Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[LastTear]

LOL! I was correct then. Mother's side are not calling Thome, because they "probably" don't want the Jermaine connection to be put on blast.

(Thanks LastTear.)

Sorry, I checked the thread and found the later list. Thome had been added to Jacksons list as a late entry. Sorry to confuse.

ETA

Katherine Jackson first amended possible Witness list - as of April 15

(Additions in green, removed names in gray)


Katherine Jackson / Prince Jackson / Paris Jackson / Paul Gongaware / Randy Phillips / Jeffrey Adams / Dr. David Adams / Daniel Anderson/ Phillip Anschutz / Dr. Frederic Askin(removed) / Raymone Bain / Ramone Baines(removed - could be a typo) / Richard Barnet (removed) / Tom Barrack / Martin Blount/ Michael Bearden/ Dan Beckerman / David Berman / John Branca / Dr. Emery Neal Brown / Ellen Brunn / Michael Bush / Kai Chase / Patrick Cousins / Dr. Charles Czeisler / Jenna Daddario EMT / Kelly DiStefano / Melissa Elias / Arthur Erk/ Joyce Essex / Alimorad Farschian/ Karen Faye / Lou Ferrigno / Dr. Stuart Finkelstein / Peter Formuzis / Maritza Glassman / Paramedic Mark Goodwin / Dr. Stephen Gordon / Hosny Habashy / Dennis Hawk / Reynold Henry EMT / Cathy Hilton / Julie Hollander / Alejandra Jackson / Jackie Jackson/ Janet Jackson/ Jermaine Jackson / Marlon Jackson / Rebbie Jackson / Randy Jackson / Taj Jackson / Tarryl Jackson/ TJ Jackson / Tito Jackson / Trent Jackson / Quincy Jones / Kathy Jorrie / Michael Kane / Arnold Klein/ Michael Laperruque / Cherilyn Lee / Spike Lee / Tim Leiweke / Hendrikus Lemmens (removed) / Carlos Letelier DDS / Arlyne Lewiston / Detective Orlando Martinez / Dr. Gordon Matheson/ Cindy Medina / John Meglen / Tom Mesereau / Dr. Allan Metzger / Tom Miserendo / Amy Morrison / Roselyn Muhammad / Dr. Conrad Murray / Barry Nadell/ Prince Rogers Nelson / Kenny Ortega / Sharon Osbourne/ Ray Parker Jr / Amy Pascal/ Travis Payne / Lisa Marie Presley / Howard Rile / Dr. Christopher Rogers / Diana Ross / Debbie Rowe / Amir Dan Rubin/ Alif Sankey / Dr. Lakshamanan Sathyavagiswaran/ Madeline Schilder / Dr. Sidney Schnoll / Jean Seawright / Paramedic Richard Seneff / Dr. Myer Shimelman / Barry Siegel / Dr. David Slavit / Janice Smith/ Scott Smith/ Dr. Alon Steinberg / Dr. Barry Swerdlow / Mark Tadrisi DDS / Evvy Tavasci / Tohme Tohme / Shawn Trell / Anthony Urquidez / Carl Virgil / Daniel Wallace / Frederick Webking / Bill Whitfield / Debra Willis / Dr. Daniel Wohgelernter / Timm Woolley

 

[Big Apple2]

Sorry, I checked the thread and found the later list. Thome had been added to Jacksons list as a late entry. Sorry to confuse.

Okay LastTear, no problem.

If he is now on both witness list, then the pressure is definitely on.

My first question to him would be: Why do you call yourself "DR." Tohme-Tohme, you're not a doctor, are you? LOL!

ETA: Ray Parker, Jr.? What the heck will HE be adding to the mix, I wonder. And Arnie Klein, Lord Have Mercy! Does anybody REALLY want that nutcase on the witness stand.

 

[LastTear]

I edited my post to include the list. Glad I double checked, I remembered he was a late addition somewhere.

So bad they named him twice.

 

[Bubs]

These emails actually upset me emotionally far more than the not so nice ones. I may be premature but I take from them that Gongaware really liked Michael as a performer and as a person.
l

Same here, and he said those things in emails he sent to other people so they are not something that he lied on stand.

