untouched previously not released songs / demos, full Wembley concert that fans campaigned since 2005.

Yet people tend to find something to complain even though they are giving us everything we asked for.

Furthermore again we are seeing speculation without knowing who has access and rights to the concert footage. Just because it's shot doesn't mean Estate does have access to it or can use it. For example Michael Jackson's master recordings from the 70's TV show is at the possession of Henry Vaccaro since mid 90s. 2 lawsuits weren't able to get them. Estate and Vaccaro/Mann is still arguing about the copyrights in a court. Michael's art is in the possession of Brett Livingstone-Strong. Whether Estate will be able to get them or not will be determined in the next months / years. It turns out most of Michael's clothing is in the possession of Michael Bush and set to be sold later this year. So it's not that easy as some of you make it sound like. As previously unreleased a Bad concert footage might mean millions of dollars in buying the footage/rights costs, officially releasing Wembley might reduce the value of the rest and make it easy for Estate to acquire the rest of the concerts. What I'm trying to say is business is not as simple as "I want that release it".

Amen !

 

[Jesta]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

And look to the release , they actually listened to everything we asked.

Untouched previously not released songs / demos, full Wembley concert that fans campaigned since 2005.

Yet people tend to find something to complain even though they are giving us everything we asked for.

Furthermore again we are seeing speculation without knowing who has access and rights to the concert footage. Just because it's shot doesn't mean Estate does have access to it or can use it. For example Michael Jackson's master recordings from the 70's TV show is at the possession of Henry Vaccaro since mid 90s. 2 lawsuits weren't able to get them. Estate and Vaccaro/Mann is still arguing about the copyrights in a court. Michael's art is in the possession of Brett Livingstone-Strong. Whether Estate will be able to get them or not will be determined in the next months / years. It turns out most of Michael's clothing is in the possession of Michael Bush and set to be sold later this year. So it's not that easy as some of you make it sound like. As previously unreleased a Bad concert footage might mean millions of dollars in buying the footage/rights costs, officially releasing Wembley might reduce the value of the rest and make it easy for Estate to acquire the rest of the concerts. What I'm trying to say is business is not as simple as "I want that release it".

This. I'm personally guessing/hoping that - at some point in the coming years - the Estate releases a concert DVD/blu-ray collection with 2-3 concerts from all of MJ's solo tours. What Ivy said there makes a lot of sense and it's the same principle held by collectors: as soon as it's out there, it loses its value.

 

[IMWhizzle]

This. I'm personally guessing/hoping that - at some point in the coming years - the Estate releases a concert DVD/blu-ray collection with 2-3 concerts from all of MJ's solo tours. What Ivy said there makes a lot of sense and it's the same principle held by collectors: as soon as it's out there, it loses its value.

The estate owns the Nocturne masters. So it's easy to release whatever concert we want. It's the scanning the film to 4K and make a Bluray out of that master which makes the process expensive. I think this is a financial matter.

 

[MJ5]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

sure i care about quality too, but I care more about the performance.. and this is what we have wanted for years, now we get a official release not a stupid amateur leak

this concert will be as professional as they are able to do it, it will be good VHS quality and not good DVD Quality, but it doesnt matter!!!!

 

[Pentum]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

The estate owns the Nocturne masters. So it's easy to release whatever concert we want. It's the scanning the film to 4K and make a Bluray out of that master which makes the process expensive. I think this is a financial matter.

I don't think this is true. They would've released the BETA of Wembley then. Nocturne owns the concerts. I will assume the Estate tried to make a deal with them, but it didn't go well.

 

[lom kit]

yes that vhs will definately reduce value of wembley. like copenhagens hdtv broadcast loses value althoe everyone has that concert. see the similarities?

@ivi and all

we know that its an copyright issue.
i said this for 10th time. the estate needs to step up and say what they have access to, what its avaible but not in their hands or not easy to obtain. for what they have rights to and what shares rights.
i know that way people will start to ask more. but we've been speculating for a decade now how is the situation with bad tour.
not only bad, victory, ghosts, captain eo.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

As previously unreleased a Bad concert footage might mean millions of dollars in buying the footage/rights costs, officially releasing Wembley might reduce the value of the rest and make it easy for Estate to acquire the rest of the concerts. What I'm trying to say is business is not as simple as "I want that release it".

This situation is very confusing to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Whoever has possession of the Bad Tour footage cannot release them commercially without the Estate's approval. Hence, the value of the footage is limited. The Dangerous Buenos Aires tape failed to find a buyer. I mean no one will spend million to buy something they can't profit from without getting the Estate's authorization.

