Triumph 45th Anniversary

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

mmm, I've seen a user unironically believe Leaving Neverland and others dismiss anything made after Thriller. Might just be my experience, though.

People over there like his stuff. Not every single one but that's true everywhere, humanity is not a monolith. For a non MJ place, it's a moderate collection of "casual" fans. I didn't say 'everybody loved him".

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Sure there are no controversy surrounding Bad, no surgery, no tabloïds, no big conflict with Quincy for the sound of album and Thriller was a crappy album and Victory tour suck, sure, and I'm the one who deny the reality.

Look you can see yourself in youtube video during this time or peoples who were present in 87 and give their opinions in various forums etc...you could see that yourself.

Name me a single person, by name, who has said "Thriller" the original album in 1982 configuration only, sucks, and I'll concede to your points.

 

[filmandmusic]

I’m in the pre 1985 camp too. It is pretty much the only MJ stuff I listen to but I will not go as far as saying anything post thriller is bad. That is far from the reality. It is very normal an artist reinvents himself, they all do it and there is nothing wrong with liking one style over another. I admire how Michael managed to be a completely different artist, especially in the early 90s but my pick is clearly 1976 to 1984 followed by Motown.

You can ask me why and I will tell you the singing was better for me, the dancing likewise, the clothes and overall appearance too. It was less theatrical. I think the songwriting was far better and less in your face and finally the music being more organic and less mechanical is much more to my taste.

A song like Beat It will always be relevant lyrics wise and it is very original to this day. Billie Jean and Wanna Be Startin Something are enigmatic, Be Not Always is subtle especially compared to later songs with the same themes, bless his soul and Destiny are personal to name just some examples. The songs written for Michael are also in general of a higher standard. Often his best songs post Thriller are actually from the late 70s and early 80s like Dirty Diana, Liberian Girl, Best Of Joy and Little Susie.

 

[Derek1984]

I’m in the pre 1985 camp too. It is pretty much the only MJ stuff I listen to but I will not go as far as saying anything post thriller is bad. That is far from the reality. It is very normal an artist reinvents himself, they all do it and there is nothing wrong with liking one style over another. I admire how Michael managed to be a completely different artist, especially in the early 90s but my pick is clearly 1976 to 1984 followed by Motown.

You can ask me why and I will tell you the singing was better for me, the dancing likewise, the clothes and overall appearance too. It was less theatrical. I think the songwriting was far better and less in your face and finally the music being more organic and less mechanical is much more to my taste.

A song like Beat It will always be relevant lyrics wise and it is very original to this day. Billie Jean and Wanna Be Startin Something are enigmatic, Be Not Always is subtle especially compared to later songs with the same themes, bless his soul and Destiny are personal to name just some examples. The songs written for Michael are also in general of a higher standard. Often his best songs post Thriller are actually from the late 70s and early 80s like Dirty Diana, Liberian Girl and Little Susie.

Same. But a lot of that has to do with just the style of music. By the mid 80's, the music scene was changing. Less live instruments. More of a pro tools sound.

Give me all the demos/unreleased songs from 76 to 86. That's really all I want to hear.

 

[filmandmusic]

Same. But a lot of that has to do with just the style of music. By the mid 80's, the music scene was changing. Less live instruments. More of a pro tools sound.

Yeah I also just love the sound of music back then not just Michael’s

Give me all the demos/unreleased songs from 76 to 86. That's really all I want to hear.

Well I want to hear everything still but if I had just one option I’d go for those too. I’m especially interested in stuff like Neverland Landing which I assume is a ballad, Michael’s ballads back then were bliss

 

[83magic]

I’m glad that others are finally starting to notice what I’ve been battling with for so long now. the deliberate attempt to rewrite history and attack michael’s character during ‘thriller’.

it’s out of jealousy and resentment of its success and enduring popularity over their personal favourite eras, that they do this. many were rooting for the 40th anniversary documentary to fail before it was even released. things got so bad in that thread (which should have been a safe haven for me) that I abandoned the board for months, before putting a whole bunch of people on ignore..

despite being a fan my entire life, I’ve been reduced to a mere ‘casual’ for preferring ‘thriller’. opinions are fine ( I personally think it’s pointless to argue over them) as long as they align with the majority it seems.. otherwise you’re targeted and ganged up on.

I would never dream entering threads about the later years just to bash them, and uplift ‘thriller’. yet fans do just that in regards to ‘thriller’ to prop up the later years.

I really wish there was a community that dealt solely with the early eighties

 

[blair]

I was!

Cool, I was here too !!!

