Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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And what about Michael Jackson "not recalling" about sleep issues during medical examination for insurance policy?
Dr. Slavit was mainly asking about the last five years. He didn't testify that the patient provided "I don't recall" as an answer, he testified that the only health issue he was told about at the time (early February) was a cold and that he was taking antibiotic (which we know it's true, because of admitted evidence in the CM trial).

So maybe the insomnia reappeared a short later. How many witnesses have declared that they saw MJ more anxious after the press conference? Lee? Metzger?
 
the one question the keeps popping in my head: Would it have made any difference had AEG given money to MJ directly? MJ would have paid murray directly, but would that have stopped him from deviating from the very basic standard of care? such as lack of monitoring while administering propofol, which is what got MJ killed.

I don't think so. CM would have done exectly the same no matter who paid to him. The fact he agreed to administer propofol to MJ at his home shows his lack of ethics and went downhil from there. Also the result would have been the same, CM jail for a while, Jackson's wouldn't have taken restitution from him and Jackson's would have found way to sue someone with money, ie. blaming AEG for giving money for MJ so he could hire his own doctor.

Michael Jackson's death was terrible tragedy and extremely unfair. However we have to ask ourselves as not only fans but people who use their brains, logic and have some morals: how AEG should be blame for choosing Conrad Murray as Michael's doctor and suspect that he was unfit for it's role when MJ was happy with the doctor treatment of the most important people in his life, his children. I personally feel Jacksons claim is terrible ugly way to get money in any way. Most of us suffer horrible loss when we loose the love one. Please, I would like to know how many of you would go to that kind of extreme and lies to get money. Why to critize now all molestation "victims" for extorting money from Michael when his own family does the same: lying for money.

:agree: :bow:

I can't see how any of the pictures of Michael loving and caring for his mother and children proves in any way that AEG should have known Murray would give Michael Propofol in his bedroom without proper medical monitoring.

I read it somewhere that Panish showed a photos of kids with Kenya (the dog MJ gave to them). Defense should tell in their closing speech that KJ left Kenya to Havenhurst when they moved to new place, and kids have to travel from Calabasas to Havenhurst to see that beloved dog that MJ gave them.
 
It just come over on the lunchtime news here (UK) that 'Michael's relatives have been awarded £181 million'. I don't know anymore than that at the moment.

It doesn't sound quite right to me, but I guess we shall see.
 
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^^Noone has been awarded any money yet as there is still to come defenses closing argument, plaintiffs rebuttal and then jury gets the case.

That is the amount Jacksons want.
From BBC: Michael Jackson's family are seeking $290 million (£181m) in personal damages from concert promoters AEG over his death in 2009, it has emerged.
 
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I thought the way the AEG lawyer was laughing and smirking all the way through was disgusting.

Overall that was a good summary of AEG's role in contributing to Michael's death. I think the amounts that Panish discussed were quite reasonable considering what they have lost. Like he said, we can't propofol anyone at AEG to death, sadly, so economic damages is the next best way to hurt them.

What?! Panish said that, seriously? WTF?

That's the key question: who will the jury believe, the doctors who testified they told Gongaware about the sleep issues or Gongaware testifying "I don't recall" too many times?

Sleep issues? Did they tell him his insomnia was so severe they were putting him in a coma to treat it? Because if not, sleep issues seems like nothing much to worry about, who doesn't have sleep issues on big world tours? And having a doctor helping him with a sleep issue seems like a normal thing.

Hey, if the doctor who brought in the anesthesiologists in Germany to deal with the insomnia testified that he told promoter about his plan to deal with that, it is up to the jurors whether to believe it or not. Why should he lie? He is not an interested part in this trial as Gongaware is, hence his constant "don't recall".

That was the same doctor who "couldn't recall" about those German doctors. Same doctor who forgot to mention this important detail in his deposition and only remembered it when he was called to do damage control after his depo was played.
 
I think Brian Panish looked and sounded very tired.

