The Gay Gene Debate

[Rebirth]

if there is a gene, i wonder how come some people don't know they are gay until later? was watching this youtube on darren hayes and he said that someone who worked for him first mentioned to him that he might be gay and he at first got angry and didn't realize til later he was gay then he remembered that conversation and laughed cause they knew before he did. if it's a gene that does it... why wouldn't you always know if you are? darren was married before to a woman too. now he's married i think again, but now to a man. just wondering how if it's a genetic thing you wouldnt know.

Darren is just one guy. He does not represent other gay folks in this world. He does not represent me, my sexual background, my life and my experience as a gay man.

Individual differs. A lot of factors can contribute.

I know that I am gay since I was in the kindergarten. Not just literally but specifically.

 

[Vard]

Wearing make up does not represents your sexuality, everyone (man/woman) can use it, this is just, sorry, this discussion has no point to me, hey im a girl, there was a time i love to look as a geisha, and i was using white mask, red lips, and well, my hair was as black as it could be, my hair is so straight, that part was easy, then i became natural, blond hair, green eyes, no make up, does this means anything more than just LOOKS? this make up thing is all about appearience not more than that, just be yourself the way you wanna be.

 

[L.J]

Wearing make up does not represents your sexuality, everyone (man/woman) can use it, this is just, sorry, this discussion has no point to me, hey im a girl, there was a time i love to look as a geisha, and i was using white mask, red lips, and well, my hair was as black as it could be, my hair is so straight, that part was easy, then i became natural, blond hair, green eyes, no make up, does this means anything more than just LOOKS? this make up thing is all about appearience not more than that, just be yourself the way you wanna be.

too right!

 

[Vard]

too right!

Thank you L.J!!!

 

[friend]

Darren is just one guy. He does not represent other gay folks in this world. He does not represent me, my sexual background, my life and my experience as a gay man.

Individual differs. A lot of factors can contribute.

I know that I am gay since I was in the kindergarten. Not just literally but specifically.

i'm not making him out as a representative. i said of him as an example. you're you, he's him. i am still not any clearer about how if it is a gene that determines sexuality how come some (not all) gay people don't know it until later. if sexuality is hardwired through a gene, then how come some don't know it all their lives. that is my question.

 

[cryingangel]

Pope attacks blurring of gender

Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behaviour is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.

He explained that defending God's creation was not limited to saving the environment, but also about protecting man from self-destruction.

The Pope was delivering his end-of-year address to senior Vatican staff.

His words, later released to the media, emphasised his rejection of gender theory.

Speaking on Monday, Pope Benedict XVI warned that gender theory blurred the distinction between male and female and could thus lead to the "self-destruction" of the human race.

Gender theory
Gender theory explores sexual orientation, the roles assigned by society to individuals according to their gender, and how people perceive their biological identity.
Gay and transsexual groups, particularly in the United States, promote it as a key to understanding and tolerance, but the Pope disagreed

When the Roman Catholic Church defends God's Creation, "it does not only defend the earth, water and the air... but (it) also protects man from his own destruction," he said.
"Rainforests deserve, yes, our protection, but the human being ... does not deserve it less," the pontiff said.
It is not "out-of-date metaphysics" to "speak of human nature as 'man' or woman'", he told scores of prelates gathered in the Vatican's sumptuous Clementine Hall.
"We need something like human ecology, meant in the right way."

The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage. It teaches that while homosexuality is not sinful, homosexual acts are.

Rev Sharon Ferguson, chief executive of Britain's Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, described the Pope's remarks as "totally irresponsible and unacceptable".

"When you have religious leaders like that making that sort of statement then followers feel they are justified in behaving in an aggressive and violent way," she said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7796663.stm

:huh:

*pleaseexcusemylanguage_but* Protect humanity my ass :huh:
What humans need protection from is brainwashing and prejudice >_>

And please, saying that:

homosexuality is not sinful, homosexual acts are.

makes absolutely no sense :blink: Did he, by any chance, mention that by having sex before marriage you'll end up in hell? *rollseyes*

No intention of offending any Christian (as I am one myself), but how is this a way of teaching God's love?...

I wanted to point out... not all catholic christians are living somewhere behind the moon...

