Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

[yaazgurl]

I didn't read that he said that he never talked to her but that he never talked to her about his health.

No way am I going to try to figure out Karen. My wee brain can only handle so much. She does have MAJOR issues. It was just Kenny's never talked to her that stood out to me as implausible.

No offense taken.

 

[JaneBender]

She may have been trying to protect his privacy? She has been going out of her way since Michael died to to violate his piracy. Taken PICS of his crypt and putting on her face book page? If you were here years ago you would know she did not give two craps about his privacy.

No I totally agree with you.. .but think about this... she was protecting his privacy and HER paycheck while he was alive. He's gone now, so there is no one to stop her from speaking... u see what I'm getting at? I think it's two fold. She was protecting him because if word got out that Michael may not have been ready for those shows it would have been BAD so she and Kenny kept their mouths shut and maybe just hoped things would get better. now that Michael is gone, there is no paycheck to protect and he's not here to stop her from telling all of his persona business.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

thats right o Kenny told Michael to go home on the 19th...big meeting with Murray and Michael on the 20th,,,,Murray basically told Kenny to mind business that Michael was fine...Then Michael callled Nurse Lee on 21st....Michael passed on the 25th....to me that is Michael NOT feeling well for more than a day..

See, if that's true- that is quite an interesting fact. So, in theory he has access to a personal physician 24/7- yet Michael calls another nurse? I find that quite remarkable.

 

[marebear]

thats right o Kenny told Michael to go home on the 19th...big meeting with Murray and Michael on the 20th,,,,Murray basically told Kenny to mind business that Michael was fine...Then Michael callled Nurse Lee on 21st....Michael passed on the 25th....to me that is Michael NOT feeling well for more than a day..

Do you think Michael called this nurse behind Murray's back? I wonder if Michael was questioning what Murray was doing.

 

[Ashtanga]

Karen Faye is a mess. :fear:

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

i dont know what you mean by the fact is the autopsy rep that does not mean he was serieus sick in the 20st.. maybe because of murray i dont know

but i do know that there was something going on, cold and hot at the same time is not ok.. and maybe what ever it was was gone by the time he died and never shoon up at the autopsy so to refer to that its not working for me..

i just want to know where the fans are who say this is it cant watch it because he is so thin etc.., and now we are all seeing he was fine because thats the stradegy to win the case?

i want to know the true.. and i still believe murray killed him no mather what if he was or wasnt fine..

i just want to point out that fine is not a good case.. because he could be serieus not fine in the three days mentions..

What I'm saying is, fan testimony holds no weight in this legal case, meaning those who say he was "too thin", will not be called into trial, for anything. Because that belief is outweighed by an autopsy report which claims he was healthy for a 50-year old man, which is more a fact than a statement based on opinion.

 

[Ingelief]

thats what i mean xtthunder
"

"thats right o Kenny told Michael to go home on the 19th...big meeting with Murray and Michael on the 20th,,,,Murray basically told Kenny to mind business that Michael was fine...Then Michael callled Nurse Lee on 21st....Michael passed on the 25th....to me that is Michael NOT feeling well for more than a day..



There was something there, and maybe murray cost that also? i believe that they must look closer in the courtroom to that point.. also when they here kenny about the days before they should
ask the security? the cook? maybe he called friends in those days? elizabeth or his friends at cascios i dont know who but he must have talked about his not being well

right?

 

[TheChosenOne]

What's up with all the hate here. I've been reading the last 3 pages and it's full with hate and bickering (spelling??). Gosh just stop it. Michael wasn't about hating, he was about forgiving. And I thought of all people his fans would understand that life is not about hating or attacking people.

Lets just focus on the case, what is happening in court, THE FACTS that are known.

Cos life is about love and be-loved. It's too short for all this hate.
Had to get this of my chest, sorry.

I am not sure which thread you are reading, but Ivy and I have been in this thread for the entire day and if we had seen anything that suggested what you are suggesting, we would have dealt with it.

Please do not mistake strong emotion for hatred.

There are some here who feel that others are also responsible for Michael's death and I agree with you that we need to focus on the facts as they are presented in court and focus our attention on MURRAY'S CONVICTION.

 

[CherubimII]

It is unfathomable Why bastard?

"Money is the root of all Evil."