 

[Bubs]

O
ETA: Ray Parker, Jr.? What the heck will HE be adding to the mix, I wonder. And Arnie Klein, Lord Have Mercy! Does anybody REALLY want that nutcase on the witness stand.

or Alejandra Jackson??
Why would she be testifying of anything expect that Jermoney doesn't want to pay his childsupport and wanted her to pay court proceeding as he didn't have money. Maybe she is there to tell to the estate that MJ promised forever to look after all of the kids from infamous trio

Back to topic

Gongaware said he never told security guard to get MJ to rehearsals, whatever it takes. He said he never told anyone to get MJ 2 rehearsals

Karen of Arc said that, so I'm looking forward when Putnam starts grilling on Karen.

 

[Big Apple2]

Gongaware said he never told security guard to get MJ to rehearsals, whatever it takes. He said he never told anyone to get MJ 2 rehearsals

Karen of Arc said that, so I'm looking forward when Putnam starts grilling on Karen.

I'm not trying to dog "Karen of Arc," BUT in my opinion, she is definitely the type of person who would try and SPICE-UP her testimony in order to help Mother's cause. Again, I must go back to not only her tweets before Michael died, but her Facebook page AFTER Michael died. In my opinion, homegirl was telling some real whoppers on her dang Facebook page, and some of those stories were just so outlandish as not to be believed, but "some" of the fans were eating it up and in my opinion, that just made her Facebook entries even MORE outlandish. She enjoyed the attention and continued to feed the beast, per se.

All just my personal opinion.

 

[crillon]

Same here, and he said those things in emails he sent to other people so they are not something that he lied on stand.

I felt the same way and it really gives Gongaware credibility. When he talked about Michael being a good father, a loving and good person...it shows what he really felt about Michael.

 

[Bubs]

I'm not trying to dog "Karen of Arc," BUT in my opinion, she is definitely the type of person who would try and SPICE-UP her testimony in order to help Mother's cause. Again, I must go back to not only her tweets before Michael died, but her Facebook page AFTER Michael died. In my opinion, homegirl was telling some real whoppers on her dang Facebook page, and some of those stories were just so outlandish as not to be believed, but "some" of the fans were eating it up and in my opinion, that just made her Facebook entries even MORE outlandish. She enjoyed the attention and continued to feed the beast, per se.

All just my personal opinion.

I agree, she is that type that sees everything one sided and likes to do some "coloring" in her stories.

I'm really looking forward her to finish her testimony as I'm quite sure that Putnam would not have asked that question from Gonga unless he has something up to his sleeve. Either he can prove that Gonga didn't say that, or he can prove that Karen of Arc is lying. He might go for trying to discredit some or mos tof Karen of Arc's testimony, so jury may not belive her at all after that. Either way, she gets what she deserves for being hypocrite.


Btw, I love Karen's nickname

 

[Big Apple2]

I agree, she is that type that sees everything one sided and likes to do some "coloring" in her stories.

I'm really looking forward her to finish her testimony as I'm quite sure that Putnam would not have asked that question from Gonga unless he has something up to his sleeve. either he can prove that Gonga didn't say that or he has prove that Karen of Arc is lying. He might go for trying to discredit some or mostof Karen of Arc's testimony, so jury may not belive her at all after that. Either way, she gets what she deserves for being hypocrite.

Yes, I have a feeling that Ms. Karen's credibility may come into play.

For instance, she has an odd way of making herself more than important in Michael's life. I remember during her recent testimony, she stated that Michael needed to see her at all times, while he was rehearsing.

She made a similar remark when she had her Facebook account and that was "Michael was afraid of Naomi Campbell and asked Karen to stay close to him, because Naomi was making advances towards him during the filming of the In The Closet video and well Michael was afraid of Naomi AND her advances." LOL!

If nothing else, Ms. Faye thinks VERY highly of herself.

(Not trying to hijack the board, but the above does show, in my opinion, that Ms. Faye will say anything in order to make herself feel important in the life of Michael Jackson.)

 

[Bubs]

I felt the same way and it really gives Gongaware credibility. When he talked about Michael being a good father, a loving and good person...it shows what he really felt about Michael.

I'm sure there is more of that kind of emails, but plaintiffs only try to bring out all the bad ones to show how MJ was treated, luckily Gonga and others gets their say when defence can question their testimonies.

She made a similar remark when she had her Facebook account and that was "Michael was afraid of Naomi Campbell and asked Karen to stay close to him, because Naomi was making advances towards him during the filming of the In The Closet video and well Michael was afraid of Naomi AND her advances." LOL!

