Worst mass shooting in US since 9-11

I say he was not a practicing muslim because of what has come out about his life already.. A Practicing Muslim does not drink, and live the life style he did.. any religious extremist groups, have it to be ISIS or KKK they heavily fallow what they BELIEVE the religion is about..

Do you have the same standards for other religions? Is a Christian who eats shrimp not a real Christian? Is a Jew who doesn't wear the kippah not a real Jew? This man was raised in a conservative Muslim family, went to the local Islamic center regularly, considered himself a Muslim and pledged allegiance to the Islamic State. It's unfortunate for decent and kind Muslims everywhere that this man claims to represent their religion but it is what it is.

Besides, virulent homophobia to the point of wishing punishment or death upon gays is hardly an extreme view within Muslim communities, even in the West. According to a recent ICM poll, 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal (source). If you genuinely cared about the safety of the LGBT community and the integration of Muslims within Western societies - as I do as a liberal humanist - you would not deny this but support progressive Muslims such as Maajid Nawaz and Hasan Minhaj in their efforts to make a more tolerant version of Islam prevail. Nothing is going to change unless we acknowledge the problem.

It has been also coming out that he (the shooter) could have led a secret gay lifestyle, even his ex wife stating that he had "gay tendencies"... Gay bar attendies stating he would go to gay clubs and complain about his father... ie. why I say this screams a SELF HATE crime..

If it was a self-hate crime then it is even more likely that he was deeply religious. There is a strong connection between religious fundamentalism and suppressed sexuality.

and Linda I don't think you are really in position to teach me what a muslim is, look like, or make a comment like I am do not get what a terrorist may not look like.. My name is Rasheed! No not muslim, but from an Islamic culture and lived in an Islamic country..

So you're saying that only Muslims should get to decide who a "real" Muslim is? How convenient. From the article above (from someone called Mohammed who speaks Arabic so I guess that makes it more legitimate) there are plenty of Muslims who are more than willing to embrace the attacker as a fellow Muslim. If you've lived in an Islamic country then you know this too.
 
Gun control action is long overdue. There comes a point when there are too many "moments of silence," when we should not be silent at all about these massacres. I was at Virginia Tech during the massacre. You'd think that after that -- strong action would be taken, but no, then there was Sandyhook, and Aurora, and Lafayette, Louisiana, and more, and more. At the time the Second Amendment was written, people might have muskets, that took awhile to load. The writers of the Second Amendment couldn't possibly have previewed a weapon that could fire three hundred bullets in just minutes. The AR-15 is a military weapon with only one purpose -- killing a lot of people. There is no reason for private citizens to have such a weapon. In the U.S. we have by far the biggest number of fatalities by gun. Australia enacted strict gun regulations in the mid-nineties, and hasn't had a mass-shooting since. If Orlando isn't a wake-up call, I have no idea what would be.

EXACTLY. Honestly, how the hell nothing happened after Sandy Hook where multiple innocent children were slaughtered is completely bewildering.

Australian comedian Jim Jefferies sums up the topic of gun control in America up so so so well. If you haven't watched this you really should, there's swearing in it but he's hilarious. One of my favourite comedians.
 
Do you have the same standards for other religions? Is a Christian who eats shrimp not a real Christian? Is a Jew who doesn't wear the kippah not a real Jew? This man was raised in a conservative Muslim family, went to the local Islamic center regularly, considered himself a Muslim and pledged allegiance to the Islamic State. It's unfortunate for decent and kind Muslims everywhere that this man claims to represent their religion but it is what it is.

Besides, virulent homophobia to the point of wishing punishment or death upon gays is hardly an extreme view within Muslim communities, even in the West. According to a recent ICM poll, 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal (source). If you genuinely cared about the safety of the LGBT community and the integration of Muslims within Western societies - as I do as a liberal humanist - you would not deny this but support progressive Muslims such as Maajid Nawaz and Hasan Minhaj in their efforts to make a more tolerant version of Islam prevail. Nothing is going to change unless we acknowledge the problem.



If it was a self-hate crime then it is even more likely that he was deeply religious. There is a strong connection between religious fundamentalism and suppressed sexuality.



So you're saying that only Muslims should get to decide who a "real" Muslim is? How convenient. From the article above (from someone called Mohammed who speaks Arabic so I guess that makes it more legitimate) there are plenty of Muslims who are more than willing to embrace the attacker as a fellow Muslim. If you've lived in an Islamic country then you know this too.


Linda you are taking a casual believers, serious followers, and extremists and mixing them together as one in the same... This Omar guy may have been a casual muslim in the sense of the words... But a casual believer does not do extreme actions because of a religion. take your next door neighbor for example, he/she may believe in the bible, but parties, has sex pre marital sex, and does not go to church... THIS person is not going to be the one doing an EXTREME action for the same of religion..

And no Linda as you twist my words that saying only Muslims can decide who a "real" Muslim is exactly the lack of detail you are missing with this issue as you are with me.. I specifically stated I am not muslim.

homophobia comes in all forms.. When I've gone to pride (for example) I only saw "Christian" picketers calling people abominations, and telling them they will burn in hell...

There is a lot more than a religious issue that went on inFlorida


Don't you forget there are people every day committing suicide because of how EVERY religion outcasts them in some way.. The Bible calls Homosexuality an abomination.. just to mention ONE unkind out casting wordage from the bible towards the gay community.

Let me ask you...Do you consider members of the KKK Christian?


 
Linda you are taking a casual believers, serious followers, and extremists and mixing them together as one in the same... This Omar guy may have been a casual muslim in the sense of the words... But a casual believer does not do extreme actions because of a religion. take your next door neighbor for example, he/she may believe in the bible, but parties, has sex pre marital sex, and does not go to church... THIS person is not going to be the one doing an EXTREME action for the same of religion..

If you are saying that religion is not the only reason he committed this attack then I agree but it was certainly a factor.