 

[angelofhope]

thanks for the updates. hugs to all. Murray will rot in hell for this, and hopefully a very longtime in a prison cell. I believe Kenny over Karen. Karen sent me a facebook private message around May full of the joys- all she does is change her story. Wonder what she is gonna stay when she gets on that stand and has to promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

[MJStorm]

I remember a video about TII before this movie aried from the october 2009 where Kenny was saying that Michael was helathy, happy and ready to perform. LIAR.
AEG will blame Murray for everything to cover their own asses.

To be fair, he said the latest rehearsals were incredible, but commented that Michael had lost some tests before. He just did not give details. Be careful when calling people liars (unless you are talking about the Jackson family or a crazy makeup artist).

 

[ivy]

Fox News Reporter Sally Arthy was in court today for the preliminary hearing of Michael Jackson’s Doctor Conrad Murray. Here are her notes from inside the courtroom.

There are no definite witnesses in court today
Judge goes through court proceedings regarding photographs etc/comings and goings/cell phones
There is a lottery for public seating each morning
Judge Walden opening statement 0910
7-8 Day hearing
20-30 witnesses
Show Michael Jackson preparing for important tour in U.K.
Major world event also important for MJ career
MJ crew rehearsal at Staples Centre in the evening
Defendant Murray working as personal psychologist, preventative treated
Murray treating MJ at home in Holmby Hills
Murray going late evening-midnight-1am at night and provide care..6 nights a week at MJ home giving Propofol to help MJ sleep for 2 straight months every night
No indication Propofol can be used for sleep aide
TIMELINE:
June 23rd 2009..MJ normal routine to Staples Centre..rehearsal fabulous
June 24 same routine good rehearsal at staples..MJ optimistic
Returns home at 1am June 25th
Murray’s BMW car in driveway according to security
MJ dropped off at home
June 25
1:30am Court learned through evidence that Murray began treatment
2:00am valium pill administered
3:00am Intravenous diazebeem, IV of benzso
5:00am other treatment
7:30am other drugs through IV
10:40-11am infusing with propofol..at some point he ceases to breathe and dies after that
MJ dead before paramedics arrived
Only 2 pepople in room at the time— MJ and Dr. Murray
11:51am call- lasted 11 mins..witness heard noises at other end of phone
Likely Conrad Murray who realized MJ was not breathing.
12:12pm Call by Murray to Michael Emeer Williams, security, saying he needs help..left a message.
12:15pm Williams returns call and Murray says MJ had a bad reaction.
Williams calls another member of security who is not at house.
12:17pm Williams then calls Alberto Alvarez who is in second trailer outside house, checks permission to go in house, goes upstairs to MJ’s bedroom.
He Sees MJ on bed, Murray doing one handed CPR on the soft bed.
Murray reports MJ had a bad reaction and asks Alvarez to collect medical evidence.
Prosecution says Murray has still not called 911 at this point.
12:21pm Alvarez told to get a bag and Murray collects medical bottles, and IV bag etc., as told and only then is he told to call 911.
Possible that Murray waited 20 minutes to call 911...MJ could have been dead before noon.
12:26pm Paramedics treating MJ on site. MJ’s Eyes fixed and dilated and he was cool to touch. He flatlined so heart action taking place. MJ dead...no observation of appropriate equipment for treatment with propofol, according to paramedics.
Asked Murray about underlying medical condition.
Murray asked what drugs he had given...doesn't mention propofol
Prosecutors says this could have been useful.
UCLA medical center advised futher care on MJ useless..they in contact with paramedics.
1:07pm Paramedics transport to UCLA with MJ
1:13pm Arrive in ER room.
Doctors at hospital only asked Murray what he treating MJ for. Mentioned on drug, valium and flomax..no mention of propofol to UCLA doctors.
Doctors still tried to bring MJ to life.
2:26pm Dr. Cooper at UCLA pronounced MJ dead.
Murray had conversation with security personnel at hospital.
Detectives question Murray next day and then learned of propofol.
Autopsy - acute propofol intoxication
Court will hear from medical experts...extreme deviation from expected standard of care...

Key points made by Prosecution:
-Lack of appropriate equipment
-Propofol doesn't help imsomnia
-Cocktail of drugs
-Ineffective CPR
-Failure to call 911 immediately
-Failure to maintain appropriate medical records



End of opening statement from prosecution

No opening statement from defense.

