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Agonum said:
Love it. That’s an anapaest into a diiamb, right? That’s how I read it.
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"I am, my lord, as well derived as he"

That is the sum total of what I can remember from school being taught this type of stuff. :ROFLMAO:

I'm not against it being taught, as I said. It just didn't grab me. I'm impressed that you can pick up on stuff like that.

Agonum said:
I’m like you there, I think. I want to set the pace myself. And I want to repeat certain lines several times to put the stresses exactly where they need to be.
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Agreed. I can understand using actors to recite poetry. They are professionals, after all. Unfortunately, imo, when they recite poetry they often become very 'actorly' and it ruins everything. I can't explain it properly but they have a particular way, often, of reciting poetry and they just get it all wrong. They often come over as pompous, pretentious or just overly dramatic. The tone they adopt or their delivery somehow gets in the way of the words themselves. It becomes a 'performance', I mean, it becomes about their performance and not about the poetry. Is there a lack of confidence that the poetry will hold people's attention? I dunno, I just know a crap, unhelpful recital when I hear it. I don't want to hear how good the actor's delivery is. I want to be able to focus on the poem.

Tbf, it's not always bad. I remember hearing (BBC R4) a recital of TS Eliot's The Wasteland which sent me back to the poem and helped me to get started actually appreciating the thing. It was Paul Schofield, iirc, and he did a great job. But mostly I don't want it. I want to read it myself, bond with the thing in my own way.

Agonum said:
I get what you mean now. And yes, I certainly will have to revisit them. Even now, just reading these few that we’ve posted on here for the second or third time, I’m seeing things that I didn’t quite catch the first time around.

Exciting stuff!
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Excitement city! :D

Listing the poems we've posted so far. I need to revisit all of them today. I think this is all of them:


* By the graveyard, Luskentyre

* Sparrow

*Assisi

*Basking Shark
 
hope said:
This is how children were dressed in the 80's in our country))))
It's -30 frost right now. I don't want to go outside 😅😅😅😅
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−30! 😱

They say we will get −27 ℃ this Saturday…

How much snow do you have?
 
zinniabooklover said:
"I am, my lord, as well derived as he"

That is the sum total of what I can remember from school being taught this type of stuff. :ROFLMAO:

I'm not against it being taught, as I said. It just didn't grab me. I'm impressed that you can pick up on stuff like that.
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It’s actually quite funny, because I was not taught these things in school. It’s rather something that I’ve familiarized myself with on own accord in adulthood’s pockets of spare time. To quote the late great Robin Gibb, “I don’t know why I bother with myself”! 😆

To give a bit of background, though: it came in the same package as the Latin autodidacticism. I think it lends itself a bit to the understanding of Cicero, for example. And if you yourself should feel tempted to write something in the same style, the understanding of verse ought to be a requirement.

Having said that, I don’t think it’s entirely relevant in regards to MacCain’s works. I mean: it surely shouldn’t take away from appreciating them, but what it does bring to the table is minor, perhaps even negligible.

zinniabooklover said:
Agreed. I can understand using actors to recite poetry. They are professionals, after all. Unfortunately, imo, when they recite poetry they often become very 'actorly' and it ruins everything. I can't explain it properly but they have a particular way, often, of reciting poetry and they just get it all wrong. They often come over as pompous, pretentious or just overly dramatic. The tone they adopt or their delivery somehow gets in the way of the words themselves. It becomes a 'performance', I mean, it becomes about their performance and not about the poetry. Is there a lack of confidence that the poetry will hold people's attention? I dunno, I just know a crap, unhelpful recital when I hear it. I don't want to hear how good the actor's delivery is. I want to be able to focus on the poem.

