Raymone Bain Sues MJ Estate

[Dangerous Incorporated]

MJs Estate has made MORE than enough money to cover the debts. If they say they dont have enough money, its just an excuse to sell the ATV catalogue to $ony.

 

[mj_smile]

(..)
One thing I just read, if the estate does not have money to pay ALL the creditors, they might have to sell some properties. There are so many claims filed in MJ's case, I hope the administrators will not have to sell anything.
That may explain why they concluded the contract with Sony so rapidly. they will probably use the advance payments from Sony on "This is it" & the upcoming new album, to pay all creditors and don't forget the HUGE death tax that will be slapped on MJ's estate. in 2009, the death tax was 45% ...45% of the remaining value of the estate. Wonder if they will have to pay taxes on his portion of Sony/ATV...???

Do I need to file tax returns for the estate?
It is likely that you will have to file at least one tax return as personal representative. The taxes to be paid by the personal representative are frequently thought of as only death taxes, i.e., federal estate tax and California estate tax.

However, you also may need to file income tax returns for the decedent and/or the estate. The representative must file all tax returns due and pay all taxes due. As personal representative, you may become personally liable for the payment of taxes if, before the estate is distributed and you are discharged, you had notice of any tax obligations or failed to exercise due diligence as to whether any tax obligations existed.

You may also become liable for any penalties or interest that may assessed on account of late filing, undervaluation, or other deficiencies in the filing of returns.

A common area of misunderstanding lies in fixing the responsibility for filing various tax returns and other documents required for federal and state tax purposes. It is strongly recommended that you retain a professional tax preparer or accountant who is familiar with the tax requirements that apply to a decedent and his or her estate.

However, some general information follows as to the requirements for filing the decedent's final income tax return, fiduciary income tax returns, and estate tax returns.

I wish people would read on these things before they accuse the estate admins of selling MJ off to Sony and other nonsense. They will need lots of cash...to settle the estate & pay the death taxes. And while MJ had some very valuable assets (Sony/ATV, MiJac, Neverland and other properties) most fans would be up in arms if they sold these. So they need to get cash and LOTS OF IT one way or another. Yes..MJ sold 31 Millions records...but not all the money is going to the estate. They probably need a lot more just to settle the 45% death tax.

I really think these two men are doing a great job for MJ's kids.

I wish this too .. therefore I could not let DIs comment above without my contradiction (= to repeat your comment).

Yepp!

 

[Dutchie]

I'm making a claim too. You see Mr. Jackson never came to my country. He should have performed in the city I live in. That was a vary malicious and inconsiderate act on Mr. Jackson's behalf. I ask the estate that they compensate for the emotional implications of Mr. Jackson's behavior. I want $300,000 for all the suffering I was subjected to by Mr. Jackson.

I'm suing the estate too.

I mean, after 1997 Michael NEVER came to my country again, he only went to London (or "Londin"...as Michael pronounced it...) and by him doing so I was forced to drive across my country to get to the airport -thus spending a fortune on gas-, then pay loads of money for parking, get on an airplane, fly to England, sleep in a cheap-ass hotel (Michael would never offer to put me up in a 5 star hotel...how inconsiderate. Me, the biggest fan of all time who bought all his records including his biggest selling record of all time: "Prince - the hits" :smilerolleyes and because my cheap ass hotels didn't have breakfast included, I had to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner at "Subway", which has caused significant weight increase.

:mello:

That's IT....I'm suing!!! :ranting

 

[Sophielo]

Hell let's all sue the estate! Hell I'll see Raymone Bain as well for almost making me miss my exam because of the after party cock up.

 

[jadore]

mickey mouse and minnie mouse going to sued his estate because they wasn't happy when they took pictures with Michael throughout the years their claim is when the saw that the powerpuff girls was going to make an appearance in Michael Music video scream Mickey and Minnie became fed up their publicist by the name of Dick Tracy is very up set because he felt Michael Jackson smooth Criminal was a spin off from his movie even thro he was an made up characther. Next Raymone Bain is working on her documentry witch features MJ moments when Michael knock her over the head with a soda bottle because she stole chocolate cookies from his cooke Jar.

Source CTNW.com

:hysterical: All these lawsuits are so ridiculous:lmao:

 

[Memefan]

MJs Estate has made MORE than enough money to cover the debts. If they say they dont have enough money, its just an excuse to sell the ATV catalogue to $ony.

Care to elaborate?

Just your personal gut feeling isn't enough.

How much do you think the death tax is? How much $$ will they need to settle the claims filed against the estate? How much was MJ's debt before he passed?

Based on your best estimate, how much of the $$ money made since he passed will go to his estate (Movie, albums, memorabilia)??

