The main reason most people don't like Invincible album is Rodney Jerkins?

Carey denied that the story MJ said about her calling him to complain about Mottola was true.

No one backed MJ when he called Mottola racist lol what chu doing
No one cares what she said while she was still on Sony and under Motolla's thumb still. What she says now is the truth:

She also comes close to accusing Mottola of racism at several moments in the book, writing, for example: “From the moment Tommy signed me, he tried to wash the ‘urban’ (translation: Black) off of me… Just as he did with my appearance, Tommy smoothed out the songs for Sony, trying to make them more general, more ‘universal,’ more ambiguous. I always felt like he wanted to convert me into what he understood—a ‘mainstream’ (meaning white) artist.”

In another episode recounted in the book, Mottola, who is white, flies into a rage when Carey praises Sean Combs. Mottola says, “Puffy will be shining my shoes in two years.” Carey says this was “one of the very few times I stood up to Tommy, telling him that what he had said was blatantly racist.

She also says, “Tommy never wanted to talk about my biracial identity; if he wasn’t ashamed of it, he certainly didn’t want to promote it.”


And here's a source to end this contention.
 
Tommy Mottola was Hall & Oates manager in the 1970s. I remember that Daryl Hall said in an interview once that Motolla came from a mafia family. They also made a song about him called Gino (The Manager). It's from what is known as the "Silver Album", but it is self titled. It's no secret that a lot of old entertainment had mob ties, record labels & distribution, clubs, & Hollywood movies. It's rumored that the mob was behind Sam Cooke's murder. Modern guys like Suge Knight had nothing on the old school gangsters.
 
What I find interesting is that people on hoax forums, which I frequently read, are more supportive, respectful and understanding than the people I see posting here. And those are the ones being called crazy and disrespectful. It's sad Michael's work is still not understood and appreciated by even his own fans, some 14+ years after his alleged demise.
Can you please explain what a “hoax forum” is?
 
Can you please explain what a “hoax forum” is?

Sure I can. It's a forum just like this one except people there believe Michael didn't die, that his death was a long planned hoax and they investigate every aspect of his life to try and unravel why he did it.
 
The sales make it clear that there was a declining interest in his music, not necessarily that he was shadow-banned or cancelled by a secret cabal.
It's more like Thriller was an incredible outlier that was just impossible to replicate even by Michael. His records from Off The Wall to Bad and Dangerous and beyond, that was consistent.
 
What I find interesting is that people on hoax forums, which I frequently read, are more supportive, respectful and understanding than the people I see posting here. And those are the ones being called crazy and disrespectful. It's sad Michael's work is still not understood and appreciated by even his own fans, some 14+ years after his alleged demise.
This is not a hoax forum. But you are right, even the casual fans appreciate Michaels work more honestly.
 
He was cancelled by the establishment. The sales make that VERY CLEAR. He became a threat to the powers that be when Thriller blew up and he became bigger than they anticipated. From BAD on, the sales sink like the Titanic. Dangerous was selling like hot buns! And then Evan C(hild) Handler comes on the scene. He never recovered from there, didn't stand a chance. Invincible was completely ignored, even by the fans.

Thriller: 70 million copies.
Bad: 35 million copies.
Dangerous: 32 million copies. This album would have outperformed Bad and maybe even Thriller if it wasn't for the fake ass allegations.
HIStory: a lousy 20 million copies. Even if you include Blood on the Dancefloor in the sales it's still only 26 million.
Invincible: a pathetic 8 million copies sold while it's one of his best albums.

Invincible didn't have the success of the Dangerous album because it, no let me correct myself: HE was boycotted. Michael had been under attack ever since the BAD album for being too rebellious. Because as iconic Thriller might be, it is not his best album and Dangerous should have topped it in an honest world.