I'm sure not all Christians think this way, Mechi, and I thank God for that. An institution does not represent each and every individual that is part of it; luckily, people were born with the capacity to think for themselves. Would be a disaster if otherwise :no:

 

[Chihiro2]

i am still not any clearer about how if it is a gene that determines sexuality how come some (not all) gay people don't know it until later. if sexuality is hardwired through a gene, then how come some don't know it all their lives. that is my question.

if you read the thread you'd know that the idea of sexual orientation caused by a single 'gay gene' is nothing more than a banal simplification.

human sexuality is very complex and diverse and cannot be explained by only genetic factors imo. the common assumption that all adults are permanently and exclusively either homosexual or heterosexual doesn't apply to every case. the line between gay and straight can be sometimes more fuzzy. it's often viewed rather as a continuum (with bisexuality in the middle) than just a straight/gay opposition. in other non-western cultures homosexual activities were treated as a natural part of the human condition, were accepted and idividuals participating in them were not classified or differentiated as others.

our modern concept of homosexuality is yet another social construct, closely related to equally artificial gender roles, and both are influenced by patriarchal Christian philosophy which has always categorised complex aspects of life in a dualistic, simplistic way. it makes homosexuality more problematic than it actually is. since we have only a binary opposition gay or straight (the latter clearly preferred), labeling oneself as gay automatically makes him/her different and sets him/her apart from socially acceptable majority. therefore it may be difficult to identify and accept oneself as 'homosexual'.

for me that superficial interest in finding a 'gene' is just another sign of unspoken assumption that heterosexuality is the normal, 'default' way of being. if some genetic basis will be found, i suppose, some people might start labeling it a 'genetic disease' and have that pathetic kind of christian pity based on their feeling of superiority. it would still be a moral issue for them, because, as some christian activists say, you can choose to act on it or not :doh:

 

[friend]

i see. so there's no gene been identified that determines our sexuality? so what is the point of the thread?

 

[Mechi]

i see. so there's no gene been identified that determines our sexuality? so what is the point of the thread?

Discussing possible roots or origins of sexuality, discussing what's really the point in segregating ppl cuz of their sexuality... questioning those who do.

True there's no gene identified...
...yet?! what if? would it change a thing?

 

[friend]

so we're just guessing? from the first post, i thought a gene was found. and just found that confusing. cause if genes determine it, then all the other reasons that are guessed at are moot. it would be dictated by dna. i am guessing there is no gene. humans were created to have free will, a gene that overrides free will seems unlikely to me.

 

[Mechi]

so we're just guessing? from the first post, i thought a gene was found. and just found that confusing. cause if genes determine it, then all the other reasons that are guessed at are moot. it would be dictated by dna. i am guessing there is no gene. humans were created to have free will, a gene that overrides free will seems unlikely to me.

Well it doesn't look that unlikely to me... cuz for example gender is dictated also by genes.
I am heterosexual or if you want so straight but that's surely not my will. Don't know if you feel different about yourself.
But out of what other ppl tell about their sexual orientation no matter if that's hetero or homsexual it seems unlikely to me that there is a 'free will' directing something like physical attraction for example or even attraction to a certain gender.
Even I am sometimes attracted to guys who I'd judge mentally as assholes, so I'd never touch them but still sometimes inside I must admitt there's something attractive about them to me. Sure to then let someone come close or even not, that's without doubt a decision to be made but there's something before that.
As much as I am simply not attracted to women. It's not my will cuz I couldn't direct myself to be attracted to women from tomorrow on even if I'd try to want that with all what God has given me. Then again I'm on the easier side as my sexual orientation is well accepted by society so that I don't have to face any pressure, any injustice, any stupid judgement on my person based on my sexual orientation.
Still it feels I'm pretty much directed by something inside me... and yes I'd like to know what that is...
Well I've done years of research about genetics and also human motives and motive developement, though not anymore today... it just is an interesting field to question and to discuss... although well how do I tell the youngsters every day lol if you're not interested you're not forced to play.
It can never harm to question things, because truth can't ever be at risk! :cheeky:

 

[friend]

maybe free will is the wrong term. it seems to me tho that to be pre-engineered if you will via a gene or genes would be unfair of nature. if anything, i think attraction is a chemical reaction, perhaps guided by genes, idk, in over my head on that level of scientific discussion.

