Worst mass shooting in US since 9-11

[PurdyYungThang84]

Nobody ever said Muslims are by definition terrorist. I don't think even the most fervent Trump supporter would go that far. But can the teachings of Islam be used to justify terrorism? Absolutely YES. And you seem to admit as much when you say terrorists "hide behind" Islam when they slaughter people. If there was nothing in Islam that condoned the slaughter of civilians then they wouldn't be able to use it as cover for their actions.

Are you kidding??? The only reason Trump has any kind of sturdy following is because of the people who literally think "muslim" and "terrorist" are interchangeable words. I didn't see anyone post that here, but I meant America at large (I'm not sure of what the general international stance is on Islam so I didn't wanna really speak on it).

Yes, terrorists hide behind it Islam. The same way terrorist groups in America say that the Bible "tells them" to blow up women's clinics, churches (go figure), and that being a slave-holder is "godly" lol.

 

[LindavG]

Are you kidding??? The only reason Trump has any kind of sturdy following is because of the people who literally think "muslim" and "terrorist" are interchangeable words. I didn't see anyone post that here, but I meant America at large (I'm not sure of what the general international stance is on Islam so I didn't wanna really speak on it).

I think the kind of people that support Trump (or far-right nationalists in general) believe Muslims approve of terrorism or have the potential to be terrorist in the future. And I'm not defending that ridiculous notion in any way, just to be clear.

As for the general international stance on Muslims, the polling data we have so far shows that Westerners actually have a much more favourable view of Muslims than vice versa.

For example:

(source)

Yes, terrorist hide behind it Islam. The same way terrorist groups in America say that the Bible "tells them" to blow up women's clinics, churches (go figure), and that being a slaver-holder is "godly" lol.

The fact remains that Islamic terrorist organisations can back up most of what they do with scripture. The Quran does permit slavery, child marriages, stoning people to death for a range of offenses, committing violence in defense of the faith, etc. If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to provide you with the exact verses. To say that this is a "distortion" of Islam is just not true. You might say that this is not the right interpretation of the Quran or that the verses are no longer applicable but you can't say it has nothing to do with Islam.

I also feel that you dismiss people's genuine beliefs far too easily. There are large numbers of people in the Muslim world - especially in the ME, South Asia and Africa - who believe the Quran literally, who want to live under Sharia law, who believe apostates should be killed, who don't believe in gender equality, etc. Again, just some examples:

On the question whether suicide bombing in defense of Islam is often/sometimes justified, significant minorities agreed in Turkey (15%), Malaysia (18%), Bangladesh (26%), Afghanistan (39%), Jordan (15%), Egypt (29%) and Palestine (40%)(source).

Btw, I know your comment about American slave-holders being godly was meant as a joke but that's actually a perfectly valid interpretation of the Bible:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Abortion on the other hand is perfectly fine according to the Bible, at least if you think your wife has cheated on you. God himself is kind enough to give a recipe for 'bitter water' that will induce an abortion for wives who are suspected of adultery (Numbers 5:11-31). So that is one of those rare cases where Christians do actually use religion as a cover because they know their fellow Christians have probably never read the Bible anyway, lol.

 

[barbee0715]

Are you kidding??? The only reason Trump has any kind of sturdy following is because of the people who literally think "muslim" and "terrorist" are interchangeable words. I didn't see anyone post that here, but I meant America at large (I'm not sure of what the general international stance is on Islam so I didn't wanna really speak on it).

Yes, terrorists hide behind it Islam. The same way terrorist groups in America say that the Bible "tells them" to blow up women's clinics, churches (go figure), and that being a slave-holder is "godly" lol.

I agree with you. I seem to be totally alone against my family and "friends" and neighbors and the horrible things they're sending out via Facebook about Muslims and not just terrorists out to kill us all. I'm ashamed of us, and wish we could see more public service announcements like this.

