Things That You Believe Weren't Necessary/Didn't Add Value to MJ's Performances

Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I think at the end of the day we all have our own opinions and beliefs what Michael did on his tours and shows. we all need to respect one another disagreement and opinions. it doesn't make you less of a fan if you don't agree with somethings Michael did.
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

criticizes the artistic exploitation of religious symbolism, specifically the crucifixion of jesus
...
It was perceived as anti-christian

LOL, typical.

I was just thinking what's ironic about Jarvis is that he also saw himself above the others with a holier than thou attitude, thinking it's him of all people who had the authority to decide what's appropriate and what's not, and attributing himself the right to execute his own judgement (that is, if he wasn't just drunk of course).

bug thing

Staged or not, I love the bug incident, it's so cute. :blush: Plus it's something I can easily imagine MJ doing (both saving the bug and getting someone else to do the job :D), so the idea might have came from a real occurrence after all.
 
ozemouze;4289610 said:
I was just thinking what's ironic about Jarvis is that he also saw himself above the others with a holier than thou attitude, thinking it's him of all people who had the authority to decide what's appropriate and what's not, and attributing himself the right to execute his own judgement (that is, if he wasn't just drunk of course).

Being drunk doesn’t turn someone into a different person, though, it just lowers the barriers to act out whatever has been brewing inside that person. So the attitude was definitely there, with or without the booze. :D
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I think at the end of the day we all have our own opinions and beliefs what Michael did on his tours and shows. we all need to respect one another disagreement and opinions. it doesn't make you less of a fan if you don't agree with somethings Michael did.

That's also saying Michael loved all his fans. so i don't think he would do something to offend his fans. for example when people thought Michael said something about his Jewish fans. Michael apologize and cut it from the song TDCAU.

he loved his Jewish fans and didn't meant to offend them.

everything is different to different people. what might not offend you may offend others.
 
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mj_frenzy;4289442 said:
Art should not be a free-for-all territory, especially when it comes to such religious matters.

What Michael Jackson actually did at that ‘Earth Song’ 1996 Brit Awards performance was to appropriate the messianic imagery of Jesus.

Look, for example, how these people/children around him want to touch him because this supposedly would cure them.

And his arrogance was not just obvious from that particular performance, but it can also be seen from the entire HIStory era.

His ‘HIStory’ song for example was another clear sign of his arrogance, where in essence he put himself in the same league as all those great historic pioneers of the past that the song refers to.

As for the paintings, these were not just arrogant but vain as well.

The jumping up and down at the end of ‘Beat It’ even if it was inspired by the church service when people get the spirit or Holy Ghost, yet it looks very out of place at the end of the ‘Beat It’ performance.

i don't agree with everything you post frenzy but i agree somethings you post it here. while Michael wasn't a historic figure during the time he is one now. yeah that's also offensive because Michael was putting himself with people who probably die while doing something historic. while nothing wasn't wrong for him to be inspire by them and keep them in memory. it was kind of wrong to put him there with them because during the time he wasn't historic figure.

i didn't know Beat It was inspire by that. in my opinion the video wasn't bad (no pun) but like i just said and like you just said that probably was offensive to some people. i like the video and song. the song was about a good message anyway. so yeah.

we all different and have different opinions and beliefs likes and dislikes. that end of the day we all human and love Michael that's all what's really matters.
 
somewhereinthedark;4289586 said:
I guess it’s alright for a “rock” musician to “bite a bat’s head” off and everyone think that crap is cool
I'm not sure that was seen as cool. Ozzy said he thought it was a fake rubber bat someone had threw onstage. He had to get rabies shots for the bat thing. A lot of the things Ozzy Osbourne did was laughed at by people or made jokes about them by comedians. Like people made fun of his speech and slow movements when the Osbourne family reality show was on MTV. That wasn't really funny since that was the result of all the years of Ozzy doing heavy drugs & alcohol. Ozzy was taken to court because the parents of their son killing himself claimed that Ozzy's song Suicide Solution was the blame for it. Marilyn Manson's music was blamed for the Columbine shootings. That isn't a new thing either. Rock n roll was called the Devil's music by angry parents and preachers in the 1950s. Rock was said to cause juvenile delinquency.