 

[144000]

Care to elaborate?

Just your personal gut feeling isn't enough.

How much do you think the death tax is? How much $$ will they need to settle the claims filed against the estate? How much was MJ's debt before he passed?

Based on your best estimate, how much of the $$ money made since he passed will go to his estate (Movie, albums, memorabilia)??

based on many's 'estimates' about MJ's finances, in the past 20 years, he should have been broke, long ago. but he's not.

isn't an estimate the same as a 'gut feeling'?

what is amazing is how many people are going after this 'broke' individual, with lawsuits. must be a gut feeling he's rich.

of course, people have been suing him since he was fourteen years old. i have an estimate as to why that is. envy. and MJ never filed for bankruptcy, since he was..beginning his career, while others like Barry Manilow, Donald Trump, and Abraham Lincoln have filed for bankruptcy. so MJ's financial wizardry was great, from the beginning, long before he hired his present lawyers. what i love about Donald Trump, is he admits greatness when he sees it. MJ is the reason why his kids can relax about their future.

hark! what's that song i just heard at the lakers basketball game? 'sweet caroline'. and neil diamond is on the big tron screen in the arena, and smiling. and the audience is cheering. hark! what's that song i just heard? leona lewis. Hark! what's that song i just heard by Sade?? Hark!! and that's just two radio stations in los angeles, let alone, the world. forget about the fact that the diamond song is played nearly two hundred times a year, at boston red sox games. and i just heard it, yesterday.

get my point? kaching for MJ's kids.

and i hardly scratched the surface.

 

[twinklEE]

The 4-month limit is not set in stone. It all depends on the letters sent out to the potential creditors.

http://www.scselfservice.org/probate/prop/process.htm

One thing I just read, if the estate does not have money to pay ALL the creditors, they might have to sell some properties. There are so many claims filed in MJ's case, I hope the administrators will not have to sell anything.
That may explain why they concluded the contract with Sony so rapidly. they will probably use the advance payments from Sony on "This is it" & the upcoming new album, to pay all creditors and don't forget the HUGE death tax that will be slapped on MJ's estate. in 2009, the death tax was 45% ...45% of the remaining value of the estate. Wonder if they will have to pay taxes on his portion of Sony/ATV...???



I wish people would read on these things before they accuse the estate admins of selling MJ off to Sony and other nonsense. They will need lots of cash...to settle the estate & pay the death taxes. And while MJ had some very valuable assets (Sony/ATV, MiJac, Neverland and other properties) most fans would be up in arms if they sold these. So they need to get cash and LOTS OF IT one way or another. Yes..MJ sold 31 Millions records...but not all the money is going to the estate. They probably need a lot more just to settle the 45% death tax.

I really think these two men are doing a great job for MJ's kids.

Michael had a separate trust set up to take care of the death taxes. Some docs were released back in summer. So that's being taken care off. Those fans are the ones who love conspiracy and drama quiet frankly I don't see anyone being interested in this kind of conspiracy talk 5 years from now non conspiracy fans including.

 

[Memefan]

based on many's 'estimates' about MJ's finances, in the past 20 years, he should have been broke, long ago. but he's not.

isn't an estimate the same as a 'gut feeling'?

Nope. When you want to estimate something you need to provide hypothesis, calculations how you came to that conclusion. Even if it is not precise or accurate. Example, a couple of threads back, SC estimated that MJ-related revenue (not the money the estate has earned since MJ passed) were about 1-1.2 billions. He provided the calculations of how he came up with that dollar figure.



Wikipedia:
Estimation is the calculated approximation of a result which is usable even if input data may be incomplete or uncertain.

A gut feeling, or gut reaction, is a visceral emotional reaction to something

Keywords: Visceral & EMOTIONAL


But I agree with the rest of your post. But I will wait for DI to provide her own estimate.

Thank you TwinklEE for that piece of information...I remember reading that that insurance was nullified because someone "forgot" to pay the bill. So, i obviously had the wrong info.

 

[ginvid]

I remember reading somewhere a while ago that the tax MJ was going to have to pay was like $88 million. Claims against the estate were calculated at some 20 something million by TMZ (even though I think they missed a few inless those were just deemed not credible). His debt before he died was calculated at being 300 to 500 million depending on who you ask. We don't know how many of those claims were included in that figure. The estate issued a statement a long time ago saying the estate was solvent. What that means is beyond us. What that includes is beyond us. We don't know what that all entailed and what the estate was adding into it to get that figure. It ws also said MJ was worth 1.8 billion in property, etc.

But I also thought that MJ, when he was alive had worked out some plan to get completely out of debt. I thought I heard that. But I heard thexecutors of the estate said the catalog is not for sale. If they try and sale it to supposedly "Pay off debts" then even I will cry conspiracy.