I'm sure they were but Michael's fan base is huge so there are always many different viewpoints being expressed. Lots of people might have been disappointed but the album was phenomenally successful and loads of people loved it.

I have never denied it was not successful, but like you have said, lot of disappointment, specially among black fans who were used to his old styles, you can't change everything in his appearances and music, without big consequences.

Speaking only for myself, I didn't see this period as remotely complicated. A fabulously interesting progression, sure.

You don't remember the bleaching rumors ? the changes of styles of music too extreme from rnb to pop ? the fact his black fans felt abandonned because of that ? all this stuffs have begun with Bad.

Respectfully, I'm struggling to see the success of Bad as causing 'catastrophic' consequences for Michael's career.

Because it was a disappointment, you can't go from 20 millions in USA for Thriller in less of 2 years to 7 millions for Bad, without a big problems, you can to 8 Grammy to just 1 (who was not for Michael) for the same reason.

Well, sure. It wasn't universally loved, 100%. That's normal. Personally, I rather like the Rolling Stone review (and I do not like RS) which made these comments:

"Comparisons with Thriller are unimportant, except this one: even without a milestone recording like “Billie Jean,” Bad is a better record."

"As in his best songs, Jackson’s free-form language keeps us aware that we are on the edge of several realities: the film, the dream it inspires, the waking world it illuminates."

“Bad” needs no defense. Jackson revives the “Hit the Road, Jack” progression and proves (with a lyric beginning with “Your butt is mine” and ending with the answered question “Who’s bad?”) that he can outfunk anybody any time. When Jackson declares that “the whole world has to answer right now,” he is not boasting but making a statement of fact regarding his extraordinary stardom."

"Michael Jackson deserves the rewards due to those who tell their truth, who admit complexity when simplifications are at hand and who can funk in the valley of the gods."

I'm not posting these quotes bc I expect everyone to agree with them. That'll never happen. But one magazine naming Bad as the worst album of the year is just one magazine out of many that had other, more positive views.

Sure but here are imo a big differences between to think it's a not a good album and to feel confident enough mediatically to call it the worst, that mean not a crazy idea to post an article like that, weirdly it seem it was in Rolling Stone too (sorry I can't find the article), I have seen lot of positives articles like "it's good but...." and details lot of defaults, and we have Moonwalker movie who was catastrophic too.

Bc Victory was a shorter tour. That will affect the figures. Besides, the actual gross is surely more important than an average gross.

That don't change the fact that Victory tour was extremely successful in average gross in comparaison to Bad, you can't compare the actual gross because Bad have far more concerts, and if you take the actual it was the 2nd one in the list, there are also the fact it was because of his tour he have begun to sing in playback (remember that he hated to make tours).

 

[blair]

@blair was there really an mjearly80s forum?
I would have practically lived there

Yes it was awesome, sadly I have myself was in this forum during the last days, it was a long time ago, lot of pictures you still online are from their collections, I really liked this website because they were in general older and have talked candidly how they have felt to change in his styles after 1985, how he seemed far more happy before and how that seemed influenced his styles, it was like to comeback in 80's to feel the Jackson mania again, really great site and great members.

 

[83magic]

Yes it was awesome, sadly I have myself was in this forum during the last days, it was a long time ago, lot of pictures you still online are from their collections, I really liked this website because they were in general older and have talked candidly how they have felt to change in his styles after 1985, how he seemed far more happy before and how that seemed influenced his styles, it was like to comeback in 80's to feel the Jackson mania again, really great site and great members.

1985 is also my cut off point. more specifically, ‘we are the world’/ his visit to madam tussaud’s in london.

1983 I believe was his absolute peak, and my personal favourite; hence my username

the music and everything he did in general, spoke for itself and created the justified hype.

his voice was beautiful & clear, whether he was expressing joy & abandonment or anxiety & desperation.

his dancing was quick, intricate and fluid. with the unique blend of his past idols fused with the then current street trends.

his music had the right balance of light & dark. hard & soft. nothing was overwhelming about it.

his self penned songs gave an insight into his life and who he was. whilst not overly obvious, the lyrics were vivid enough to create the narrative for his short films. it was all so groundbreaking.

michael’s message was positive as most highlighted in ‘beat it’. he showed young men that they didn’t have to be drawn into violence just to prove how tough they were. parents saw him as a role model. the song was used for the campaigns against drink driving and drugs. his audience would span multiple generations.

it was never the same after that, but I don’t wish to dwell on that..