And from Linda's post: (couldn't get multi-quote to work)

The fact remains that Islamic terrorist organisations can back up most of what they do with scripture. The Quran does permit slavery, child marriages, stoning people to death for a range of offenses, committing violence in defense of the faith, etc. If you don't believe me, I'll be happy to provide you with the exact verses. To say that this is a "distortion" of Islam is just not true. You might say that this is not the right interpretation of the Quran or that the verses are no longer applicable but you can't say it has nothing to do with Islam.

I also feel that you dismiss people's genuine beliefs far too easily. There are large numbers of people in the Muslim world - especially in the ME, South Asia and Africa - who believe the Quran literally, who want to live under Sharia law, who believe apostates should be killed, who don't believe in gender equality, etc. Again, just some examples:

And I fear there's a great number of people here in America that suddenly want to live under the old Testament laws-those that oppose pro-choice, the ones that oppose gay marriage, the ones that oppose homosexuality, period. They're more and more into the white supremacy all the time. We used to be safe and I felt safe because we had a definite division between Church and State-BUT ever since Obama was elected, I've seen this uprising-and the division completely disappearing-the State's laws are changing more and more every day and they're imposing these Christian values on us-and quoting those old Leviticus Bible verses while doing so-

Here in Texas they refused to honor gay marriages-this with the approval of our Attorney General, until the Feds came in and forced them-. Gay people could be arrested until just a few years ago when our laws finally got overturned by the Supreme Court. This year almost every single abortion clinic in Texas closed citing "Health Concerns" for the patients-Planned Parenthood is no longer funded. I guess they want women to go back to the old clothes hanger abortion days.

I may be a Christian but I don't believe in these very old Bible laws-I want civil rights for all. I may be a Christian but I don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, or that evangelical preacher that said all homosexuals should be shot by firing squad, or my governor and lt. governor who said "you reap what you sow" in response to the Orlando shooting. I think most Muslims at least in America, don't want Sharia law either.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

It seems most if not all those people from that video are American citizens, they wouldn't have all those priviledges of being themselves if they lived in the ME, the African and Asian Muslim parts in the world. I understand why the most moderate ones wouldn't want to be lumped with the extremists but it bothers some of these moderates, islam apologists, etc take away responsability the religion has when it's taken to the extreme saying it has nothing to do with Islam when there scripture passages backing the extremists doings.

Even Maajid Nawaz acknoledged there are atheists, liberals (regressive leftists) defending Islamists/Islamism (anyone who wants to impose any version of Islam) and regressive values in the name of cultural tolerance. If we are truly liberals, all of us should stand for liberal values and calling out people and ideologies threatening basic human rights.

 

[HIStory]

And I fear there's a great number of people here in America that suddenly want to live under the old Testament laws-those that oppose pro-choice, the ones that oppose gay marriage, the ones that oppose homosexuality, period. They're more and more into the white supremacy all the time. We used to be safe and I felt safe because we had a definite division between Church and State-BUT ever since Obama was elected, I've seen this uprising-and the division completely disappearing-the State's laws are changing more and more every day and they're imposing these Christian values on us-and quoting those old Leviticus Bible verses while doing so-

Here in Texas they refused to honor gay marriages-this with the approval of our Attorney General, until the Feds came in and forced them-. Gay people could be arrested until just a few years ago when our laws finally got overturned by the Supreme Court. This year almost every single abortion clinic in Texas closed citing "Health Concerns" for the patients-Planned Parenthood is no longer funded. I guess they want women to go back to the old clothes hanger abortion days.

I may be a Christian but I don't believe in these very old Bible laws-I want civil rights for all. I may be a Christian but I don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, or that evangelical preacher that said all homosexuals should be shot by firing squad, or my governor and lt. governor who said "you reap what you sow" in response to the Orlando shooting. I think most Muslims at least in America, don't want Sharia law either.

There are differences, major differences, between Christianity and Islam - and I am saying that as an atheist.