Kenny Ortega called to stand.
Kenneth Ortega states name.
Told to speak in loud voice
Walden starts questions:
Job?
Director and Choreographer in theatrical production
How long?
Chore since 1970’s and director since 1980’s
First meet MJ?
1991
MJ interested in creative partnership and directing tour dangerous world tour which Ortega did.
1991-2009 relationship?
Most of time when rehearsing production..MJ looking to do something at right time when appropriate..most time spent working together.
This is it tour...did u discuss w MJ?
Talks started April 2009...MJ and me co-directed productions.
April interaction from then on with MJ?
3-4 days a week before prod then 4-5 days when rehearsing per week
MJ demeanor?
Called and invited..great about this ...like u to work with me...excited about it...tremendous potential to be creative..MJ shared reasons for wanting to do it.
Reason?
Good time to perform again, his kids appreciate it, for his fans, remind people to take care of planet and each other.
Plans beyond tour
MJ asked about going to India....wanted Ortega to go..MJ asked if Ortega had visited Japan...taking show to these places.
Professionally...MJ post tour?
After tour MJ wanted to help direct with Ortega on motion pictures. MJ liked film making and wanted to dev movie ideas.
Rehearsals prior to June 25...were u at rehearsals at Burbank at start before moved to staples?
Yes...at beginging of May and April.
Transitioned to forum in L.A. in June...then to staples..large scale rehearsals.
Yes
U on staples every day?
Yes
When start staples?
At some point in June moved to staples
Demeanour of MJ at staples...excited?
Yes
General schedual at staples?
Diff call times for crew, dancers, MJ etc
What mj sched?
Late pm
Evening?
Yes
Length?
6 hours max...4 days a week
MJ involved in every creative decision.
Friday June 19 2009...incident at rehearsal...what?
Ortega: at staples..MJ arrived he didn't appear well at all. MJ chilled soft spoken seemed not well...
Did u have concerns?
Absolutely
He wasn't in condition to be at rehearsal..he didn't seem well enough to be there...he didn't rehearse and didn’t want to go home..asked for choreography to do his part and watch from arena..this happened for a while. He just appeared very lost it was scary..it felt scary..said MJ
Asked--would you rather go home..he said would u be ok with that..Ortega said absolutely.
Previously like this?
Meeting next day at MJ home on June 20th.
Did u know what meeting about? No
Who there?
MJ there. Murray there (Ortega asked to i.d. Murray in court)...Frank Deleo MJ manager and Randy Phillips.
What next?
Quickly clear meeting about me that Murray upset I had sent MJ home and not allow to rehearse and voiced my concerns about MJ health..Murray said not my responsibility..to leave MJ’s health to him
Murray scolding towards me...
Response?
Tried to explain..choice made together...MJ in danger and others if went on stage..it was MJ’s choice and I supported it.
Better for all if I focus on show
MJ physically and emotionally fine according to Murray.
Tues June 23 rehearsals resumed. How was this?
Fantastic, MJ in great form..MJ we all knew...
Weds june 24?
Involved active participation in rehearsal...
Discussion at end w MJ...?
2 wonderful days of rehearsing...was feeling good and confident..MJ asked if happy? He said was happy..MJ said he was happy..asked to thank crew for all hard work and talked regarding next days rehearsal..
Practicing illusion..
Said goodnight
Thurs june 25
Learned news of MJ
Had phone call to Staples....
I was on way to rehearsal and Randy going to pick up MJ for rehearsal..Randy said calling for different reason and I am at house for different reason there is ambulance outside
Prosecution finished:
Chernoff cross examine Ortega:
Tour would enhance your reputation?
If dancers etc
If u created show was poor
Would that affect reputation?
It could
Meeting at house..who called meeting?
I don't know.
Why manager there?
Who is Randy Phillips...high up in AEG?
On 19th observed MJ to be chilled. First time MJ came to rehearsal and looked sick?
First time came and looked like he couldn’t perform?
Yes
For most part we were headed to greatness...but MJ sometimes didn't show up..created anxiety for me...difficult to move forward...if not there
Why not present?
Don't know
19 June: anything else observed?
Ortega: seemed to be in state that he wasn’t present...I was troubled by his appearance.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...inary-hearing-dr-conrad-murray/#ixzz1A68wYVvv

 

[PrincessMichaela]

I'm so confused by the timelines...they've been changing since day 1. And I don't understand why the heck Murray cared that Kenny sent him home on the 19th. It's his production, if he wants Michael to take the night off and rest up, so what. It's not Murray's place. It makes no sense for him to be mad. It's not like Kenny stepped in and tried giving him some medicine to help him feel better or anything. He just gave him the night off. If he'd felt bad and Kenny made him stay and rehearse, that might be cause for Murray to get angry, but it was the other way around. I don't get it.