Tbf, it's not always bad. I remember hearing (BBC R4) a recital of TS Eliot's The Wasteland which sent me back to the poem and helped me to get started actually appreciating the thing. It was Paul Schofield, iirc, and he did a great job. But mostly I don't want it. I want to read it myself, bond with the thing in my own way.
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Reading versus hearing – it’s interesting. Having thought about it some more, I can safely say that—to me—this is not restricted to poetry, but is universally true. And reading in silence triumphs one’s own reading aloud, too. Although truth be told: the silent reading is not really silent, because you create your own inner soundscapes (I like how you worded that). And thus, that inner soundscape becomes an idealised image of the reading! That would explain why it rightfully should be practically impossible for the de facto aloud read reading to transcend the silent one.
zinniabooklover said:
Excitement city! :D
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Indeed! 💯🤸🌋
zinniabooklover said:
Listing the poems we've posted so far. I need to revisit all of them today. I think this is all of them:


* By the graveyard, Luskentyre

* Sparrow

*Assisi

*Basking Shark
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Well done, you got them all. And I think it’s a good idea to limit oneself to a small number such as this for now.

I might have messed up the linebreaks in my Sparrow post, though, so I’m gonna have to find the original and see.
 
Agonum said:
−30! 😱

They say we will get −27 ℃ this Saturday…

How much snow do you have?
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And you're gonna have to be cold. And frost is especially unpleasant when the humidity is high.
I don't know if your humidity is high. ..... But because of that the frost is very "biting" (unpleasant on the skin).

There is snow. I'm very glad there is snow )))))
 
hope said:
And you're gonna have to be cold. And frost is especially unpleasant when the humidity is high.
I don't know if your humidity is high. ..... But because of that the frost is very "biting" (unpleasant on the skin).

There is snow. I'm very glad there is snow )))))
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Interesting. Our meteorological institute has this figure:
AbsFukt-jan-1996-2020.png

…showing mean values of absolute humidity (water g/m³) in January. I reside in zone 4. Not very humid, I’d say.

We’ve had ice crystals dancing in the winds the past days. Is that what you are referring to, perchance?

3 dm of snow currently.
 
Agonum said:
It’s actually quite funny, because I was not taught these things in school. It’s rather something that I’ve familiarized myself with on own accord in adulthood’s pockets of spare time.
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I can understand why it appeals to you, this stuff. Not surprised at all to learn you dived into of your own accord. My school was very hot on this stuff and I didn't love it, didn't hate it but it just didn't stick.

Agonum said:
To quote the late great Robin Gibb, “I don’t know why I bother with myself”! 😆
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One of the all time great quotes!

Agonum said:
To give a bit of background, though: it came in the same package as the Latin autodidacticism.
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Yes, I can see that, lol.

Agonum said:
I think it lends itself a bit to the understanding of Cicero, for example. And if you yourself should feel tempted to write something in the same style, the understanding of verse ought to be a requirement.
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Absolutely. I would go further, I would say, if you want to be a poet you really need to understand this stuff. I think you should try to write in these various forms yourself. It doesn't matter if all of your work ends up being in free verse, I still think it's helpful to know about this stuff and, perhaps, be able to actually do it. I have to be a bit careful, here. I'm not really saying it's 100% essential. If you are a slam poet or if you are Len Pennie creating amazing poetry whilst at the same time helping to revive the Scots language, you probably don't need to know how to write an acrostic or a villanelle or even a haiku. But knowing about that stuff, having an understanding and, perhaps, being able to use some of those forms, is never going to be a waste. It can only enrich your work, imo.

Agonum said:
Having said that, I don’t think it’s entirely relevant in regards to MacCain’s works.
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No, I agree. The structure of a poem is a fine thing to know about but not remotely essential when it comes to understanding or enjoying poetry.

Agonum said:
I mean: it surely shouldn’t take away from appreciating them, but what it does bring to the table is minor, perhaps even negligible.
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This is my default position on all of this. I think if you are Seamus Heaney or Geoffrey Hill you probably quite naturally gravitate towards this stuff as part of your education, part of learning your trade, so to speak. But a poet doesn't have to have it. And for us readers, my brain is so fully occupied with my own way of engaging with the poem, I don't feel as if I'm missing anything. I might be but it doesn't feel like I am. So it's fine.