And no Linda as you twist my words that saying only Muslims can decide who a "real" Muslim is exactly the lack of detail you are missing with this issue as you are with me.. I specifically stated I am not muslim.

But you did state that your name is Rasheed and therefore you are better able to determine who is a real Muslim and who is not than me, lol. I don't know what it's like in Arizona but Muslims aren't exactly an exotic species where I'm from. I've worked with them, lived with them, befriended them, argued with them, went to mosque with them, even picked up a little Turkish and Arabic. I know more practising Muslims than I do Christians.

homophobia comes in all forms.. When I've gone to pride (for example) I only saw "Christian" picketers calling people abominations, and telling them they will burn in hell...

That's because the US has a large evangelical Christian community and only 1% Muslims. Of course you're going to find more homophobic Christians than Muslims there. The Old Testament requires the death penalty for homosexuality - although the OT requires a lot of things Christians these days don't seem too concerned with. But if you are seriously going to argue that homophobia in the West is just as bad as in Islamic countries you're just being dishonest. Try having a Gay Pride parade in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Don't you forget there are people every day committing suicide because of how EVERY religion outcasts them in some way.. The Bible calls Homosexuality an abomination.. just to mention ONE unkind out casting wordage from the bible towards the gay community.


Yes. And your point is? I'm an atheist, you won't hear me defending Christianity and its more barbaric parts. I will say though that many Christians have learned to ignore the more offensive parts of the Bible. There are plenty of Christian churches that actually welcome gay weddings. Is there a single sect in Islam that offers the same?

Let me ask you...Do you consider members of the KKK Christian?

Yes. Do I think in modern form it is in any way equivalent to Islamic terrorist organisations like Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra or ISIS, don't make me laugh.
 
As far as I'm concerned, I've notice people from all religions cherry pick their holy books, decide what to follow and what to ignore given their convenience. If people believe in Yahweh, Jesus, The Holy Ghost, etc and consider the Bible as their holy book, they are part of any Christian denomination depending where they're from, if their holy book is the Torah, they're Jewish. But if they believe in Allah, Muhammad and they consider as their holy book the Qur'an, they are Muslims as far as I'm concerned.

Your argument is a logical fallacy, KOPV:

Logical+Fallacy+17+-+No+True+Scotsman.png
 
My basic point is Islam or people of that faith should not be looked down upon because of HIS actions. I see people even here attacking Islam as a religion raise of what he did... just days ago we as a nation celebrate the life of an Islamic man as he passes because he was considered an American hero... people don't use him as an example of the relgion.. only those who do wrong..

That is where I'm at with this.. we hardly ever call "christian" people extremist or attack the religion when someone that may have claimed to be a part of Christianity does something crazy... we've had serial killers, people that have done mass murders, and various wreak all kinds of "terror"..

Just the bias attack on a race, religion, or culture gets to me..
 
Elite Globalist are letting the terrorist attacks on purpose.
This is part of their whole conflict-resolution plan. They cause the conflict and the resolution is 'gun' control.
They want to take away your guns, so you have no means of defending yourself against martial law or other evil planned events.
People need to unite in their communities.

^^^

WTF??? :scratch:


I came really close to making a bad joke about that comment above last night, but glad I didn't have time, because MJJC might have been reporting me to the FBI by now.



Religion is a part of it. People have also criticized fundamentalist Christianity in this thread, even though this crime wasn't committed by a Christian. But when people turn a blind eye on the religious aspect, whether it is Christian, Muslim or anything else, then they are never going to be able to honestly face certain issues and problems. Religious fundamentalism (both Christian and Muslim) DOES contribute to homophobia. No need to pay down that aspect.

There is a lot more than a religious issue that went on in Florida


Don't you forget there are people every day committing suicide because of how EVERY religion outcasts them in some way.. The Bible calls Homosexuality an abomination.. just to mention ONE unkind out casting wordage from the bible towards the gay community.

My basic point is Islam or people of that faith should not be looked down upon because of HIS actions. I see people even here attacking Islam as a religion raise of what he did... just days ago we as a nation celebrate the life of an Islamic man as he passes because he was considered an American hero... people don't use him as an example of the relgion.. only those who do wrong..

That is where I'm at with this.. we hardly ever call "christian" people extremist or attack the religion when someone that may have claimed to be a part of Christianity does something crazy... we've had serial killers, people that have done mass murders, and various wreak all kinds of "terror"..

Just the bias attack on a race, religion, or culture gets to me..
I agree and also agree that there is a huge difference between the casual believer, the follower, and the extremist. Just yesterday, I saw a video on the news of a Baptist pastor in Sacramento-praising the murder of the LGBT people in Orlando, and that he was just sorry that it was not all of the 'pedophiles.'
He also said he thought the FBI should hunt down every last one of these 'pedophiles' and execute them by firing squad.

Again, WTF? First it's amazing to me that it's 2016, and people are still confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. That is what people were saying back in the 70's-but now? And then, execute them all?
It makes me ashamed to be a Christian, but apparently, if we are supposed to be following the Bible as written, then I'm a bad one. I don't think I'm an atheist, but I do believe that all Christians, Muslims, and Jews believe in the same God, and they are just following (sometimes way too crazy zealously) the man made word of the followers of the Messiah of that certain religion. I don't think ANY religion is the right way or hell. And when you kill (or even bad mouth people) in the name of God, you are disrespecting God.
I don't remember any fire and brimstone speeches growing up-all I remember is you're supposed to love, honor, respect, and accept your fellow man. That's what I was already taught by my parents-I didn't realize there were such differences and extremes until I became an adult and started working and met diverse people.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan;4152027 said:



As an Arab, the Middle East’s reaction to Orlando left me speechless…




By Mohammed Rady


Recently, a devastating terrorist attack took place in Orlando, where 49 innocent people were murdered. Surely, the majority of people in the Arab world condemn this atrocious act of violence? The most fatal shooting in recent American history cannot possibly be celebrated by such a large number of peace-loving people who, after all, mostly condemn the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam by groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, right? Right?
Wrong.
As a bilingual Arabic and English speaker from the Middle East, I took the liberty of browsing through Arabic news pages on Facebook earlier today; namely Al Jazeera, Al-Arabiya, BBC Arabic and a number of Egyptian news outlets to gauge how the Arab world was responding to the Orlando shooting. The results were disappointing, alarming, and depressing to say the least. Each page’s comment section was inundated with posts showing sympathy towards the attacker, praising him for his actions and wishing death upon members of the international LGBT community. Comments ranged from jokes about the incident and how “the gays had it coming,” to long du’as (religious supplications), wishing death upon gays and lesbians, as well as asking God to grant the killer “the highest place in paradise.” I considered collecting screenshots of these comments to raise awareness about the amount of hatred towards the gay community in the Middle East, but it soon dawned on me that such a task would be impossible.
There were simply too many hateful comments, with thousands celebrating the attack, from Tunisia to Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. It was only through deep digging that a single person who expressed so much as a shred of sympathy to the victims and their families, or even condemned the blatant massacre that took place could be found. If you don’t speak Arabic, visit Al Jazeera’s Facebook page and scroll down until you see a post about the Orlando attack and note what the top three “reactions” (newly added Facebook feature) are.
Shocked? So am I. It is truly saddening and disturbing to see that such a large number of social media users in the Arab world who voice their opinions on the internet openly and unapologetically condone the killing of innocents because of their sexual orientation. Conversely, you may argue that as a majority of Al Jazeera viewers and readers are Islamist sympathizers, it is no surprise that they would be homophobic, and you would be right. But bear in mind that this also applies to outlets such as the BBC and Al Arabiya, whose followers you may assume are anti-Islamist because of their condemnation of ISIS. Egyptian news outlets generally have a large pro-Sisi following, and one might be led to think that their anti-brotherhood and anti-Islamism stance means that they condemn acts of terror against members of the LGBT community. Clearly, this is not the case.
The implications of this are far worse and much more far-reaching than one might initially consider. It has now become commonplace in the Arab world to wish death upon minorities and celebrate their murders. Gays, Christians, Jews, atheists, apostates, heterodox Muslims, liberal Muslims, and secularists are seen as subhuman. Celebrating their deaths is now a norm. At worst, attacks such as the Orlando shooting are met with praise, and at best silence.
Members of the left who claim such terrorism has nothing to do with Islam need to become aware of the issue at hand that is Islamism, and understand the ramifications of evading discussions on it. The Arab world’s moral collapse is the result of decades of fundamentalist Wahhabi indoctrination across the Muslim world which has culminated in the recent rise of Islamic terrorism. Reform must come from within Muslim communities – I can’t stress this enough. An open and frank discussion on the current understanding and interpretation of Islam is much needed. Yes, it’s great to see Muslims in the west condemning the attack and voicing solidarity with the victims and their families, but there still remains a long way to go. The Muslim world, particularly the Middle East and North Africa, has become rife with followers of either Arab nationalist anti-west ideologies, or Islamism and Wahhabism, both of which are cesspools for hate.
When the standard response from a lot of liberals is “Christians can be homophobic too” and “this has nothing to do with Islam” right after a terrorist attack where 49 people were killed because of religious fundamentalism, then a frank discussion is desperately needed. No favors are done by denying the presence of homophobia in Muslim communities and repeating far right Islamist rhetoric and propaganda. This only worsens an already bad situation, and the profundity of the consequences this attitude engenders towards Islamic fundamentalism must be recognized. Ignoring Islamic fundamentalism only makes the far right stronger, and its rise will be immediately followed by the persecution of the minorities whose rights the left purports to protect. This makes it harder not only for the LGBT community in the Middle East, but also other minorities and liberal and secular Muslims who fight for change on a daily basis in the Arab world.

http://www.arabhumanists.org/arab-reaction-orlando-depressing/

I wish there were more people like the author of this article who in the Arab world are willing to face the negative aspects of Islam. Becoming defensive about Islam and denying the religion's negative aspects will never be a part of the solution, it will never even contribute to an honest dialogue about the problem.


KOPV;4152073 said:
That is where I'm at with this.. we hardly ever call "christian" people extremist or attack the religion when someone that may have claimed to be a part of Christianity does something crazy... we've had serial killers, people that have done mass murders, and various wreak all kinds of "terror"..

Just the bias attack on a race, religion, or culture gets to me..

It is true that not only Islam has hateful things in its scriptures against gay people but also Christianity and Judaism. Which we all admitted here and all pointed out that that's a problem too and that too contributes to the homophobia that exists in the world. But you are the only one who is being defensive about one particular religion here - Islam - and that by pointing fingers at other religions "but they too..." as if that makes Islam homophobia somehow OK.

Fundamentalists Christians can be horrible as well when it comes to gay people, a good example of that is what they do in Africa (eg. Uganda) by financially supporting certain political parties to push through very strict anti-gay laws which make homosexuality punishable by life in prison (and for a while even the death penalty looked to be a possibility). There IS talk about these problematic aspects about the Christian religion in the West. I have seen several Western documentaries about the issue. I have seen Western politicians address the issue and protest and condemn these fundamentalists. There is no sweeping it under the rug.

However, it seems to me a lot of people in the Arab/Muslim world try to sweep the problematic aspects of Islam under the rug (even not particularly religious ones), instead of addressing the problems. Why does an honest dialogue about Islam seem so impossible? Why is it always blocked by knee-jerk claims of "Islamophobia" (such a ridiculous term) and such?

And despite of the problematic aspects of Christianity and Judaism, what Linda said is spot on:

But if you are seriously going to argue that homophobia in the West is just as bad as in Islamic countries you're just being dishonest. Try having a Gay Pride parade in Iran or Saudi Arabia.


