Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

The problem is if we only look at individual events many can be innocently explained ie Michael being cold, if you are not aware of anything else one could think he might have the flu, another time he could just be having an off day. I think it's only when the pieces start falling into place (Kenny's persistence) did AEG realise they needed to take some action. I'm just trying to be fair, we have the benefit of seeing this all together and we have hindsight.

I really don't know about other health care providers, don't forget when he needed to Michael had good days. (sorry Mike). But even if Michael and or Murray were against others being brought in - what could they do? Cancel? I doubt if their contact with Michael states they can cancel based on a suspicion of inappropriate drug use. I'm probably talking nonsense, I don't even know if MJ could have sued them.

No , you're not talking nonsense.

About other heakthcare providers, I'm pretty sure Murray's behavior would have looked suspicious (how come the patient is losing weight, how come theres no medical record, how come he's not giving real explanations, how come Michael has been degrading--the same as EMS, ER doctors, etc..reacted.

If I try to be fair, at this point I can only have more than strong suspicions about Phillips, doubts about Gongaware because of his shaky story. it's pretty difficult to understand who knew what and when. We have all this mass of information coming from a lot of different people who did not necessarily talk to each other about everything. So it's important to figure out who knew what and when.

 

[bouee]

see the thing you are saying is actually controlling Michael's medical care and this is the inconsistency here. On one hand people argue that AEG shouldn't be involved in Murray's hiring / contract/ payment on the other hand you expect them to bring and force Michael to see other doctors.

The best they could do if they suspected Murray was to say to Michael "we aren't paying for him" and end negotiations. that doesn't mean Michael would stop seeing him. He could see Murray and pay on his own. AEG cannot force other health providers on Michael or anyone for that matter. Apparently he denied seeing a physical therapist according to Payne. Similarly you can't really force a person go into rehab or get medical care.

I don't think it's inconsistent , it's because of the timeline :

1- they shouldn'thave gotten involved- it was a misake from AEG's lawyers.

2-they got involved + even started to talk to Murray directly, acting as if he was part of the tour personnal, when they say it was Michael's personnal physican (AEG is being inconsistent here)

3- problems happen. What do you do from there ?
3.1 leave the sinking ship and tell Michael to deal with Murray himself ? not good but why not
3.2 stand up to the situation and try to deal with it and try to help Michael- that was not only nice to Michael, it was in their best interest too. Their case would be more easily defendable if they had done that.

That's why I can't begin to understand Phillips attitude.

 

[serendipity]

Pg colors artwork was designed to fool Michael, nothing else, he was treating him as if he was retarded. To me, such a behavior is serious enough, but it doesn't really matter, because it didn't work anyway.

Someone brought up the prices at stores being .99 to "fool" people into thinking they are paying less. I thought it was a good analogy. Another point of view could be - the thing with the colored calendar and making the days off stick out more may have made MJ be less nervous/stressed/anxious about the shows and be more relaxed? (Though PG may not have been thinking in that direction exactly)

Hougdahl's mail is very interesting if you see that only 4 days after the Wisconsin sausages he writes aboout Michael degrading in 8 weeks , and not being able to do the 360° spins that he was doing in april. How was Michael 4 days before ? How does that fit with the 8 weeks ? Was he able to do 360° spins on 15th june. Why was it not important on June 15th ?

I don't think it's that impossible. On the 19 was when MJ had the chills and it obviously made people more concerned. And just 4 days later he was able to perform great. It's possible that before the 19 episode they thought he just needed to eat to put on weight.

 

[bouee]

Someone brought up the prices at stores being .99 to "fool" people into thinking they are paying less. I thought it was a good analogy. Another point of view could be - the thing with the colored calendar and making the days off stick out more may have made MJ be less nervous/stressed/anxious about the shows and be more relaxed? (Though PG may not have been thinking in that direction exactly)

yes, you have a point.

I don't think it's that impossible. On the 19 was when MJ had the chills and it obviously made people more concerned. And just 4 days later he was able to perform great. It's possible that before the 19 episode they thought he just needed to eat to put on weight.

There are 2 contradictions : 8 weeks + spins in april. He would have said he was doing spins 4 days ago.

the problems were there , but :

1- the issue would be who knew what and when. If you look at the emails, june 15th is more with Gongaware, it's not clear what Phillips knew. June 19th/20th it's more phillips who gets the info, Gongaware did not receive everything.

2-Why did Hogdahl not say anything about this on june 15th ? Was it because he thought others already knew, ie Gongaware ? Was it because they didn't take Michael seriously ? From the general info we have and Phillips strong reactions when there is a problem, (ex the talk about firing Karen, or later his attitude to Ortega) + those "jokes" the atmosphere was not healthy, some people could have felt uncomfortable relaying problems.

The decision that Phillips made, he made it on 20th, not knowing about what would happen on 23rd & 24th.

 

[AliCat]

Is quoting Ray Chandler's book about Michael Jackson having a headache and Evan Chandler mixing up a bunch of chemicals, in the name of pharmaceutical's, now an authority figure in this trial now going on on whether Murray was asked by AEG Live to use Propofol to help Michael Jackson in his insomnia, like Michael Jackson had problems sleeping during the HIStory Tour because Michael would be performing 50 Shows over a 9 month period?

 

[Aquarius]

I want the dr to explain himself too. What I don't understand is what happened. Did Michael have surgery, was given an addictive drug, & naturally became addicted to it. Or did he have surgery, started taking too much of his drug, became addicted & then used it when he did not need it. I don't understand what happened & people are getting the sense that he just started abusing his painkillers. Why did he have to have a drip for 24 hours, unless the pain was very severe. Panish mentions the 24 hour drip but does not explain why the drip was given. Maybe the information is in the deposition.

People should know by now that Michael became addicted to pain meds long time ago, he said it himself.

The 24 hrs drip doesn't make sense to me. The doc said he couldn't give him an injection because of the scars, I don't know about injection sites, but I think he could had just give him the shot in the same area where he put the needle for the drip. Again I don't know about injections but I think he just was exaggerating to create more drama. But also, since I noticed that Panish only picks certain phrases from emails & depos, I would like to hear the entire story from Finkelstein himself. I don't trust Panish, he's picking & choosing certain statements to create his case, he's not telling the entire story. I don't know if he's confusing the jurors but he created a tornado inside my head.