Funny

 

[serendipity]

I had no idea Karen said MJ was afraid of Naomi. :rofl:

Anyway, this from Alan Duke's article:

Gongaware testified that he saw "no indication at all" that Jackson was using drugs during that tour. "I would be certain to notice it if that was the case."

Did Jackson have a doctor treating him during the "HIStory" tour, his lawyer asked.

"Not that I know of," he answered.

seems like Gongaware is saying, if there was a doctor, he didn't see or knew about it.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, the plaintiffs’ lawyers want you as a juror!

LOL. Go back 2 years and I have always said the contract thing was really 50-50. Oral contracts are legally binding the only issue with them is to how to prove them - which is not the case here as it's pretty well established. In this instance the written contract is working against the oral one as the written one spells out that it needs to be signed by all parties. So depending on how the jury thinks they can be satisfied with an implied contract or say that there was no contract as it wasn't signed.

They are trying to prove the doctor was working implicitly for AEG.

see that's another question. Even if the jury thinks that Murray was hired, who hired him is another question. The email to MAW that says "per MJ" and the contract that says "on the request of Michael" etc. works in favor of AEG.

I do not believe Michael did not rehearse for the History Tour. Michael was raised to rehearse and perfect his performances. Michael danced for hours when he was not on tour just to perfect his performances. Michael at least had to know where his mark was onstage. This response from Gongaware is not believable.

wait for Marcel Avram to take the stand

He (Avram) alleges that Jackson barely rehearsed for the tour and indeed requested to cancel or postpone it on Aug. 19–less than one week before the first concert was scheduled to take place in Bangkok.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-29/entertainment/ca-6422_1_pop-star-michael-jackson

The Michael "never rehearsed once" for History tour is either probably not true or mis reported. Maybe he said simething like "he didn't rehearse much" for History tour.

didn't other witnesses say the same/similar thing? Walker or Payne?

Tygger's point is very interesting, saying thet other papers were signed after Michael's death by Tohme or Frank, except Murray's contract. It's very interesting in the context of this trial, for the hiring/retaining part.

we need to see the agreements. if for example production costs can be approved by "agents" of Michael then Tohme and/or Dileo could sign for him. If Murray's contract required Michael's signature no one can sign for him.

This shows me that Gonga calling MJ as Mikey is just a nick name and no intended as degrading way. In this email he calls him kid (50 year old kid) and show they have great trust on MJ ability to make TII huge success.
Plaintiffs are trying their best to show to jurors that AEG were calling MJ in all sort of names, but luckily AEG has emails to show the whole picture, like Gonga calling MJ a kid.

I agree , it's also important to see if Gongaware used similar nick names for other people.

So if PG was there , the next thing will be to make it clear if he knew or not. He can always argue (and that could be true) that he didn't know that these persons were doctors.

I think one of the media reported Gongaware said he cannot recall if there were any doctors on History tour. "I can't recall" versus "no doctor" are different answers.

In my opinion, the bigger question is: Did Thome-Thome have POWER OF ATTORNEY at the time in question? If so, why?

yes he had power of attorney at one point. That's what caused the whole Julien's auctions event that Michael had to stop. I believe Michael revoked the power of attorney sometime between mid april - mid may.

We have to remember that we are only reading a tweet, if we take a days testimony from the list of tweets we receive then a court day would last about 30 mins. But yes it needs clarifying, no tour doctor hired doesn't mean there were no doctors at all, just that one wasn't hired to follow the tour.

as I said I believe one media reported he said he doesn't recall if there are any doctors. so that's a different answer than there wasn't any doctors. Also there could have been doctors and Gongaware might not be aware of them if Michael kept that part a secret - as claimed by AEG.

As to the 10 shows, there is no way that AEG and/or MJ would have put all of that work AND money into a show which would only be for 10 dates. No way! For that reason alone, I never scribed to the theory that the O2 dates were supposed to be for only 10 shows.

the signed contract is for 31 shows.

They say Tohme verbally increased it to 50 shows. So Tohme might have added 19 shows and Michael might not be happy with it. but it was never 10 shows.

As toTohme-Tohme, there is just no telling what he did behind Michael's back. I'm reminded of the 5 MILLION DOLLARS he "claimed" he was holding for Michael in order to purchase a home in Vegas. I mean, for all anybody knows, Tohme could have been holding 10 Million Dollars and after Michael died, he decided to keep 5 Million for himself. Who's to know - right Tohme!

that's why he's being sued by MJ Estate.

Yes, I have a feeling that Ms. Karen's credibility may come into play.