I actually thought he was a bit drunk, just my opinion.
 
i agree with what panish said regarding the facts that nothing ever happened to michael up until aeg and murray got involved, yes he did take propofol in the past but his health didn't deterioate with such vilosity. Getting away from the heartbreaking moments though, when that fantastic montage played to the jurors, i cried like a baby :( laugh if you want...
 
"Panish moves on to the second question on the verdict form: "Was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?" Panish says it's obvious Murray is unfit and incompetent because he killed the King of Pop and wasn't trained to treat insomnia."

As per wording in proposed contract, he was to be hired for general medical needs and plaintiffs haven't shown shread of evidense that AEG knew CM was there to treat MJ insomnia with propofol. Even AEG may have known that MJ have problems to sleep, it doesn't mean that they conclude CM is giving propofol for it. Most people would think CM discribe sleeping pill, not anesthesia.
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"Conrad Murray asking for $5 million to go on tour was a red flag showing he was "unfit, incompetent and outrageous," according to Panish."

The fool is not the one who asks but the one who pays, and luckily he wasn't paid.
I had a giggle at when somebody over prices himself, it is supposed to show unfitness, incompitence and this person is outrageous:) From now on, if you go on job interview, make sure you don't ask too much of salary as if you ask too much, it shows you are incompitent and unfit for the job, and worst of all, it raises red flag:bugeyed
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"A detective working for the LAPD was easily able to determine Murray was financially "a mess," which was a motivation for what he did, according to Panish"

Also make sure when you apply for the job that you cannot have any debts as it will be seen as motivation go around killing people.
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Dr Murray is the reason why Michael was "deteriorating" not AEG.

Dr Murray was the one giving Michael propofol, not AEG.
 
"Like he said, we can't propofol anyone at AEG to death, sadly, so economic damages is the next best way to hurt them"

What?! Panish said that, seriously? WTF?

I think Panish was drunk or on tranquilizers!
So plaintiffs thinks AEG should be put the death, but it is ok to REAL killer CM to get 2 years in jail and no restitution, wtf is wrong with these people!!!! They are sick and twisted.
 
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Dr Murray is the reason why Michael was "deteriorating" not AEG.

Dr Murray was the one giving Michael propofol, not AEG.

And yet Dr Murray will shortly be a free man.

"Like he said, we can't propofol anyone at AEG to death, sadly, so economic damages is the next best way to hurt them"



I think Panish was drunk or on tranquilizers!
So plaintiffs thinks AEG should be put the death, but it is ok to REAL killer CM to get 2 years in jail and no restitution, wtf is wrong with these people!!!! They are sick and twisted.

Did Panish say that during closing? Must be great to sit up so high and pointing fingers to everyone else!
 
Originally Posted by elapentela
Michael Jackson's death was terrible tragedy and extremely unfair. However we have to ask ourselves as not only fans but people who use their brains, logic and have some morals: how AEG should be blame for choosing Conrad Murray as Michael's doctor and suspect that he was unfit for it's role when MJ was happy with the doctor treatment of the most important people in his life, his children. I personally feel Jacksons claim is terrible ugly way to get money in any way. Most of us suffer horrible loss when we loose the love one. Please, I would like to know how many of you would go to that kind of extreme and lies to get money.
^Really dislike this post. What are you implying - that those who think aeg have some liability in this case are brainless, illogical and lacking in morals?! There are some of us who have ignored the perceived motivation behind this case and have found what happened in the run up to tii disturbing and think aeg have a case to answer, from your post you seemingly haven't moved on from the fact that you don't agree with the jacksons bringing the case and think it's all based on lies. If you want to dispute the plaintiff's case use arguments, but to come to a discussion forum and make out that people who don't agree with your point of view are somehow stupid and immoral is just offensive.

Why to critize now all molestation "victims" for extorting money from Michael when his own family does the same: lying for money.
The jacksons have done the same as the arvizos? Exactly what lies about mj have the plaintiffs made in this trial that are at the same level as accusing mj of being a pedophile who molested little boys?
 