Christianity is not a political religion. I am not talking about what it was used for in history because of course then it was used for political aspirations, power and is still being used by some. But the fact is there is no real basis of that in the Bible. Jesus was not a politician. Jesus never killed anyone. Jesus did not order his followers to gain political or territorial power. Jesus himself was rather apolitical who distanced himself from politics and power struggles (eg. "“Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.&#8221.

Muhammad on the other hand was a politician of his time and a warlord. He killed people. He massacred tribes. He ordered his followers to massacre tribes. He was involved in power struggles. Sharia isn't just law for those who voluntarily put it upon themselves because they are Muslims but intended state law that should be imposed on everyone, including people who are not Muslims and do not believe in it. There are laws within it that tell how to treat non-Muslims under Sharia law (Jews and Chrsitians are second class citizens but can stay alive if they pay an extra tax, everyone else should be forced to leave the land or be killed). You will not find such passages in the New Testament. In terms of laws and rules Christianity only deals with those people who are Christians, it doesn't impose the faith and its rules on those who aren't, nor does it have territorial or political aspirations. Yes, in practice that wasn't always the case, but I am strictly talking about what is in the Bible vs. what is in the Quran and the Hadith now.

And that is a problem because while there are Christians who try to use Christianty for gaining or maintaing political power and in the past there were conquests in the name of Christianity and horrible attrocities committed in its name while forcing Christianity on others, but there is no real basis of that in the Bible. Jesus never did that and never ordered his followers to do that. He was basically an apolitical hippie of his time. The problem with Islam is that Muhammad on the other hand was a politician and a warlord and did all those attrocities himself and that is why it so much more difficult thing to argue against such attrocities from a scriptural POV in Islam than in Christianity.

Christianity basically is just a religion while Islam is so much more than that. It's also a political system and a political ideology. Sharia is a state law, not just a law that just individual believers submit themselves to. A Caliphate is a political system based on Islamic law. There are no such political aspirations in Christianity.

This makes the whole situation with Islam so much more difficult IMO.

 

[KOPV]

The Quran, Torah, and the Bible ALL have connections to Slavery and portions that would support such type acts.. The issue that is there is more so the indoctrination by cults that use the Quran for power. The religion itself should not be blamed because ALL religions can, have, and are used for power and political purposes.. The average believer is NOT what we see on TV... In fact this weekend on CNN I watched an interview with a publicly gay Imam (Islamic Worship leader).

There are millions of progressive Islamic people around the world.. We need to remember these dictators for several years harbored money and prevented the people from knowing anything besides what they (in power) were teaching... Until the internet which created an awakening to many people that were basically unknowing slaves.. This is where we got uprisings.

There are far more Islamic people fighting against Terrorists than Islamic Terrorists.. It' a big cluster f***...

*There are a large people fighting against them
* Small group of young people that are taking advantage of no real power in countries and basically becoming gangs.. (stealing/selling/and trying to live large)
* large group that just tries to stay out of all the commotion and survive by migrating away
* thousands of terrorists that are still trying to get power

That is what is going on IN Islamic countries... Lets keep in mind that there are more Islamic people dying fighting against terrorist based regimes than any other type of people out there.. More than American troops, more than the # of terrorists... They have been a HUGE casualty to our world.

In no way would that means that any life is worth more than others.. a life lost is a life lost!

 

[LindavG]

The Quran, Torah, and the Bible ALL have connections to Slavery and portions that would support such type acts.. The issue that is there is more so the indoctrination by cults that use the Quran for power. The religion itself should not be blamed because ALL religions can, have, and are used for power and political purposes..