 

[Sophielo]

If the catalogue ever goes on sale that's when I will begin to question everything. I already question enough but if they catalogue ever goes on sale then god knows how I'll react to that news.

 

[Memefan]

I remember reading somewhere a while ago that the tax MJ was going to have to pay was like $88 million. Claims against the estate were calculated at some 20 something million by TMZ (even though I think they missed a few inless those were just deemed not credible). His debt before he died was calculated at being 300 to 500 million depending on who you ask. We don't know how many of those claims were included in that figure. The estate issued a statement a long time ago saying the estate was solvent. What that means is beyond us. What that includes is beyond us. We don't know what that all entailed and what the estate was adding into it to get that figure. It ws also said MJ was worth 1.8 billion in property, etc.

But I also thought that MJ, when he was alive had worked out some plan to get completely out of debt. I thought I heard that. But I heard thexecutors of the estate said the catalog is not for sale. If they try and sale it to supposedly "Pay off debts" then even I will cry conspiracy.

When they say the estate is solvent, it simply means the assets ( cash, short termed investments, Sony-ATV, Neverland, MiJac, Properties) outweigh the liabilities (loans, credit lines, credit cards, any judgments from lawsuits but exclude the recent lawsuits filed against the estate as there are no judgement yet).

MJ's always had assets, his problem was liquidity...cash. Because people were robbing him blind...smh:doh:

If they do sell it, it will probably out of their control. I could see that happen if they lose several upcoming lawsuits (mainly the All Goods entertainment farce). The government could force them to sell some assets to settle the tax, The bank (I think Barclays has that 272M loan)...secured creditors can force the sell of assets for liquidity.. But hopefully, that won't happen for MJ's 3 kids' sake.

If the catalogue ever goes on sale that's when I will begin to question everything. I already question enough but if they catalogue ever goes on sale then god knows how I'll react to that news.

Don't think it will happen. If they need money that badly, they will sell Neverland before the catalogue. Branca was very adamant against it last september in his interview w/ AP.

I think one of the reasons they signed the contract so quickly w/ Sony is so they could get advances for different project, and get more liquidity. Sony has bailed MJ out a couple of times, even though fans don't want to admit it.

They bailed him out after the 1st child molestation came out (they giving him millions of $ for half of ATV and creating that new entity, they also came in 2007 when Darrien Dash & Prescient were suing him for 48 M$ (thank you Randy Jackson & Stabler).

Sony backed him and he settled out of court with Prescient.

 

[ivy]

Well I have some estimates

In regards to revenue:

Example, a couple of threads back, SC estimated that MJ-related revenue (not the money the estate has earned since MJ passed) were about 1-1.2 billions. He provided the calculations of how he came up with that dollar figure.

I'll go with SC's calculations. but it's important to remember that in that post Smoothcriminal05 said that it's gross income which means that you need to subtract every other person and businesses share, subtract costs, fees, salaries paid etc. Then you'll need to pay income taxes on that. In California (over $1M income) you pay 35% to federal taxes and 10% to state taxes - which means half of the money earned will go to income taxes.

Then The estate cannot use all of the incoming money to pay for the debt. They need to set aside some money to pay for children's expenses, staff salaries, house maintenance expenses etc before you can pay back debts.

plus we don't know if the $250M deal with sony is paid upfront or if that will be paid over the length of that deal (over 7 years). Smoothcriminal's income calculation assumes that the estate gets that money upfront.

In short about the income - even if the gross income could seem to be high - the net income after the taxes will be much more lower.

in terms to current debt - this is my estimation from another thread - which is quite in sync with wall street journal

Here are the reported numbers with links

"The Fortress loans were coming due yet again at the end of December 2007. Barclays refinanced the $300 million loan against Sony/ATV from Fortress. HSBC (HBC) lent $30 million against MiJac. Plainfield Asset Management, a hedge fund, loaned another $40 million against MiJac at a 16% interest rate on terms that allowed Jackson to defer payments while the amount due grew."

also

"Under terms of an agreement struck with Jackson after Colony purchased the note on the property for $23.5 million" (they would have to pay this amount back if they want to get the full ownership of Neverland back).

