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The main reason most people don't like Invincible album is Rodney Jerkins?

Hamburglar said:
Well you wouldn't take your job as an artist very serious if you wouldn't want to top your earlier work. Certainly not when evil forces are trying to keep you from achieving your goal.
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Yeh i know but he achieved the ultimate goal for artists if that was me i would have retired considering mj had been a singer since he was five.
 
Hamburglar said:
He was cancelled by the establishment. The sales make that VERY CLEAR. He became a threat to the powers that be when Thriller blew up and he became bigger than they anticipated. From BAD on, the sales sink like the Titanic. Dangerous was selling like hot buns! And then Evan C(hild) Handler comes on the scene. He never recovered from there, didn't stand a chance. Invincible was completely ignored, even by the fans.

Thriller: 70 million copies.
Bad: 35 million copies.
Dangerous: 32 million copies. This album would have outperformed Bad and maybe even Thriller if it wasn't for the fake ass allegations.
HIStory: a lousy 20 million copies. Even if you include Blood on the Dancefloor in the sales it's still only 26 million.
Invincible: a pathetic 8 million copies sold while it's one of his best albums.

Invincible didn't have the success of the Dangerous album because it, no let me correct myself: HE was boycotted. Michael had been under attack ever since the BAD album for being too rebellious. Because as iconic Thriller might be, it is not his best album and Dangerous should have topped it in an honest world.

But then again, we can tell he is still being shadow banned to this day, unless you believe the views on YouTube are even close to accurate. Thriller gets a billion views every Halloween, gimme a break...
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The sales make it clear that there was a declining interest in his music, not necessarily that he was shadow-banned or cancelled by a secret cabal. Even if we take out the obvious knock of the Chandler case, his sales were declining with BAD. They did upswing again with Dangerous - partly because I think it was an objectively better album and Michael was more 'out there' with promoting it - but the fact is someone can only redefine the genre so many times. Thriller is a moment no one will ever eclipse, and to expect Michael to do it with every following album is illogical.

Let's be fair about declining sales though - his "declining sales" in BAD, Dangerous and HIStory stand among some of the highest selling albums of all time. If we're going to say Michael fell off (or was pushed off) by the 90s I think we're off the mark.

Certainly Sony had some interest in Michael continuing to sell into the 90s - theyd just signed him to a billion dollar record contract. The turning point seems to be Blood on the Dancefloor which didn't really sell anywhere, confused audiences, and was promoted weirdly. It's like when that came out Sony went, "errr.... might be time for other priorities now?"

The problem as far as I am concerned is how he bounced back from that. He drops Invincible - which just is not in the league of other albums he's made. He seems despondent, out of his element, his looks have taken a hit, and he lacks that relatable humanity and smile he always had to that point. he wasn't the same guy. They did give him 30 million dollars to make that album and I really think between the bickering with Sony and a subpar album on its own, Sony decided to cut their losses, and it sunk Michael Jackson and meant he had to sell his catalogue, so be it.

If Invincible were another Thriller I don't think Sony would have railroaded the album. It has some "nice" songs but there isn't much hit potential to be found. That's not to say Michael couldn;t have released another great album - I believe he could. But 2001 wasn;t the time for it. He wasn't in the right place. Something clearly happens between the MJ and Friends concerts and the Invincible album release that knocks him absolutely flying.
 
Hurley509 said:
The sales make it clear that there was a declining interest in his music,
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A lot of artists had a really big selling album, and none of the rest sold anywhere near it

Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band - Born In The USA
Prince & The Revolution - Purple Rain
Alanis Morissette - Jagged Little Pill
Norah Jones - Come Away With Me
Natalie Cole - Unforgettable... With Love
Beastie Boys - License To Ill
Bobby Brown - Don't Be Cruel
George Michael - Faith
Vanilla Ice - To The Extreme
MC Hammer - Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em
Boston - Boston
Marvin Gaye - What's Going On
Lionel Richie - Can't Slow Down

Some of the few acts I can think of that had multiple blockbuster albums are Garth Brooks, The Beatles, Whitney Houston, Def Leppard, and maybe Pink Floyd & Van Halen. Even with most of them it was 2 to 4 albums. There's other acts where their Greatest Hits/Best Of are their biggest seller: Eagles, Johnny Mathis, ABBA, The Carpenters, & Queen.