But then again, we can tell he is still being shadow banned to this day, unless you believe the views on YouTube are even close to accurate. Thriller gets a billion views every Halloween, gimme a break...
This right here is something I cannot stand for. Comparing sales of Thriller to Invincible is utterly ST*pid. Do you have any idea how dire the situation of the music industry was in 2001 with digital piracy and all...?? YET MJ's Invincible SOLD MORE than all other major artists who released an album that year COMBINED - with no short films or promotion. Get that into rotation... I hope this puts to rest.... I hope this Finally puts to rest..... Invincible and Thriller, really are two different albums. The only thing both albums have in common is that they were released at a time where the music industry was at it's lowest and then MJ came to the rescue.
FYI Invincible is MJ's FASTEST selling album and his most expensive one to make. The opening number on the album titled "Unbreakable" is not a coincidence because at the end of the day, let's say in 100 years, Invincible will have sold 40 million while other (non-MJ) albums be forgotten, it is just bound to happen.

And like bruh.. You really gonna sit here and say the biggest selling double album in history, which is HIStory, got lousy sales.... I... Ok.

It is true MJ was haunted by... almost everyone, almost all the time and what did he do? He made some hit songs about it. So this establishment you are talking about, kinda played in his favor and made him even bigger an icon... This is just my world view. So yes, I remember a story saying MJ was distraught over Sony/Invincible, drinking alcohol in front of his kids and being wasted over the whole situation and crying out-loud "the company doesn't believe in me anymore". I can understand MJ completely, but we can't forget the fact that album was so expensive to make and MJ had 10 different producers working at the same time on it... It was more than Sony could have handled and perhaps they wanted more of MJ and less outer talents. MJ didn't go with that at all! Since it was his last studio album, His intention was to use his Power and Statue To EMPOWER the people in the business and take it a few steps further, to make an impact STILL and "sounds that the ear never heard before".,.... etc etc... -and it remains a fact that all the producers and people involved with invincible will tell you, that the technology and equipment used there for the first time has set the stage for the future of the industry.

I gotta say, it seems to me Invincible was made to be listened to on HIFI and that is to combat the digital piracy.... So anyone judging a track by it's youtube video is also to be considered insane. With that said, I do remember Taj saying MJ would often listen to tracks on a mini-recording thingy and stated that you can really tell if the music is good if you listen on sucha LoFi device and it still sounds good. So yeah, I am just throwing stuff here, Invincible style.
 
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He means exactly what you think. You really think you're just gonna come in and make this a hoax friendly area?

I do not see where I requested or demanded such a thing. I made an observation and then answered a question.

I did not think anything of his comment since I have see the fan fiction on this website and it's in no way comparable to the research (and attempted research) on those forums, which is why I asked to elaborate. What I did expect here is that people would be friendly to ALL, I think that's a reasonable assumption on a website dedicated to a man who preached for more love in the world.

But let's not get off track here, this thread is about the amazing "Invincible" album, not about hoaxes or snarky comments.
 
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Invincible was kinda meant to be average from both side (MJ/Sony) because of "How to deal with the King of Pop" MJ wanted more investments/marketing from his Major and Sony thought their singer wasn't pushing hard his work, kind of toxic relationship...

To me, Sony gave up on him during Dangerous, 14 singles 77mn disc, at least they started to doubt, previous albums were short and vivid, it's just my opinion
 
Someone made a comment here that I can no longer find, which says something to the tune of "dance monkey" which has way too many racial undertones to my liking. And the comment also said basically tht people like Thriller because it is "fun" but as soon as he dropped his "personal album" (that by all reports he had little to do with) suddenly his fans dropped him.

The problem with that is people are allowed to like the music they like and they're not indebted to a musician. If they release music you like, you buy it. If they release music you don't you might not. People were objectively less taken by Invincible than Thriller. And to act like the album is oh so personal is quite ridiculous. What was so personal about it?

Invincible was kinda meant to be average from both side (MJ/Sony) because of "How to deal with the King of Pop" MJ wanted more investments/marketing from his Major and Sony thought their singer wasn't pushing hard his work, kind of toxic relationship...