 

[Chihiro2]

But out of what other ppl tell about their sexual orientation no matter if that's hetero or homsexual it seems unlikely to me that there is a 'free will' directing something like physical attraction for example or even attraction to a certain gender.

that's right, if there is such a thing as 'free will' it's certainly VERY limited and especially no one can consciously choose an object of their sexual attraction, there is no element of real choice involved there.

and this conviction

humans were created to have free will

is also a demonstration of thinking determined by some environmental factors, i'd assume, religious background especially.

it seems to me tho that to be pre-engineered if you will via a gene or genes would be unfair of nature.

why? being homosexual because of genetic makeup wouldn't be more unfair than having, for example, blue colour of eyes programmed also genetically.
i don't think the homosexuals/bisexuals/asexuals would be offended in any way if it was proven that their sexuality is determined by genes, lol. who cares? all those individuals are fully functional, completely harmless beings and would live happy and fulfilled lives if the rest of the society accepted their sexual preferences and concentrated rather on their own sex lives. i can't really see any disadvantage of being homosexual other than being rejected, separated and constantly persecuted by the society.

 

[friend]

that's right, if there is such a thing as 'free will' it's certainly VERY limited and especially no one can consciously choose an object of their sexual attraction, there is no element of real choice involved there.

and this conviction

is also a demonstration of thinking determined by some environmental factors, i'd assume, religious background especially.



why? being homosexual because of genetic makeup wouldn't be more unfair than having, for example, blue colour of eyes programmed also genetically.
i don't think the homosexuals/bisexuals/asexuals would be offended in any way if it was proven that their sexuality is determined by genes, lol. who cares? all those individuals are fully functional, completely harmless beings and would live happy and fulfilled lives if the rest of the society accepted their sexual preferences and concentrated rather on their own sex lives. i can't really see any disadvantage of being homosexual other than being rejected, separated and constantly persecuted by the society.

you assume a lot, such as the idea that because i think it is unfair that a choice such as who you love would be determined by nature rather than the individual, that is somehow equivocal to my believing being homosexual is a disadvantage. i never in any way indicated such a thing, nor is that my belief. as far as my ideas of free will, long before i had any such notion of God, or my relationship to him, i believed that people are free, and it is our choices that determines our path. if you want to believe it is a gene that determines sexuality when you stated earlier that to believe such was, how did you call it? banal simplification? i'm not going to argue with you. i don't know. it seems to me however, if it is a gene that determines sexuality, then people would know that, like they know their eyes are blue. so that would take me back to my original confusion, which is if we are pre-engineered for one sexual preference or another, then how come some people don't realize it until later that they are gay when they themselves didn't know it. i don't mean denial, hiding, in the closet, whatever. i mean are unaware of it until later? if we're pre-engineered, then would this not be something we would know of ourselves?

 

[Mechi]

Didn't see this posted yet... although it's not really new anymore it still seems to be no old stuff... well keep in mind yet it's only about males and yet it seems (didn't find anything online yet) that these results were not replicated by other researchers.
Still I think it's good stuff for discussion...




Is There a 'Gay Gene'?

New Genetic Regions Associated With Male Sexual Orientation Found

 

[Mechi]

you assume a lot, such as the idea that because i think it is unfair that a choice such as who you love would be determined by nature rather than the individual, that is somehow equivocal to my believing being homosexual is a disadvantage. i never in any way indicated such a thing, nor is that my belief. as far as my ideas of free will, long before i had any such notion of God, or my relationship to him, i believed that people are free, and it is our choices that determines our path. if you want to believe it is a gene that determines sexuality when you stated earlier that to believe such was, how did you call it? banal simplification? i'm not going to argue with you. i don't know. it seems to me however, if it is a gene that determines sexuality, then people would know that, like they know their eyes are blue. so that would take me back to my original confusion, which is if we are pre-engineered for one sexual preference or another, then how come some people don't realize it until later that they are gay when they themselves didn't know it. i don't mean denial, hiding, in the closet, whatever. i mean are unaware of it until later? if we're pre-engineered, then would this not be something we would know of ourselves?

ppl do know about their eye colors not from birth on... only when their personal developement is far enough to name and differ between colors and they're also able to recognize 'hey that in the mirror is me'. They need to develope and learn for that.
Now the learning process is a difficult and complicate one... and it's influenced by countless factors... but one main one is if your environment wants you and helps you and how it helps you to learn about whatever.