KOPV;4152073 said:
That is where I'm at with this.. we hardly ever call "christian" people extremist or attack the religion when someone that may have claimed to be a part of Christianity does something crazy... we've had serial killers, people that have done mass murders, and various wreak all kinds of "terror"..

We do not call Christian people religious extremists when the act they commit has nothing to do with their religion. But you cannot deny a religious aspect when people commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam. The perpetrators themselves declare it is in the name of Islam, so how on Earth do you seperate it from religion? And there are a LOT more terrorist attacks that are committed in the name of Islam today than in the name of Christianity, you cannot deny that.

People hardly noticed in the wake of the Orlando attack but there was another attack in France in recent days. The guy killed a police man and his girlfriend and threatened to turn the Euro 2016 (football European championship) "into a cemetary" but he was shot down. This too was in the name of Islam: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/14/europe/french-policeman-terror-attack/

As for this perpetrator of Orlando. There WAS a religious aspect. He was on the FBI's watch list for a while because he made fundamentalist remarks to his co-workers. Even the people who spotted him at the gay bar several times said that once he pulled a knife on someone because he thought that person made derogatory remarks about his religion.

Religious people come in all shapes and forms in every religion. Most people (in every religion) cherry-pick certain aspects of their religion and ignore others. That doesn't make the religious aspect behind such a crime any less relevant. And who's to tell who is a "real Muslim" or a "real Christian"? Fundamentalists will say they are. Moderates will say they are. Who is to decide?

People who are secretly gay and are in a homophobic religion can be very conflicted, which this guy probably was. The self-hate that fuels their anger often comes exactly from their religion which is telling them they are sinners and are hated by God. So they may overcompensate and often that overcompensation comes in the form of extreme homophobia. You see that in Christianity too where overly homophobic pastors who are obsessed with preaching about the "sin" of homosexuality all the time are caught with a male prostitute or something. It happens over and over again. This guy's overcompensation was unfortunately this act. But make no mistake, the self-hate and the religious anti-gay teachings are interconnected. You simply cannot leave out the religious aspect.
 
^ Respect I am not denying that religion does not play a role in terror attacks, my point I am trying to make is Islamic people should not be held accountable for THIS persons actions. Which in most media outlets it has been, it always is when it's an arab and/or middle eastern that does something bad.. Keep in mind I do have extra sensitivity to it because of where my heritage comes from. I am tired of feeling under the eye because of my name!! or because most assume I am a Muslim.

Also not every terror act by a middle eastern is act of a terrorist organization, the same way of the man that did the Oklahoma Bombing..

Basically It bothers me that my friends, my family, and I are looked at a specific way because of others actions.. The arab and middle eastern community is overly chastised...

When I say Omar was not a true Muslim, I say that because MOST Muslims are about peace. Islam means peace!! But we have groups that destroy the image.. there are 1.7 billion Muslims around the world.. in retrospect the amount of those who use the religion for evil is small.. But deadly!
 
My basic point is Islam or people of that faith should not be looked down upon because of HIS actions. I see people even here attacking Islam as a religion raise of what he did... just days ago we as a nation celebrate the life of an Islamic man as he passes because he was considered an American hero... people don't use him as an example of the relgion.. only those who do wrong..

Nobody here is "attacking" Islam. All we have said is that there are aspects of the religion that are problematic - as there are in Christianity and Judaism - and that this needs to be acknowledged and debated, first and foremost within Muslim communities themselves, in order for a more tolerant interpretation of Islam to prevail.

When even moderate Muslims (or people that come from Muslim societies) seem so concerned with defending Islam and shielding it from criticism that they refuse to even engage in an honest debate on how certain interpretations of the religion can lead to violence and intolerance, then the ONLY people to talk about this are far-right populists and they are more than eager to lump all Muslims together. They thrive on fear and bigotry. And they will use this denialism on the part of Muslims and well-intentioned liberals as further proof that all Muslims are basically in it together and that the left doesn't understand the problem. This is what has happened in Europe and the wave of far-right nationalism that is currently sweeping the Continent is very disconcerting to me.

There is nothing that undermines the far-right argument more than Muslims who are willing to discuss the problems in their communities honestly and openly. We need to hear from liberal Muslims, gay Muslims, feminist Muslims, dissenting voices, to dispell with this notion that "Muslims" all toe the same line and either approve of Islamic terrorism or simply deny it exists.

That is where I'm at with this.. we hardly ever call "christian" people extremist or attack the religion when someone that may have claimed to be a part of Christianity does something crazy... we've had serial killers, people that have done mass murders, and various wreak all kinds of "terror"..

Just the bias attack on a race, religion, or culture gets to me..

Like Respect77 already said, there's difference between someone who happens to be Christian and does something crazy and someone who does something crazy in the name of Christianity. That said, I don't agree with you at all that people are less hard on Christianity than they are on Islam. When a sexual abuse scandal hit the Catholic Church, nobody rushed to make excuses for them, Catholics didn't complain that this was making them look bad, and nothing was swept under the rug as far as the media and the public were concerned. Just to give one example.
 
Keep in mind it is taught NOT just by muslims that they are the ones to do terrorist attacks In the name of God or a cult like ISIS.. It is joked about by all people, I could not tell you how many times here In the U.S. I had to carry conversations about terrorist, jokes about association (which there are not any) and I out of uncomfort joke back.

Middle easterns are often indocterined to carry that image even when NO association... SO it becomes very easy for someone ANY middle eastern to say they have association or is acting in the name of ..... (whatever).. It is an easy way to get attention..

Omar for example did not have to record videos like the Virginia Tech shooter and do a big scale plot to get that big attention he wanted... Omar went nuts and Is put in the same words as ISIS because of his race..

The only things (to my knowledge) that associated him to terrorists was a guy that went to the same mosque was part of a terrorist attack and made a joking" claim at work while being picked on..