 

[ivy]

different people act differently and it's obvious that not all problems were obvious and not all were taken seriously. also an email started with "I'm not being a drama queen" is also very telling.

how about this for a scenario

Michael signed the contract, he was thin. People thought he could put on weight / muscle as many dancers do it while practice. Ortega's duty is to put the tour together. New dancers, new musicians he wanted everyone to rehearse for the best show. Kenny was not happy that Michael was not showing to rehearsals . Gongaware did not care that much about rehearsals, he thought Michael would be fine when it's time to set foot on the stage. Perhaps Ortega complained and they went to talk to Michael & Murray about it. A schedule was agreed upon and everyone was again happy. They perhaps even thought Ortega was exaggerating or being a drama queen.

Phillips wasn't at the rehearsals, Gongaware claims he was working and not paying attention. June 14 Murray did not allow Michael go to rehearsals, Ortega wasn't happy and he expressed that. June 19/20 is the main day that the alarms sounded. One person said "I'm not being a drama queen" - meaning take me seriously. Ortega was writing emails, Karen forwarded stuff. They immediately started talking about "what is going on here". They had no idea, they thought whether it was chemical or not, they talked about a psychologist, nutrition, physical therapist and so on. They also said " we arranged for a meeting and we will find about it tomorrow".

they went to a meeting with Murray which apparently he scolded Ortega, michael said "I'm fine". The details of that meeting is very important, we don't know what Murray said and how convincing he was but Phillips left that meeting with thinking Kenny was exaggerating. Yes he might have been fooled by Muray.

June 23/24 th people were following Michael's process, they had called back Dileo, Phillips said he would attend the rehearsals and he did. What they saw was the best rehearsals. So perhaps they were relieved, they thought Michael was fine and Ortega exaggerated.

I think they just ran out of time. If Michael had any future bad days, they could have a reason to suspect that Murray's and Michael's promises weren't good enough and they need to bring in another doctor, or try to cancel or postpone the shows. Given that Murray probably did not have license for UK, he might not even make it there and "firing" him would solve itself without AEG needing to do anything.

We have the power of hindsight. We know Murray was pumping Michael with multiple drugs for 6 weeks and he was probably having close calls or nervous system issues with that treatment. But at that time they did not know it. They even wasn't sure what the problem was.

 

[smoothlugar]

let's not forget that that by the law of the case Murray is an independent contractor. I tend to believe - although did not check CA laws - there should be a difference between an employee and independent contractor in regards to supervision

That’s very important. If I were a juror that would be one of the main (and first) things I would expect the judge to clarify and instruct me as a member of the jury.

the claim is about negligent hiring and supervision and retention . my posts only address hiring part because without it the rest won't matter.

why the emails are being shown?

Simple it's Jacksons "here are the warnings sent so they should have known and they did not do enough" argument. What they expected to do can range from supervising Murray, firing Murray, getting other help for Michael and to delay / cancel the tour.

AEG is using the emails to show that the warnings weren't about drugs or Propofol, it was about Michael's weight and mental health and they did what they could which was immediately arranging a meeting and discussing what they can do to help. As they don't agree that they hired Murray , supervising or retaining murray is not something they would do.

You are right, but again, I would ask myself if the 2 drafts of contract (the first on June 15th, and the 2nd on 23rd June) legally are considered in themselves proof of "hiring", though it was not signed and executed.

 

[bouee]

different people act differently and it's obvious that not all problems were obvious and not all were taken seriously. also an email started with "I'm not being a drama queen" is also very telling.

how about this for a scenario

Michael signed the contract, he was thin. People thought he could put on weight / muscle as many dancers do it while practice. Ortega's duty is to put the tour together. New dancers, new musicians he wanted everyone to rehearse for the best show. Kenny was not happy that Michael was not showing to rehearsals . Gongaware did not care that much about rehearsals, he thought Michael would be fine when it's time to set foot on the stage. Perhaps Ortega complained and they went to talk to Michael & Murray about it. A schedule was agreed upon and everyone was again happy. They perhaps even thought Ortega was exaggerating or being a drama queen.

Phillips wasn't at the rehearsals, Gongaware claims he was working and not paying attention. June 14 Murray did not allow Michael go to rehearsals, Ortega wasn't happy and he expressed that. June 19/20 is the main day that the alarms sounded. One person said "I'm not being a drama queen" - meaning take me seriously. Ortega was writing emails, Karen forwarded stuff. They immediately started talking about "what is going on here". They had no idea, they thought whether it was chemical or not, they talked about a psychologist, nutrition, physical therapist and so on. They also said " we arranged for a meeting and we will find about it tomorrow".

they went to a meeting with Murray which apparently he scolded Ortega, michael said "I'm fine". The details of that meeting is very important, we don't know what Murray said and how convincing he was but Phillips left that meeting with thinking Kenny was exaggerating. Yes he might have been fooled by Muray.

June 23/24 th people were following Michael's process, they had called back Dileo, Phillips said he would attend the rehearsals and he did. What they saw was the best rehearsals. So perhaps they were relieved, they thought Michael was fine and Ortega exaggerated.

I think they just ran out of time. If Michael had any future bad days, they could have a reason to suspect that Murray's and Michael's promises weren't good enough and they need to bring in another doctor, or try to cancel or postpone the shows. Given that Murray probably did not have license for UK, he might not even make it there and "firing" him would solve itself without AEG needing to do anything.

We have the power of hindsight. We know Murray was pumping Michael with multiple drugs for 6 weeks and he was probably having close calls or nervous system issues with that treatment. But at that time they did not know it. They even wasn't sure what the problem was.

yes more or less:

re june 15th :
- what about the planned intervention ?
- Why is Pg so confiused ?
- why doesn't he remember his "remind him.." email
- why was CM dodging Frank ?
- Why that difference between june15th /19th emails from Hougdahl ?

The only answer I could come up with now : they were already visible problems back then, PG probably knew.

re June 20th :
- why would Murray scold Ortega when ortega tried to call him and Murray wasn'there and didn't see what happened ? Wouldn't Murray, as a doctor, want to know about these things ?
- can you explain to me Phillips reaction on june 20th ? Why send those e mails to Leiweke and Gongaware's private accounts about how Ortega is concerning him ? Why lie to Ortega ? Phillips was worried himself after the june 19th thing, why wouldn't he want to know about potential further problems ?