People in the southern USA burned Beatles stuff after John Lennon's Jesus comment. It was taken out of context in a US teen magazine that got it from an interview John did in England. They got death threats from the KKK and some radio stations banned their music.

Also there was all the jokes and outrage from the media & general public when Prince changed his name to a symbol in the 1990s and went around with "slave" written on his face. There was the buttless pants on the MTV Awards that folks made jokes about too.
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DuranDuran;4289644 said:
Ozzy said he thought it was a fake rubber bat someone had threw onstage. He had to get rabies shots for the bat thing.

Actually, I have a lot more questions about the person that threw the bat onto stage than I have ever had about Ozzy. :D

Nice list, I had forgotten about some of these “scandals”. Never understood that kind of public outrage, to be honest. Some people really need to look at things more in-depth when they don’t understand them right away.
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I think it's mostly about being outraged for the sake of being outraged. At the same time, the aim of some of these acts is often to provoke as well (be it artistic expression, pushing boundaries or just cheap PR). It's still the public's choise to fall for it or not. ;)

Actually, I have a lot more questions about the person that threw the bat onto stage than I have ever had about Ozzy. :D

Yep, that's a good question. :fear: Poor bat (and Ozzy). If he had a Wayne too the bat would have been saved!
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Not everything seem like it seems but everyone take things differently.
 
Re: Prince

Because some people have different opinion then yours? Then what about those whose right/capability to form an opinion on their own was basically questioned by degrading them as just rabid fans who will "always defend their favs"? BTW there were some legitimate arguments on both sides here to discuss but you chose to ignore them and just kept pushing your interpretation instead of exchanging POVs.

And yep, MJ might have shown signs of arrogance and other faults. He wasn't some kind of saint who had to be perfect.

No. Because I don't like repeating myself, I don't like confrontation, and I don't like allowing myself to get riled up over things that don't actually matter to me at all.
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Michael was very sensitive to animals and bugs. whatever or not the bug thing was an act or not it doesn't surprise me he had a tender heart.

there's a lot times he cried when a bug or animal got hurt or died. poor dear. i actually killed a bug the other night and thought about Michael. i'm sorry Michael but i hate bugs.
 
ozemouze;4289607 said:
Haha, yes, some rock stars from the 60s-70s certainly showed sings of saviour complex, but it was accepted and even sort of celebrated.

Or if the eccentricity, not having "society standard masculin" appearance and behaviour, "reinvention" comes from let's say David Bowie it's heralded as "creative work of a genius, challenging the idea of normalcy and gender, breaking barriers, pushing limits, bla bla bla", when it's MJ it becomes just... a freak. And not just that: the reviewing of Bowie remains in the context of his works, with MJ it transforms into a psychoanalysis of the person (I guess music critics are qualified in every fields), and in a very condescending manner, treating him like a child (which is bothering because of its possible racist roots as well. Remember when Sneddon said "if you’re a good boy" to Chris Tucker at the trial? That wasn't just some random bad wording).

And I love Bowie and the Woodstock generation of rock acts as well. Their celebration is well-earned and correct. The problem is with the double standard when it comes to MJ.

Here's an article on MJ & Bowie and their treatment by the media: http://www.allforloveblog.com/?p=10307

Absolutely correct on the double standard angle.

Michael threatened the standard. It made a lot of people scared.
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I was waiting for the worshiping fans argument... It's much more prosaic though: some people simply like something you don't. Personally I can't stand YANA, but won't go on declaring my (IMO quite established :D) opinion as the only option and suggest that those who like it are just blinded fans who can't see what I do.

It's okay to like something that others criticize. It won't make you any more fanatic then them. ;)

The purpose of listing other similar performances is not to make you like it of course, just to give a wider context as it was made out to be something never-heard-of-before outrageous thing done by arrogant, messianic MJ. It's not.

And actually you can read quite a lot of criticism in this thread with others being fine with it. The more heated reaction was to the categorical (and quite harshly worded) claims about the Brit Award ES in particular.