We have Trump stating that he is a Islamic extremist and associating him with ISIS when he to what we know had NO connection.. he was born here in the U.S. just most middle easterns here.. there are somewhere around 2 million in the United States.. Most born here
 
When I say Omar was not a true Muslim, I say that because MOST Muslims are about peace. Islam means peace!!

It rather means "submission".

Islam is a verbal noun originating from the triliteral root s-l-m which forms a large class of words mostly relating to concepts of wholeness, submission, safeness and peace.[24] In a religious context it means "voluntary submission to God".[25][26] Isl?m is the verbal noun of Form IV of the root, and means "submission" or "surrender".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Etymology_and_meaning

But whatever its name means doesn't matter much when we look at the actions committed in its name and the passages of Islamic scriptures that those actions are based on which are far from peaceful passages.

Omar for example did not have to record videos like the Virginia Tech shooter and do a big scale plot to get that big attention he wanted... Omar went nuts and Is put in the same words as ISIS because of his race..

Oh c'mon that's simply not true. The religious aspect wasn't put on this guy because of his race, but because he himself called 911 and pledged alliance to ISIS and because he himself made remarks in the past for which he was put under the scrutiny by the FBI and apparently he even pulled a knife on someone once for making derogatory remarks about his religion. To say he is associated with Islamic terrorism just because of his race is very dishonest.

The only things (to my knowledge) that associated him to terrorists was a guy that went to the same mosque was part of a terrorist attack and made a joking" claim at work while being picked on..

So a guy who eventually did violent acts - and he did that by his own admission in the name of ISIS -, was "just picked on" by the FBI and co-workers because of his race. Alright.

It doesn't matter if he had actual connection with ISIS or not. You can be inspired by ISIS and religious extremism even when you do not have a personal contact with them. That doesn't mean there is no religious aspect of this.

Basically It bothers me that my friends, my family, and I are looked at a specific way because of others actions.. The arab and middle eastern community is overly chastised...

I understand that, but instead of criticizing and challenging the violent aspects of Islam like Western humanists and secularists do with Christianity here you are again being very defensive of Islam and fighting against any criticism of it (and you also did once in the Atheist thread), while you claim not to be a Muslim, just coming from an Islamic culture. Don't you think LindaG makes a great point here?

When even moderate Muslims (or people that come from Muslim societies) seem so concerned with defending Islam and shielding it from criticism that they refuse to even engage in an honest debate on how certain interpretations of the religion can lead to violence and intolerance, then the ONLY people to talk about this are far-right populists and they are more than eager to lump all Muslims together. They thrive on fear and bigotry. And they will use this denialism on the part of Muslims and well-intentioned liberals as further proof that all Muslims are basically in it together and that the left doesn't understand the problem. This is what has happened in Europe and the wave of far-right nationalism that is currently sweeping the Continent is very disconcerting to me.

This a 1000 times!

If you want to fight the prejudice against Arab people (or people from other Islamic cultures) in general the way is definitely NOT to be defensive about Islam and trying to shift blame always on others - especially not as a moderate Muslim or a secular person who just happens to come from a Muslim society.

I have to say I appreciate that article that Snow White posted from that Arabic humanist website. Honestly talking about the problems is how solving them begins, not by sweeping them under the rug and always pointing a finger at others.
 
Respect I speak Arabic.. (not as fluent any more though) the word Islam comes from the world Salaam which means peace... Avery common fraise s Salaam Alaikum which means "peace upon you"..

By language that is what Islam means, the Muslim religion uses the word as submission to God which it teaches "That is where you find peace"! but the ROOT meaning of Islam is peace.. So they have connections to both meanings but the historic meaning where it derives from is peace..

Kind of like the word faith.. The real meaning is confidence in a person or thing.. But many religions use the word something more defined as "Believing without seeing" which has some ties to the original meaning but not REALLY what the root meaning is.
 
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KOPV;4152291 said:
Respect I speak Arabic.. (not as fluent any more though) the word Islam comes from the world Salaam which means peace... Avery common fraise s Salaam Alaikum which means "peace upon you"..

By language that is what Islam means, the Muslim religion uses the word as submission to God which it teaches "That is where you find peace"! but the ROOT meaning of Islam is peace.. So they have connections to both meanings but the historic meaning where it derives from is peace..

Kind of like the word faith.. The real meaning is confidence in a person or thing.. But many religions use the word something more defined as "Believing without seeing" which has some ties to the original meaning but not REALLY what the root meaning is.

Same root doesn't mean same meaning. To say Islam means peace is misleading.

In Arabic, the word “Islam” means submission or surrender – however, it was derived from the root word “salam”. From this root word, you can also derive the words peace and safety. Many people feel that Islam implies some sort of enslavement to Allah, but others find it more helpful to define the word “Islam” as surrender.


...

So, if we look at the word ‘Islam’ in this way, we can understand why obeying Allah’s commands and trusting in Allah’s wisdom could bring about peace for a Muslim.

http://muslimvoices.org/word-islam-meaning/

But like I said the name itself means little when the scriptures of a religion include violence and aggressivity. Of course, there is violence and aggressivity in other religions as well, however it is Islam that is ironically being repeatedly called "the religion of Peace".

And also from the above extract it seems "peace" in this context simply means the inner peace of a believer. Not necessarily peace with people who hold other beliefs or want to live a different lifestyle than what Islam dictates.
 
Just looking at the actions of their prophet himself, saying Islam stands for peace is misleading. Muhammad was a conquerinng warlord imposing his religion by the sword, slaughtering people who refused to convert to Islam kidnapping their sisters, daughter or wives forcing them to marry him which is not peaceful at all. To be fair, the bible called upon those same issues I mentioned previously but Christianity in general has never claimed to be a religion of peace or standing for it.

For people who follow Muhammad by the letter like ISIS, any person who professes other religions or people who don't believe in deities are infidels and they have been slaughtering them, even other Muslims since they consider them infidels for not following their holy book,
 
I still don't think all Muslims should be lumped together. I don't appreciate people lumping all Christians together. I'm NOT like a lot of Christians I know. Maybe we need Public Service Announcements or more broadcast network's docs on the differences-so people will get it. Just today I saw two different stories of Houstonians planning on blowing up mosques.