It will. I can tell you that this will not be the only version. Ortega apparently has a different version about the "riot meeting". Payne called her aggressive. It's no secret that Karen had problems with many people and it seems like others felt the same way towards her. Another thing that would not surprise me is if AEG talks about Karen's extreme and obvious hatred towards them. It could make the jurors question whether Karen is an impartial witness or whether her bias is affecting her testimony. For example remember Payne said "I have no dog in this race" which might be a true statement in the sense that he doesn't care about the outcome either way, however the same cannot be said by Karen so she was a dog in this race, she wants a certain outcome and vocalizes this loud and clear.

 

[Mneme]

I find it a bit odd that Ms. Rowe would ask Ms. Faye to bring the "patches." Why wouldn't she just carry them herself, I mean, she was a nurse, and probably had more legitimacy for carry such items, unlike the make-up artist. Weird!

No, Big Apple, sorry, but I don't find it odd because

One day or few days before Michael was going to the Dangerous-Tour he had an operation on his head. This OP was a mess because a nerv was damaged and for Michael it was very-very painfull.
THIS was the reason for the presence of Dr. Klein and Debbie in the first leg (beginning in Bankok).

K. Faye told von "patches" in her evidence in a bad way and any thinks about "drugs" (for Michaels "addiction") but the patches were neither for "addiction" nor for sleep: the patches were simply for Michael's strong pain.

But maybe she was thinking: My Bangles are better then anti-pain-pads.
Who knows....

 

[smoothlugar]

K. Faye told von "patches" in her evidence in a bad way and any thinks about "drugs" (for Michaels "addiction") but the patches were neither for "addiction" nor for sleep: the patches were simply for Michael's strong pain.

I'm sure you are right, but she also said (or I think I read) that the doctor (Flinkestein, I think), later agreed with her and said something like "Oh if you had brought them , you would be in trouble", and Karen said that thanks she didn't bring them with her.

 

[bouee]

wait for Marcel Avram to take the stand

He (Avram) alleges that Jackson barely rehearsed for the tour and indeed requested to cancel or postpone it on Aug. 19–less than one week before the first concert was scheduled to take place in Bangkok.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-29/entertainment/ca-6422_1_pop-star-michael-jackson



didn't other witnesses say the same/similar thing? Walker or Payne?

From Walker :

History tour: dancers rehearsed by themselves in LA. Then went to France, rehearsed in a studio at Disneyland. MJ showed up one or two times. Walker didn't remember if MJ had doctor on staff while on History tour. She never saw any signs of drug abuse, saw MJ on stage, amazing! (ABC7)

From Payne :

On the “HIStory” tour, Payne said Jackson rehearsed both with and without his backup dancers.(AP) Rehearsals for "History" tour was very extensive, Payne said. He was involved w/ selecting dancers, ideas for costumes and whatever needed. Payne said MJ rehearsed with the dancers and separately. Dancers would get up to speed in the beginning, MJ was good at giving space 2 learn (AbC7)

So, no ,it's not exactly what they're saying.

But was PG even involved with reharsals during History anyway ? How should he know ? As I said, I don't always understand Putnam.

we need to see the agreements. if for example production costs can be approved by "agents" of Michael then Tohme and/or Dileo could sign for him. If Murray's contract required Michael's signature no one can sign for him.

I'm not sure that was the point.
My point was, it'not logical. You can't say "the contract was not executed because MJ didn't sign it" and "we hired Murray, did not run any backgrounds checks because MJ wanted this doctor".
The contract was not executed because MJ died before he could sign it.
We don't know if he would have signed it or not, if we want to stay 100% objective.
By saying "MJ asked for this doctor" AEG assume the contract would have been executed. That's what's illogical.
But there's no answer to that, it's for the jury to decide.

I think one of the media reported Gongaware said he cannot recall if there were any doctors on History tour. "I can't recall" versus "no doctor" are different answers.

as I said I believe one media reported he said he doesn't recall if there are any doctors. so that's a different answer than there wasn't any doctors. Also there could have been doctors and Gongaware might not be aware of them if Michael kept that part a secret - as claimed by AEG.

"I'can't reacall" ?? It was a long time since we had not heard it. Not better than "no" , well actually , "No" is a better answer.

I can't find the "I don't recall" in the news thread, are you sure ? So many "I can't recall", it gets confusing.

