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Some people don't consider MJ to be a real songwriter

analogue

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The other day i was talking with one of my friends who have been playing piano for about 10 years and he asks ''Hey is it true that Michael Jackson don't write his own songs?'' and i responded with ''No that's not true, he does write most of his own songs'' and then my friend asked me what is MJ's songwriting process like and then i told him about how MJ hears all the music sounds in his head and then he sings/beatboxes the sounds into a tape recorder and then he'll go into the studio and sing all the musical parts he came up with to his studio musicians. My friends then says ''Oh well in that case Michael Jackson can't be called a real songwriter because a real songwriter will be able to play an instrument himself and not need to sing the parts of the instruments to other musicians to play for him'' and then i came back and said ''But the voice is an instrument''

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
 
If you write the lyrics and the melody then you're a songwriter.

Mike was one in the truest sense of the word i.e. (with the exception of most of Invincible) it wasn't a huge team of songwriters with Mike changing the odd work and claiming a credit.

Billie Jean
Don't Stop...
Smooth Criminal
Beat It
Dirty Diana
Who Is It
Black Or White (bar the rap)
Earth Song
They Don't Care About Us


...and many, many others all single-handedly written by him.

This will be one of those threads that give people another reason to hate anyone that has ever questioned MJ!
 
That's silly.

Songwriting is coming up with lyrics with a melody. You can just sing it. You don't need to write the MUSIC or produce it yourself.

That would be a composer/producer.
 
Yeah that's ridiculous, Michael can write the songs.
 
and it's not just my friend who has said this to me. I have found that people who think that MJ is not a real songwriter usually play instruments themselves and they're attidute has always been ''If you dont' play an instrument then your not worthy of being called a songwriter'' and these people feel that MJ is taking credit for all these musicians hard hard work of learning instruments

Yeah i don't get it either
 
I've never heard that in my thousands of music related conversations.

I guess the obvious reponse is 'If he didn't write Billie Jean, who did?'

And kick them in the knackers if they say Quincy.
 
These people should know that Michael was an instrument...his voice...the way he put the stuff together...the instrument noises he was able to make with his mouth...the way he used other things besides instruments to make the noises of instruments is true genius...I wish they would recognize him for just that his true genius.
 
If your friend actually believes that, slap him across the head!... :hysterical:

Michael is one regarded as one of the greatest songwriters ever..

Having the greatest voice in music history > playing an instrument that anyone can learn.
 
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analogue said:
The other day i was talking with one of my friends who have been playing piano for about 10 years and he asks ''Hey is it true that Michael Jackson don't write his own songs?'' and i responded with ''No that's not true, he does write most of his own songs'' and then my friend asked me what is MJ's songwriting process like and then i told him about how MJ hears all the music sounds in his head and then he sings/beatboxes the sounds into a tape recorder and then he'll go into the studio and sing all the musical parts he came up with to his studio musicians. My friends then says ''Oh well in that case Michael Jackson can't be called a real songwriter because a real songwriter will be able to play an instrument himself and not need to sing the parts of the instruments to other musicians to play for him'' and then i came back and said ''But the voice is an instrument''

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
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Your friend is an idiot, or maybe just really close minded. The way Michael writes songs is incredible. For one thing often times MJ did play instruments on demos and he did play a lot of instruments on the History, BotDF, and Invincible albums.

But the mere fact that he is talented enough to make those melodies and beats with his mouth is extraordinary. He can play piano if he wants to, but he doesn't need an actual piano. He is actually capable of making the sounds that instruments make but with his mouth.
 
Im a musician and i can tell you that is the highest load of ignorance ive ever heard. Genius' of the past, such as Mozart Tchaikovsky etc. all wrote their most famous themes in their head. They went to the piano to help arrange and harmonise their ideas, although they could have done this in their heads as well if they didn't play an instrument. Talented to regular songwriters have history of composing at the piano or the guitar, nearly all genius' originally write their material in their heads. It is actually an encouraging sign based on previous historic figures who have used this method that our beliefs in mikes genius are genuine. All the musical genius' of the past did things the way michael did.
 
Michael does play intruments ... guitar piano and drums
and he does create melodies on the piano according to T Riley
and plays piano according to Bruce Wedien and his singing coach Seth Riggs

But regardless his voice is an instrument he creates the melodies
the beat the strings the horns ,percussion first with his voice and
has it translated to the intruments he wants to play it (THATS GENIOUS)
 
xthunderx2 said:
These people should know that Michael was an instrument...his voice...the way he put the stuff together...the instrument noises he was able to make with his mouth...the way he used other things besides instruments to make the noises of instruments is true genius...I wish they would recognize him for just that his true genius.
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cannot agree more.

one of my fav demo:
 
Since when has being a songwriter meant you have to play an instrument.

If you came up with the melody and wrote the lyrics then of course your the songwriter........

Im sorry but your friend sounds like one of those people who think they are gods gift to music just because they learnt to play an instrument. Which pretty much anybody can do anyway..... Just because they learnt to play an instrument they think they know it all. I have come across this a lot.