And some remarks: I have nothing against threads like this, but let's face it: these titles/focuses are quite leading. Maybe some small changes like "things that added/did not add value" could make them more balanced.

It's perfectly fine to criticize MJ's work, but it often turns into some strange psychoanalyzing of MJ's character, intentions, life choices, mental state etc. on MJ boards. I think it's intrusion of his private sphere and dignity that we should avoid, as I'm sure no one would like to be treated in similar manner (and yes, I know he's dead). I've honestly never seen this in any other community, fans criticize the work of their fave artists but not the person, and certainly won't make diagnosis about them because of some performance they didn't like.

Let's just not forget MJ was a human and as such he had every right to be occasionally contradictory, tired, uninspired, arrogant, even to make some less than successful song/performance (and we have the right to criticize the latter, of course). Respecting this and acknowledging his faults without constantly criticizing it isn't worshiping him, on the contrary: it's accepting he was a human too.

Thank you so much for this. I am on board with every word.
 
Snek;4289506 said:
I can forgive it because it sets up MJ being able to appear on the cherry picker at the start of Beat It after the magic trick.

Also I will say this, is it really so inappropriate to use messianic imagery when trying to convey such a powerful and important message? MJ was acting as the protector, against war and the destruction of our planet. Obviously he does not see himself as the actual physical embodiment of a Christ-like figure, it is all metaphorical.

That being said, if anyone has the right to act messianic in their performances it is MJ. He had such goodness in his heart and he did his best every day to heal the world of its injustices. And he was persecuted. Just something to think about. I don’t think we will see such a soul in any of our lifetimes again.

What has Jarvis ever done for this world? Nothing.

Absolutely.

Basically, as a fan, I never presumed to be able to tell Michael Jackson the artist that the way he wanted to do something was wrong, or embarrassing, or cringeworthy and I'm fairly sure that everyone he worked with didn't presume to tell him that, either. I saw each and every one of his performances as him taking creative licence and they were in keeping with his MESSAGE, always. If I didn't necessarily understand something the first time, I didn't dwell on that and I certainly didn't put my own interpretations or judgments onto it. Now that he is gone and I look back upon his work, the integrity of it is even more important to me....I look at it as a whole.....I perceive it as a complete experience, from start to finish and I don't presume to be well-enough equipped to analyse it and pick it apart. There is something familiar and comforting about the consistency that can be found in MJ's live performances; he had a vision of how he wanted to be seen by his audience and he had a vision of what he wanted them to feel and what he wanted them to do in their lives, as a result of that. That's the importance of MESSAGE and ACTION.
 
I noticed someone posted that the bug incident was staged. Where did this supposed info come from? Who said it? Asking because I have NEVER heard anyone say it was staged. I HAVE Heard that Michael was so caring and sensitive that he didn’t even want to kill anything, even an insect. Therefore, the bug incident sounded legitimate and credible to me at the time. Again, who is the person who is now claiming that his concern for the “bug” was staged?
 
Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Absolutely.

Basically, as a fan, I never presumed to be able to tell Michael Jackson the artist that the way he wanted to do something was wrong, or embarrassing, or cringeworthy and I'm fairly sure that everyone he worked with didn't presume to tell him that, either. I saw each and every one of his performances as him taking creative licence and they were in keeping with his MESSAGE, always. If I didn't necessarily understand something the first time, I didn't dwell on that and I certainly didn't put my own interpretations or judgments onto it. Now that he is gone and I look back upon his work, the integrity of it is even more important to me....I look at it as a whole.....I perceive it as a complete experience, from start to finish and I don't presume to be well enough equipped to analyse it and pick it apart. There is something familiar and comforting about the consistency that can be found in MJ's live performances; he had a vision of how he wanted to be seen by his audience and he had a vision of what he wanted them to feel and what he wanted them to do in their lives, as a result of that. That's the importance of MESSAGE and ACTION.

THANK YOU FOR THIS! Very astute and AWARE observation.
 
OnirMJ;4289595 said:
And also a bug thing even though I didn't know that was staged. I thought that happen only on 1 concert.