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I see so much hypocrisy in this thread.... I don't know what religious background people have here but if the belief system comes from an of the three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam, or Judaism) and to say ONES prophets are THIS or THAT should bite there tongue a bit. Lets not forget that they come from the same history and share many of the same prophets...

All religious books are filled with contradictions... Not just Islam... so no need to single it out!
 
I'll just add as a side note to sarcastically poke at those who are poking at islam.. We better watch out for those Jacksons, a couple of them are Muslim and we know how those Muslims were there for Michael after the trial... Some hateful people for sure ha!

Nobody was hating on the Muslims when Michael was living with them, while he ran the hell away from the U.S.. Somewhere he could find...What's the word I used earlier?? PEACE!
 
I still don't think all Muslims should be lumped together. I don't appreciate people lumping all Christians together. I'm NOT like a lot of Christians I know. Maybe we need Public Service Announcements or more broadcast network's docs on the differences-so people will get it. Just today I saw two different stories of Houstonians planning on blowing up mosques.

Again, you are conflating Muslims as people with Islam as an ideology. Why is it so hard to understand that one can disagree with (certain aspects of) an ideology without being prejudiced about people who adhere to some version of that ideology? If I say that I think the Bible's support of slavery and genocide is barbaric, am I being offensive to Christians?

Perhaps I should copy my post in the atheist thread if the distinction still isn't clear (to put it in context, the discussion was about liberals and their use of the term Islamophobia):

I think many liberals are concerned about discrimination against Muslims as individuals and that is why they're more sensitive to criticism of Islam. It's understandable when you have prominent politicians arguing for a ban on all Muslims entering the country, special surveillance for Muslims, a tax on "head rags", and other such discriminatory nonsense. A lot of people don't distinguish between Islam as an ideology and individual Muslims who have a wide range of interpretations of that ideology. Few liberals would argue that forced marriages or LGBT persection are acceptable practices but they (we) have a problem with the tacit assumption that all Muslims are in favour of this. I guess the term Islamophobic is appropriate in that sense, as in there is only one version of Islam and that version is best represented by ISIS and Boko Haram. You could say it is the most literalistic version and that would probably be accurate but there are sects within Islam that believe the Quran is not meant to be taken literally at all times.

That said, the term Islamophobia is also often abused to deflect any critical inspection of the Quran or the historically documented actions of Mohammed or other things that should be open to debate. There is nothing "phobic" about pointing out that there are verses in the Quran in support of slavery, rape, mysoginy, antisemitism, homophobia, torture and murder. But even if that wasn't the case and the entire Quran was about love and peace and happiness, there is nothing wrong in principle with questioning it.

No, a billion Muslims are not violent but that does not mean certain verses in the Quran cannot be used in support of violence. As far as I know, there are no Christian countries in the world today where slavery is legal but that does not mean the Bible cannot be used to justify slavery (and it was).

I see so much hypocrisy in this thread.... I don't know what religious background people have here but if the belief system comes from an of the three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam, or Judaism) and to say ONES prophets are THIS or THAT should bite there tongue a bit. Lets not forget that they come from the same history and share many of the same prophets...

All religious books are filled with contradictions... Not just Islam... so no need to single it out!

I'm an atheist born and raised. Respect77 and Snow White are atheist as well. All of us have acknowledged that other religions have their problems and inconsistencies as well (that's why we're atheist) so I don't quite see where the accusation of hypocrisy comes from. The reason we are talking about Islam in this particular thread is because a (self-proclaimed) Muslim and Islamic State sympathiser just murdered 49 people and injured 53 more. But if you want to bring up the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to prove how Christians can be bad too, go right ahead... -_-
 
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^ When you use the term 'Islamic State Sympathizer' what are you really saying this guy was? I've seen that term used in several way.. that is what is key here..
 
^ When you use the term 'Islamic State Sympathizer' what are you really saying this guy was? I've seen that term used in several way.. that is what is key here..

What else am I supposed to call someone who pledges allegiance to the Islamic State?
 
What else am I supposed to call someone who pledges allegiance to the Islamic State?

I would think you should look at the entire context of facts as we know them. He pledged allegiance to several different groups, some of which were adversarial with one-another. For whatever reasons, this was a very angry person who was able to buy a military-style assault weapon, with no problem.

Personally, I have issues with the paradigms of the "big three" monotheistic, paternalistic, religions, all of which have very violent passages that can be appropriated (cherry-picked) to justify interpersonal violence. There is a difference between the paradigms of these religions, and many individual practitioners of those faiths, most of whom are good and kind people.
 
I would think you should look at the entire context of facts as we know them. He pledged allegiance to several different groups, some of which were adversarial with one-another. For whatever reasons, this was a very angry person who was able to buy a military-style assault weapon, with no problem.

But all of the groups he pledged allegiance to were Islamist extremists (which was the point I was trying to make) and they do not disagree with each other when it comes to the slaughter of LGBTs or infidels. The main disagreement Al Qaeda and IS have with each other is what constitutes an apostate in Islam - Al Qaeda regards Muslims who smoke (for example) as sinners but not necessarily apostates whereas IS regards anyone who doesn't follow their strict interpretation of the Quran to the letter an apostate. And the punishment for apostacy in Islam is death.

Like I said, there were other factors that played a role in this attack as well, such as lax gun laws and possible mental illness.

Personally, I have issues with the paradigms of the "big three" monotheistic, paternalistic, religions, all of which have very violent passages that can be appropriated (cherry-picked) to justify interpersonal violence. There is a difference between the paradigms of these religions, and many individual practitioners of those faiths, most of whom are good and kind people.

True, but you can't deny that there is one religion that is causing the bulk of religiously inspired violence in the world right now.
 