Even if the Bad footage is going to costs the Estate's millions, I think the Estate should still get them instead of releasing the Bad VHS quality DVD first and lower the value of Bad. By doing so, the Estate does indeed ruin a great opportunity.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

This situation is very confusing to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Whoever has possession of the Bad Tour footage cannot release them commercially without the Estate's approval. Hence, the value of the footage is limited. The Dangerous Buenos Aires tape failed to find a buyer. I mean no one will spend million to buy something they can't profit from without getting the Estate's authorization.

Even if the Bad footage is going to costs the Estate's millions, I think the Estate should still get them instead of releasing the Bad VHS quality DVD first and lower the value of Bad. By doing so, the Estate does indeed ruin a great opportunity.

Here's the thing: even though the owners of the footage can't use it without the Estate's permission, they can still use their ownership as leverage to seek large payments. As long as the second leg remains unreleased, this is true. However, once a Bad Tour concert is officially released, the Estate will have the advantage as the concert series will have lost its value, so to speak. People would be much more inclined to let go of the footage at a lower price than before. Think of it as the the same principle collectors have: they're more than willing to share it for a high price, but as soon as a low quality version of it comes out they're more willing to release a HQ version at a lower price.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Here's the thing: even though the owners of the footage can't use it without the Estate's permission, they can still use their ownership as leverage to seek large payments. As long as the second leg remains unreleased, this is true. However, once a Bad Tour concert is officially released, the Estate will have the advantage as the concert series will have lost its value, so to speak. People would be much more inclined to let go of the footage at a lower price than before. Think of it as the the same principle collectors have: they're more than willing to share it for a high price, but as soon as a low quality version of it comes out they're more willing to release a HQ version at a lower price.

The only buyer any seller can find is the Michael Jackson Estate. The seller can either get what the Estate is willing to offer or keep holding onto the footage and get nothing.

 

[ivy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

This situation is very confusing to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Whoever has possession of the Bad Tour footage cannot release them commercially without the Estate's approval. Hence, the value of the footage is limited. The Dangerous Buenos Aires tape failed to find a buyer. I mean no one will spend million to buy something they can't profit from without getting the Estate's authorization.

Even if the Bad footage is going to costs the Estate's millions, I think the Estate should still get them instead of releasing the Bad VHS quality DVD first and lower the value of Bad. By doing so, the Estate does indeed ruin a great opportunity.

think of it like a partnership. Yes whoever owns the footage cannot release them commercially without Estate's approval but at the same time Estate also can't release them without getting the rights / permission from such parties.

So it becomes a factor of who has the bargaining power. Given this is the Bad 25th anniversary year Estate might have been in negotiations to buy the footage/rights and the other party as they have the bargaining power might have wanted a really really high amount for it. So Estate might have walked away from negotiations and release what they have at hand. In the hopes to reduce the value of the other footage and have the bargaining power in their advantage.

The value of the footage is limited to third parties but it's not limited when you are dealing with the Estate.

The only buyer any seller can find is the Michael Jackson Estate. The seller can either get what the Estate is willing to offer or keep holding onto the footage and get nothing.

technically they can sell it to anyone. it's just other people cannot release it. remember when BLS tried to sell Michael's art for $40-$50 Million to a private collector and that person asked for a release from MJ Estate?

 

[lom kit]

@imwhizzle
how do you know? what makes you think that?
everyone thinks that michael owns all his stuff. that is true only for his music. even most singers don't own their own music. its not self-evident that he has them.
i think the film material is in noctrume possesion. either the estate doesnt know this or the material is in raw form and its needed money to be produced and finished for release.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

The only buyer any seller can find is the Michael Jackson Estate. The seller can either get what the Estate is willing to offer or keep holding onto the footage and get nothing.

Exactly, so it can work the other way - they can ask high amounts from the Estate because they're the owners of this footage that no-one else has and only they will find it useful in a commercial sense. As Ivy said, it's like a symbiotic relationship and it needs complete co-operation from both sides to work. If one party is asking for too much, the deal will fall through and nothing will come of it, and vice versa. But if the Estate release what they have, then it decreases the value of these elusive concerts, thus making them more inclined to give the Estate the footage more reasonably.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

While I am extremely happy for the BAD25 release, I wonder why are the fans who are blamed for their attitude regarding the VHS release in the blu-ray era? Those who praise the officials and blame MJ's fans attitude, are you actually praising the VHS quality? Is that how much you are concerned about MJ's releases?

I personally have nothing against the VHS release! Let it be. BUT, I don't understand why the Estate needs so much time and effort to communicate with fans and give the reasons for such a release? On top of that people siding with them just make me sick when compared to how much MJ himself was demanding and perfectionist. I don't want to see MJ's perfectionism being ruined by carreless officials and so called fans stepping for them.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

think of it like a partnership. Yes whoever owns the footage cannot release them commercially without Estate's approval but at the same time Estate also can't release them without getting the rights / permission from such parties.