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/23/news...tune/index.htm

From TMZ reports about the creditors claims "So checking the board again, we're now over $26.5 million!"

http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/22/michae...claim-lawsuit/

So the starting debt is 300M for Sony/ATV + $70M for Mijac + $24M for Neverland + $27M for creditors claims = $420M

The payment info is from the WSJ article about the new deal

"The estate is likely to pay off about $125 million in debt by the end of this year, including $35 million owed to AEG Live, the promoter that was to stage a series of concerts by Mr. Jackson in London."

so 125-35 = $90M is being paid for the existing loans

so by basic math we can see that the estate is to be still in debt by $420-90 = $330M

WSJ reports a similar number for the current remaining debt

The estate is likely to refinance another $325 million backed by Mr. Jackson's two biggest assets: Sony/ATV Music Publishing, his venture with Sony that owns copyrights to 251 Beatles songs; and his 2,600-acre Neverland Valley Ranch outside Santa Barbara, Calif.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

I think it is safe to say that there's still around $300M in loans/debt that has to be paid.

Of course as the deals are being made, and as the money comes in -such as from the sony deal- the debt is being paid and getting smaller.

ps: I didn't consider AllGood's Lawsuit at all. but if you take into consideration and the estate loses that lawsuit (or reaches some sort of a settlement) they could be required to pay up to $300M to Allgood as well. They might be keeping some cash (and not paying existing debts) just in case for similar lawsuits etc.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

in 2007 mj was worth 1.7 billion according to court documents. the debt when he left was around 100mill (according to those who saw the docs.this figure was well b5 june 25th) not 500 mill. it was never that figure to start with. the debt was orignally between 300-400 and that has been paid of since around 2006 when mj set up a trust fund where all the money he made from the sony/ATV went straight into that fund and went to paying the debt off. mj had around a 5 year deal to pay it off. it would have been paid off by around 2011.so we are now at 2010 so you do the maths interms of what he owed pre june 25th and what he would owe now considering the payment plan would have ended in 2011. mj is the only person who has a plan and is paying the money back yet according to the media thedebt increases by 100's of millions. funny that!

if u look at all the lawsuits against the estate many are for " small" Amounts. thousands or 100's of thous. theres a few crazy ones from the likes of rowe and bain (if bain is still going with that) obvioulsy they will be contested and from the evidence we have seen those cases have no legal standing. but all the others are pocket change.

yes if anything happens to the sony/atv i will start to wonder aswell as theres no reason what so ever for that to go anywhere ever.

 

[ivy]

elusive - you are forgetting the interest rate on the debt. the interest rate is reported to be 16% as from the article shows.

so when you think of the initial $400M debt each year it would increase by $64M due to interest on the loan.

reportedly Michael was earning between $50-70M from the catalogs, loyalties.

so any money earned will cover the interest but the principal debt balance will remain almost the same.

that's the reason why the debt stayed pretty much the same unfortunately. (and also why people say that Michael needed to do the TII concerts, auction his personal stuff in 09 etc etc).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

They bailed him out after the 1st child molestation came out (they giving him millions of $ for half of ATV and creating that new entity,

dont know what u mean by that. the merging of the sony/atv cat was a business deal. hows that a bail out. sony paid mj 100 mill to merge his cat with theres. its wasnt a loan/bail out in any sense of the word and happened around 95 ish

 

[144000]

Nope. When you want to estimate something you need to provide hypothesis, calculations how you came to that conclusion. Even if it is not precise or accurate. Example, a couple of threads back, SC estimated that MJ-related revenue (not the money the estate has earned since MJ passed) were about 1-1.2 billions. He provided the calculations of how he came up with that dollar figure.



Wikipedia:
Estimation is the calculated approximation of a result which is usable even if input data may be incomplete or uncertain.

A gut feeling, or gut reaction, is a visceral emotional reaction to something

Keywords: Visceral & EMOTIONAL


But I agree with the rest of your post. But I will wait for DI to provide her own estimate.

Thank you TwinklEE for that piece of information...I remember reading that that insurance was nullified because someone "forgot" to pay the bill. So, i obviously had the wrong info.

i can't settle with that defintion, since the bottom line is risk. at the end of all commercials about investing, they say there is risk, involved. how can you make me settle with the words, 'incomplete' and 'uncertain'? that doesn't compute. with the economy the way it is today, let's just settle with a nice 'i don't know'. people tell me they don't like to use wiki, but i guess some like to use it, though they say it's always edited. anyway, the 'estimate' thinking, has gotten people to the point where american advertisers are saying that bankruptcy is an attractive option. so much for 'estimates'.