I liked the latter part of your post but as an atheist, I just don't accept this ^ logic. If a religion is used for power and political purposes, then the teachings of that religion should especially be scrutinised. Religious fundamentalism would not be such a problem if the fundamentals of religion were good. If the Quran and Torah and Bible were all about universal love and peace and tolerance, the world would be a very different place today. But unfortunately, as you said, all of these books support slavery so it's not a surprise that American slaveholders believed themselves to be moral and godly and ISIS is proudly flaunting its 'slave market' on social media. As Islamic State sympathisers note quite correctly, you cannot condemn slavery while at the same time believe that the Quran is the literal, perfect and eternal Word of God. Mohammed himself owned slaves. So either you admit that the Quran (or Bible or Torah) is wrong on this topic or you approve of slavery. Anything else is intellectually dishonest. And that's usually the only argument they have in their defense because from an objective pov, anyone can see the moral depravity of slavery.

 

[KOPV]

When I say religion should not be blamed, I mean that in the sense.. Either blame all religious books or non.. We can't say the quran (this and that) and not say the others do the same..

It's not what we generally get, an extremist that is Christian for example I usually given the excuse of mental illness while the media tries anything to discredit mental illness when its a single muslim doing something extreme..

The Old Testimate alone for example, we all know the hate it teaches... But we (as a whole) give it a pass but keep it as scripture.. than point the finger at Mohammad..

Yes these books have been used for evil... But people need to be held accountable for the actions without stamping a religion with an image that is not the generl demographic of what an islam (for this example is)...

Omar had no affiliation to terrorist groups to public knowledge. Just used terrorist group names as an excuse to get world wide attention.. He was a natural born American citizen, frequented gay clubs, and possibly could have been gay.. which speaks against traditional Islamic/Christian/Jewish teachings.. From what we see he was not even that "religious"... BUT when someone can easily put labels on themselves for attention they can and he did..

a middle eastern adopted at birth to a jewish family could have said/done the same thing and still have the media and general public associating him to ISIS.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Moderate Muslims don't do themselves any favor by denying the problem and refusing to name the evil like it is being defensive on the matter. People adhered to the other Abrahamanic religions have committed attrocious evils in the name of their faith but right now, Islamist Jihadists represent a huge problem all over the world, ISIS is threatening now to Latin America in general.

 

[LindavG]

When I say religion should not be blamed, I mean that in the sense.. Either blame all religious books or non.. We can't say the quran (this and that) and not say the others do the same..

It's not what we generally get, an extremist that is Christian for example I usually given the excuse of mental illness while the media tries anything to discredit mental illness when its a single muslim doing something extreme..

All the articles I have read about Omar Mateen mention that he was mentally unstable. That was clearly a factor. But he also had a history of religious extremism going back several years (which is why he was investigated by the FBI) so you can't just dismiss this as a crazy guy who snapped.

The Old Testimate alone for example, we all know the hate it teaches... But we (as a whole) give it a pass but keep it as scripture.. than point the finger at Mohammad..

Christians believe the Old Testament laws were superseded by Christ:

Question: "Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?"

Answer: The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

(source)

And Jesus is a lot gentler than the god of the Old Testament ("eye for an eye" vs "turn the other cheek", stoning for numerous offenses vs "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"). Jews believe the OT laws were only binding for a particular time, which is why they're not stoning people for adultery today. So I don't think the comparison with Mohammed in Islam is quite accurate.

That said, it's true that conservative Christians love to cherry pick verses from the OT when it's convenient for them. They love to quote Leviticus when it comes to homosexuality but ignore all the other admonitions in the very same book, such as the death penalty for blasphemers/spiritualists/adulterers, not eating pork or shellfish, not trimming hair or beard, not wearing different fabrics, etc. Note also that Jesus himself never mentioned homosexuality but did speak out against divorce but you never see "family values Christians" protesting to make divorce illegal. Funny how that works. Btw, Leviticus is truly a nasty piece of work. If anyone can read that and still believe God is all-loving and all-good he is suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance, lol.

Yes these books have been used for evil... But people need to be held accountable for the actions without stamping a religion with an image that is not the generl demographic of what an islam (for this example is)...