Spaceship said:
The fact is that she had no hand in making the song as she only covered it. It wasn't "personal" to her in the same way that a song is personal to the person who actually wrote it. If anything, it was only personal to her in the same way that it would be personal to anyone else who enjoyed the song and covered it. But that's not actually relevant. The song isn't "hers" just because her version was more popular than everyone else's.
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Well then, how does Elton John get a lot of praise by critics? He only writes the music. The lyrics were written by somebody else, usually Bernie Taupin. Anyway, the idea of self writing being important was popularized by the rock press, Rolling Stone magazine in particular. Pre-Beatles, nobody cared if Frank Sinatra or Peggy Lee wrote songs. Many singers of that period recorded a lot of the same songs, which later became known as standards or The Great American Songbook. There were non-performing songwriters who wrote, singers/bands who performed the songs, arrangers/engineers/producers who did the studio work. Very few artists during the entire history of the recording business wrote their own music. Also just because somebody is credited does not necessarily mean they wrote it. Anybody can get songwriting credits if they are registered at the copyright office. Some bands give everybody a credit, even if a particular member helped or not. Elvis Presley never wrote songs, but Colonel Parker had it set up that Elvis got writing credits or half of the publishing. A lot of popular songs today can have 15 different credited writers, and some don't even contain samples, lol. There is a such thing as ghostwriters too.
 
Michael followed a natural progression in sales decline and quality music decline. That’s expected from anyone. His sales were huge early on so it was expected. I think Michael was his own worst enemy in trying to top himself it forced him to make poor decisions on production and producers. That without bringing in the controversial problems that would later pretty much destroy his career and life. Drugs and alcohol I’m sure affected his ability to work and stay focused. That’s why nothing ever came after Invincible.
 
I am baffled his fans think that Thriller was his best album. Interesting to say the very least.
 
Hot_Street said:
I think Invincible needed more Jerkins and Riley. Xscape, We've Had Enough, Shout, Get Your Weight Off Of Me, ...
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Nah Invincible has too much Jerkins and Riley lol. What it needed was more songs written and produced by Michael! And not syrupy ballads like Speechless and Lost Children, it needed dance tracks written and produced by MJ. That would’ve made it a more original, less by-the-numbers record.
 
Hollywood_Tonight said:
Nah Invincible has too much Jerkins and Riley lol. What it needed was more songs written and produced by Michael! And not syrupy ballads like Speechless and Lost Children, it needed dance tracks written and produced by MJ. That would’ve made it a more original, less by-the-numbers record.
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Have you even listened (and I mean LISTENED) to those two songs? To call them syrupy ballads is quite ignorant. Sad.

I guess he was right. To the fans it indeed was 'dance monkey, dance' and we'll spit you out if you don't dance the way we like. Invincible is full of pain and honesty. Thriller was a fun album, but not anything like Invincible.
 
Hamburglar said:
Have you even listened (and I mean LISTENED) to those two songs? To call them syrupy ballads is quite ignorant. Sad.

I guess he was right. To the fans it indeed was 'dance monkey, dance' and we'll spit you out if you don't dance the way we like. Invincible is full of pain and honesty. Thriller was a fun album, but not anything like Invincible.
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“Your love is magical / that’s how I feel / But I haven’t the words to explain” could you possibly be anymore saccharine than that? Sounds like something straight out of a 1940s Disney movie lol.
 
Hamburglar said:
Have you even listened (and I mean LISTENED) to those two songs? To call them syrupy ballads is quite ignorant. Sad.

I guess he was right. To the fans it indeed was 'dance monkey, dance' and we'll spit you out if you don't dance the way we like. Invincible is full of pain and honesty. Thriller was a fun album, but not anything like Invincible.
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And I agree with the last statement. Thriller is fun. Invincible is not.
 
Hamburglar said:
Have you even listened (and I mean LISTENED) to those two songs? To call them syrupy ballads is quite ignorant. Sad.