If that's so, why don't they put the blame on Murray now that they are on trial because of him ?

 

[somewhereinthedark]

I have always thought from Day One that the reason Michael was "thin" and having chills was because of CONRAD MURRAY, pumping him with Propofol and other drugs. Michael trusted Murray, because he was a HEART doctor. Michael thought that this quack knew what he was doing. There is absolutely NO ONE ELSE to blame, except Conrad Murray. Unless, someone offers proof otherwise, this is what I will continue to believe. Btw, AEG are son-of-a-bitches, however, I don't believe they are responsible for Michael's death, Murray is. The Jackson family doesn't care about justice for Michael. Katherine is doing this for $$$$ for her to help her grown children when she is gone. She only USED the children in this lawsuit for her OWN purpose. IMO, she really doesn't give a damn if these kids get any money or not. Finally, If Katherine really wanted justice, SHE would have asked for restitution from Murray. When he gets out of jail, he is going to get paid to do interviews, write books and do nothing but TRASH Michael. It seems that this family cares NOTHING about Michael's legacy, memory or his children. Their only concern is $$$$.

 

[ivy]

That’s very important. If I were a juror that would be one of the main (and first) things I would expect the judge to clarify and instruct me as a member of the jury.

they'll get instructions before they go into deliberation

You are right, but again, I would ask myself if the 2 drafts of contract (the first on June 15th, and the 2nd on 23rd June) legally are considered in themselves proof of "hiring", though it was not signed and executed.

as the judge said it's a question for jury and they can conclude that even the contract was not signed there was an implied contract in place.

re june 15th :
- what about the planned intervention ?
- Why is Pg so confiused ?
- why doesn't he remember his "remind him.." email
- why was CM dodging Frank ?

I'm not sure "remind him" and "dodging Frank" is about Murray. Can't it be about Michael? Such as expected of him to come to rehearsals and Michael dodging Frank given that Karen claimed Michael did not want her let Dileo in his room.

- Why that difference between june15th /19th emails from Hougdahl ?

The only answer I could come up with now : they were already visible problems back then.

June 15 email to me shows that they did not think the problem was serious. There's a difference between thinking a person is thin and a person is sick.

Also different people will have different concerns for different reasons. to be blunt, Ortega and Bugzee etc might have been worried about Michael not being able to do a 360 spin, but as long as the tickets sold AEG would not care if Michael just sat on a sofa on the stage and sang.

re June 20th :
- can you explain to me Phillips reaction on june 20th ? Why send those e mails to Leiweke and Gongaware's private accounts about how Ortega is concerning him ? Why lie to Ortega ? Phillips was worried himself after the june 19th thing, why wouldn't he want to know about potential problems ?

as I said to me it seems the emails coming June 19 was enough to make Phillips and Gongaware and many other people to get worried about Michael. suggestions, what to do, what this could be about was all being discussed and the first thing they did was to arrange a meeting.

What happened in that meeting was Phillips left the meeting feeling everything was okay, he was convinced and believed what Murray said and it made him believe that Ortega was the problem or the drama queen.

If that's so, why don't they put the blame on Murray now that they are on trial because of him ?

this was explained before.

Jacksons argue that AEG shares the same and direct responsibility as Murray because they hired him. They want AEG and Murray listed on the same line in the verdict form. If AEG put the blame on Murray and the jury thought AEG hired Murray they could be found 100% responsibility for Murray. That's why they would not put the blame on Murray and that's the reason why they would put the blame on Michael.

 

[AliCat]

"I wanted to provide what was necessary for him to do his job...He wanted a doctor and I wanted him to be healthy."

Even after the offer of $150,000, Murray wasn't satisfied.

"He started saying he wanted more and I said, 'The offer is coming directly from the artist," Gongaware said.

Minutes later, he said Murray accepted.

"Did that seem desperate to you?" asked Panish.

"No," said Gongaware. "He just accepted Michael's offer." http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/209728581.html


I don't see anything menacing in what Paul Gongaware testified here. Again, to reiterate, Paul Gongaware was concerned with Michael Jackson's health. On that final meeting, on Saturday afternoon, the 20th of June, at Michael Jackson's home, Michael Jackson stated he was fine with everything, because he didn't state otherwise. He got it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, that Michael Jackson wasn't changing anything concerning Conrad Murray. That lidocaine that was used to administer Propofol to help with the burning sure can be toxic, which is why I think Michael Jackson was showing symptoms the way he was, including effecting his nervous system, with hot and cold going on at the same time. It was not because Michael Jackson used drug's habitually like Kurt Cobain did with his heroin usage. I wonder if Conrad Murray ever knew about Michael Jackson's phone call to Cherilyn Lee because it was all around the same time as the final meeting taking place about what the heck is wrong with Michael Jackson. Everyone sees symptoms but can't exactly clarify the root cause. Which is why Klein's name was tossed around. This was a possibility, after all Michael sang about the same drug that Arnold Klein used to help Michael Jackson with his dermatological applications, demerol. Demerol was administered the same as the lidocaine, to help with the main surgical procedure.

 

[bouee]

Sorry, i edited my post while you were answering, you obviously did not see evrything :

I'm not sure "remind him" and "dodging Frank" is about Murray. Can't it be about Michael? Such as expected of him to come to rehearsals and Michael dodging Frank given that Karen claimed Michael did not want her let Dileo in his room.

here is the e mail, the "reminding him" part can't be about Michael. About Michael dodging Frank, that's what I thought initially, but Bubs said it didn't make sense , the way the mail is written makes it likely it was CM who was dodging Frank. Bubs convinced me it's very likely CM he's talking about. (PG would/should have specified Michael wad dodging Frank, since it's clear he talking about CM in his first sentence. Likely doesn't mean 100% sure though).

Frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting w/ the doctor... We want to remind him that it's AEG not MJ who's paying his salary We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been dodging Frank so far.

how can PG not remember that e mail, given the chain of events that it started, leading to a planned intervention , and so why a planned intervention ?

how can he be so confused about his story , like for example saying he wanted to make sure CM had everything he needed and 2 sentences later wondering why a nutritionnist was needed when a full time dcotor was there, and then saying it was usual for Michael not to come to reharsals.

June 15 email to me shows that they did not think the problem was serious. There's a difference between thinking a person is thin and a person is sick.