 

[bouee]

.

wait for Marcel Avram to take the stand

He (Avram) alleges that Jackson barely rehearsed for the tour and indeed requested to cancel or postpone it on Aug. 19–less than one week before the first concert was scheduled to take place in Bangkok.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-29/entertainment/ca-6422_1_pop-star-michael-jackson

This article is about Dangerous tour, it's dated december 93. Avram was suing Michael for the cancellation of Dangerous.

Jackson Hit With $20-Million Lawsuit : Pop music: The pop star faces a fraud and breach-of-contract claim by the promoter of his canceled 'Dangerous' tour. The singer performed only 24 of the 43 shows.
December 29, 1993|CHUCK PHILIPS | SPECIAL TO THE TIMES


Embattled pop star Michael Jackson was sued Tuesday for more than $20 million in a fraud and breach-of-contract claim by the promoter of his abruptly canceled "Dangerous World Tour."

The suit, filed in Los Angeles Superior Court, alleges that Jackson refuses to reimburse Marcel Avram, the owner of Munich-based Mama Concerts, the money for debts resulting from cancellations on the tour.
Ads by Google

It also charges that the singer concealed that he was addicted to drugs and embarked on the tour, in part, to avoid a looming investigation into child molestation allegations.

The tour ended Nov. 12 when the singer announced he was seeking help for an addiction to drugs--a condition, he said, that stemmed from coping with the molestation allegations by a 13-year-old boy, who has also filed a lawsuit against the star. Jackson performed 24 of the 43 scheduled dates.

"Michael Jackson has yet to pay one nickel to the people he left stranded after canceling his world tour," said Los Angeles attorney Don Engel, who represents Avram, owner of Mama Concerts.

"He stiffed hundreds of thousands of his fans and hung my client out to dry. We had no alternative but to bring suit against him."

Representatives for Jackson did not return repeated phone calls.

Engel said Avram filed the suit because Jackson's representatives have refused for six weeks to pay outstanding bills and reimburse millions of dollars in cash advanced to the singer for shows he canceled without notice. Among others reportedly due money: tour employees, vendors and associate promoters.

Despite the international uproar created when the allegations of child molestation became public in August, Jackson had publicly pressed on with his world tour, performing across Asia and Europe despite setbacks and distractions.

At the tour's outset, as the allegations surfaced, Jackson canceled two Bangkok shows, citing dehydration. He shelved a date in Singapore after collapsing backstage. Other shows were canceled in South Africa, Australia, Chile and Peru.

But in Tuesday's lawsuit, Avram alleges that Jackson's conduct and performance problems resulted from the entertainer's addiction to morphine and Demerol.

The suit claims that agents or advisers for Jackson provided the singer with a supply of drugs and deceived Avram by misrepresenting the singer's health problems. False information about the status of Jackson's health was unknowingly used by the promoter on Aug. 17 to obtain an insurance policy from Lloyds of London to guarantee against financial losses resulting from Jackson's failure or inability to perform scheduled concerts on the tour, the suit says. The settlement of the insurance policy is now in question.

Avram himself has been sued twice by vendors and promoters who lost money due to the cancellations.

He alleges that Jackson barely rehearsed for the tour and indeed requested to cancel or postpone it on Aug. 19--less than one week before the first concert was scheduled to take place in Bangkok.

According to Avram, Jackson decided to go out on tour the day before police searched his Neverland Ranch in August to escape the controversy
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.
Avram looks like a sick guy to me.

 

[serendipity]

It will. I can tell you that this will not be the only version. Ortega apparently has a different version about the "riot meeting". Payne called her aggressive. It's no secret that Karen had problems with many people and it seems like others felt the same way towards her. Another thing that would not surprise me is if AEG talks about Karen's extreme and obvious hatred towards them. It could make the jurors question whether Karen is an impartial witness or whether her bias is affecting her testimony. For example remember Payne said "I have no dog in this race" which might be a true statement in the sense that he doesn't care about the outcome either way, however the same cannot be said by Karen so she was a dog in this race, she wants a certain outcome and vocalizes this loud and clear.

I also think they may ask Debbie about the HIStory tour firing, even if it's not relevant to the case. If she denies it or tells a different story they may use it to call Karen's credibility into question.

 

[ivy]

So, no ,it's not exactly what they're saying.

I didn't say "exact", I said "same / similar". My point is that there are other people that said he did not rehearse much at previous tours.

But was PG even involved with reharsals during History anyway ? How should he know ? As I said, I don't always understand Putnam.

It's easy "they did not require him to rehearse".