To me, Sony gave up on him during Dangerous, 14 singles 77mn disc, at least they started to doubt, previous albums were short and vivid, it's just my opinion

Dangerous was a long album because Michael wanted it to be. It was Quincy that was reeling in Mike's excess. I don't buy for a second they gave up on him for Dangerous. Why would they? He was still the biggest selling artist in the world by a country mile. BAD was a massive success despite Michael's own ambition for it beating Thriller. They also had just signed a billion dollar record contract with him. Dangerous was the most anticipated album, probably ever at the time. You have to also remember the marketing that went into HIStory. They were still very much throwing him money and letting him burn it at that point too.

As for whether Michael wanted this to be some average album, I don't think his attacks against Sony when it underperformed bare that out. I just don't think he was in the headspace to be making music, touring, making videos or any of that. By 2001 the guy was cooked. Check the difference between him in MJ and Friends in 1997 and him at the 30th Anniversary concert - that's two different people.
 
I did not think anything of his comment since I have see the fan fiction on this website and it's in no way comparable to the research (and attempted research) on those forums, which is why I asked to elaborate. What I did expect here is that people would be friendly to ALL, I think that's a reasonable assumption on a website dedicated to a man who preached for more love in the world.
To me, the difference is not really existent. Any so-called research, which to the people perpetuating these ideas is more about finding anything that sticks to their narrative, no matter what the reality is, does not prove absolutely anything and is often twisted and turned. To the point where it’s laughable.

I also find it disrespectful to the deceased person, as well as to their loved ones and in this case his fans to think they would fake their death, use body doubles, create a masquerade essentially.
 
Sure I can. It's a forum just like this one except people there believe Michael didn't die, that his death was a long planned hoax and they investigate every aspect of his life to try and unravel why he did it.
Sure I can. It's a forum just like this one except people there believe Michael didn't die, that his death was a long planned hoax and they investigate every aspect of his life to try and unravel why he did it.
Basically something pearl jnr probably came up with
 
Someone made a comment here that I can no longer find, which says something to the tune of "dance monkey" which has way too many racial undertones to my liking. And the comment also said basically tht people like Thriller because it is "fun" but as soon as he dropped his "personal album" (that by all reports he had little to do with) suddenly his fans dropped him.

The problem with that is people are allowed to like the music they like and they're not indebted to a musician. If they release music you like, you buy it. If they release music you don't you might not. People were objectively less taken by Invincible than Thriller. And to act like the album is oh so personal is quite ridiculous. What was so personal about it?



Dangerous was a long album because Michael wanted it to be. It was Quincy that was reeling in Mike's excess. I don't buy for a second they gave up on him for Dangerous. Why would they? He was still the biggest selling artist in the world by a country mile. BAD was a massive success despite Michael's own ambition for it beating Thriller. They also had just signed a billion dollar record contract with him. Dangerous was the most anticipated album, probably ever at the time. You have to also remember the marketing that went into HIStory. They were still very much throwing him money and letting him burn it at that point too.

As for whether Michael wanted this to be some average album, I don't think his attacks against Sony when it underperformed bare that out. I just don't think he was in the headspace to be making music, touring, making videos or any of that. By 2001 the guy was cooked. Check the difference between him in MJ and Friends in 1997 and him at the 30th Anniversary concert - that's two different people.
I think with everything that happened with 1993 it made him distrust alot of people in the music industry and seeing so many of them stab him in the back hurt him deeply. As much as he loved making music and preforming it hurt his heart deeply cuz he was never the same after 1993
 
The best content on Invincible is from Rodney Jerkins, but it's not his best. Xscape and We've Had Enough are missing.
Jerkins was aware of that I guess. He said:
This is crazy, do you think the unreleased invincible will be released?
 
No one cares what she said while she was still on Sony and under Motolla's thumb still. What she says now is the truth:

She also comes close to accusing Mottola of racism at several moments in the book, writing, for example: “From the moment Tommy signed me, he tried to wash the ‘urban’ (translation: Black) off of me… Just as he did with my appearance, Tommy smoothed out the songs for Sony, trying to make them more general, more ‘universal,’ more ambiguous. I always felt like he wanted to convert me into what he understood—a ‘mainstream’ (meaning white) artist.”