 

[Justthefacts]

Michael did not die from having the chills. And as far as the nurse is concerned I will believe her when Michael's assistant confirms or denies that phone cal. You should also know on June 21 Michael talked to the Casios Michael had gumbo his chef said he wanted gumbo for Father's day. So just wait and see

 

[Autumn II]

Do you think Michael called this nurse behind Murray's back? I wonder if Michael was questioning what Murray was doing.

I'm thinking now that's the case, that Michael was questioning Murray. Murray is being painted to seem more like "an enforcer" than a doctor (re: Ortega's testimony). I never could understand why Michael would call a NURSE, rather than his personal physician? That's making sense, now. . . The unsigned contract also makes sense, in light of that. (Michael did NOT sign it. . . )

 

[Big Apple2]

So, thus far, it appears that any "riot acting" going on was between Kenny Ortega AND Conrad Murray.

And if anybody was "trying" to control Michael, it appears that Murray was that person.

 

[Ingelief]

good say pacemiodolce....

he called a nurse but had murray? and told his mother he was scared to being killed..

I mean just the facts is that it does mather if there was something going on the 20st and around

why? because murray was there and he still felt not fine.. what did murray do? or didnt do he had to do..

Do u understand what i mean, the time period can prove that murray was a not good docter before.. in the days he was not fine.. and had serieus!!! symptomes...

 

[chanel05]

murray gave 2 different stories first one was he gave mj dip at 10.30 or so the other was 11.30 or so. the prosecution said AT LEAST 21 minutes. which it is



and the first contridictary reports start. totally different to what court tv said

no its AT LEAST 9 MINUTES and A MAXIMUM OF 21 or more minutes. I dont think they could figure out an exact time

Karen Faye

On Tuesday 4th January 2011, @wingheart said:

The prosecution is not "really" on Michael's side. You must understand that. They are only about winning the case for the state. So they will only submit what they know THEY can win.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/7u10h6

she is telling the truth. they arent. i dnt take it as she is saying they are there to help muarry out so he can walk free. she is saying they yes, they are trying to win the case, but their sole purpose for winning is not necessairly "we want justice for mike", its is more for the state of california

oh and not to forget the nurse who he let called and said he was cold at one side and hot at the other???

thats not a simple few days not feeling well thats a serieus syptome??????????????????????????????????

that is a serious symptom. she said that she knew that it was because someone was giving him something that messed with his central nervous system

I am NOT a Karen Faye fan but I do think that we shouldn't take her pre June 25th tweets so literally. I think that she may have been afraid to share on her FB was what REALLY going on those days of rehearsal. What was she supposed to say? She may have been trying to protect his privacy, maybe she thought there was no need to mention anything because she thought things would get better.

i agree. she couldnt say much because she was under contract.

What about them? They're still on the outside looking in, and it really doesn't matter what they say, because their belief is disputed by facts, ie. A coroner's report.




Well, Cheryl Lee never stated when those calls were made, to my understanding. All she said was "a few weeks before he died", it's possible this was happening in the same time frame, or even the same night. Meaning, perhaps Michael called her for a second opinion, after being told by his hired physician, that he was fine. Of course, there's no way to prove that unless Ms. Lee is called to testify, which I haven't heard of happening yet.

from what i remember the nurse said that that phone call happened like a few days before he died. i belive she said it was that sunday before. its in a interview somewhere.

Ever since Michael died people who were close or knew him half of them don't agree with anything. Some people say one thing and the others say something different. It has been this way the whole time.

so true. also everyone has a different perspective on things and a different side of the story also.

 

[xthunderx2]

Do you think Michael called this nurse behind Murray's back? I wonder if Michael was questioning what Murray was doing.

I think Murray was being very pushy with Michael and Michael wanted to speak to someone else...I dont know.....I jut want to know what happened to Michael....obviously Murray didnt give a shit about Michael's life....

 

[Julia55]

well murray is the only one on trial so do u want him to walk? itdoesnt matter what AEG etc say cause they arent on trial but if ppl who have issues with AEG are gonna ending up testifying for murray and help him walk cause of their issues with aeg then any fan should have an issue with that.

