Some people don't consider MJ to be a real songwriter

You just proved the definition of the Word, I wasn't starting an argument I know fine well what the Word Musician means after all being a Music student and also being a professional Musician, If you bothered to read what I said I gave Michael credit for coming up with the Music he herd in his head but In terms of producing the Music with real instruments someone else had to do it yeah ok Michael played instruments all credit to him, but he Isn't the Musician the majority of fans seem to think he is.

What exactly is your point. Im a principle double bass in a orchestra, and i would kill for michaels talent. I can play instruments probably better than he could, but see, he is a far more talented musician. I class him as a musician. I think someone who creates music, thinks music, feels music, is music, has to be a musician, rather than someone who can do none of this, but can just play an instrument.
 
Look at it this way playing an instrument is A LOT harder than Singing or Song Writeing, playing a Instrument takes years to pre-fect not saying being a Vocalist doesn't but there is a lot more work involved in playing an Instrument and being a Professional Pianist for the last 11 years I think I should know, ...

That's an insult to all those vocalists/MUSICIANS who have spent years in training just as you have as pianist. If you ever had seriously studied the human voice you would simply know that the human body is just as much a resonating instrument, as any mechanical instrument.

I know that it's very popular to look down on singers ('they wouldn't know how to sing a whole line without a pianist beating it into their brain') but trust me, especially the string sections will have plenty of jokes about pianists...everybody seems to think without them nothing would work- and that's very true. Any kind of ensemble activity relies upon each other.

I get really pissed of when Singers get all the credit of the Band or whatever yes they may have wrote Songs but In terms of acutally coming up with Sounds they didn't do that much it has to be said,

There is but one simple remedy: Become the great singer/songwriter on this planet. Write amazing tunes, play them AND sing them since you professed that singing is so very easy.

Ok in Michaels case he would beatbox melody's he herd in his head and get the Musicians to copy what he herd, the Songs were Michaels creation but the Musicianship came from the people who played the Music based on Michael's Interpretations as to what it sounded like in his head he may have came up with the Music piece but playing the Music someone else had to do it,I hope I made sense lol!.

I think it's worth to remember that MJ did not just come up with a melody but with whole arrangements, in his head.
Of course there we songs written by others or even arranged by other- but you'll find a ton of music in his entire recorded work that he wrote and arranged- in his head. The only difference is that someone like Mozart has been drilled and trained his entire life to be able to write down these things in a fashion that reflected the times.
Chopin wasn't the most famous pianist of his time but a composer whom the world loves until the end of time and beyond.

The trademark of a true musical genius is to know how to achieve the sound they hear in their head- and to be creative about how to get there. And if it means getting the experts of THEIR field to play for him- more power to him.
It simply means that he was humble enough to step aside on those occasions, where he felt it was necessary, in order to get the sound that he wanted. He had a vision for each sound, how each sound was supposed to feel and sound- and he simply went down whatever route necessary in order to create that sound.

It even showed in his language, to a degree. At 50 years old he has spent the majority of his life around professional musicians just as himself. He could easily have said "hold it longer" because I'm sure that someone of his level would at least heard of "bars", yes I'm talking about "The way you make me feel".
But it was is his preference to talk in imagery, "bathe in the moonlight", "you gotta let it simmer". In my mind he was the even the bigger musician there- because a true musical genius would have picked up his intention just from those images. They were a bit on auto pilot and he snatched 'em right out of that cozy comfy auto pilot.
I almost rolled on the floor when Bearden "translated" it into musician speak, "ok everybody, let's add two bars, or at least a bar". Add Travis Payne's facial expression to it and you can just slice the tension.

And he certainly dealt with plenty of musicians on the way...watching This Is It was quite humoring in that aspect. Between Bearden trying to impress him ("it should sound simpler") and the big dude there swinging his instrument around his back...there was no shortage of big opinions.
Yet he told Orianthi that it's her "time to shine and we will be right there with you" egging her own, coaxing it out of her. That was brilliant, humble and makes me love him even more. :wub::yes:

He was subtle in his communication, giving hand signals, watching who of the musicians would pick up on it.
Sometimes it was so subtle that people needed a reminder to actually watch him because he indeed was acting like a conductor (sometimes ignoring Ortega- as in Smooth Criminal, he knew what he wanted)- like in Beat It, he was giving exact directions, "I was showing you", or in "I just can't stop loving you" he had to sing "Breakdown" twice in order for everyone to get it, in "The way you make me feel"- "so you gotta watch me for that growl", or even telling the band what he wanted more of. "I'm not feeling that part enough".
He was acting like a conductor who needed to tell his orchestra "folks, look at me on occasion, alright?"