So it becomes a factor of who has the bargaining power. Given this is the Bad 25th anniversary year Estate might have been in negotiations to buy the footage/rights and the other party as they have the bargaining power might have wanted a really really high amount for it. So Estate might have walked away from negotiations and release what they have at hand. In the hopes to reduce the value of the other footage and have the bargaining power in their advantage.

The value of the footage is limited to third parties but it's not limited when you are dealing with the Estate.

The issue is to reach to a mutually agreed upon compromise. I'm not saying the Estate is not trying. But, in my opinion, releasing the poor quality first to drive down the value of the Bad Tour footage is really desperate. I don't think it's a smart thing to do. The value of Bad Tour in general, not just the film held by the seller, will go down. The demand for another Bad Tour will not come back in years.

Only hardcore fans like us can understand the legal issues. The general music buyers will skip a poor quality release.

 

[charismatic]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I don't think this is true. They would've released the BETA of Wembley then. Nocturne owns the concerts. I will assume the Estate tried to make a deal with them, but it didn't go well.

This definitely sounds true. Even though Michael paid them as a "work for hire" to record his shows he is only paying for the finished product. The company that record that footage owns the masters. It's like say you pay a photographer or videographer to record your wedding. He will of course give you HQ media of the wedding and you are free to do what ever you will with them (hopefully including distribute it for profit off his or her work) but the the photographer or videographer (in this case Nocturn) will own the originals. In addition if it wasn't included in the original contract that Michael could sell and release that footage they may have had to go back to Nocturn on bended knees asking for master recordings from each camera, especially if Michael didn't save this footage. The more i think about it, this could be the reason why we may get a VHS copy versus a Beta SP or Film version of the tour.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

The issue is to reach to a mutually agreed upon compromise. I'm not saying the Estate is not trying. But, in my opinion, releasing the poor quality first to drive down the value of the Bad Tour footage is really desperate. I don't think it's a smart thing to do. The value of Bad Tour in general, not just the film held by the seller, will go down. The demand for another Bad Tour will not come back in years.

Only hardcore fans like us can understand the legal issues. The general music buyers will skip a poor quality release.

When I see some comments I realize we are not that many left.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

While I am extremely happy for the BAD25 release, I wonder why are the fans who are blamed for their attitude regarding the VHS release in the blu-ray era? Those who praise the officials and blame MJ's fans attitude, are you actually praising the VHS quality? Is that how much you are concerned about MJ's releases?

I personally have nothing against the VHS release! Let it be. BUT, I don't understand why the Estate needs so much time and effort to communicate with fans and give the reasons for such a release? On top of that people siding with them just make me sick when compared to how much MJ himself was demanding and perfectionist. I don't want to see MJ's perfectionism being ruined by carreless officials and so called fans stepping for them.

Did we ever blame Michael for being as picky and perfectionist as he was? No, we admired his tenacity for wanting the BEST at all times. No matter what, he never took no for an answer. So why are the fans being blamed now?

Yes, I know he's gone. But he also put his trust and life work into the hands of the Estate. They should be an extension of Michael's perfectionist attitude. I would just like to know why they haven't been more resourceful in accessing something better than VHS quality.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

For those who don't understand fans' disatisfaction, here's the answer:

Why are the fans the ones who are obliged to do the impossible to bring MJ's magic back on screens and DVDs such as these bootlegs?