however, with the investment that MJ made, it is foolproof, thiefproof(as we have found out), and guessproof, because it doesn't matter what you 'estimate'. the money keeps rolling in, as long as people like 'sweet caroline'. and it's a gut feeling they will. along with some MJ songs. it's not as difficult as math people want it to sound. there are a lot of math geniuses, who still panick on wall street and go on ledges, when they think a bad perception becomes reality. and that's their catchphrase..'perception is reality'. that's not good for peace of mind. but it's hard to fight the idea of a wellspring, like the catalogue. and that was MJ's idea. he bailed sony out. they didn't bail him out. because sony operated on the basis of what was in it for them. and MJ's willingness to share, based on his knowledge of human nature, was gunna keep him afloat, no matter what. that catalogue keeps MJ AND sony afloat. sony's not the genius, here. MJ knew under no circumstances, is there ever a good time to sell that catalogue. it's everybody else who keeps entertaining that stupid idea. including Sony. which means, if push came to shove, sony would sell it, too. but MJ came up with a trust, that nobody can touch. nobody. smartest thing he ever did. and he did it for for his kids. what's the use of calling an asset an asset, if you are ever going to let VISCERAL EMOTION, make you entertain the idea of selling it? so i maintain that there is no difference between the two..emotion and estimating. two parts of the brain may be working here, but, in the end, people make emotional decisions, based on it. MJ made a decision based on neither estimating, or emotion. just knowledge of human nature.

if sony gets that catalogue, sony will eventually make a move that will kill sony, by selling it, themselves. and damn them lawyers if they sell it to sony. but they can't hurt MJ, either, for other reasons.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

elusive - you are forgetting the interest rate on the debt. the interest rate is reported to be 16% as from the article shows.

so when you think of the initial $400M debt each year it would increase by $64M due to interest on the loan.

reportedly Michael was making between $50-70M from the catalogs.

so any money earned will cover the interest but the principal debt balance will remain almost the same.

that's the reason why the debt stayed pretty much the same unfortunately. (and also why people say that Michael needed to do the TII concerts).

yeah i get you but im not forgetting. im going from the court documents that were availalbe at the time and talked about then that showed the amounts and what had been paid.ontop of the deal that was to last 5 years and by then the debt would have been repaid as per the docs from the time

anyway like any of it matters now. history will be re written as always by the media. as now mj is a broke druggie and in 50 years time that will be written as fact. "if men could only write what they knew to be true then history could not be written" MJ.

and if branca is dodgy they wont need an excuse to sell the cat.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

anyway has it been determined whether bain has dropped the big lawsuit and its been replaced by this?

 

[virginia_woolf]

if u look at all the lawsuits against the estate many are for " small" Amounts. thousands or 100's of thous. theres a few crazy ones from the likes of rowe and bain

You mean Leonard Rowe not Deborah, right? how much does he want?

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

anyway has it been determined whether bain has dropped the big lawsuit and its been replaced by this?

I dont think Michael was even served those papers. His security blocked it being served to Michael at the gate, and it expired.

I remember also hearing that her lawyer dropped out because of the $44m lawsuit as it was ridiculous and he knew they wouldnt win (and he wouldnt get paid) and that no other lawyer has taken her on as a client in this suit for the same reason.

So it seems she's dropped that lawsuit and decided on a more reasonable price being that Michael is gone and all now.

 

[Memefan]

in 2007 mj was worth 1.7 billion according to court documents. the debt when he left was around 100mill (according to those who saw the docs.this figure was well b5 june 25th) not 500 mill. it was never that figure to start with. the debt was orignally between 300-400 and that has been paid of since around 2006 when mj set up a trust fund where all the money he made from the sony/ATV went straight into that fund and went to paying the debt off. mj had around a 5 year deal to pay it off. it would have been paid off by around 2011.so we are now at 2010 so you do the maths interms of what he owed pre june 25th and what he would owe now considering the payment plan would have ended in 2011. mj is the only person who has a plan and is paying the money back yet according to the media thedebt increases by 100's of millions. funny that!

if u look at all the lawsuits against the estate many are for " small" Amounts. thousands or 100's of thous. theres a few crazy ones from the likes of rowe and bain (if bain is still going with that) obvioulsy they will be contested and from the evidence we have seen those cases have no legal standing. but all the others are pocket change.

yes if anything happens to the sony/atv i will start to wonder aswell as theres no reason what so ever for that to go anywhere ever.

No, it was more than 100M. even if you want to be VERY VERY conservative, Prescient lawsuit stated they secured financing for 270M. And they were promised 9% of that amount..They had secured 540M for MJ to re-acquire the 50% of the beatles he sold to Sony in the '90s. But he ended up not doing that...but he used 275M out of the 540M. He apparently reached some kind of deal with Sony.


So his debt could't have been only 100M.