Also different people will have different concerns for different reasons. to be blunt, Ortega and Bugzee etc might have been worried about Michael not being able to do a 360 spin, but as long as the tickets sold AEG would not care if Michael just sat on a sofa on the stage and sang.

The fact that they didn't care makes sense to me.
But that e mails show there were problems more serious than losing weight, and that it had been going on for 2 months, Michael was fine before that.
Bugzee must have voiced his concerns to someone else, or assumed they knew, because it was obvious, that would explain the clarification to Phillips.

2 months = when Murray started to work for Michael. It's incredible that Phillips didn't connect the dots here.

as I said to me it seems the emails coming June 19 was enough to make Phillips and Gongaware and many other people to get worried about Michael. suggestions, what to do, what this could be about was all being discussed and the first thing they did was to arrange a meeting.

What happened in that meeting was Phillips left the meeting feeling everything was okay, he was convinced and believed what Murray said and it made him believe that Ortega was the problem or the drama queen.

that one you probably did not see :
- why would Murray scold Ortega when ortega tried to call him and Murray wasn'there and didn't see what happened ? Wouldn't Murray, as a doctor, want to know about these things ?

- re Phillips & his reaction : why lie to Ortega and go behind his back if he was convinced by Murray ? Why not just tell him, "here is what the doc said, thanks for your concern now go back to work, the doctor will handle the situation I made sure of that & Michael himself said he was fine, you worry too much." .

He is shutting Ortega out, when Ortega has alot of experience in general, and a lot of experience with Michael in particular.

he says he was convinced by Murray, not Michael, by the way.

this was explained before.

Jacksons argue that AEG shares the same and direct responsibility as Murray because they hired him. They want AEG and Murray listed on the same line in the verdict form. If AEG put the blame on Murray and the jury thought AEG hired Murray they could be found 100% responsibility for Murray. That's why they would not put the blame on Murray and that's the reason why they would put the blame on Michael.

Yes I remember that. I answered at the time that I'm not convinced at all. AEG's lawyers don't need to adapt to the Jacksons in this case. They put up the best defense they can think of, according to the claim, not according to the verdict forms. They will put up a defense with the most credible facts for the jury. IMO, they leave Murray out of it because they have to, not because they want to.
The thoery "we were convinced by Murray because he is a doctor, licensed in 4 states, was Michael's family doctor for 3 years, was recommended by Michael, Michael was fine at first, we had no reason to suspect him" is far more credible than putting the blame 100% on Michael, the jury will wonder about that.
The argument : "you can't associate Murray to AEG" because Murray's a doctor, not us, and we did not choose him, Michael insised on hiring Murray would be a valid argument as well.

 

[Aquarius]

From Michael's statement , what happened is : pain was due to scalp burn/surgery, he was given pain medication , ( strong pain meds are based on morphine and are addictive, so there was probably no choice at the time) , he became dependant, and at a certain time - I'm guessing allegations- started taking too much and/ or used them for anxiety (that medication can have some "high" side effect, which is why certain people use them as a recreational drug). It got out of ocntrol, he had to go to rehab.

Bouee, for certain we will always know what Michael said about his addiction to pain meds. I'm thankful you're saying it is your guess that the allegations might be a factor for him to use it more. Honestly, the more I learn about Michael I understand why some people recur to alcohol & drugs to escape reality, but my assumption doesn't mean that that was the route Michael chose. Thanks again for making it clear that it was only your guess.

As to why a doctor will use that, a doctor has to deal with pain, and will do what he can, a doctor can not do miracles. He will try to find the right balance to alleviate the pain without causing too many side effects. Side effects are not always possible to avoid , so sometimes the doctor will have to make a difficult decision and chose between 2 evils, in his patient's best interest.

What I mean is , in spite of being addicted, he was in pain due to the surgery at this particular point in time. So the doctor had to give pain med anyway.

Agree. the doc had to alleviate him. Have a question, couldn't the doc try another pain med? I don't know about those meds but like you said the doc had to choose between 2 evils.

Giving it IV instead of orally could be for Michael to have a steady dose all the time, instead of pills that will give you a high dose that will fade away, and then you will have to take more pills. Maybe he used it IV and took the pils away from Michael so the doctor could control the dose, maybe the IV was just so Michael could rest and not be woken up by pain (steady dose that keeps coming in)
All thses are assumptions, only a doctor could explain it, what I mean is that it doesn't say anything about Finkelstein IMO, we'll have to wait for more info.
I agree with Putnam on that, these things have to be put in context, and only a doctor, not a lawyer , can evaluate a treatment or if the doctor crosses a line.

Actually he wanted to give him a shot on the butt and not through the 24 hr period.

Putnam is right. Panish just picks part of statements to build his case.

E mails insulting or making fun of Michael, more or less kindly, came from too many people IMO (Trell, that person whose name I don't remeber who called him a freak, Gongaware, Hougdahl), over a long period of time (january to mid june).
It's beginning to show a general atmoshere, it was fun to make fun of Michael. The point could be that they were laughing about his health problems , which mean they saw them, but did not take them seriously.
There are only 4 days between Hougdahl's Winsconsin e mail, and his e mail to Phillips where he says he has been watching Michael degrading for 8 weeks , giving the 360° spins example.
This is very telling, when Hougdahl sent that Winsconsin e mail, Michael had already been degrading in front of him for over 7 weeks, he was already not able to do the 360° spins. That did not happen overnight.

Calling Michael or anyone by derogatory names is disrespectful & cruel. Just hope Michael never knew about that. Is it disrespectful to call Michael Mickey? In my heart I call him Mickey too, is it wrong?

I don't think they were making fun of Michael. I believe those people are rude & crude, that's how they are and I'm not excusing them for the name calling, they're rude & disrespectful but I don't think they were making fun of Michael or of his health.

The bolded, there's a difference between calling someone names and disregarding someone's health. I disagree with your opinion that because they were making fun of Michael, they were also making fun of his health. I'm not saying AEG is composed of saints, they are not, but I don't think they were responsible for Michaels death or for Conrad's behavior.

Because, as you say, they tried to help with a nutritionnist while a doctor was there full time. The fact that Murray was full time was known by Gongaware & Phillips. And as Gongaware very rightly said, why need a nutritionnist when there is already a doctor ? The doc can have a look at the menus, and talk to the chef and Michael, it doesn't take that much time since he is supposed to know Michael's health and what he needs.