Again, you are conflating Muslims as people with Islam as an ideology. Why is it so hard to understand that one can disagree with (certain aspects of) an ideology without being prejudiced about people who adhere to some version of that ideology? If I say that I think the Bible's support of slavery and genocide is barbaric, am I being offensive to Christians?

Perhaps I should copy my post in the atheist thread if the distinction still isn't clear (to put it in context, the discussion was about liberals and their use of the term Islamophobia):

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by LindavG

I think many liberals are concerned about discrimination against Muslims as individuals and that is why they're more sensitive to criticism of Islam. It's understandable when you have prominent politicians arguing for a ban on all Muslims entering the country, special surveillance for Muslims, a tax on "head rags", and other such discriminatory nonsense. A lot of people don't distinguish between Islam as an ideology and individual Muslims who have a wide range of interpretations of that ideology. Few liberals would argue that forced marriages or LGBT persection are acceptable practices but they (we) have a problem with the tacit assumption that all Muslims are in favour of this. I guess the term Islamophobic is appropriate in that sense, as in there is only one version of Islam and that version is best represented by ISIS and Boko Haram. You could say it is the most literalistic version and that would probably be accurate but there are sects within Islam that believe the Quran is not meant to be taken literally at all times.

That said, the term Islamophobia is also often abused to deflect any critical inspection of the Quran or the historically documented actions of Mohammed or other things that should be open to debate. There is nothing "phobic" about pointing out that there are verses in the Quran in support of slavery, rape, mysoginy, antisemitism, homophobia, torture and murder. But even if that wasn't the case and the entire Quran was about love and peace and happiness, there is nothing wrong in principle with questioning it.




No, a billion Muslims are not violent but that does not mean certain verses in the Quran cannot be used in support of violence. As far as I know, there are no Christian countries in the world today where slavery is legal but that does not mean the Bible cannot be used to justify slavery (and it was).



I'm an atheist born and raised. Respect77 and Snow White are atheist as well. All of us have acknowledged that other religions have their problems and inconsistencies as well (that's why we're atheist) so I don't quite see where the accusation of hypocrisy comes from. The reason we are talking about Islam in this particular thread is because a (self-proclaimed) Muslim and Islamic State sympathiser just murdered 49 people and injured 53 more. But if you want to bring up the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition to prove how Christians can be bad too, go right ahead... -_-

No, I wouldn't take offense to pointing out the barbaric, violent aspects of the Bible-because you're talking about the Bible-just a book written by a lot of men many years ago, that was for their time. I assume the Quran and Mohammed are the same way-times change.

Personally, I don't take the term "islamphobic" to mean the Quran-I take it to mean all Muslims, because that's how I hear it on the news, the talking head news channels and actual people I know in real life. Nobody ever talks abut the Quran itself on the news. Nobody talks about banning the Quran here. They DO talk about banning Muslims. They do talk about rounding them all up and shipping them all out. Let the right wing Christians buy enough machine guns and they'll be just as bad as the terrorists we've seen already. They're bad enough with their mouths. Our state laws are changing all the time to abide with the strictest letter of the Bible, the more conservatives take over. Federal courts have to get involved for basic human rights.

I know you guys are atheists, and I do read the atheist thread from time to time-and I probably agree with 95% of the stuff you all post about the Bible and the Christian religion. I have wondered if I am one too-I've had several people ask me if I am, which surprised me. But just because I don't agree with the Bible LITERALLY, doesn't mean I don't believe in something spiritual-and I think most Muslims are the same way.
 
What's strange to me is that people generally are wishy-washy about who they decide to blame when tragedy strikes. People want to blame a faith as a whole when it's most convenient to validating their personal beliefs (again I'm speaking generally).

Every single religion on this planet has a small percentage of radical, megalomaniacal crazies that stain the group as a whole. It bothers me deeply that so many people look for ways to circumvent this very simple fact. Christianity is well-known for this and has one of the bloodiest histories, in the history of history. There have always been and will always be egotistical people who either use religion as a cover, or totally convince themselves that their religion supports their desire to commit evil acts. This IS NOT the purpose or function of any faith, and it hurts my heart that a beautiful thing is turned ugly to justify a lynch mob mentality.

Muslims or followers of the teachings of Islam are "terrorists"? Ummm NO. There are terrorists that hide behind Islam to not feel guilty about slaughtering people for self-serving reasons. That is NOT what Islam is about as a faith.

Christians are judgmental and hypocritical? Well, seeing as those behaviors aren't very Christian-like, what does that tell you? Maybe they aren't very good Christians, or not Christian at all. Again, that is NOT what Christianity as a faith is about.

Using the bad apples to define any greater group in life is always a bad idea. If anything it just serves as a perfect example of the spectrum of humanity. Some people are really good, a large chunk are in the middle and are doing the best they can, and the other bit are pond scum.

Terrorism has less to do with any denomination of faith, and more to do with the human condition and our propensity for violence. That's not all we're capable of, of course, but the potential is there sadly.
 
***Moderator Note*** (lol)

This conversation is AWESOME, and I encourage everyone to keep exploring and unpacking these ideas. But just a reminder to all of us, please be respectful of other's beliefs, faith-based or secular, and try to remain objective and concentrate on ideas.

Thanks all and carry on! :dancin:
 
I still don't think all Muslims should be lumped together. I don't appreciate people lumping all Christians together. I'm NOT like a lot of Christians I know. Maybe we need Public Service Announcements or more broadcast network's docs on the differences-so people will get it. Just today I saw two different stories of Houstonians planning on blowing up mosques.

No one lumped all Muslims together or said that all Muslims are violent or adhere to violent interpretations of their religion. But it is dishonest to say that today all religions cause the same amount of problems as far as violence in their name because it is just not true. We have an attack against civilians in Islam's name almost every week now. We have ISIS, we have Boko Haram (they are not even covered a lot in Western media but they do horrible, horrible things - like the massacre of whole villages), we have Al Quaida. I think why that is so should be honestly addressed and discussed instead of being swept under the carpet in the name of religious sensitivity.