I do agree with you to some extent. No, I don't want Murray to walk but I think AEG were to blame also and that makes it very complicated because Kenny Ortega is on the prosecution team - how very clever of AEG.

In an ideal world Murray will go down for what he did and Katherine will get her trial against AEG so that we can all learn the truth and justice will be done for Michael.

 

[Asedora]

Karen Faye is a mess. :fear:

KF is not a mess in this case. AEG is a full of mess. When they wanted to make lots of cash they were saying that MJ was happy and healthy and ready to perform. I remember that video. Now they changed the story. All who were on AEG payroll including Ortega and bodyguards will try to put all responsibilities on Murray in order to dismiss Ktherine's lawsuit.
Murray will not walk away anyways. He will get his 4 years in prison.

 

[ginvid]

Autumn, I think it was concluded a long time ago that based on what happened that it did not seem that MJ was too keen on Murray going to London at all.

Maybe Murray was upset Kenny sent him home because he wanted to save face and still wanted to seem like he had control. Maybe MJ was already doubting him and he knew this. It could be so many things. But I will defer until more information.

 

[FlyAway]

I'm so confused by the timelines...they've been changing since day 1. And I don't understand why the heck Murray cared that Kenny sent him home on the 19th. It's his production, if he wants Michael to take the night off and rest up, so what. It's not Murray's place. It makes no sense for him to be mad. It's not like Kenny stepped in and tried giving him some medicine to help him feel better or anything. He just gave him the night off. If he'd felt bad and Kenny made him stay and rehearse, that might be cause for Murray to get angry, but it was the other way around. I don't get it.

Good points! I don´t get it either. :no:

 

[wendy2004]

Bodyguards are next to take the stand...

This is the testimony I'm most interested in.

What about them? They're still on the outside looking in, and it really doesn't matter what they say, because their belief is disputed by facts, ie. A coroner's report.




Well, Cheryl Lee never stated when those calls were made, to my understanding. All she said was "a few weeks before he died", it's possible this was happening in the same time frame, or even the same night. Meaning, perhaps Michael called her for a second opinion, after being told by his hired physician, that he was fine. Of course, there's no way to prove that unless Ms. Lee is called to testify, which I haven't heard of happening yet.

Nurse Lee said it was Father's Day...the hot/cold incident. If I remember correctly, that was Sunday, June 21st.

thats right o Kenny told Michael to go home on the 19th...big meeting with Murray and Michael on the 20th,,,,Murray basically told Kenny to mind business that Michael was fine...Then Michael callled Nurse Lee on 21st....Michael passed on the 25th....to me that is Michael NOT feeling well for more than a day..

Someone being sick for more than ONE day does not mean they are dying UNLESS they are having some serious life-threatening symptoms. Otherwise, everyone with the flu would be hospitalized. Only those exhibiting serious symptoms get hospitalized. Shivering isn't too bad. I've shivered in my office many a day and no one sent me home (and now I have a heater under my desk h34r:.)

ETA: got a meeting to go to now and I don't wanna gooooo. Keep the wonderful updates coming, ppl. Bless!

 

[MJStorm]

there was noting wrong in Michael's autopsy he was not sick he had a day when he was not feeling well it is called being human everyone has a day like that. IF Michael had any illness at the time of his death his autopsy would have shown it

Didn't you know? The favorite game of some people is: "ignore the autopsy".

 

[Justthefacts]

This is not about AEG.

 

[marebear]

I think Murray was being very pushy with Michael and Michael wanted to speak to someone else...I dont know.....I jut want to know what happened to Michael....obviously Murray didnt give a shit about Michael's life....

It was Murray's job to take care of Michael and yet Michael went to somebody else. It was a few days before he died. I feel that something wasn't right.

 

[GinnyJackson]

i think the night he called nurse Lee he had a fever. I feel the same way. but to have doc murder ignore it means and signals to me that doc murray wasnt even a real doctor.

 

[yaazgurl]

I don't understand how only one source reported the very important factor that several dosages of propofol were given in lethal amounts as early as 7:30 am. All the other news outlets are spitting out the timeline Murray originally provided.

 

[Asedora]

This is not about AEG.

It is all about everything because Ortega is testifying today. Ortega is working for AEG. I am just trying to remind you.