I don't think religion can be let off the hook that easily. When you are brainwashed from birth to believe that a certain book is holy and must be obeyed to the letter lest you burn in hell for eternity, to what extent can a mentally unstable person be held accountable for doing what he believes the book orders him to do? There is no doubt in my mind that suicide bombers genuinely believe paradise is waiting for them at the other side, no matter how misguided that belief is.

Omar had no affiliation to terrorist groups to public knowledge. Just used terrorist group names as an excuse to get world wide attention.. He was a natural born American citizen, frequented gay clubs, and possibly could have been gay.. which speaks against traditional Islamic/Christian/Jewish teachings.. From what we see he was not even that "religious"... BUT when someone can easily put labels on themselves for attention they can and he did..

a middle eastern adopted at birth to a jewish family could have said/done the same thing and still have the media and general public associating him to ISIS.

Omar had been under investigation by the FBI because he was making terroristic threats in the past. He pulled a knife on someone when he felt his religion was insulted. His father made positive comments about the Taliban. There was enough of a history there to conclude this guy was a religious extremist aside from being mentally ill. And now you are saying he couldn't have been a "real Muslim" because he frequented gay clubs whereas in your previous post you mentioned a gay Imam as an example of Muslim diversity?

The public is associating him to ISIS because he pledged allegiance to ISIS during the attack. It's as simple as that.

 

[HIStory]

When I say religion should not be blamed, I mean that in the sense.. Either blame all religious books or non.. We can't say the quran (this and that) and not say the others do the same..

It's not what we generally get, an extremist that is Christian for example I usually given the excuse of mental illness while the media tries anything to discredit mental illness when its a single muslim doing something extreme..

The Old Testimate alone for example, we all know the hate it teaches... But we (as a whole) give it a pass but keep it as scripture.. than point the finger at Mohammad..

Yes these books have been used for evil... But people need to be held accountable for the actions without stamping a religion with an image that is not the generl demographic of what an islam (for this example is)...

Omar had no affiliation to terrorist groups to public knowledge. Just used terrorist group names as an excuse to get world wide attention.. He was a natural born American citizen, frequented gay clubs, and possibly could have been gay.. which speaks against traditional Islamic/Christian/Jewish teachings.. From what we see he was not even that "religious"... BUT when someone can easily put labels on themselves for attention they can and he did..

a middle eastern adopted at birth to a jewish family could have said/done the same thing and still have the media and general public associating him to ISIS.

You now keep repeating this as a mantra, when all of your points have been refuted over and over again, starting with the false claim that we only criticize Islam, but not Christianity. In fact, the atheist thread is full of criticism of Christianity by all three of us who mainly debate with you here. And we also criticize people who commit terrorist acts in the name Christianity, but the fact is that is rare compared to Islamic terror. As for Omer not being Muslim, that was addressed too. There are signs of a religious angle to what he did, no matter how hard you try to deny it.

 

[KOPV]

^ Linda you must relies how many middle easterns are investigated by FBI since 9/11 right? I am sure people I know.. Who knows maybe even I have been looked at by the FBI simply because of race and ethnic connection to islam.. Even though I am not muslim!

I can't tell you enough the paranoia within the community since 9/11 of being watched, listened to, and fallowed by FBI.. It's a normal topic of conversation within groups of Islamic people..

And not by me, but I have seen it happen when someone is bullied to the point of basically making a terrorist threat to be left alone... even at young elementary school age..

People do this in all forms all the time... You are Sicilian you say you're associated with the mafia to be left alone.. or say "My Uncle Vinnie will gut you If you keep f*** with me". That type stuff! That is a threat made... and if an arab says a threat (depending on specific circumstances) COULD be looked at so serious that FBI could look at them and have no truth to it..

 

[KOPV]

Respect - I am saying we do not have enough facts to say he had any connection to a terrorist organization.. If you have anything to refute that aside from him saying it please share.. Because evidence is showing that he said that to scare/threaten people.. with no actual ties to Terrorist organizations..