And remember, MJ's income couldn't have been much between 2005 & 2008...His songs weren't played much on the radio, there was no Beatles re-issue. I am sure he got royalty check but it might have been peanuts for someone like.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807EFD61430F931A25754C0A9639C8B63

This story, I read a while ago, makes me think things were a lot worst than we thought: It is about MJ buying a couple of paintings at Patrick Whelan's gallery in Laguna Beach. After selecting several paintings, he had to wait for weeks for AEG to pay for the paintings, and all during that time one of MJ's employees would call the gallery asking if they received the $$. I think AEG finally did pay and MJ received the paintings less than 2 weeks before he passed. I think it's the fact that he was so impatient to get them delivered, that he had his assistant called several times to check if the payments was received because the gallery wouldn't bring the paintings to his house without first receiving payment

I thought it was extremely peculiar...MJ was not cheap...I am sure he would have paid for the paintings himself if he could. But from reading the articles, I am under the impression that he did not have the cash.

MJ used to go to stores and order a bunch of things and paid for it himself...anyway, that story touched me quite a bit.

 

[virginia_woolf]

And remember, MJ's income couldn't have been much between 2005 & 2008...His songs weren't played much on the radio, there was no Beatles re-issue

I don't know why people act like he only owned right to Beatles songs. Sony/ATV owns hundreds of thousands of songs. Everyone from Presley to Beyonce.

 

[Memefan]

Well I have some estimates

In regards to revenue:



I'll go with SC's calculations. but it's important to remember that in that post Smoothcriminal05 said that it's gross income which means that you need to subtract every other person and businesses share, subtract costs, fees, salaries paid etc. Then you'll need to pay income taxes on that. In California (over $1M income) you pay 35% to federal taxes and 10% to state taxes - which means half of the money earned will go to income taxes.

Then The estate cannot use all of the incoming money to pay for the debt. They need to set aside some money to pay for children's expenses, staff salaries, house maintenance expenses etc before you can pay back debts.

plus we don't know if the $250M deal with sony is paid upfront or if that will be paid over the length of that deal (over 7 years). Smoothcriminal's income calculation assumes that the estate gets that money upfront.

In short about the income - even if the gross income could seem to be high - the net income after the taxes will be much more lower.

in terms to current debt - this is my estimation from another thread - which is quite in sync with wall street journal

Here are the reported numbers with links

"The Fortress loans were coming due yet again at the end of December 2007. Barclays refinanced the $300 million loan against Sony/ATV from Fortress. HSBC (HBC) lent $30 million against MiJac. Plainfield Asset Management, a hedge fund, loaned another $40 million against MiJac at a 16% interest rate on terms that allowed Jackson to defer payments while the amount due grew."

also

"Under terms of an agreement struck with Jackson after Colony purchased the note on the property for $23.5 million" (they would have to pay this amount back if they want to get the full ownership of Neverland back).

http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/23/news...tune/index.htm

From TMZ reports about the creditors claims "So checking the board again, we're now over $26.5 million!"

http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/22/michae...claim-lawsuit/

So the starting debt is 300M for Sony/ATV + $70M for Mijac + $24M for Neverland + $27M for creditors claims = $420M

The payment info is from the WSJ article about the new deal

"The estate is likely to pay off about $125 million in debt by the end of this year, including $35 million owed to AEG Live, the promoter that was to stage a series of concerts by Mr. Jackson in London."

so 125-35 = $90M is being paid for the existing loans

so by basic math we can see that the estate is to be still in debt by $420-90 = $330M

WSJ reports a similar number for the current remaining debt

The estate is likely to refinance another $325 million backed by Mr. Jackson's two biggest assets: Sony/ATV Music Publishing, his venture with Sony that owns copyrights to 251 Beatles songs; and his 2,600-acre Neverland Valley Ranch outside Santa Barbara, Calif.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

I think it is safe to say that there's still around $300M in loans/debt that has to be paid.

Of course as the deals are being made, and as the money comes in -such as from the sony deal- the debt is being paid and getting smaller.

ps: I didn't consider AllGood's Lawsuit at all. but if you take into consideration and the estate loses that lawsuit (or reaches some sort of a settlement) they could be required to pay up to $300M to Allgood as well. They might be keeping some cash (and not paying existing debts) just in case for similar lawsuits etc.

I love you for taking the time to do this. Really.

I am an accountant, so I was curious to get a rough idea...but I wasn't willing to do the calculations myself. I do enough of that at work during the week.
I mostly appreciate the fact that you catalogued the different debts.

I agree that AllGood shouldn't be included because no judgment has been rendered and I hope to God, they don't win.

I don't know why people act like he only owned right to Beatles songs. Sony/ATV owns hundreds of thousands of songs. Everyone from Presley to Beyonce.

Because they are the most lucrative. Playing a Beatles bring in about 250-500K..whole playing a Beyonce may bring 25-75K (average). And I don't see her songs being used in as many (any??) commercials as the Beatles. But you do have a point, Sony-ATV is more than the Beatles...

 

[MusicMan26]

And remember, MJ's income couldn't have been much between 2005 & 2008...His songs weren't played much on the radio, there was no Beatles re-issue. I am sure he got royalty check but it might have been peanuts for someone like.