Agonum said:
Reading versus hearing – it’s interesting. Having thought about it some more, I can safely say that—to me—this is not restricted to poetry, but is universally true. And reading in silence triumphs one’s own reading aloud, too. Although truth be told: the silent reading is not really silent, because you create your own inner soundscapes (I like how you worded that). And thus, that inner soundscape becomes an idealised image of the reading! That would explain why it rightfully should be practically impossible for the de facto aloud read reading to transcend the silent one.
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All of this x 1000.

Agonum said:
Well done, you got them all. And I think it’s a good idea to limit oneself to a small number such as this for now.
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It is. Four poems from Norman MacCaig feels like 7 novels from a lesser writer. I'm quite happy to get to know these four a bit better before I move on. And they are all so different from each other.

Agonum said:
I might have messed up the linebreaks in my Sparrow post, though, so I’m gonna have to find the original and see.
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Fair enough. I shall await developments.

EDIT - I found this from Herald Scotland, 2015. No idea if these are the correct line breaks but they do work for me.

"NORMAN MacCaig packs this paean to an ordinary little bird with acute observation and charming imagery. The piece, dated December 1968, can be found in the magisterial posthumous volume of his work, The Poems of Norman MacCaig (Polygon, £25)."

www.heraldscotland.com

Poem of the Day: Sparrow by Norman MacCaig

NORMAN MacCaig packs this paean to an ordinary little bird with acute observation and charming imagery. The piece, dated December 1968, can be found…
www.heraldscotland.com www.heraldscotland.com
 
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"A collective noun for Sparrows is a “host”. Other collective nouns for Sparrows include an “ubiquity”, a “flight”, a “tribe”, and a “quarrel”. The etymology of the collective noun “host” in relation to Sparrows is derived from the Old English word “h?st”, which means “army”. This term was used to describe a large flock of birds, such as Sparrows, that would fly together in a large group. This term was then adopted to describe a large group of Sparrows, and has been used ever since."
 
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Agonum said:
Interesting. Our meteorological institute has this figure:
AbsFukt-jan-1996-2020.png

…showing mean values of absolute humidity (water g/m³) in January. I reside in zone 4. Not very humid, I’d say.

We’ve had ice crystals dancing in the winds the past days. Is that what you are referring to, perchance?

3 dm of snow currently.
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I'm just saying that sometimes the frost seems worse than it is because of the humidity.

And we get about the same amount of snow.
 
hope said:
I'm just saying that sometimes the frost seems worse than it is because of the humidity.

And we get about the same amount of snow.
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I'm struggling to understand humidity in the context of cold winter weather. I only understand humidity in the context of horrible sticky unpleasant British summers when we all get really lethargic.

I think I have too many sparrows in my head, lol. I can't think! :D
 
zinniabooklover said:
I'm struggling to understand humidity in the context of cold winter weather. I only understand humidity in the context of horrible sticky unpleasant British summers when we all get really lethargic.

I think I have too many sparrows in my head, lol. I can't think! :D
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It's about the peculiarities of the marine climate in freezing temperatures. I don't think I can explain it more precisely😅😅😅😅
Ignore it))))
 
zinniabooklover said:
EDIT - I found this from Herald Scotland, 2015. No idea if these are the correct line breaks but they do work for me.

"NORMAN MacCaig packs this paean to an ordinary little bird with acute observation and charming imagery. The piece, dated December 1968, can be found in the magisterial posthumous volume of his work, The Poems of Norman MacCaig (Polygon, £25)."

www.heraldscotland.com

Poem of the Day: Sparrow by Norman MacCaig

NORMAN MacCaig packs this paean to an ordinary little bird with acute observation and charming imagery. The piece, dated December 1968, can be found…
www.heraldscotland.com www.heraldscotland.com
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I believe it is precisely there where I found it!

I think the line breaks are correct now. ￫post #56,130.
 
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