I'm not sure that was the point.
My point was, it'not logical. You can't say "the contract was not executed because MJ didn't sign it" and "we hired Murray, did not run any backgrounds checks because MJ wanted this doctor".
The contract was not executed because MJ died before he could sign it.
We don't know if he would have signed it or not, if we want to stay 100% objective.
By saying "MJ asked for this doctor" AEG assume the contract would have been executed. That's what's illogical.
But there's no answer to that, it's for the jury to decide.

did you read this part from the opening statements

utnam tells the jury they need to look to the whole agreement and says it starts with “at Artist’s request”. He says this is how it happened. It wasn’t something AEG mandated, it was something Michael wanted. He says the draft says Murray “acts as Michael’s general practitioner”. Putnam says the contract doesn’t say he will be, it says he is. The draft says Murray was already working for Michael. Putnam shows the jury the part about the “artist consent”. Putnam says this is the finalizing part he talked about before. He says before it could happen Michael had to finalize it expressly and in writing. Putnam reads the part that say “on behalf and at the expense of undersigned”. He says the undersigned is Michael Jackson. He says Michael or AEG did not sign it.

Putnam says no one has any idea if Michael would approve it and take Murray on tour. Putnam says it’s not important and what jury sees is that there’s no contract and it was at Michael’s expense not AEG’s. Putnam says AEG budgeted for Murray but they never paid him as Michael did not do the final approval. Putnam says the evidence will show that any payments to Conrad Murray came from Michael.

"I'can't reacall" ?? It was a long time since we had not heard it. Not better than "no" , well actually , "No" is a better answer.

I can't find the "I don't recall" in the news thread, are you sure ? So many "I can't recall", it gets confusing.

it was posted after my post

"Did Jackson have a doctor treating him during the "HIStory" tour, his lawyer asked.

"Not that I know of," he answered."

not that I know of is different from a no. "no he did not have a doctor" is a definitive answer while "not that I know of" is simply means I don't know.

 

[Mneme]

I'm sure you are right, but she also said (or I think I read) that the doctor (Flinkestein, I think), later agreed with her and said something like "Oh if you had brought them , you would be in trouble", and Karen said that thanks she didn't bring them with her.

The question -for me!- is: Why actually told Faye this episode in her witness? what is the aim, the point?

And I mean: She told this as a example about the unscrupulousness of Michael's physicians... an besides she gives Debbie a blow also (maybe she want to damage Debbie's reputation and credibility?)

We don't know about the circumstance; it is all maybe, maybe...
But the szenario could been: Klein/Debbie flew with a normal flyer and not with Michael's baggage. This means, Klein and Debbie in Bangkok had to go to the customs check. Everybody knows about the restrictiv drug laws in Thailand. For a beauty-case full of anti-pain-pads you hardly find reasons to the customs-officer.
Karen -in Michael's group- wouldn't have this problem.

sure, it had been not the legal way, but the pads should be exclusive for Michael and no another person.

Now, the Michael loving and carefulling Karen Faye had said "No".
Everybody may think about self.

 

[jamba]

So Michael didn't know the truth about his own health IMO. Bouee

How can you not know how you feel? True, you may feel great and yet have an illness that you don't know about that will hit you down the road--but anyone knows how they feel at a given moment. If he was at death's door, ready for 911 to be called, ready for a trip to hospice, can't even do one 360 spin, how come he said "I am fine" on the 19th and then performed well on the 24th and 25th?

There is just no way to say it was a consistent decline into basketcase status--going down the drain into skeletal incapacity. You have other people's testimony, you have the performances on the 24 and 25th (shown on film), you have the autopsy report, you have MJ's own statement on the 19th. Don't forget too that Murray's team got access to the 100 hours of film AEG shot of MJ and could not find anything to support their case.

 

[LastTear]

This article is about Dangerous tour, it's dated december 93. Avram was suing Michael for the cancellation of Dangerous.


.
Avram looks like a sick guy to me.

Avriam sued Michael again over the Millenium concerts.

 

[bouee]

I didn't say "exact", I said "same / similar". My point is that there are other people that said he did not rehearse much at previous tours.

I'll use the same tone as you : Did you read my posts ?
i'll quote myself :

The Michael "never rehearsed once" for History tour is either probably not true or mis reported. Maybe he said simething like "he didn't rehearse much" for History tour.

It's easy "they did not require him to rehearse".