The Beatles music is only a very small fraction of the Sony/ATV catalog. I'm sure he was being paid quite well.

 

[144000]

No, it was more than 100M. even if you want to be VERY VERY conservative, Prescient lawsuit stated they secured financing for 270M. And they were promised 9% of that amount..They had secured 540M for MJ to re-acquire the 50% of the beatles he sold to Sony in the '90s. But he ended up not doing that...but he used 275M out of the 540M. He apparently reached some kind of deal with Sony.


So his debt could't have been only 100M.

And remember, MJ's income couldn't have been much between 2005 & 2008...His songs weren't played much on the radio, there was no Beatles re-issue. I am sure he got royalty check but it might have been peanuts for someone like.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807EFD61430F931A25754C0A9639C8B63

This story, I read a while ago, makes me think things were a lot worst than we thought: It is about MJ buying a couple of paintings at Patrick Whelan's gallery in Laguna Beach. After selecting several paintings, he had to wait for weeks for AEG to pay for the paintings, and all during that time one of MJ's employees would call the gallery asking if they received the $$. I think AEG finally did pay and MJ received the paintings less than 2 weeks before he passed. I think it's the fact that he was so impatient to get them delivered, that he had his assistant called several times to check if the payments was received because the gallery wouldn't bring the paintings to his house without first receiving payment

I thought it was extremely peculiar...MJ was not cheap...I am sure he would have paid for the paintings himself if he could. But from reading the articles, I am under the impression that he did not have the cash.

MJ used to go to stores and order a bunch of things and paid for it himself...anyway, that story touched me quite a bit.

you're going by the seen instead of the unseen. people never stop buying MJ music. the less the radio plays it the more people desire it, as seen on this site. i know people like to underestimate it's value, compared to the beatles, but that's....off, to put it nicely. and besides..the beatles aren't the only ones in that cat. and...there are weekend radio shows dedicated to the beatles, on a regular basis...all over the world. plus cirque de soleil(sp) and elvis music. and other stuff. and, so what if MJ acted 'peculiar'. that means nothing. that's too much scrutiny. maybe he just desired the paintings. why are people looking for the worst in MJ situations, where there isn't any? why look for the worst, in any case? there's nothing solid to inspire such bleek observations. there is nothing to prove his debt. and nothing to prove any financial trouble on his part. i have yet to see it. all i hear is the media...and people believing it. why do people like to supersize the estimate of 'his debt'? and undersize the value of his SURPLUS? i just don't get it.

you talk about precient..but in the end you assume MJ made a deal with sony. there's no connection there. so why should i believe any reports? in the end..those who doubt, end up saying MJ magically got out of a hole. so...they're in no better a position to guess, than i am.

so...MJ had to wait for some paintings. patience is a virtue. MJ always had it. doesn't mean he was in debt. after all..he got the paintings. that's all that matters.

what gets most people in trouble is lack of patience. if they don't get paid now, something must be wrong. maybe...if they think about it..nothing's wrong.

here's an uneducated guess as to why MJ didn't want to acquire the whole cat. because he knew he could benefit from sony thinking something's in it for them. and he knew that half a catalogue is a whole catalogue, when the catalogue is a fountain of money. MJ showed there, that he never loved money. it's the people around him that loved money. loving it is the root of evil. and him not caring about it, kept it coming for him. the more you horde, the more it will slip through your fingers. the less you will pay your own bills. the more you'll sink. MJ never operated that way.

 

[Memefan]

you talk about precient..but in the end you assume MJ made a deal with sony. there's no connection there. so why should i believe any reports? in the end..those who doubt, end up saying MJ magically got out of a hole. so...they're in no better a position to guess, than i am.

so...MJ had to wait for some paintings. patience is a virtue. MJ always had it. doesn't mean he was in debt. after all..he got the paintings. that's all that matters.

what gets most people in trouble is lack of patience. if they don't get paid now, something must be wrong. maybe...if they think about it..nothing's wrong.

I wrote about the paintings because I thought ti was very odd, for Faheem to call the Gallery over and over again stating MJ needed the paintings, he has been asking for them....but the gallery holding them because AEG's accounting department had not made the payment. When I first read the story, I thought it was VERY odd...knowing how MJ would spend money like water. He wanted his paintings, but couldn't have them because someone else wasn't getting the money fast enough.

BTW ,it is not true MJ was patient. I heard quite the contrary.

All in all, I hope when the kids inherit the estate (someone told me it might be when Prince reaches 25YO)..I hope to God everything will be nice and tidy. MJ wanted them taken care off....as they should.