In another episode recounted in the book, Mottola, who is white, flies into a rage when Carey praises Sean Combs. Mottola says, “Puffy will be shining my shoes in two years.” Carey says this was “one of the very few times I stood up to Tommy, telling him that what he had said was blatantly racist.

She also says, “Tommy never wanted to talk about my biracial identity; if he wasn’t ashamed of it, he certainly didn’t want to promote it.”


And here's a source to end this contention.
Woah mariah finally telling the truth about mottola i gotta read her book i have it but havent read it yet
 
. Check the difference between him in MJ and Friends in 1997 and him at the 30th Anniversary concert - that's two different people.
MJ and Friends was in 1999 so it was only a year until the 30th Anniversary shows. It's sad how much Michael changed after just one year
 
People were objectively less taken by Invincible than Thriller.
People don't know Invincible exists.
Check the difference between him in MJ and Friends in 1999 and him at the 30th Anniversary concert - that's two different people.
We've already established that he got even more damaged after 1999. Performing took a toll. That was literally the reason he didn't want to tour anymore. That was the reason Sony dismantled his promotion efforts.

The reason Sony wanted to, was probably a mixture of Tommy Motolla and the sales declining in America. And there were some genuine faux pas' in the earlier records promotions.
 
I do not see where I requested or demanded such a thing. I made an observation and then answered a question.

I did not think anything of his comment since I have see the fan fiction on this website and it's in no way comparable to the research (and attempted research) on those forums, which is why I asked to elaborate. What I did expect here is that people would be friendly to ALL, I think that's a reasonable assumption on a website dedicated to a man who preached for more love in the world.

But let's not get off track here, this thread is about the amazing "Invinsible" album, not about hoaxes or snarky comments.
It's a contentious topic whenever you bring it up. You have to be aware of that. You don't have to feel stupid for believing in it, but it is a minority viewpoint to say the least.
 
Basically something pearl jnr probably came up with

Pearl Jr. is a money hungry, completely INSANE individual. So no I disagree.

Someone made a comment here that I can no longer find, which says something to the tune of "dance monkey" which has way too many racial undertones to my liking. And the comment also said basically tht people like Thriller because it is "fun" but as soon as he dropped his "personal album" (that by all reports he had little to do with) suddenly his fans dropped him.

The problem with that is people are allowed to like the music they like and they're not indebted to a musician. If they release music you like, you buy it. If they release music you don't you might not. People were objectively less taken by Invincible than Thriller. And to act like the album is oh so personal is quite ridiculous. What was so personal about it?

'Dance monkey, dance' is a normal expression, has zero racial undertone as it is used by people of all colors about people of all colors. To say that the comment has 'too many racial undertones' is racist itself. Are you implying Michael looks like a monkey? If not, please explain where it was ever a racist comment. It's a common saying about people who have to do other people's bidding. I know that this is 2023 and everything is supposed to be racist but that doesn't mean it really is.

I am not saying people are not allowed to dislike a song or an album. I am simply observing the fact that fans DID drop him during Invincible. Disliking an album because it's not 'to your liking' doesn't mean there is a need for people to trash it as being the worst thing since Oprah or to trash his whole career after Thriller because it's not your cup of tea. Plenty of people DO like the album or even believe it's one of his best and the boycott of the album is a simple fact. It never stood a chance.

And yes, compare the lyrics of the songs on Thriller with those on Invincible (or those in between) and you will hear a much more personal album. Certainly when you know what Michael went through in life. And to believe he releases something he has very little to do with or doesn't 'feel' is quite strange if you listen to what he always has said about music he releases. Not saying he never later thought he made a mistake or had higher hopes for certain songs, just saying he didn't just randomly put out songs.

Michael went through a very difficult time in the late 90's / early 00's and you can hear that on the album in his voice and the lyrics.
It's a contentious topic whenever you bring it up. You have to be aware of that. You don't have to feel stupid for believing in it, but it is a minority viewpoint to say the least.
I don't feel stupid at all. It's just an opinion, I don't think that opinion should be contained to one thread since it's all linked together.
 
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Pearl Jr. is a money hungry, completely INSANE individual. So no I disagree.