So i guess that's why PG felt he "had to check if CM had everything he needed" (almost the same words that Ortega used in his june 14th e mail to PG) which can be a polite soft translation for "remind him of what is expected of him", especially when CM had been "dodging Frank".

They knew the doctor was not doing his job & that something was wrong with him, and it bacame evident on june 19th/20th, as Michael's health kept getting worse inspite of a doctor being there all the time. That's where it becomes negligent and shows lack of supervision.
At that point (19th/20th) Phillips had enough info to connect the dots, and he was very close to find out. He chose to support Murray AND shut Ortega up. That's HIS choice. Michael might be responsible for what he did, but so is Phillips. As i said earlier, Phillips made the worst possible choice, he has some explaining to do.

CM was not supposed to talk about his treatments, that's right, but AEG went to talk to him instead of talking to Michael. AEG were not supposed to do that, though it can be understandable if they were trying to help. IMO , the fact they went to Murray shows an employer/ independent contractor relationship, but doesn't say anything about being negligent or failing to supervise him. Did they talk to Kai Chase, did they talk to Klein ? No.

What I think happened here was that AEG, especially RP trusted Conrad. Remember there was meeting an Michael was disoriented and that day he saw Klein. So, if AEG had to doubt someone it was Klein not the good doctor Murray because, i don't remember if it was on the same meeting after Michael didn't show to rehearsal, after the meeting when Michael showed to rehearsal, he was great.

In ref to the email to shut up KO, I think it was just to calm the waters but not because they didn't care. I think Branca's email was dated the 20th which mean they were trying to help Michael. Not to sure about the date on Dileo's phone call but wasn't around the same time too.

Of course the doctor shouldn't talk about his patient, but since AEG had an issue with Michael's health they went anyway. Any good doctor would accept any inquiries about his patient but the doc doesn't have to answer them or give details of the illness or treatments. Did Conrad tell them what Michael's issues were? When the insurance reported to AEG Michael pass the test with flying colors, they're giving info about a patient but they're not divulging details. And if Conrad said something superficial in re to Michael's health to AEG, I don't think that would show the relationship of employer/employee Panish wants to establish.

I don't think they would talk to Klein. Remember the meeting, Gonga said Michael was disoriented after a visit to Klein's office.

On thing I want to emphasize is that calling derogatory names is cruel, just hope Michael never heard them say those things, it's cruel. But that doesn't mean there was disregard for Michael's health, I haven't seen that yet. They thought Michael's problems were Psychological, nutritional & drug related but they never thought it was something more deadly as receiving the mortal Conrad's potion almost every night.

No matter what we say, the jurors have the last word. Just hope Panish don't confuse them too much & hope they see, hear & read all the evidence & use common sense at decision time.

 

[bouee]

Bouee, for certain we will always know what Michael said about his addiction to pain meds. I'm thankful you're saying it is your guess that the allegations might be a factor for him to use it more. Honestly, the more I learn about Michael I understand why some people recur to alcohol & drugs to escape reality, but my assumption doesn't mean that that was the route Michael chose. Thanks again for making it clear that it was only your guess.

Agree. the doc had to alleviate him. Have a question, couldn't the doc try another pain med? I don't know about those meds but like you said the doc had to choose between 2 evils.

Actually he wanted to give him a shot on the butt and not through the 24 hr period.
.

thank you

re using pain med for anxiety : If Michael did that at the time - I think he probably did, I wouldn't use the word "choice" about this. Anxiety was probably huge and very difffficult to bear, that article said the wether condtions were horrible (100 °f, 100% humidity), + he was tired : Anxiety will make you do things you wouldn't normally do + certainly made the physical pain more intense. I would say it would also be probably difficult to know which is what.

re could they have used anything less : If the doc could, they would have. Some doctors sometimes cross the line by giving too much medication, but we're talking about a severe burn, so I would not question that. Before that burn, Michael had no problem whatsoever with medication, there would have been no dependency issue to sart with, without that burn. Did doctors give too much during the dangerous tour ? I have no idea. All I can say is that it is a difficult situation for a doctor.

We heard during Cm's trial that now there were better meds than demerol for example. Demerol was widely used in the 90s, for lack of better solutions at the time, they said it was not really used anymore, because they have new meds with a differnt combination using less morphine and more other pain med, that would reduce dependancy and tolerance issues. So a little bit less opiates, but they are still present in pain meds. To my knowledge, opiates, and so morphine are still used because scientist have not found a better solution yet, though they found ways to reduce them in some cases.

A shot in the butt vs IV : it doesn't make sense to me , you still have to insert a needle anyway.
I'm not a real medical professional , but do we have easily accessible veins in the butt ? That would mean IM (not in blood flow) instead of IV (in the blood flow) , but still that doesn't make sense, IV (in a vein, in blood flow) is more difficult to do than IM. So basically , it doesn't make sense. At least not to me at least. As I said, you still have to insert a needle.

Re the rest of your post, I think it's clear where I stand on that... i'm not saying AEG are bad guys, except for Phillips that I'm not going to marry anytime soon that's for sure. For me , so far, Jacksons have a point.

 

[AliCat]

"The deputy medical examiner (Dr. Christopher Rogers) testified that the 5-foot-9 Jackson weighed 136 pounds when he died and that X-rays showed he suffered from arthritis in his lower spine and fingers."

This tells us that Michael Jackson did have physical pain before he died. Michael Jackson did see a pain specialist during his lifetime.

"Dan Anderson, a toxicologist with the coroner's office, testified that Jackson's blood, urine and internal organs showed traces of the anti-anxiety drugs Valium and Lorazepam"
Valium - is mainly used to treat anxiety, insomnia
It is also used as a premedication before certain medical procedures

Lorazepam impairs body balance and standing steadiness and is associated with falls and hip fractures in the elderly
Lorazepam is used for the short-term treatment of anxiety, insomnia.