 

[144000]

I wrote about the paintings because I thought ti was very odd, for Faheem to call the Gallery over and over again stating MJ needed the paintings, he has been asking for them....but the gallery holding them because AEG's accounting department had not made the payment. When I first read the story, I thought it was VERY odd...knowing how MJ would spend money like water. He wanted his paintings, but couldn't have them because someone else wasn't getting the money fast enough.

BTW ,it is not true MJ was patient. I heard quite the contrary.

All in all, I hope when the kids inherit the estate (someone told me it might be when Prince reaches 25YO)..I hope to God everything will be nice and tidy. MJ wanted them taken care off....as they should.

where is the proof that MJ was not patient? you heard it? from who? lol. the fact that he needed his music to be perfect, and WAITED till it was, is just a microcosm of proof that he WAS patient. the fact that he didn't want to tour, and was willing to be out of the spotlight for a long time, when other people thought he should be working like a dog, proves that he was patient.

and..an employee of MJ acting impatient is not MJ acting impatient. people around MJ are not MJ.

i agree with you that MJ spent money like water. that's why it never left him. he knew if he lost a quarter with the year 2001 on it, and got back a 2002 quarter, he still ended up with a quarter. he didn't think like some other people, who desperately tried to hang onto the quarter marked 2001. those are the people that end up with no quarter at all. spending money like water is good. greed is not good.

 

[Memefan]

dont know what u mean by that. the merging of the sony/atv cat was a business deal. hows that a bail out. sony paid mj 100 mill to merge his cat with theres. its wasnt a loan/bail out in any sense of the word and happened around 95 ish

It was a bailout in the sense that if MJ did not need that money (He invested a lot of his own money in the Dangerous tour, the tour was cut short because of the allegations...he got sued left and right because of that)....he would not have merged his catalogue with Sony's.

Back then Sony's was a low level publishing co. He did have a long professional relationship with them...but still, had he not needed the $$ he would have taken ATV out of EMI (a much bigger publishing house) to Sony.

Just as recently as 2005, he wanted to de-merge them...hence the Prescient / Fortress funding. But he did not go through with it...for reasons only him and his people know. ATV remains the most lucrative part of Sony / ATV regardless of all the acquisitions they did in the last few years.

Ivy, it was recently reported that the estate administrators negotiated lower interest rate on the loans. So, I don't know how up to date the Wall street report was.

 

[Memefan]

where is the proof that MJ was not patient? you heard it? from who? lol. the fact that he needed his music to be perfect, and WAITED till it was, is just a microcosm of proof that he WAS patient. the fact that he didn't want to tour, and was willing to be out of the spotlight for a long time, when other people thought he should be working like a dog, proves that he was patient.

and..an employee of MJ acting impatient is not MJ acting impatient. people around MJ are not MJ.

i agree with you that MJ spent money like water. that's why it never left him. he knew if he lost a quarter with the year 2001 on it, and got back a 2002 quarter, he still ended up with a quarter. he didn't think like some other people, who desperately tried to hang onto the quarter marked 2001. those are the people that end up with no quarter at all. spending money like water is good. greed is not good.

Ok...I am not gonna argue whether MJ was patient or not..That is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the current discussion. If he was patient, great...if he wasn't ...even better. He and I have something in common.

I agree with the bolded part. MJ gave away so much money to charity...unimaginable amount of money. I still can't believe he gave his Victory tour earnings $$ to charity. Incredible.

I know the press like to blame MJ's money woes on excessive shopping, but I really think the advisors & disloyal employees should be blamed.

Most of them played on his insecurities to get the good employees fired so they could deplete his fortune.

Reading reports on the Prescient lawsuit, I can understand his bitterness towards the industry. Blah!


ETA: I just read your previous reply

i can't settle with that defintion, since the bottom line is risk. at the end of all commercials about investing, they say there is risk, involved. how can you make me settle with the words, 'incomplete' and 'uncertain'? that doesn't compute. with the economy the way it is today, let's just settle with a nice 'i don't know'. people tell me they don't like to use wiki, but i guess some like to use it, though they say it's always edited. anyway, the 'estimate' thinking, has gotten people to the point where american advertisers are saying that bankruptcy is an attractive option. so much for 'estimates'.

I had a few chuckles. Funny.

But that is business...That is what investors do everyday weigh the risk and pull out of an investment and put it somewhere else,, if you think the RISK for outweigh the potential gain.

When MJ invested in ATV, he know the 40+M he paid would bring him a lot more in the future. Anyway, the work Ivy did is pretty close to the real scenario IMHO. And she came up with similar $$$ as the Wall Street Journal, that is enough for me.

WSJ have access to a lot more financial datas from hedge fund & investors...so I consider them a lot more accurate in that field than say, Time magazine.