Yes thank you, I know, I posted about that earlier. i'm not going to quote mayself again. I was saying I did not understand Putnam.

did you read this part from the opening statements

utnam tells the jury they need to look to the whole agreement and says it starts with “at Artist’s request”. He says this is how it happened. It wasn’t something AEG mandated, it was something Michael wanted. He says the draft says Murray “acts as Michael’s general practitioner”. Putnam says the contract doesn’t say he will be, it says he is. The draft says Murray was already working for Michael. Putnam shows the jury the part about the “artist consent”. Putnam says this is the finalizing part he talked about before. He says before it could happen Michael had to finalize it expressly and in writing. Putnam reads the part that say “on behalf and at the expense of undersigned”. He says the undersigned is Michael Jackson. He says Michael or AEG did not sign it.

Putnam says no one has any idea if Michael would approve it and take Murray on tour. Putnam says it’s not important and what jury sees is that there’s no contract and it was at Michael’s expense not AEG’s. Putnam says AEG budgeted for Murray but they never paid him as Michael did not do the final approval. Putnam says the evidence will show that any payments to Conrad Murray came from Michael.

it was posted after my post

"Did Jackson have a doctor treating him during the "HIStory" tour, his lawyer asked.

"Not that I know of," he answered."

not that I know of is different from a no. "no he did not have a doctor" is a definitive answer while "not that I know of" is simply means I don't know.

Again, did you read my posts ?
"I don't recall" is not the same, especially after so many "I don't remember".
"No" "and "not that I know of" is almost the same thing in this context.

Is it always so difficult to talk with you ?

I must ask, are you trying to drive people who don't agree with you away from this forum, or do you want a real forum where everybody can speak their minds and ask question without being afraid of asking ?

 

[bouee]

So Michael didn't know the truth about his own health IMO. Bouee

How can you not know how you feel? True, you may feel great and yet have an illness that you don't know about that will hit you down the road--but anyone knows how they feel at a given moment. If he was at death's door, ready for 911 to be called, ready for a trip to hospice, can't even do one 360 spin, how come he said "I am fine" on the 19th and then performed well on the 24th and 25th?

There is just no way to say it was a consistent decline into basketcase status--going down the drain into skeletal incapacity. You have other people's testimony, you have the performances on the 24 and 25th (shown on film), you have the autopsy report, you have MJ's own statement on the 19th. Don't forget too that Murray's team got access to the 100 hours of film AEG shot of MJ and could not find anything to support their case.

Yes there are conflicting testimonies, one side looks more logical to me than the other.

About Michael not knowing everything about his health, I said Murray was lying to everybody, as was shown during his trial. I think he certainly lied to Michael also about those weird symptoms. For example, telling him it was anxiety.

 

[ivy]

Is it always so difficult to talk with you ?

I must ask, are you trying to drive people who don't agree with you away from this forum, or do you want a real forum where everybody can speak their minds and ask question without being afraid of asking ?

LOL no. I have no issues with you and I did not forget your help during Murray trial.

Do I think you are being extremely defensive and taking everything personal? Yes. I don't understand why you are giving such response when there was absolutely nothing personal in my post - while your answer is insult and in a personal way. (I explained my post and never said "did you read my post" or called you / your personality anything. I referred you to ANOTHER thread about opening statements - not my post)

and I'm curious about why? It's not like we are the parties in this trial. So can I suggest to relax. This trial will be determined in a court of law by a jury, nothing you or I write here will have any effect on the outcome.

edited to add : I asked if you read the transcript thread simply because those transcript summaries were posted 2 week late and not everyone saw or read them. It wasn't a "tone" of "are you reading my posts" which I believe you misunderstood.

 

[LastTear]

Sometimes it's difficult working out what was actually said, for example I saw yesterday two tweets fairly close together from ABC, on the subject of Murray asking for so much money,one said 'Michael couldn't afford it' and the second said 'we couldn't afford it' - it can be very frustrating when we are hanging onto every word of a tweet.

ETA

Found them fromABC7

@ABC7Courts: "It was ridiculous," Gongaware said about the amount asked. "It was a lot of money for something like that and Michael could not afford it."

@ABC7Courts: "We couldn't afford it," Gongaware said. He spoke with Phillips and called Frank DiLeo, MJ's manager at the time.

 

[bouee]

LOL no. I have no issues with you and I did not forget your help during Murray trial.