It sounds like Conrad Murray was using small amounts of lorazepam and valium in his preparation of using Propofol. We know that Michael Jackson did more rehearsing on June 23 and June 24, and with his arthritis in his lower spine and fingers, this would cause the pain of arthritis to increase. I don't believe that Michael Jackson was trying to escape mentally. He was dealing with the physical pain of his arthritis.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/07/local/la-me-jackson-trial-20130507
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazepam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorazepam

 

[bouee]

"The deputy medical examiner (Dr. Christopher Rogers) testified that the 5-foot-9 Jackson weighed 136 pounds when he died and that X-rays showed he suffered from arthritis in his lower spine and fingers."

This tells us that Michael Jackson did have physical pain before he died. Michael Jackson did see a pain specialist during his lifetime.

"Dan Anderson, a toxicologist with the coroner's office, testified that Jackson's blood, urine and internal organs showed traces of the anti-anxiety drugs Valium and Lorazepam"
Valium - is mainly used to treat anxiety, insomnia
It is also used as a premedication before certain medical procedures

Lorazepam impairs body balance and standing steadiness and is associated with falls and hip fractures in the elderly
Lorazepam is used for the short-term treatment of anxiety, insomnia.

It sounds like Conrad Murray was using small amounts of lorazepam and valium in his preparation of using Propofol. We know that Michael Jackson did more rehearsing on June 23 and June 24, and with his arthritis in his lower spine and fingers, this would cause the pain of arthritis to increase. I don't believe that Michael Jackson was trying to escape mentally. He was dealing with the physical pain of his arthritis.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/07/local/la-me-jackson-trial-20130507
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazepam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorazepam

Small amount of lorazepam ? It was not small, it was a contributing factor to his death. EDIT : it was injected.

When he began TII Michael was not abusing medication at all, on the contrary he was clean, there was no pain med at all.

Interesting information about arthritis though.

 

[bouee]

I'm not sure "remind him" and "dodging Frank" is about Murray. Can't it be about Michael? Such as expected of him to come to rehearsals and Michael dodging Frank given that Karen claimed Michael did not want her let Dileo in his room.



June 15 email to me shows that they did not think the problem was serious. There's a difference between thinking a person is thin and a person is sick.

Also different people will have different concerns for different reasons. to be blunt, Ortega and Bugzee etc might have been worried about Michael not being able to do a 360 spin, but as long as the tickets sold AEG would not care if Michael just sat on a sofa on the stage and sang.

Something that I just remembered re 15th june , well actually I think it goes along with the planned intervention thing. Where does the tough love thing fit in this ?

Ortega mentionned it in his 19th june mail, so it started before that.

Phew, too much stuff.. we should start a timeline. I should have mort time after june 15th, for 2 weeks, i'll see if I can figure out something.

 

[jamba]

re insomnia:

"To the world, Michael Jackson was a musical genius. But behind closed doors, Jackson suffered from bouts of insomnia as he focused on conjuring enough energy to practice for his tour. Although Jackson's 3 a.m. phone calls to 'This Is It' choreographer Travis Payne may have been a warning sign, Payne told PopEater that he and director Kenny Ortega suffer from insomnia too, so they overlooked Jackson's symptoms. The seriousness of Jackson's health was made clear when the music icon died unexpectedly at age 50 from an acute intoxication of the anesthetic propofol, which allegedly helped him sleep.


"A lot of times, Michael would call at 3 or 4 in the morning, and we would just continue working. That was when we'd be able to get a lot of things done because the phones weren't ringing, and we didn't have a schedule... We wanted everything to be perfect. We would have our days off... but while we were working, we were immersed in the process and burning the midnight oil. It was normal," Payne said.

Payne knew Jackson was taking pain killers, but he thought it was due to the pain he still suffered from his hair catching on fire during the 1984 Pepsi commercial. "The only thing we were aware of was the insomnia," he said.

Behind the scenes, Payne saw Jackson as a friend and dedicated father. The two met in 1993 when Payne became a dancer for his tour. Payne became his choreography partner soon after and then landed the role of associate director and choreographer for the planned 'This Is It' tour. Their friendship grew and Payne soon considered the 'Thriller' star a mentor who kept him grounded. "

http://www.popeater.com/2009/10/23/this-is-it-michael-jackson/

 

[bouee]

I guess those calls must have stopped after Murray started his "treatment".

 

[jamba]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 1h
Panish: Do you have anything in writing authorizing you to extend the tour to 50 shows?
Trell: Yes, we have the verbal approval

That is a strange response to the question. I can only assume that the verbal authorization was enough for AEG as threy assumed they could easily get Tohme to fax in a written agreement (??) since he had committed to it verbally. Why didn't they?

I do suspect this is why MJ got mad at Tohme (along with having all his possessions about to be sold at Julien's). On the other hand, Tohme could say MJ agreed, and who can dispute it now?

MJ told fans and friends he was not happy about this but apparently did not make an issue of it with AEG directly, and Bubs has a good point that he could have.

 

[Petrarose]

Sometimes I question whether Muarry was in fact giving Michael prof and the other drugs nightly before June. With all the the symptoms he had around father's day onward, how come he did not have them before, if Muarry was seeing him prior to rehearsals & was supposed to be medicating him each night?

He was spinning in April and then later he couldn't, I guess due to the effects of Muarry's doctoring, so what exactly was different closer to June that caused this change?

 

[AliCat]

At least this trial has cleared up one thing

He had no signs of being addicted to street drugs, such as needle marks or disease, he said(Dr. Christopher Rogers)

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/07/showbiz/jackson-death-trial

Lorazepam, a benzodiazepine as we have stated, was available in the Jackson home in both tablet and IV form. It bears pointing out that no patient, regardless of setting, should have access to pill forms of any medications they are also receiving IV. Jackson’s bedroom was littered with bottles of various bezodiazepines including in addition to diazepam and lorazepam, clonazepam (Klonipin) and temazepam (Restoril). A patient can potentially self administer any of these drugs causing dangerous potentiation of other medications, or cause an overdose when the care giver administers an IV medication not knowing about the oral dose.

This is one of the scenarios which the defense is claiming. It has become their position that Jackson took up to 8 lorazepam 2 mg tablets while Murray was out of the room. This is supposedly during the same 2 minutes Murray said he left the room prior to finding Jackson not breathing. Apparently they are inferring that this contributed to Jackson’s death. We can state that this is simply impossible. First, there were no pill fragments found in the stomach on autopsy. Second, absorption of lorazepam from the stomach takes far longer. Jackson would not have had ANY effect from an oral medication in the time frame specified. Third, IF Jackson had taken oral lorazepam in this quantity, one of two things would be seen: either no pills are in the stomach and there is a high blood level, or pills are found in the stomach and there is a low or no blood level. Instead we have no pills and a therapeutic blood level (neither high nor low, but rather the expected level from an appropriate dose). A therapeutic level of lorazepam in the blood is o.o1-0.2 mcg/ml. The blood level of lorazepam in this case is 0.169 mcg/ml, consistent with the IV administration by Dr. Murray (below), and is an expected, non-toxic, therapeutic level.