If nobody would have told you ever that the blue color is named blue color you really wouldn't know. I'm not even sure we would learn that those in the mirror is us if we wouldn't be told... how funny the time of a baby when it notices someone over there is making funny movements not at all recognizing it's them making those movements.

Sexuality is an even more complicate developement much later in life. Often it's not even supposed to be a learning process cuz many adults do refrain from talking about it to children and teenagers at all... so it's complicate enough to learn somehow only 'by nature' often.

So that some do get confused learning by only themselves... and try to force themselves to conformity behavior... read chichis experiences some pages ago... seems to be really forced out by society pressure.
I do understand they can't know... because they don't want to know... because they'd just love to have an much easier life. But then we just do find out about ourselves... this is not our way to happiness.
And they'd all deserve to have it much easier to find their very own happiness... at least as easy as everyone of us straight.

 

[friend]

i can go along with that mechi, that you have to start as a baby and go through the stages of development. what i still don't get tho, is when a person goes through all these stages, has their sense of identity, their sense of sexuality, etc. then as an adult, that changes. i don't see how if it is a gene that determines sexuality, that as an adult it would change. i'm not debating there is a gene there isnt. im no scientist, and have no idea. but as a regular, run of the mill person, with average intelligence i think. that doesn't add up. if its a gene that determines it, in the normal stage of development when sexuality kicks in, then it would be preset, and not open to change cause our genes don't change right? we have the same genes at say 40 as we did prenatal?

 

[Chihiro2]

you assume a lot, such as the idea that because i think it is unfair that a choice such as who you love would be determined by nature rather than the individual, that is somehow equivocal to my believing being homosexual is a disadvantage. i never in any way indicated such a thing, nor is that my belief. as far as my ideas of free will, long before i had any such notion of God, or my relationship to him, i believed that people are free, and it is our choices that determines our path. if you want to believe it is a gene that determines sexuality when you stated earlier that to believe such was, how did you call it? banal simplification?

you said it would be 'unfair' - it sounds as if you thought that the homosexuals were in some way wronged by nature. you wouldn't say so about blue eyes, would you?
i never stated that i believe there is 'a gene' which alone determines homosexuality lol. i called it a simplification as opposed to this:

"Since sexual orientation is such a complex trait, we're never going to find any ONE gene that determines whether someone is gay or not," says Mustanski. "It's going to be a combination of various genes acting together as well as possibly interacting with environmental influences."

because of that mixture of many factors it is possible that some individuals can have difficulty with recognising their sexual preference. and environmental factors can influence your development and the way how your genes 'act' during whole life.

 

[friend]

you said it would be 'unfair' - it sounds as if you thought that the homosexuals were in some way wronged by nature. you wouldn't say so about blue eyes, would you?

you're being overly defensive. i think is unfair that a person has no choice in who they decide to love, one way or the other.

 

[Chihiro2]

just as when a person can't choose his/her gender or the colour of his/her eyes. none of those things themselves affect a person's life in a negative way. many our traits are determined by biological factors over which we have no (or limited) control and i can't see what problem can be with that.

 

[friend]

if you're ok with it, and it proves to be correct, that genetics is in play, then all will be well with your world. for me personally, i like to think i have some control at least in some matters. universal rights if you will. until more comes out, seems we will never know. i was just under the impression from the first post that, this evidence was already found. apparently, i didn't fully grasp the initial post. if it turns out that it is genetics, then it still leaves my initial question unanswered, which is how sexuality changes if it is that we are predisposed via our genetics. other genetics don't change, such as eye color unless there is a disease that affects what was genetically given. im not passing judgement on any sexual choices. im just trying to understand how if it is genetics that is the determining factor, why does it change. it seems to me that if sexual preferences can change, that it would not be determined by genetics, but by something else.

 

[Mechi]

but as a regular, run of the mill person, with average intelligence i think. that doesn't add up. if its a gene that determines it, in the normal stage of development when sexuality kicks in, then it would be preset, and not open to change cause our genes don't change right? we have the same genes at say 40 as we did prenatal?