Do I think you are being extremely defensive and taking everything personal? Yes. I don't understand why you are giving such response when there was absolutely nothing personal in my post - while your answer is insult and in a personal way. (I explained my post and never said "did you read my post" or called you / your personality anything. I referred you to ANOTHER thread about opening statements - not my post)

and I'm curious about why? It's not like we are the parties in this trial. So can I suggest to relax. This trial will be determined in a court of law by a jury, nothing you or I write here will have any effect on the outcome.

I am perfectly relaxed. kitty purring next to me, drinking a beer. Everything's fine , thank you.

One piece of advice : when someone tells you that they didn't like the tone of your post, just say for example that you're sorry if you have hurt that person's feelings, and that it was not what you meant. Calling the person defensive and saying theyre insulting you - a bit strong by the way- is definitely not the best way to solve the problem, unless what you want is confrontation.

I'm just giving my point of view, and when you insist on giving answers that are not related to the questions I ask, or post I made, it gives the feeling you are changing the subject, because you don't want to admit something. Especially when you end up saying what I said.

Yes the trial will be decided in a court of law. This thread is to comment, right ? So that's what everybody's doing, including me, commenting, asking questions if they don't understand something. People hace differnt points of view, different knowledge, and that's what makes it interesting.

 

[ivy]

One piece of advice : when someone tells you that they didn't like the tone of your post, just say for example that you're sorry if you have hur that person's feelings, and that it was not what you meant. Calling the person defensive and saying theyre insulting you - a bit strong by the way- is definitely not the best way to solve the problem, unless what you want is confrontation.

I added this to the above post but let me repeat it here. I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I was trying to ask if you saw and read the transcript thread - which was posted 2 weeks late. It was an innocent question with no ulterior motives. It wasn't a tone of "are you reading my posts?". To me it seems you misunderstood it.

and if we are giving advice : If you have a problem with my posts I'm more than willing to listen and find a middle ground with anyone - but not if any person gets personal calls me "difficult" or accuses me of trying to drive people of the board. Then I pretty much tune you out. Also if we are talking about "hurt feelings" consider how hurt you would be if someone is talking about your personality and make accusations about you?

and with that I'm done with this topic.

 

[Big Apple2]

So Michael didn't know the truth about his own health IMO. Bouee

How can you not know how you feel? True, you may feel great and yet have an illness that you don't know about that will hit you down the road--but anyone knows how they feel at a given moment. If he was at death's door, ready for 911 to be called, ready for a trip to hospice, can't even do one 360 spin, how come he said "I am fine" on the 19th and then performed well on the 24th and 25th?

Thank you so much jamba. I said just as much yesterday, i.e. Michael said "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine."

Which says TWO things to me: one being that MJ was well aware of everybody's concern and two being with the information regarding everybody's concern, he "tried" to put folks at ease by saying "I'm fine."

He could have easily said: "you know what, I haven't been feeling well, you're right."

 

[bouee]

I added this to the above post but let me repeat it here. I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. I was trying to ask if you saw and read the transcript thread - which was posted 2 weeks late. It was an innocent question with no ulterior motives. It wasn't a tone of "are you reading my posts?". To me it seems you misunderstood it.

and if we are giving advice : If you have a problem with my posts I'm more than willing to listen and find a middle ground with anyone - but not if any person gets personal calls me "difficult" or accuses me of trying to drive people of the board. Then I pretty much tune you out. Also if we are talking about "hurt feelings" consider how hurt you would be if someone is talking about your personality and make accusations about you?

and with that I'm done with this topic.

If someone has a proble with a "tone" it's a shared resposability.
I have no problems with your posts, it's actually the opposite. I only have a problem with the tone, twice, and I told you both times..

Another example of what I mean: instead of going ahead with confrontation, you could have just stated that : "Sorry, I was trying to ask if you saw and read the transcript thread - which was posted 2 weeks late. It was an innocent question with no ulterior motives.", I would have answered "Ok thanks" and that have been the end of it.

And that's the end of it, I agree. I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Big Apple2]

About Michael not knowing everything about his health, I said Murray was lying to everybody, as was shown during his trial. I think he certainly lied to Michael also about those weird symptoms. For example, telling him it was anxiety.

Don't forget about Nurse Lee.

According to her testimony (and her many television appearances) she said that she spoke to Michael AND WAS ADAMANT(!!!) about the use of propofol and she also schooled him on the effect propofol would have on a person IF they were using that drug for the wrong reasons. In my opinion, she broke it down for him, but Michael elected to trust Murray instead.