@blair if enough of the members of the mjearly80s forum are still around, maybe they could start a facebook group or something similar? I would really like to know more about that forum; the layout & design, the content and what was discussed..

 

[blair]

Name me a single person, by name, who has said "Thriller" the original album in 1982 configuration only, sucks, and I'll concede to your points.

Here ? first lot of peoples find that overrated, for me that mean the same thing, see the polls:

What's the Most Overrated MJ Album?

Bad for me. It just has no flow and no consistency. For me it's a "singles" album but not an album as a whole with a concept and a flow to it

www.mjjcommunity.com

the member Pez:

Thriller- the song not the album

I don`t think i can ever critique thriller with or without the video. Yes i do skip it too :ninja: cuz its over played. Radio stations plays it all the time, and plus i did the thriller flashmob, and after 2o hours of dance rehearsals i was done. :lol: But thriller is soo iconic. I wouldnt call...

www.mjjcommunity.com

"I've never been a huge fan of Thriller (the song) the only time I tolerate it is when I watch the video which is of course amazing. Bar that, I always skip it or just never play it. I think Thriller overall is his weakest album except for songs like BJ, WBSS, Beat It, HN and PYT."

Well, we are very close to thriller "suck"

I don't see how you can hate sunset driver or she's trouble and like the official album like you have said.

 

[blair]

I’m glad that others are finally starting to notice what I’ve been battling with for so long now. the deliberate attempt to rewrite history and attack michael’s character during ‘thriller’.

it’s out of jealousy and resentment of its success and enduring popularity over their personal favourite eras, that they do this. many were rooting for the 40th anniversary documentary to fail before it was even released. things got so bad in that thread (which should have been a safe haven for me) that I abandoned the board for months, before putting a whole bunch of people on ignore..

despite being a fan my entire life, I’ve been reduced to a mere ‘casual’ for preferring ‘thriller’. opinions are fine ( I personally think it’s pointless to argue over them) as long as they align with the majority it seems.. otherwise you’re targeted and ganged up on.

I would never dream entering threads about the later years just to bash them, and uplift ‘thriller’. yet fans do just that in regards to ‘thriller’ to prop up the later years.

I really wish there was a community that dealt solely with the early eighties

I'm surprised my their surprises, you have made thread in the past about the division between Jackson between these two areas,

Yes the 40th anniversary where they were far enough to enjoys, sure it was not perfect, but I'm 100% agree with you about their reactions, lot of peoples have hated the project or the doc before that have been released, I don't remember to have seen lot of doc with so much new footages, or hear all these new demo, but hey I'm the hater.

It was like that a long time ago, I rassure you, talk about Victory tour, it's his solo tour are superiors, talks about his brothers, they all suck, talk about music video from early 80's, they are not as good than his later music video etc...it's really like there are two Michael Jackson, I can't count the numbers of thread with Thriller overrated, like you say it's like they feel frustated and threatened because they don't have seen the Jackson Mania with Thriller.

I don't talk about the famous: "he have the same face since Thriller, he have never changed."

About the MJ early 80's forum again it was great, very sad that they have been closed

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Well, we are very close to thriller "suck"

No, we're not.

And I don't hate those songs and never said I did. Sunset Driver is not a Thriller song by the way, you fell for the Estates repackaging.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

And that's enough derailing of this thread, it's about Triumph, not Thriller.

Personally I love Triumph more than Thriller and Off The Wall and Bad too.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I have never denied it was not successful, but like you have said, lot of disappointment, specially among black fans who were used to his old styles,

As a Black woman I was never upset by the progression of Michael's music or his art. I know the Black American / African American community in the US had their issues but it's different over here in the UK. Or maybe it's just me. Either way, I was totally on board with what he was doing, musically.

You don't remember the bleaching rumors ?

I do remember this. The skin bleaching stuff, I really wasn't paying a lot of attention to that. I was always aware of what was being said about Michael but I never did any sort of deep dive into stuff like that, especially anything that I considered to be more about his personal life. The papers had been writing nonsense about him since Thriller days and tabloid stuff doesn't interest me much.

To be clear, when I said his life wasn't complicated, I only meant the progression and change in his music from Thriller to Bad. Seemed pretty normal to me. His personal life was complicated, sure.

the changes of styles of music too extreme from rnb to pop ?

The development in his music and art didn't bother me, as I said. I don't see it as extreme. Personal taste, obviously. Plus I don't see Bad as just 'pop'. Disco funk? Modern R&B? Rock 'n Roll? I mean, I'm no music critic but there's a lot more going on in the album than just pop, imo.

the fact his black fans felt abandonned because of that ? [...]