The thing is that he didn't feel like he needed public recognition by playing any instruments in public, he was focusing on other things. Very Wagner, very Gesamtkunstwerk...:yes:

By no means do I feel that any instrumentalists are of lesser value in music, I will kiss the ground and graves of pianists like Evgeny Kissin, Alfred Brendel and Art Tatum. Absolutely.
But I also adore those who write and those who sing. Everyone has their spot in music.

The more people understand that ensemble music works as a whole, the easier you get a result everyone can live with. I say that someone who has spent years as a cellist in orchestras, soprano who sang both solo and in an ensemble and as plain music lover.

MJ knew how to to achieve the sound he wanted and how to get there. Anybody who knows how to get there as he did- hats off to the genius.
 
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What exactly is your point. Im a principle double bass in a orchestra, and i would kill for michaels talent. I can play instruments probably better than he could, but see, he is a far more talented musician. I class him as a musician. I think someone who creates music, thinks music, feels music, is music, has to be a musician, rather than someone who can do none of this, but can just play an instrument.

You and me both.

People also forget that as a dancer you literally have to breathe the music. In a way you have to be a musician to even be able to dance. These things are all correlated. And d*mn, the man had a grace about him that is literally unmatched.

Michael Jackson knew exactly what it was that he excelled at. He knew himself. He didn't bother sitting on a bar chair fighting with a guitar just to prove a point to someone. He didn't have to prove that anymore.
 
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You just proved the definition of the Word, I wasn't starting an argument I know fine well what the Word Musician means after all being a Music student and also being a professional Musician, If you bothered to read what I said I gave Michael credit for coming up with the Music he herd in his head but In terms of producing the Music with real instruments someone else had to do it yeah ok Michael played instruments all credit to him, but he Isn't the Musician the majority of fans seem to think he is.

So you being a music student and professional musician I guess you consider yourself more of a musician than Michael Jackson. So that's where you are coming from! LOL. Then good luck to you to get as much recognition as a musician among fellow musicians as Michael Jackson did..... I sense a bit of professional arrogance in your posts.

I disagree with your arguments. Just because he needed other musicians to play his songs that discredits him as a musician? To me this argument simply doesn't make sense. Most of the musicians play in bands - most of them need other musicians too to realize the song they wrote, whether they play instruments or not.
 
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That's an insult to all those vocalists/MUSICIANS who have spent years in training just as you have as pianist. If you ever had seriously studied the human voice you would simply know that the human body is just as much a resonating instrument, as any mechanical instrument.

I know that it's very popular to look down on singers ('they wouldn't know how to sing a whole line without a pianist beating it into their brain') but trust me, especially the string sections will have plenty of jokes about pianists...everybody seems to think without them nothing would work- and that's very true. Any kind of ensemble activity relies upon each other.



There is but one simple remedy: Become the great singer/songwriter on this planet. Write amazing tunes, play them AND sing them since you professed that singing is so very easy.



I think it's worth to remember that MJ did not just come up with a melody but with whole arrangements, in his head.
Of course there we songs written by others or even arranged by other- but you'll find a ton of music in his entire recorded work that he wrote and arranged- in his head. The only difference is that someone like Mozart has been drilled and trained his entire life to be able to write down these things in a fashion that reflected the times.
Chopin wasn't the most famous pianist of his time but a composer whom the world loves until the end of time and beyond.

The trademark of a true musical genius is to know how to achieve the sound they hear in their head- and to be creative about how to get there. And if it means getting the experts of THEIR field to play for him- more power to him.
It simply means that he was humble enough to step aside on those occasions, where he felt it was necessary, in order to get the sound that he wanted. He had a vision for each sound, how each sound was supposed to feel and sound- and he simply went down whatever route necessary in order to create that sound.

It even showed in his language, to a degree. At 50 years old he has spent the majority of his life around professional musicians just as himself. He could easily have said "hold it longer" because I'm sure that someone of his level would at least heard of "bars", yes I'm talking about "The way you make me feel".
But it was is his preference to talk in imagery, "bathe in the moonlight", "you gotta let it simmer". In my mind he was the even the bigger musician there- because a true musical genius would have picked up his intention just from those images. They were a bit on auto pilot and he snatched 'em right out of that cozy comfy auto pilot.
I almost rolled on the floor when Bearden "translated" it into musician speak, "ok everybody, let's add two bars, or at least a bar". Add Travis Payne's facial expression to it and you can just slice the tension.