MICHAEL JACKSON ULTIMATE COLLECTION 35 DVD +6 Photos+1B​

This item is brand new in the box factory sealed!​

THIS ITEM COMES IN A COMMEMORATIVE TIN (as pictured)​

This is your chance to own a piece of the Michael Jackson Legacy!​

WHAT'S IN THE BOX:
DISC 1-7
MICHAEL JACKSON THE ULTIMATE COLLECTION MTV
DISC 8
1972 Jackson 5 Paris France concert
1975 Jackson 5 Mexico concert
1979 Jackson 5 London U.K. destiny concert
1981 Jackson 5 triumph concert
Jackson 5 destiny concert feature
DISC 9
1987 Brisbane Australia BAD concert
DISC 10
1987 Yokohama Japan BAD concert
DISC 11
1988 U.S.A. BAD concert
DISC 12
1992 Live in Bucharest: Dangerous Tour
DISC 13
1993 Live In Israel: Dangerous Tour
1993 Live In Tokyo Japan: Dangerous Tour
Michael Jackson Dangerous Tour feature
DISC 14
1996 Live In Sydney Australia: History Tour
DISC 15
1996 Live In Manila Filipina: History Tour
DISC 16-17
1996 Live In Seoul Korea: History Tour
DISC 18
1996 Live In Romania: History Tour
DISC 19
1997 Live in New Zealand: History Tour
DISC 20
1997 Live In Finland: History Tour
DISC 21
1997 Live in Sweden: History Tour
DISC 22
1997 Live. n Copenhagen: History Tour
DISC 23
1998 Live In Kuala Lumpur: History Tour
DISC 24
1999 Live In Taipei: History report
1999 Live. n Korea: Almsdeed Tour
DISC 25
1997 Live In Munich: History Tour
DISC 26
THE ONE
The 30th anniversary vocal concert
DISC 27
Bad tour unleashed volume
DISC 28
TOUR 1988
DISC 29
The Feature Of Stranger
Captain EO
DISC 30
MICHAEL JACKSON' MJ rise and decline
The giant star of MICHAEL JACKSON come down
DISC 31
private home movies the king of pop up close & personal
DISC 32
Moonwalker
DISC 33 - 34 (LPCD)
1979-2008, the first recorded 97 songs
DISC 35
Michael Jackson Commemorative Ceremony​

shipping​

shipping by EMS, shipping time need 6-8 days.​

 

[love is magical]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

technically they can sell it to anyone. it's just other people cannot release it. remember when BLS tried to sell Michael's art for $40-$50 Million to a private collector and that person asked for a release from MJ Estate?

Give me some credits please. I know the seller can sell to anyone. But, the Estate of Michael Jackson is the only party who can release it. The point remains. The seller will have a hell of hard time in finding a buyer.

 

[lom kit]

true.
but sony IS following that,
shine outside, crap inside.

 

[ivy]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

While I am extremely happy for the BAD25 release, I wonder why are the fans who are blamed for their attitude regarding the VHS release in the blu-ray era? Those who praise the officials and blame MJ's fans attitude, are you actually praising the VHS quality? Is that how much you are concerned about MJ's releases?

I personally have nothing against the VHS release! Let it be. BUT, I don't understand why the Estate needs so much time and effort to communicate with fans and give the reasons for such a release? On top of that people siding with them just make me sick when compared to how much MJ himself was demanding and perfectionist. I don't want to see MJ's perfectionism being ruined by carreless officials and so called fans stepping for them.

Well the only attitude issue that was mentioned why fans can't wait for more information before thinking they have all the answers.

Let me post something

Charles Thomson ?@CEThomson
@Chino7671 The clips released so far, though, don't look decent quality. They're blurrier than almost any bootleg you can find on YouTube.

2h Jeff Monachino ?@Chino7671
@CEThomson I suspect they have nothing to do with the final product. What I saw was not blurry.

Assume what this person Jeff says is true, than wouldn't it mean that we rushed to conclusions and did this debate and negativity for nothing?

There's nothing wrong in saying "this is bad quality" but I think we can wait to get more information and explanation before we come to final determinations about the project.

As I said before they can very well still be working on it, Spike Lee is still shooting his documentary, Michael album tracklist wasn't finalized till one month before the release. There's still a 4 month time period here.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

Well the only attitude issue that was mentioned why fans can't wait for more information before thinking they have all the answers.

Let me post something

Charles Thomson ?@CEThomson
@Chino7671 The clips released so far, though, don't look decent quality. They're blurrier than almost any bootleg you can find on YouTube.

2h Jeff Monachino ?@Chino7671
@CEThomson I suspect they have nothing to do with the final product. What I saw was not blurry.

Assume what this person Jeff says is true, than wouldn't it mean that we rushed to conclusions and did this debate and negativity for nothing?

There's nothing wrong in saying "this is bad quality" but I think we can wait to get more information and explanation before we come to final determinations about the project.

As I said before they can very well still be working on it, Spike Lee is still shooting his documentary, Michael album tracklist wasn't finalized till one month before the release. There's still a 4 month time period here.

All I am trying to say is that, as far as I can see, fans are extremely happy with BAD 25 before it has even been released.

Luckily this DVD thread is an apart thread where only the concerns about the video quality are raised. So all in all I don't think that the negativity prevails the positivity in general.

We already know that the sound is going to be perfect so we are not questioning that, hence we know that it's gonna be better than the bootleg quality.

However, the VHS quality is not something that can be ignored that easily. It is the fans' right to raise concerns based on science (=VHS technology), not on some rumors going on tweeter or other social networks. When you understand how VHS technology works, it is futile to expect anything close to DVD quality, unless we all watch that BAD Tour DVD on a maximum 30" TV set with cathodic tube.

 

[Hess]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I hope it's true and it's not blurry.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Bad Tour DVD (Disscussion Thread)

I hope it's true and it's not blurry.

Have you ever tried to magnify a small and low quality picture with few pixels in it?