Michael was a phenomenon. He was a comet blasting across the sky. He couldn't be contained, he couldn't be held back.

EDIT - Just seen Mr JT's post! I'm derailing, lol.

 

[blair]

1985 is also my cut off point. more specifically, ‘we are the world’/ his visit to madam tussaud’s in london.

1983 I believe was his absolute peak, and my personal favourite; hence my username

the music and everything he did in general, spoke for itself and created the justified hype.

his voice was beautiful & clear, whether he was expressing joy & abandonment or anxiety & desperation.

his dancing was quick, intricate and fluid. with the unique blend of his past idols fused with the then current street trends.

his music had the right balance of light & dark. hard & soft. nothing was overwhelming about it.

his self penned songs gave an insight into his life and who he was. whilst not overly obvious, the lyrics were vivid enough to create the narrative for his short films. it was all so groundbreaking.

michael’s message was positive as most highlighted in ‘beat it’. he showed young men that they didn’t have to be drawn into violence just to prove how tough they were. parents saw him as a role model. the song was used for the campaigns against drink driving and drugs. his audience would span multiple generations.

it was never the same after that, but I don’t wish to dwell on that..

@blair if enough of the members of the mjearly80s forum are still around, maybe they could start a facebook group or something similar? I would really like to know more about that forum; the layout & design, the content and what was discussed..

Agree with you, sometimes I'm torn to include or not Captain Eo, in the making of, I feel it's still the funky Michael Jackson from Thriller; but it's true that we are the world was the last time I really feel "Jackson Mania".

100% agree with the rest, everything he have done during these moments were with sensibility, no too much, the perfect balance, beat it is clear, the message is clear, younger I can't understand the lyrics, but the video was very clear, I really like your message with the problem with Bad it's everything is done with excess, far too much, bad words, bad attitude, it's like he have tried to take the fans from hiphop and Prince and his own adience were not enough.

It's what I have liked about the Documentary 40th behind the scene stuff, how solar MJ was during these times.

About the members of mjearly80's, sorry I don't remember the members, it was a longtime ago, I will give you more details about that, in an other thread or in PM.

 

[blair]

Agree to disagree Mister Jay Tree, except apparently nobody have noticed my message with the comparaison between"we love you' and "Push the Switch".

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Agree to disagree Mister Jay Tree, except apparently nobody have noticed my message with the comparaison between"we love you' and "Push the Switch".

I noticed. I listened to it. They're both catchy and gave good energy.

 

[blair]

Well that near the same songs, the same intro, near the same melody.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Well that near the same songs, the same intro, near the same melody.

It could be "repurposed" by Jermaine in that case.

 

[R1chard]

I have never denied it was not successful, but like you have said, lot of disappointment, specially among black fans who were used to his old styles, you can't change everything in his appearances and music, without big consequences.

Meh. This just seems to be a combination of (1) some people are always gonna complain, and (2) Americans seem obsessed with bringing race into everything. Give it up man - it's the only way you can progress.

You don't remember the bleaching rumors ? the changes of styles of music too extreme from rnb to pop ? the fact his black fans felt abandonned because of that ?

Basically, MJs entire career is one defined by change. He was always trying to do something different. Did the soul/bubblegum fans get turned off by the disco era? Did the Beat It fans get turned off by MITM? Did the rap fans get turned off by Little Susie?

An artist can do whatever he likes. MJ is under no obligation to release music that you enjoy. If you didn't want him to change since 1969, then maybe MJ isn't for you.

I didn't like the transition to the R&B of Invincible. And that's fine. I'm not supposed to. You can't please all the people all the time. No point complaining about it. If you don't wanna buy an album, simply don't buy it.

 

[83magic]

in regards to the original post, the song sounds a lot like ‘all night dancin’. it seems to be yet another solo michael song on a jacksons album. maybe tito & randy are playing instruments? unless there is a more complete version, I don’t think ‘we love you’ is releasable. however, michael’s voice is melodic, even without lyrics.

listening to the demos from these sessions, it’s clear that michael was in the driver’s seat. just based on the way he was giving instructions. he was far more involved with this project than ‘victory’.

@Derek1984 mike mckinney was a guitarist who played on the jacksons songs both in studio, and onstage. I’m guessing that he arranged the guitar parts on ‘everybody’, which is why he was given a co writing credit. much like louis johnson on ‘get on the floor’.

 

[Derek1984]

We Love You just sounds like an improvised jam session. Fun song and glad we got a chance to hear it, but doubt it was ever seriously considered for the album.