And if moderate Muslims want to fight against the bad reputation their religion gets they should address those problematic issues within their religion instead of trying to silence any outside criticism of Islam. That will never solve the problems. In fact, it will only deepen them because, as LindaG pointed out, when no one wants to address the elephant in the room then right-wing extremists will and use it for their own agenda. Silence and religious sensitivities - the reluctance to criticize one particular religion - will only backfire on the long run. As it already did.

Sam Harris (secularist, atheist, advocate for seperation of the church and state etc) addressed this problem as well.




I see so much hypocrisy in this thread.... I don't know what religious background people have here but if the belief system comes from an of the three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam, or Judaism) and to say ONES prophets are THIS or THAT should bite there tongue a bit. Lets not forget that they come from the same history and share many of the same prophets...

All religious books are filled with contradictions... Not just Islam... so no need to single it out!

No one is being a hypocrite here. Go to the Atheist thread - we criticize Christianity just as much as Islam, or even more because it is closer to home. We would be hypocrites if we criticized Christianity but we would remain silent about Islam out of some misguided political correctness (or even be defensive about it as some liberals are).
 
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Related to the discussion above.

[h=1]Half of Turkish Germans hold Islam above state law[/h] Published: 16 Jun 2016 17:20 GMT+02:00
Updated: 16 Jun 2016 17:21 GMT+02:00


A wide-ranging new study by the University of Münster shows that Germany’s Turkish community still has very conservative views on the role of religion in society.


The survey provides an often contradictory picture of social attitudes among Germany’s 2.7 million people of Turkish origin.
A total of 47 percent of the 1,201 respondents said that “following the tenets of my religion is more important to me than the laws of the land in which I live.”


But the study also reveals that this viewpoint is much more firmly held by the first generation (57 percent agreement) - Turks who emigrated to Germany - than by their offspring (36 percent agreement among 2nd and 3rd generation Turks).
One in three respondents, meanwhile, agreed that “Muslims should strive to return to a societal order like that in the time of Muhammad.”


Once again, this point of view was more strongly held in the first generation (36 percent) than in the second and third (27 percent).


Twenty percent said that the threat which the West poses to Islam justified violence. Seven percent said violence was a justifiable means of spreading Islam.


The report's authors assessed that 13 percent of people they spoke with were religious fundamentalists based on the answers they provided.


1466088374_islam.JPG



Role of women



Stark inter-generational differences were also evident in attitudes regarding the role of women in society.

While just under half of first-generation Turkish immigrants said that women belong at home, by the third generation this figure had shrunk to 27 percent.


Nonetheless, 57 percent of the second and third generations said that “a small child will definitely suffer if his mother has a job.”


Religion also plays a strong role in how Turkish Germans view other people.


Although 80 percent said they had a “very positive” or “rather positive” attitude towards Christians, under half said the same about Jews and atheists.


The study also revealed a radically different perception of Islam among Turks as in the wider German population.
While 6 percent of Germans as a whole associate Islam with human rights, 57 percent of Turkish Germans do.
Similarly the 65 percent of Turkish Germans who think of Islam as standing for peacefulness is in marked contrast to the 7 percent of the wider population who hold this view.


Majority happy in Germany


At the same time, there was wide belief that one had to conform to German values to succeed.


Over 80 percent of respondents said that one must respect German law if one wants to successfully integrate, while 70 percent said they wanted to “absolutely and unconditionally” integrate into German society.


While 90 percent of German Turks said they feel happy or very happy in Germany, half of all respondents said that they felt like second-class citizens in the Bundesrepublik - 54 percent said that “no matter what I do I will never be recognized as a part of German society.”


The results are not without their contradictions, the report notes.


“While people with Turkish roots seem to a great extent to see themselves as having made a home in Germany… at the same time half of them see themselves as second-class citizens.”


While respondents expressed anger that Islam is falsely understood in Germany “quite a few of them hold onto religious positions which don’t do much to counter the magnitude of suspicions and mistrust.”

http://www.thelocal.de/20160616/half-of-turkish-germans-hold-islam-above-state-law
 
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Every single religion on this planet has a small percentage of radical, megalomaniacal crazies that stain the group as a whole. It bothers me deeply that so many people look for ways to circumvent this very simple fact. Christianity is well-known for this and has one of the bloodiest histories, in the history of history. There have always been and will always be egotistical people who either use religion as a cover, or totally convince themselves that their religion supports their desire to commit evil acts. This IS NOT the purpose or function of any faith, and it hurts my heart that a beautiful thing is turned ugly to justify a lynch mob mentality.

Yes, Christianity also has a bloody history. I'm glad you at least recognise this rather than denying that the Crusades or the Thirty Years War had anything to do with religion. It was only by acknowledging that Christianity can be used as a tool of oppression and that sectarian differences are often at the root of conflict that Europe managed to overcome centuries of religious wars. It was by gradually taking away the power of religion in politics (through the separation of church and state) and in people's minds (through reason and science) that the Christian world is no longer in constant turmoil.

Muslims or followers of the teachings of Islam are "terrorists"? Ummm NO. There are terrorists that hide behind Islam to not feel guilty about slaughtering people for self-serving reasons. That is NOT what Islam is about as a faith.

Nobody ever said Muslims are by definition terrorist. I don't think even the most fervent Trump supporter would go that far. But can the teachings of Islam be used to justify terrorism? Absolutely YES. And you seem to admit as much when you say terrorists "hide behind" Islam when they slaughter people. If there was nothing in Islam that condoned the slaughter of civilians then they wouldn't be able to use it as cover for their actions.

Christians are judgmental and hypocritical? Well, seeing as those behaviors aren't very Christian-like, what does that tell you? Maybe they aren't very good Christians, or not Christian at all. Again, that is NOT what Christianity as a faith is about.

We'll agree to disagree.
 
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