I guess he was right. To the fans it indeed was 'dance monkey, dance' and we'll spit you out if you don't dance the way we like. Invincible is full of pain and honesty. Thriller was a fun album, but not anything like Invincible.
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Now I understand what you mean- Invincible is, indeed, a painful listen
 
Hamburglar said:
I am baffled his fans think that Thriller was his best album. Interesting to say the very least.
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I don't think that. Mine is Off The Wall and then the group albums Destiny, Triumph, & The Jacksons (1976). The ones after Dangerous I play the least as an album, except for certain songs. I don't really listen to Thriller or Bad much either because I still hear a lot of those songs on the radio all the time. I listened to Triumph yesterday and Jacksons Live! and Ben a couple of weeks ago, but haven't listened to the entire new song half of HIStory in years. I don't really dig CD era length albums in general as much as the shorter pre-CD albums. 80 minutes is just about the average time a movie lasts. 30 to 45 minutes is long enough. That's why 2 older albums can often be put on 1 CD.
 
Hollywood_Tonight said:
Nah Invincible has too much Jerkins and Riley lol. What it needed was more songs written and produced by Michael! And not syrupy ballads like Speechless and Lost Children, it needed dance tracks written and produced by MJ. That would’ve made it a more original, less by-the-numbers record.
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It needs more songs written by Michael. But not like the songs written by Michael. Like the ones I like!
 
I don't understand why some people try to pin the album's failure entirely on Michael. Obviously, Sony was gonna half-ass promoting the album after learning that MJ was planning to leave them, but he was justified to leave them due to the conflict of interest that arose from them being represented by the same attorney. They only gave him permission to leave only as long as he made one more album, a compilation, and a box set for them; basically, they had forced him to make Invincible, and when he finally finishes it, they screw him over? That's just playing dirty.

MJ refusing to tour was also understandable as it was very hard on his body; he wasn't in any shape to tour in 2001. He was justified to speak out against Sony, although he was wrong to call Mottola a racist.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
The Motorola claims are justified. Mariah Carey also confirms them.
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Carey denied that the story MJ said about her calling him to complain about Mottola was true.

No one backed MJ when he called Mottola racist lol what chu doing
 
Spaceship said:
Carey denied that the story MJ said about her calling him to complain about Mottola was true.

No one backed MJ when he called Mottola racist lol what chu doing
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Moronolla was much more than a racist. WTF was he rubbing shoulders with Epstein for?
 
Hamburglar said:
Moronolla was much more than a racist. WTF was he rubbing shoulders with Epstein for?
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Not to derail this topic, but wasn't MJ also an acquaintance of Epstein? A lot of celebrities were, like Chris Tucker and Bill Clinton.

I don't think we should assume this or that about someone just because of who they hung out with.
 
Spaceship said:
Not to derail this topic, but wasn't MJ also an acquaintance of Epstein? A lot of celebrities were, like Chris Tucker and Bill Clinton.

I don't think we should assume this or that about someone just because of who they hung out with.
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Oh my, am I on a Michael Jackson fan board? No he was NOT an acquaintance of Epstein. Epstein had a phone# in his Black Book with "Michael Jackson" above it but that was never Michael's number, it was from one of his lawyers whom he fired.

Christmas was on the plane ONCE for a charity, not on trips to the Island and one of Epstein's accusers said nothing happened there.

Bill Clinton on the other hand...

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Hollywood_Tonight said:
“Your love is magical / that’s how I feel / But I haven’t the words to explain” could you possibly be anymore saccharine than that? Sounds like something straight out of a 1940s Disney movie lol.
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So you don't get the song. That's fine. It IS a deep rabbit hole I advise you to stay away from for your own sanity!
 
This is the same guy who wrote and sang "Heal the World", which was much cheesier than "Speechless".
 
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What I find interesting is that people on hoax forums, which I frequently read, are more supportive, respectful and understanding than the people I see posting here. And those are the ones being called crazy and disrespectful. It's sad Michael's work is still not understood and appreciated by even his own fans, some 14+ years after his alleged demise.
 
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