A songwriter means basically.......the person who created the song or just wrote the lyrics and came up with the melody. Its far from logical to say an instrument needs to be involved.

With that method he came up with some of the greatest songs of all time, so lets not doubt it.
 
L.T.D said:
Since when has being a songwriter meant you have to play an instrument.

If you came up with the melody and wrote the lyrics then of course your the songwriter........

Im sorry but your friend sounds like one of those people who think they are gods gift to music just because they learnt to play an instrument. Which pretty much anybody can do anyway..... Just because they learnt to play an instrument they think they know it all. I have come across this a lot.

A songwriter means basically.......the person who created the song or just wrote the lyrics and came up with the melody. Its far from logical to say an instrument needs to be involved.

With that method he came up with some of the greatest songs of all time, so lets not doubt it.
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With that method almost every great piece of music in history was conceived. Im Principle double bass in an orchestra, and i know that attitude that people haveb is ignorance, playing and composing are too totally differen't things. Anyone who says they always go hand in hand is a fool. Michael could write better songs than most of the worlds performing elite, people who play piano concertos, or insane guitarists or what not. He had a gift.

It's just another incidence of people who can't understand Michael. He is where he is a for a reason.
 
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Tony R said:
I've never heard that in my thousands of music related conversations.

I guess the obvious reponse is 'If he didn't write Billie Jean, who did?'

And kick them in the knackers if they say Quincy.
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:lol: this is exactly what i was about to post.
who wrote Billie Jean, Dangerous and all the others if he didn't!
then you can do this to your friend :tease: :punk: :dancin:
 
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I'm confused here, last time I checked if you write lyrics of a song you're a songwriter. The fact that Michael didn't need an instrument to compose melodies is a testament to the genius of him. What he could do with his voice is simply extraordinary. All you have to do is listen to Who Is It to see how Michael can compose melodies using his voice alone. It astounds me. Plus, also last time I check, Michael is in the Songwriters Hall of Fame.
 
If what Michael did isnt considered song writing. Then perhaps everyone should just quit song writing and do what MJ did, because it sure was successful! haha

Even though it is songwriting.

Personally it sounds to me like your friend was just in a opposing mood if that makes sense. Or just felt like winding you up.

He started of by asking if it was true that MJ didnt write his own songs, then when you told him he did write a lot of his own songs, he tried to discredit the process in which MJ created a song.

I have found that when someone see's that you love a person so much and hold them on a pedestal. The fact that you can see that person doing no wrong can for some reason bother people and they will try and discredit that person to bring you down to earth so to speak.

I hope that makes sense.
 
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MJultimatemusiclegen said:
With that method almost every great piece of music in history was conceived. Im Principle double bass in an orchestra, and i know that attitude that people haveb is ignorance, playing and composing are too totally differen't things. Anyone who says they always go hand in hand is a fool. Michael could write better songs than most of the worlds performing elite, people who play piano concertos, or insane guitarists or what not. He had a gift.

It's just another incidence of people who can't understand Michael. He is where he is a for a reason.
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No kidding. The ability to play an instrument at virtuoso level does not mean one is able to come up with a genius composition. Not to mention that Michael basically arranged the whole thing too- with his voice, singing separate parts until they made sense in an arrangement.

A lot of people do indeed improve on a piano for example but that's exactly what people like Mozart (if he did, he'd call it variations to a degree) didn't do, he heard it in his head, or how else would someone like Beethoven write music when practically deaf?

All those people who complain that MJ isn't a "songwriter": Please go write a 4 minutes song, arrange it and record it in a demo so that we can hear it and JUDGE YOU MERCILESSLY. Most people don't even understand what it takes to even create a 3 minute music piece from the music inside of you, not a preloaded riff in your computer or guitar hero.

I often wished though that instead of beating his child up, Joe Jackson would have taken the time with tutors to teach Michael music notation- not because I think that what he accomplished wasn't genius- but so that for example we could have heard the classical stuff he was writing in his head because that's were he was relying on an arranger who is now in possession of it- and I so would wish to hear it.
 
Modulation Alert said:
No kidding. The ability to play an instrument at virtuoso level does not mean one is able to come up with a genius composition. Not to mention that Michael basically arranged the whole thing too- with his voice, singing separate parts until they made sense in an arrangement.

A lot of people do indeed improve on a piano for example but that's exactly what people like Mozart (if he did, he'd call it variations to a degree) didn't do, he heard it in his head, or how else would someone like Beethoven write music when practically deaf?

All those people who complain that MJ isn't a "songwriter": Please go write a 4 minutes song, arrange it and record it in a demo so that we can hear it and JUDGE YOU MERCILESSLY. Most people don't even understand what it takes to even create a 3 minute music piece from the music inside of you, not a preloaded riff in your computer or guitar hero.

I often wished though that instead of beating his child up, Joe Jackson would have taken the time with tutors to teach Michael music notation- not because I think that what he accomplished wasn't genius- but so that for example we could have heard the classical stuff he was writing in his head because that's were he was relying on an arranger who is now in possession of it- and I so would wish to hear it.
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Yes, i wish we would have got to hear the classical stuff. Or rather 'film music'. I think he could have created some fantastic themes as he has a fantastic ability for melody.
 