The coroner’s office did not test the gastric contents for an actual level of lorazepam, since the blood results which showed a low amount of lorazepam, any amount in the stomach would be irrelevant to the cause of death. The defense claims that the amount of lorazepam in the stomach was 4x the amount found in the blood according to subsequent testing they had done. This would not have affected Jackson however, since it is the amount in the bloodstream which affects the patient. Rather they are using this to claim that Jackson took oral lorazepam without Murray’s knowledge, apparently trying to bolster the claim that Jackson swallowed propofol without his knowledge. It seems a far stretch that even IF Jackson took oral lorazepam without Murray knowing (a medication he takes is prescribed and has taken orally many times before), that he would drink propofol (a medication never given to him orally before). Especially when he has someone willing to inject it into him every single night.

Murray has told the police that he administered 2 mg IV lorazepam at 2:00 am and then again at 5:00 am. This is consistent with the toxicology results and is likely the truth. In an average patient, the level of lorazepam in Jackson’s blood would produce noticeable central nervous system depression (very sleepy or sleeping) and would potentiate the effects of any propofol that was given. In Jackson however, who had been receiving benzodiazepines in significant amounts on a daily basis for some time, tolerance may be an issue. A “therapeutic” blood level in such patients is not therapeutic at all and higher blood levels are required to obtain a therapeutic effect. For all of these reasons, lorazepam played little if any role in the death of Michael Jackson.

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial/

 

[8701girl]

This makes me wish we had a time machine so we could warn michel

 

[Ashtanga]

This makes me wish we had a time machine so we could warn michel

*big sigh*

 

[bluetopez]

Sometimes I question whether Muarry was in fact giving Michael prof and the other drugs nightly before June. With all the the symptoms he had around father's day onward, how come he did not have them before, if Muarry was seeing him prior to rehearsals & was supposed to be medicating him each night?

He was spinning in April and then later he couldn't, I guess due to the effects of Muarry's doctoring, so what exactly was different closer to June that caused this change?

Good point. All we ever had and will only have is Murray's side of the story and I never bought it all! This is a man who's own words got him convicted, a guy who didn't give a shit about MJ and is an obvious liar. So....

 

[bouee]

Murray has told the police that he administered 2 mg IV lorazepam at 2:00 am and then again at 5:00 am. This is consistent with the toxicology results and is likely the truth. In an average patient, the level of lorazepam in Jackson’s blood would produce noticeable central nervous system depression (very sleepy or sleeping) and would potentiate the effects of any propofol that was given. In Jackson however, who had been receiving benzodiazepines in significant amounts on a daily basis for some time, tolerance may be an issue. A “therapeutic” blood level in such patients is not therapeutic at all and higher blood levels are required to obtain a therapeutic effect. For all of these reasons, lorazepam played little if any role in the death of Michael Jackson.


http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial/

There a errors in this article : the dose of lorazepam injected by Murray was not clearly estimated because lorazepam takes a long time to disappear from the system, and we don't know the time it was given.

The estimation of the dose given at Murray's trial was between 11mg and 36mg, IV, 11mg is not a small dose, 36mg is unthinkable.

It was nowhere near the 4mgs Murray said he gave, and that this artocle is reporting

 

[Tygger]

Bouee, I am very intrigued by your posts regarding Phillips and Ortega. Hopefully we will discover the truth from Phillips but, I am unsure.

 

[bouee]

Sometimes I question whether Muarry was in fact giving Michael prof and the other drugs nightly before June. With all the the symptoms he had around father's day onward, how come he did not have them before, if Muarry was seeing him prior to rehearsals & was supposed to be medicating him each night?

He was spinning in April and then later he couldn't, I guess due to the effects of Muarry's doctoring, so what exactly was different closer to June that caused this change?

I hope that when other doctors will testify, especially if any of them gave propofol before, we will have more info and understand it better. If it true that Michael took propofol during the History tour, then why such a difference betwwen TII and History ?

The only thing we know is that Murray started giving valium during daytime, prescription was made on june 20th. It was in pill form, Michael took less than prescribed, as usual.
Valium would be used for anxiety, withdrawal, as muscle relaxant & it's a benzo.
There was ephedrine in his sytem at autopsy.

We know Michael was Ok on 23rd, already declining a little bit on 24th, though nowhere near june 19th. He was cold again on 24th.

I think what we saw in june could be lack of sleep maybe, though I don't know what it does with propofol for such a long time, Dr Shafer said there is very limited info about that, and that patients sedated for a long time with propofol did not show adverse effects. The patient was in ICU, so did not have busy days as Michael had.

The june thing could also be withdrawal, it very much looks like it IMO. It makes sense with the valium, and the boatloads of flumazenil Murray was buying.
That would mean more benzos than propofol in the beginning, more and more benzos until Murray thought it was too much, and switched to more propfol than benzos and caused a withdrawal syndrome.
What is weird is that benzos would have shown during the daytime more or less strongly depending on the benzos that Murray used (sleepiness, being out of it). Lorazepam is strong and would have shown, Midazolam less strong, I don't know how it would have shown.

Travis said that sometimes Michael was grggy in morning, Travis said he thought it was from waking up, that Michael was still a little sleepy.

So far we only have Alif Sankey saying he was not well in May.

E mail she sent to Kenny, 1 month before Michael's death

Sankey wrote to Ortega: "Please help me help you to get him back into that Magical Light, please let me help you help him find what was lost, his GRAIL," She wrote that she knew what she could say to Jackson that would make him respond and also offered suggestions to help lessen the pain of rehearsals.(AP)

Tidbits from Shafer's Q&A

I think Michael Jackson likely had a dependency on sedatives at the time of his death, because he was receiving intravenous sedatives every night. That type of regular exposure is almost certain to cause dependency.