It is not changing... it's always there. Ppl try to be at times what they are not.
Not all ppl are able to be honest to themselves all the time friend.
They do feel certain things but act as if they wouldn't feel them.
The sexual orientation is there all the time, no matter if straight, homosexual, bisexual... but ppl deny having such feelings (even towards themselves) and therefore pretend (not sure pretend is the right term here cuz it often happens without intention, just perfectly lying also to themselves) to have feelings they do have not.
That even makes sense cuz to admitt to such feelings often means lots of hurt in families... starting with telling parents who might will never be grandparents this way.
But this kind of denial is not only a problem for homosexuals and their sexuality... many straight ppl do marry cuz they just think one should marry at a certain age and they think they are in love... later on they find out, they never really were in love... they didn't even really know the person they've married.
You can live in denial with yourself, in denial of your real needs, desires real emotions just usually then not really happy... that's happening much too often in this world if you ask me... we could use more happy ppl.

 

[friend]

we could use more happy ppl.

completely agree.

 

[Mr. Penguin]

In all honesty I believe almost everyone is bisexual. I believe everyone has had interest in the same or opposite sex at least once in their life, despite being "fully" hetero or homosexual.

I do believe that some people are able to become more homo or heterosexual by life experiences.

 

[Chihiro2]

It is not changing... it's always there. (...)
The sexual orientation is there all the time, no matter if straight, homosexual, bisexual... but ppl deny having such feelings (even towards themselves) and therefore pretend (not sure pretend is the right term here cuz it often happens without intention, just perfectly lying also to themselves) to have feelings they do have not.

as far as my uderstanding of genetics goes...
the article you posted above basically says that homosexuality is not determined entirely by genes but influenced.
the research shows that one of the identical twins can be homosexual while the other heterosexual despite sharing the same genetic material. that difference clearly indicates that other non-genetic factors must play a role.
so i think the possibility of a certain orientation is there but not necessarily has to manifest unless the right environmental (non-identified so far) circumstances occur. and i think it's not impossible that they can sometimes occur also later in life.

now, according to the research, there are combinations of homosexuality-related genes, located on different chromosomes, that would suggest that individuals may be predisposed to become homosexual to different degrees (bisexuality), depending on how many genes of those combinations are mutated.

@friend analogy with eye colour doesn't work here as eye colour is determined by a set of genes alone (no environmental factors involved).
i think those possible genetic variations plus additional biological and environmental factors can explain differences between particular individuals and partly answer your question, how a person can change (or discover) his/her sexual preference later in life.

 

[friend]

@friend analogy with eye colour doesn't work here as eye colour is determined by a set of genes alone (no environmental factors involved).
i think those possible genetic variations plus additional biological and environmental factors can explain differences between particular individuals and partly answer your question, how a person can change (or discover) his/her sexual preference later in life.

i didnt know genes depended on environmental factors? are there any other genes besides this one that needs outside environmental factors to be activated? i never knew that. i thought genetics were a static thing, not open to variation.

 

[emwill02]

i didnt know genes depended on environmental factors? are there any other genes besides this one that needs outside environmental factors to be activated? i never knew that. i thought genetics were a static thing, not open to variation.

Well i would think they were as children do not have any sexuality at all. So when all of the hormones come it can easily be influenced by outside means. Eye colour cannot be though as it is from birth that you have it set.

 

[Mechi]

well genetics is more that you do have certain programmes some do get started by birth and are not that complicate in process (eye color for example... usually you do have the eyecolor of one of your parents), some of those programmes are started by perception and some do through life... like aging processes etc. and those processes are to influence by life... some do start only if you reach a certain age at all... some are dependant on health and life circumstances just like experiences, learning possibilities, environmental influences etc. ... some never get started although the 'programmes' are there... but even those programmes when running already are to influence by life itself again also... it's a process with countless possibilities and that's why also countless possible results.

That's what makes it interesting to do research... to find the most influential factors leading to a most likely result.
And then again when reading about examinations proclaiming certain results and that's why proclaiming certain conclusions... there's a reason why learning statistics makes sense... well just read my signature.

But again, I can't repeat that often enough... you're never at fault to question something served to you as being this or that way. So much is presented to us as if there's only one possible way to see things etc. It's never ever wrong to question things and to try to look into them and understand them yourself... simply because truth is never at risk.