M.J. Content;4289598 said:
It did happen in the concert in Leipzig, Germany on August 3, 1997 (edited into Munich, but really in Leipzig), but that was the only time I think. I have never seen an interlude about the bug in any other HIStory show, and to add, that was just in a brief intermission before the Jackson 5 Medley, so it is not technically apart of a performance. Not on the setlist, not a performance, at least to me. Therefore, this bug thang should be withdrawed from this list on that basis.

ozemouze;4289610 said:
Staged or not, I love the bug incident, it's so cute. :blush: Plus it's something I can easily imagine MJ doing (both saving the bug and getting someone else to do the job :D), so the idea might have came from a real occurrence after all.

NatureCriminal7896;4289674 said:
Michael was very sensitive to animals and bugs. whatever or not the bug thing was an act or not it doesn't surprise me he had a tender heart.

somewhereinthedark;4289810 said:
I noticed someone posted that the bug incident was staged. Where did this supposed info come from? Who said it? Asking because I have NEVER heard anyone say it was staged. I HAVE Heard that Michael was so caring and sensitive that he didn’t even want to kill anything, even an insect. Therefore, the bug incident sounded legitimate and credible to me at the time. Again, who is the person who is now claiming that his concern for the “bug” was staged?

The bug incident was staged and it took place in specific HIStory concerts.

The bug incident happened at the Leipzig HIStory concert (on August 3rd, 1997), at the Hockenheim HIStory concert (on August 10th, 1997), and at other HIStory concerts.

This information was confirmed by several sources (fanzines that were published at that time, fan reports on magazines, published reviews of those concerts, etc).

After the first two times that the bug incident took place, fans realized that it was simply a staged thing (for the sake of the entertainment), and at his subsequent HIStory concerts they were actually expecting this staged bug incident to happen again.
 
"bug incident" lol

It was a damn hot summer back then, and 23 years ago I guess there were a lot more insects around. So with such a big stage the appearance of bugs doesn't necessarily have to be "staged" if it happened at more than one concert. Maybe he just enjoyed making a show out of it. He loved ALL bugs. ;)
(I visited 8 of the european HIStory shows and can't remember any "bug incidents" btw.)

This whole thread... Jesus. Some of you may need a little MJ-timeout, to then come back later and focus on things you like. There's a whole world of music and art out there, you know.
 
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The bug incident was staged and it took place in specific HIStory concerts.

The bug incident happened at the Leipzig HIStory concert (on August 3rd, 1997), at the Hockenheim HIStory concert (on August 10th, 1997), and at other HIStory concerts.

This information was confirmed by several sources (fanzines that were published at that time, fan reports on magazines, published reviews of those concerts, etc).

After the first two times that the bug incident took place, fans realized that it was simply a staged thing (for the sake of the entertainment), and at his subsequent HIStory concerts they were actually expecting this staged bug incident to happen again.

Your sources are always nebulous. Are you sure that you're not just regurgitating some myth from a HIStory Tour hit piece/critic's review?

By the way, there are a lot of bugs in the world. Chances are there were plenty of bugs on the HIStory Tour stages for Michael to save. It doesn't mean that he wasn't genuine about it. He just wanted to add something funny and cute......some banter for the fans to enjoy.
 
Where exactly does the 'bug incident' happen in this concert?



How can you always be so sure about myths?
I'm pretty sure that whole thing wasn't even staged and it probably only happened once or twice.
The same things can happen during multiple shows sometimes, you know? For example the 'failed lean' that happened in Amsterdam and in Tokyo.
 
Oh god the “bug incident,” the new biggest scandal of the HIStory tour 😂
 
Breaking news in the bug incident scandal

The bug finally speaks up: "It wasn't my intention to cause a commotion, I was just carried away in the heat of the moment and landed on the stage. I haven't met Mr. Michael Jackson before and didn't plan the scene with him in order to charm the insect-loving part of his audience."

Meanwhile a bat, who doesn't want to reveal himself but sources say was involved in a strange accident with a famous rock star, shares his views on the topic about animal life on the road. "The bug escaped easily" he says "I wish I was this lucky". Click for more details and find out more animal opinions.
 
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