And he certainly dealt with plenty of musicians on the way...watching This Is It was quite humoring in that aspect. Between Bearden trying to impress him ("it should sound simpler") and the big dude there swinging his instrument around his back...there was no shortage of big opinions.
Yet he told Orianthi that it's her "time to shine and we will be right there with you" egging her own, coaxing it out of her. That was brilliant, humble and makes me love him even more. :wub::yes:

He was subtle in his communication, giving hand signals, watching who of the musicians would pick up on it.
Sometimes it was so subtle that people needed a reminder to actually watch him because he indeed was acting like a conductor (sometimes ignoring Ortega- as in Smooth Criminal, he knew what he wanted)- like in Beat It, he was giving exact directions, "I was showing you", or in "I just can't stop loving you" he had to sing "Breakdown" twice in order for everyone to get it, in "The way you make me feel"- "so you gotta watch me for that growl", or even telling the band what he wanted more of. "I'm not feeling that part enough".
He was acting like a conductor who needed to tell his orchestra "folks, look at me on occasion, alright?"

The thing is that he didn't feel like he needed public recognition by playing any instruments in public, he was focusing on other things. Very Wagner, very Gesamtkunstwerk...:yes:

By no means do I feel that any instrumentalists are of lesser value in music, I will kiss the ground and graves of pianists like Evgeny Kissin, Alfred Brendel and Art Tatum. Absolutely.
But I also adore those who write and those who sing. Everyone has their spot in music.

The more people understand that ensemble music works as a whole, the easier you get a result everyone can live with. I say that someone who has spent years as a cellist in orchestras, soprano who sang both solo and in an ensemble and as plain music lover.

MJ knew how to to achieve the sound he wanted and how to get there. Anybody who knows how to get there as he did- hats off to the genius.

Well said.

And BTW, to me creativity is the essence of art. So if I had to pick between a good instrumentalist who doesn't write music, just plays it on a very high level (or does write but not on a high level) and someone who is very creative in writing music (but doesn't play or play well instruments) - well I'd pick the latter as being the greater artist.
 
LOL Thriller_MJ, so you are a real musician and Michael is not? do you even listen to yourself? I don't know if to laugh or cry at your posts. you are arrogant and delusional. go back to school and do your homework well cuz you don't know what you are talking about.. Michael is not a musician?
Modulation Alert put it all well.
 
btw, you should check the credits on Mj's cd booklets..you will be amazed that I can assure you. Michael knew to play guitar, piano, drums & did beatbox. actually I'm checking right now the HIStory booklets and I see that on the credited list of guitarists & drummers Michael is right there too, he played instruments on his own songs too..sure not all only a few bur still.
 
So you being a music student and professional musician I guess you consider yourself more of a musician than Michael Jackson. So that's where you are coming from! LOL. Then good luck to you to get as much recognition as a musician among fellow musicians as Michael Jackson did..... I sense a bit of professional arrogance in your posts.

I disagree with your arguments. Just because he needed other musicians to play his songs that discredits him as a musician? To me this argument simply doesn't make sense. Most of the musicians play in bands - most of them need other musicians too to realize the song they wrote, whether they play instruments or not.

When did I ever say I was a better Musician than Michael Jackson I never once said it, all I said was he is a Songwriter, but a Musician he is not. I never once said I was better than him so stop putting words in my mouth ok?

I disagree with you when you said that Bands need other Musicians the only time a member from a Band needs another Musician is if they are doing a Solo project but in reality most Bands write & compose there own Songs without the help of anyone else in terms of Musical production, Ok sure if there Song had a Classical Influence then obviously they would get an orchestra to help with the recording process but there are many many successful bands who write & compose all there own material without the help of anyone else apart from Sound Engineers and all that stuff.
 
Maybe you should tell them that he is in the Songwriters Hall of Fame so :p

http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/exhibits/C116

http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/songs/detailed/C116

He also wrote film scores -

http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/songs/film_scores/C116


2004 13 GOING ON 30
2002 UNDERCOVER BROTHER
2001 ZOOLANDER
2001 RUSH HOUR 2
2000 CHARLIE’S ANGELS
2000 KYA KEHNA
2000 CENTER STAGE
1998 RUSH HOUR
1998 GHOSTS
1995 FREE WILLY 2: THE ADVENTURE HOME
1993 FREE WILLY
1989 BACK TO THE FUTURE, PART II
1988 MOONWALK
1987 SUPERMAN
1986 LOLA
1986 CAPTAIN EO
1972 BEN


Does that mean his music was used or he wrote new music for those films??
 
When did I ever say I was a better Musician than Michael Jackson I never once said it, all I said was he is a Songwriter, but a Musician he is not. I never once said I was better than him so stop putting words in my mouth ok?