He has even mentioned ties to groups that appose each other which makes NO sense.. The only sense than can be made by that is he had no ties..but knew people would fear if he stated so. How many times have I heard Italians say they have ties to the Mob whenthe most “Italian” thing about them is they eat Pizza..

I am saying Is evidence show he made sh* * up to be taken seriously.. Gave himself ties to organizations that (from what has been reported o far) he has no connections to.

 

[HIStory]

Respect - I am saying we do not have enough facts to say he had any connection to a terrorist organization.. If you have anything to refute that aside from him saying it please share.. Because evidence is showing that he said that to scare/threaten people.. with no actual ties to Terrorist organizations..

He has even mentioned ties to groups that appose each other which makes NO sense.. The only sense than can be made by that is he had no ties..but knew people would fear if he stated so. How many times have I heard Italians say they have ties to the Mob whenthe most “Italian” thing about them is they eat Pizza..

I am saying Is evidence show he made sh* * up to be taken seriously.. Gave himself ties to organizations that (from what has been reported o far) he has no connections to.

But this is a deflection. No one said he had actual ties with terrorist organizations. But that doesn't mean he did not have a religious motive. By all signs religion was a part of the equation, regardless of actual ties or not. It was listed several times by both Linda and me, yet you keep going back to this fallacy that only an actual connection with terrorist groups means a religious motive.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

ISIS itself attributed the Orlando massacre, it allows lone worlves like Omar to act on its behalf. If people pledge alliance to ISIS, they don't have to ask for permition to attribute the attacks to the organization itself.

 

[LindavG]

Respect - I am saying we do not have enough facts to say he had any connection to a terrorist organization.. If you have anything to refute that aside from him saying it please share.. Because evidence is showing that he said that to scare/threaten people.. with no actual ties to Terrorist organizations..

He has even mentioned ties to groups that appose each other which makes NO sense.. The only sense than can be made by that is he had no ties..but knew people would fear if he stated so. How many times have I heard Italians say they have ties to the Mob whenthe most “Italian” thing about them is they eat Pizza..

I am saying Is evidence show he made sh* * up to be taken seriously.. Gave himself ties to organizations that (from what has been reported o far) he has no connections to.

That's not how the Islamic State operates. IS has specifically called on Muslims in the West to carry out lone wolf attacks in their name. That's exactly what Omar Mateen did and IS then claimed the attack. I'm not sure what else you need to establish "ties" between them. It's not like potential terrorists have to travel to Syria to get an official IS certificate before they are part of the organisation, lol.

And the difference between this guy and faux Italians who brag about being part of the mob is that this guy murdered 49 people while calling himself an "Islamic warrior". You are really grasping at straws here.

 

[KOPV]

But this is a deflection. No one said he had actual ties with terrorist organizations. But that doesn't mean he did not have a religious motive. By all signs religion was a part of the equation, regardless of actual ties or not. It was listed several times by both Linda and me, yet you keep going back to this fallacy that only an actual connection with terrorist groups means a religious motive.

Majority of hate crimes are religious inspired.. I agree with that.. I am not arguing that point if you think I am!

 

[KOPV]

ISIS itself attributed the Orlando massacre, it allows lone worlves like Omar to act on its behalf. If people pledge alliance to ISIS, they don't have to ask for permition to attribute the attacks to the organization itself.

Snow, as well as anybody else.. Maybe it's the fact I pay attention to this stuff not when it JUST matters on a global scale but some are not getting how they play the game which goes both ways..

terrorist cells have taken credit for many things they had no idea about before the press put it out there... If you are trying to look like the scariest guy out there, you claim an action you did not do.. It's gang lifes unspoken move..

it happens ALLLL the time.. You guys seriously act like I'm ignorant to how things work! I've dealt with type of sh** my whole life.. People I knew died because of terrorism! My dad is IN Libya right now... I have family in the streets and I hear what's going on..

And just to clarify my family nor I have association to terrorists.. Most actually migrate around Libya and Tunisia to stay safe..