'Dance monkey, dance' is a normal expression, has zero racial undertone as it is used by people of all colors about people of all colors. To say that the comment has 'too many racial undertones' is racist itself. Are you implying Michael look like a monkey? If not, please explain where it was ever a racist comment.
I don't know what country you're in, but in the USA, Black people have been called monkeys & apes since the slavery days. It's even in old cartoons. In the Black Panther movie, there's a character called M'Baku, but in the comics he was called Man-Ape. Marvel Studios & Disney knew that wouldn't go over well today, so the Man-Ape name wasn't used.
 
And yes, compare the lyrics of the songs on Thriller with those on Invincible (or those in between) and you will hear a much more personal album. Certainly when you know what Michael went through in life. And to believe he releases something he has very little to do with or doesn't 'feel' is quite strange if you listen to what he always has said about music he releases. Not saying he never later thought he made a mistake or had higher hopes for certain songs, just saying he didn't just randomly put out songs.
Okay so let’s compare Billie Jean and Invincible- “Mother always told me be careful who you love / Be careful what you do ’cause the lie becomes the truth” vs. “Yo, mami, stop the fronting, I'm real with mine / All the things that I promised, I'll fulfill in time” which one do you think is more personal 😂
 
Pearl Jr. is a money hungry, completely INSANE individual. So no I disagree.



'Dance monkey, dance' is a normal expression, has zero racial undertone as it is used by people of all colors about people of all colors. To say that the comment has 'too many racial undertones' is racist itself. Are you implying Michael look like a monkey? If not, please explain where it was ever a racist comment. It's a common saying about people who have to do other people's bidding. I know that this is 2023 and everything is supposed to be racist but that doesn't mean it really is.

I am not saying people are not allowed to dislike a song or an album. I am simply observing the fact that fans DID drop him during Invincible. Disliking an album because it's not 'to your liking' doesn't mean there is a need for people to trash it as being the worst thing since Oprah or to trash his whole career after Thriller because it's not your cup of tea. Plenty of people DO like the album or even believe it's one of his best and the boycott of the albums is a simple fact. It never stood a chance. I

And yes, compare the lyrics of the songs on Thriller with those on Invincible (or those in between) and you will hear a much more personal album. Certainly when you know what Michael went through in life. And to believe he releases something he has very little to do with or doesn't 'feel' is quite strange if you listen to what he always has said about music he releases. Not saying he never later thought he made a mistake or had higher hopes for certain songs, just saying he didn't just randomly put out songs.

Michael went through a very difficult time in the late 90's / early 00's and you can hear that on the album in his voice and the lyrics.

I don't feel stupid at all. It's just an opinion, I don't think that opinion should be contained to one thread since it's all linked together.
If anything, Invincible is by far his LEAST personal album since 14 out of 16 songs weren’t even written by him. And FYI your “dance monkey” insult that was directed at me was totally inappropriate and uncalled for. I’m allowed to have my own opinion, and quite honestly, I’m sick of discussing Invincible on here when there is significantly better material in Michael’s discography.
 
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If anything, Invincible is by far his LEAST personal album since 14 out of 16 songs weren’t even written by him. And FYI your “dance monkey” insult that was directed at me was totally inappropriate and uncalled for. I’m allowed to have my own opinion, and quite honestly, I’m sick of discussing Invincible on here when there is significantly better material in Michael’s discography.
Can y'all stop blowing the "dance monkey dance" phrase outta proportion? It is literally just a phrase based on circus animals.

And if you don't wanna talk about Invincible, then stop clicking on the Invincible Threads. Yes there are too many, but at the end of the day that's on you.

And Invincible is still more personal than the Motown stuff. At least he called the shots. Like it or not.
 
I don't know what country you're in, but in the USA, Black people have been called monkeys & apes since the slavery days. It's even in old cartoons. In the Black Panther movie, there's a character called M'Baku, but in the comics he was called Man-Ape. Marvel Studios & Disney knew that wouldn't go over well today, so the Man-Ape name wasn't used.
Yep youre right calling a black person a monkey is downright racists
 
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