I disagree with you when you said that Bands need other Musicians the only time a member from a Band needs another Musician is if they are doing a Solo project but in reality most Bands write & compose there own Songs without the help of anyone else in terms of Musical production, Ok sure if there Song had a Classical Influence then obviously they would get an orchestra to help with the recording process but there are many many successful bands who write & compose all there own material without the help of anyone else apart from Sound Engineers and all that stuff.

Well, you said you are a musician and Michael Jackson is not (and you again repeat it in this post). So if he is not even a musician and you are, then from that the logical consequence is that you consider yourself better there.

And what I meant with bands is that if you are in a band then you rely on each other and most musicians need other people to fully realize their vision. It's not just Michael Jackson. That doesn't make them less of a musician. I don't know if you realized MJ was a solo artist, so it's only natural that he would bring in other musicians to play for him on his records to fully realize his vision.
 
He also wrote film scores -

http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/songs/film_scores/C116


2004 13 GOING ON 30
2002 UNDERCOVER BROTHER
2001 ZOOLANDER
2001 RUSH HOUR 2
2000 CHARLIE’S ANGELS
2000 KYA KEHNA
2000 CENTER STAGE
1998 RUSH HOUR
1998 GHOSTS
1995 FREE WILLY 2: THE ADVENTURE HOME
1993 FREE WILLY
1989 BACK TO THE FUTURE, PART II
1988 MOONWALK
1987 SUPERMAN
1986 LOLA
1986 CAPTAIN EO
1972 BEN


Does that mean his music was used or he wrote new music for those films??

he didnt release any score music.
it only means that MJ songs / bits of MJ songs / or cover versions / references were played in these films.
 
LOL Thriller_MJ, so you are a real musician and Michael is not? do you even listen to yourself? I don't know if to laugh or cry at your posts. you are arrogant and delusional. go back to school and do your homework well cuz you don't know what you are talking about.. Michael is not a musician?
Modulation Alert put it all well.
Well stated, but i will tell you, you are wasting your time on this with particular member.... she/he wont understand.... advice, jut let her/him be :lol:

btw, you should check the credits on Mj's cd booklets..you will be amazed that I can assure you. Michael knew to play guitar, piano, drums & did beatbox. actually I'm checking right now the HIStory booklets and I see that on the credited list of guitarists & drummers Michael is right there too, he played instruments on his own songs too..sure not all only a few bur still.

I cant believe some people listens to music and dont even bother in reading the booklets.... thats a SHAME and a disrespect to artists like Michael Jackson and the ones of his caliber... Michael DID play instruments, its all in the BOOKLETS of the ORIGINAL DISCS....
so to the person saying that one is only a musician when plays instruments apart of his voice, creativity, talent, etc, YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT IT ANYWAYS...but even if he didnt( which is a lie) he was a musician, and as if that was not enough, he was a GENIUS one.
 
If Michael Jackson needed/wanted to play instruments he would have done so, that's that. He didn't feel the need too because he had different ways of expressing his music. Ways in which are MUCH, MUCH harder to than through instruments.
 
the idea is what counts, and the melody and lyrics are Michael's so there is no question about who is the songwriter..
 
If Michael Jackson needed/wanted to play instruments he would have done so, that's that. He didn't feel the need too because he had different ways of expressing his music. Ways in which are MUCH, MUCH harder to than through instruments.

yes, but the thing is that Michael DID played instruments, not in live concerts, but on his albums!!
i mean, i just got to laugh here, :lol: what part of that is not understandable????, lol, how many times does it has to be said...., wow!,

do the ones saying he was not a musician really think he wasnt able to play instruments??? do you really think that??? lol, you must be crazy (with all respect) i mean you are talking 'bout one of the MOST CREATIVE MUSICAL GENIUSES.... he could do what he wanted, believe me....

, but the thing also is that he was not simply a rocker who stands up and plays a guitar, piano, drums etc, because ON stage he was ALSO a performer, the greatest performer that ever walked this planet....

i mean... is that so hard to undertand???? really is it??? :lol:
 
Michael's main method of songwriting has been using his voice. Bill Botrell has said that MJ sang the guitar riff from Black Or White to him and people who have worked in the studio with Michael has said that they saw him singing the strings parts of his songs to a room full of string players. Michael could play instruments but his main instrument of choice was his voice.
 
Michael's main method of songwriting has been using his voice. Bill Botrell has said that MJ sang the guitar riff from Black Or White to him and people who have worked in the studio with Michael has said that they saw him singing the strings parts of his songs to a room full of string players. Michael could play instruments but his main instrument of choice was his voice.


I KNOW, but my point here is that he did had the ability to play instruments! and he did it on many of his albums, thats all im saying, im not saying he didnt used his voice, my, im a fan of him, i know all about MJ, just like you :yes:
 
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