 

[LindavG]

Interesting article by Maajid Nawaz: Here's How Islamists and the Far Right Feed Off Each Other

Let us begin with Orlando. Immediately, ideological talking points became the predictable standard response from both sides to the tragedy. For Islamists, the regressive left and some of their supporters among liberals, Omar Mateen was judged a madman, a loner, a traumatized Afghan angered about American foreign policy in his ancestral home, a confused and a closeted gay man in denial. Of course, they insist that he also should not have had such a ready access to guns.

Many also focused on the fact that Mateen did not appear devout in the traditional religious sense, thus arguing the slaughter had nothing to do with Islam. As well as resting on a fundamental misunderstanding of the process of radicalization, this approach contained serious logical errors. We liberals cannot simultaneously oppose profiling as I do then say Mateen couldn’t be radicalized because he "didn’t fit the profile.” Likewise, we can’t also claim that jihadism has “nothing to do with Islam” if suspects must be devout for us to consider them jihadists in the first instance.

It was, for this camp, anything but a problem of Islamist radicalization, of religious fundamentalist shame around gay sex, and of deeply entrenched cultural intolerance. To dare suggest such a thing would be seen to be aiding the narrative of the opposing conservative camp, and that would be akin to scoring liberal and Muslim own-goals against our “victim” scorecard. President Barack Obama even entered the fray, making remarks to reassert why he would not be naming the ideology Islamism.

And for the far-right, anti-Muslim bigots and some of their populist-right supporters among conservatives, the problem in Orlando was not mental health, the problem was not the very same homophobia promoted for years by some within their own ranks, and the problem was certainly not gun laws. No, Omar Mateen was nothing but a Muslim terrorist and to suggest anything else was to apologize for jihadist terror.

Neither camp stepped back from their own dogma to consider that mental health, poor social integration, closeted homophobia, Islamist radicalization and the ability of civilian extremists with all the above problems to access assault rifles after they are already suspected of links to terrorism, are not mutually exclusive. Far from it. Individual radicalization cannot be boxed into neat fitting ideological categories. It was probably always a mixture of all those reasons. But to concede such a thing would be to concede some points to the “other,”and a “victim” must never do that, for it lets the side down. It betrays the tribe.

Orlando would have been sufficient to make the point. But by serving as its mirror opposite, the brutal killing of Jo Cox in Britain hammered the same lesson home in a way that is too poignant to ignore.

Here, Islamists, the regressive left and their liberal sympathizers, in an eerie and Orwellian backflip, traded places with the far-right, anti-Muslim bigots and their populist-right supporters. Suddenly, the same group among Muslims and the Left who had argued so vociferously that Omar Mateen had been nothing but a loner with mental health problems, were arguing that Thomas Mair was a neo-Nazi ideologue and pointing to why the ideology of white supremacism must be challenged wherever it is found.

Talk of mental health problems and foreign policy grievances gave way to pious pronouncements about the scourge of racism and xenophobia, and questions around why “white people” are never deemed terrorists by mainstream media, as if our entire history of Irish Republican terrorism and many other such examples, hadn’t happened at all.

Not to be outdone, in the case of Thomas Mair the far-right, anti-Muslim bigots and many of their populist-right supporters developed overnight a newly discovered yet profound awareness of mental health problems, social isolation and the economic grievance narrative around jobs being lost “to foreigners.” For them, it was anything but white supremacist ideology.

Of course, as in the case of Omar Mateen, the truth probably lies in a mixture of all of these factors. As I’ve been arguing for years, radicalization occurs due to a combination of perceived grievances, an identity crisis, charismatic recruiters and an ideology, and in all cases probably involves mental trauma

 

[Darth Sidious]

A white guy called Aaron driver was killed by police before he could do his attack and the press were quick to call out his race. Some articles even call out his whiteness in the titles, imagine doing that to a brown guy. Related, omar's taliban supporting father was at a hilary rally. Vote trump!