Well some people say he can't write poetry either. I think when it all balls down to it, When most of those hits are mostly his with his name on Lyrics and Music and the groove is there and He broke all the records that had never been broken before,who's to question ? He was a creative genius eventhough he did have others to write for him but you know he wrote the songs when you feel his vibes.
 
:doh: That's not true. I think his method of making music makes him even more of a genius that he's able to do that. It's all right there in his head. The musicians just helped transcribe it for him, but how often does that happen, that the music is just right there in front of you. Entire songs. Michael was really unique and gifted in that way.
 
analogue said:
The other day i was talking with one of my friends who have been playing piano for about 10 years and he asks ''Hey is it true that Michael Jackson don't write his own songs?'' and i responded with ''No that's not true, he does write most of his own songs'' and then my friend asked me what is MJ's songwriting process like and then i told him about how MJ hears all the music sounds in his head and then he sings/beatboxes the sounds into a tape recorder and then he'll go into the studio and sing all the musical parts he came up with to his studio musicians. My friends then says ''Oh well in that case Michael Jackson can't be called a real songwriter because a real songwriter will be able to play an instrument himself and not need to sing the parts of the instruments to other musicians to play for him'' and then i came back and said ''But the voice is an instrument''

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

if your friend had to ask, then your friend knows MJ was a real songwriter. everybody knows that there is no one rule for being a songwriter, except that you can receive melodies and/or lyrics in your head. otherwise we'll have guitarists arguing with pianists, and vocalists arguing with violinists, etc. on into eternity.

what about people who have computers, and use them as instruments? if u can use a computer, and the melody is in your head, you are a songwriter. what about Bobby Mcferrin who wrote 'don't worry be happy'? that was totally a vocal song, with NO instrumentation and it went to number 1 on the charts. and it was his only hit. the rest of his songs had regular instrumentation on them. here is that song that went to number 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9K4BKkLaCI
 
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People can be so ridiculous sometimes. Writing the lyrics is writing the song. Songs are meant to be sung, so the voice should be the instrument of choice.

Otherwise, one would be composing a melody. In any case, Michael did play the piano and he's the one that had the ideas, so as far as I am concerned, he's a songwriter.

So...does your friend just single Michael out or does she react this way to every singer who has written their own songs?
 
what a load of BS, you don't need to play an instrument to be classed as a songwritter, if you wrote the song it is your song, its as simple as that !!
 
MJultimatemusiclegen said:
Yes, i wish we would have got to hear the classical stuff. Or rather 'film music'. I think he could have created some fantastic themes as he has a fantastic ability for melody.
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Yeah, I remember the "film music" comment. Didn't Michael say you can do whatever you want, it needs a melody that people can hum? Given his ability for melody, I agree with what you said about themes, that's what film scores are all about.

Aside from that I find that division hard, film scores that are being composed for a certain movies have very specific requirements, almost the way Tschaikovsky was being told to write "20 bars of uplifting music" etc.

And in my mind composers like Danny Elfman write contemporary classic music, that's what I hear in a lot of his themes, especially the Burton collaborations.

Gosh, just imagine, Michael directing and writing the score, now THAT would have been another level again.
 
Well guys, you certainly set the record straight on this one. I have nothing good to add, so I will shut up and be nice.
 
analogue said:
The other day i was talking with one of my friends who have been playing piano for about 10 years and he asks ''Hey is it true that Michael Jackson don't write his own songs?'' and i responded with ''No that's not true, he does write most of his own songs'' and then my friend asked me what is MJ's songwriting process like and then i told him about how MJ hears all the music sounds in his head and then he sings/beatboxes the sounds into a tape recorder and then he'll go into the studio and sing all the musical parts he came up with to his studio musicians. My friends then says ''Oh well in that case Michael Jackson can't be called a real songwriter because a real songwriter will be able to play an instrument himself and not need to sing the parts of the instruments to other musicians to play for him'' and then i came back and said ''But the voice is an instrument''

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Tell your friend it's a stupid argument. A songwriter is whoever writes songs, period. The method is not important. Instruments are just a mean of expressing music, not superior to, let's say, the human voice.
 
thought a songwriter is someone who writes a song! doh!
 
L.T.D said:
Im sorry but your friend sounds like one of those people who think they are gods gift to music just because they learnt to play an instrument. Which pretty much anybody can do anyway..... Just because they learnt to play an instrument they think they know it all. I have come across this a lot.
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So true. Anybody with a little talent can play instruments, to be honest, so that's actually not such a big deal. But it takes mega talent to be a genius songwriter! That was Michael! And he didn't even need an instrument for that, other than his voice. I would challenge your friend, if Michael was not a songwriter and he is because of his knowledge of playing instruments, so I would challenge your friend to write as many great songs as Michael did! Then let's see who is a songwriter.

Playing instruments doesn't mean you are creative. On the other hand you can be massively creative without learning how to play instruments. Playing an instrument is a learnt ability, but creativity is inborn and something that a lot fewer people have - and even fewer are creative geniuses.
 
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