MJJC: What do you think about June 19th (Kenny Ortega's email describing Michael- chills, seeming lost), and June 21st (hot and cold symptoms described by Cherylin Lee). What could those symptoms come from?

Dr. Steve Shafer: It is hard to know. The defense proposed that those might be withdrawal from Demerol, and that is correct. It might also be withdrawal from lorazepam. Propofol withdrawal hasn’t been described, because nobody other than Michael Jackson has ever received propofol night after night for insomnia. However, at least in theory it could be propofol withdrawal.

However, it could also be the usual sort of illness: the “stomach flu” or a bad cold. There is no way of knowing.

MJJC: May 2009 audio recording of Michael in which he was slurring his words attracted a lot of attention. In an interview Dr. Murray said Michael was under the influence of Propofol during that recording. However some people say Propofol does not cause slurred speech. What do you think about that recording? Any idea what drugs can cause that speech?

Dr. Steve Shafer: Sedatives cause slurred speech. This could have been caused by midazolam, lorazepam, or propofol.

MJJC: Do you know what the long-term effects of using Propofol would be? Murray has indicated that MJ was using Propofol for 6 weeks, apparently for sleeping 8 hours or so a night. Have you ever read about case studies of patients doing this or, as it was put forward in the trial, was MJ an experiment?

Dr. Steve Shafer: This was an experiment. I don’t think any other patient in the world has ever received this. There may be long term effects – that is a question that can’t be answered without clinical research. I don’t know what effects to expect, but it seems likely that tolerance and dependence would develop.

MJJC: Dr Kamangar said that dependency would be faster if benzos were given IV. Now was this a "treatment" that would have made him highly dependent on benzodiazepines? If Michael had survived, would he have been able to recover from this?

Dr. Steve Shafer: Yes to both questions. Intravenous drug use typically results in faster dependence. Regardless of the degree of dependency, one can recover from it with appropriate treatment. The big problem for Michael Jackson would have been whether he would be willing to stay away from intravenous sedatives for the rest of his life. Without a change in life priorities it is often very hard to wean individuals who are dependent on drugs.

MJJC: What are the known effects on the nervous system & the brain of long term Propofol use?

Dr. Steve Shafer: Not a lot, because it is rarely used for long term use. I have been able to find one report of a patient who received propofol in the intensive care unit for 51 days. This is from the conclusion of the article: “To our knowledge, this report represents the first documentation of propofol use for long-term sedation in a mechanically ventilated pregnant patient and the longest duration of continuous infusion propofol published in the medical literature. Propofol was used for 51 days with no documented maternal adverse events.” (Tajchman SK, Bruno JJ. Prolonged propofol use in a critically ill pregnant patient. Ann Pharmacother. 2010;44:2018-22)

This patient was weaned from propofol over several days without adverse consequences. So administration for 2 months appears to not have long term consequences, at least based on this example, and the fact that Michael Jackson continued to function at rehearsal. However, those are just two data points. More research needs to be done if one contemplates development of propofol for long term use.

MJJC: Does one get a "restful sleep" from Propofol? We have heard experts contradict each other on this.

Dr. Steve Shafer: The contradiction reflects the state of the science. I received propofol for anesthesia about a year ago, and I have given propofol to thousands of patients. There is often a feeling of having slept well after awakening from propofol.

However, studies suggest that propofol sleep it is quite different from normal sleep, and is not “restorative” the way that normal sleep is restorative. For example, dreams are important in brain function. Patients don’t dream on propofol, except at the time of awakening. My interpretation of the data is that propofol might be OK for getting a patient off to sleep, but that maintaining a patient on propofol for sleep (as we sometimes do in intensive care units) probably is denying patients restorative sleep.

MJJC: Is there any other reason for Flumazenil to be administered apart from reversing the effects of benzodiazepines (in this case Lorazepam)?

Dr. Steve Shafer: No.

MJJC: Can you explain your consideration of the Lorazepam levels, in more detail?

Dr. Steve Shafer: I’ll answer as well as I can, but I’m not sure exactly what you want to know. The lorazepam levels were high enough that you or I would have been very sleepy from them. However, patents become tolerant to lorazepam and related drugs (the “benzodiazepines”). Since Michael Jackson had a fairly high concentration, and according to Conrad Murray that was not enough drug to induce sleep, he must have been tolerant.

The defense wanted to attribute Michael Jackson’s death, in part, to oral lorazepam. The problem with this theory is that there was only a minute amount of lorazepam in Michael Jackson’s stomach. To explain this minute amount, the defense alleged that Michael Jackson swallowed lorazepam about 5 hours before the time of death. If that were true, then the lorazepam concentration would have peaked about the time Conrad Murray claims Michael Jackson was pleading for more drug to fall asleep. So that argument doesn’t make sense.

MJJC: According to autopsy report there was ephedrine found in Michael's body. It's a drug that aggravates insomnia. How ephedrine goes with benzos and propofol, could it subdue effect of these drugs?

Dr. Steve Shafer: There was a bottle of capsules composed of ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin in the room. Ephedrine is sometimes used in resuscitation. Since there was ephedrine in Michael Jackson’s autopsy urine, as well as the urine that was found at the scene, I would assume that the ephedrine was from oral ingestion, and not from administration as part of the resuscitation.

Ephedrine can reduce the effects of propofol and benzodiazepines on blood pressure and heart rate. Chronic ephedrine might aggravate insomnia.

 

[bouee]

Bouee, I am very intrigued by your posts regarding Phillips and Ortega. Hopefully we will discover the truth from Phillips but, I am unsure.

Maybe, and also have more information from Ortega. I have no idea what Ortega will say, he is in a difficult position. His testimony will be important.

I have not checked the witness list, I think it would be logical Tim Leiweke testifies, some of those e mails were sent to him.

Phillips is personnally sued, we'll see why. He did not have much experience with Michael, so I don't think the reason is that he was supposed to have witnessed Michael's previous problems.

My fear is that Phillips knowingly backed Murray, I mean that he knew or understood Murray was doing something weird, not necessarily what or the risks, and chose that path because he thought he could not delay the tour. That's not proven yet, but I don't get his attitude to Ortega, and I don't understand how he could not suspect Murray after all the info he received that night, and Murray's behavior towards Ortega at the meeting.

Phillips will have a lot of explaining and twisting to do, and might suffer from that contagious disease at AEG : memory loss.