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Originally Posted by Victory22
I can't see how any of the pictures of Michael loving and caring for his mother and children proves in any way that AEG should have known Murray would give Michael Propofol in his bedroom without proper medical monitoring.
As vici pointed out, the pictures were to illustrate the bond between mj and his children for the purposes of noneconomic damages, but i assume you knew that. I imagine they were also to counter the assault on mj from putnam today on how mj caused his own death by endangering his own life and so selfishly orphaning his own children.

As for the knowledge of propofol being given, it's not an argument used by the plaintiffs in this case and it's not in the jury instructions either.

mneme said:
I thinks the AEG side was rolling their eyes because that showing of Michael videos was something what a shyster would do because lack of arguments and proofs.
Really? Why have aeg decided to go with an affirmative defence, that mj caused his own death. If they're so confident of not negligently hiring and supervising murray because of a lack of arguments and proof, why are they trying to put up an alternative scenario that mj's death was down to his own negligence?
 
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i agree with what panish said regarding the facts that nothing ever happened to michael up until aeg and murray got involved, yes he did take propofol in the past but his health didn't deterioate with such vilosity.

I was just wondering, was this the first time that Michael started using the propofol DURING the rehearsal period?

I know that the story has been that Mike would be very pumped up AFTER a show, but was he also pumped up AFTER a rehearsal?

I was just wondering.
 
Hey, if the doctor who brought in the anesthesiologists in Germany to deal with the insomnia testified that he told promoter about his plan to deal with that, it is up to the jurors whether to believe it or not. Why should he lie? He is not an interested part in this trial as Gongaware is, hence his constant "don't recall".

It's funny. When Michael used to repeat over and over "don't recall" during some of his deposition, some experts and of course we as the fans proclaimed him being very smart and well prepared by defense lawyer. Now , because it's the other side fans think it's not smart at all. I'm one of the biggest MJ's fans in the world (I even took American citizenship because of him) but I can not stand double standards and lying under oath for money. And there is no excuse for doing it. It's ugly and it doesn't matter who does it: Jackson family or Chandler family.

If I would be AEG lawyer I would just say that for Gongaware Michael Jackson wasn't the central subject of his life and he didn't need to recall everything about his dealing with him. As sad as it sounds I suspect that is the truth.
 
i agree with what panish said regarding the facts that nothing ever happened to michael up until aeg and murray got involved, yes he did take propofol in the past but his health didn't deterioate with such vilosity.

I'm not sure we will EVER know when Mike was healthy or when he was getting "one for the road." Just my opinion.

Point being, there was a picture of Mike in Las Vegas. I believe he had been in Las Vegas for a while and in this particular picture he was wearing a black suit jacket and pajama bottoms. TO ME he looked very, very thin and not well.

I don't know the exact date of that picture, but when I saw it, I became very, very concerned about Michael and his health. That picture was way before the whole AEG 50-date thing. That picture also caused a bunch of discussion on various MJ fan sites, which lead me to believe that I was not the only one concerned with Michael's health during that time period.
 
^Really dislike this post. What are you implying - that those who think aeg have some liability in this case are brainless, illogical and lacking in morals?! There are some of us who have ignored the perceived motivation behind this case and have found what happened in the run up to tii disturbing and think aeg have a case to answer, from your post you seemingly haven't moved on from the fact that you don't agree with the jacksons bringing the case and think it's all based on lies. If you want to dispute the plaintiff's case use arguments, but to come to a discussion forum and make out that people who don't agree with your point of view are somehow stupid and immoral is just offensive.


The jacksons have done the same as the arvizos? Exactly what lies about mj have the plaintiffs made in this trial that are at the same level as accusing mj of being a pedophile who molested little boys?

Excuse me, Arvizos still didn't lie under oath for money but of course they can do it in the future ( especially after
"having proof" from this trial about MJ's impairment because of drugs ). Plus don't be surprise about the possibility of the new sexual molestation claim from the Jackson family if there won't be any or not enough money from grandma in the future. What else some of Jacksons are left with? I would like to be mistaken but after all kinds of lies said by Jacksons to fit their agenda during this trial, I have the right to think like this.

Sorry, you can have your opinions and I have mine. What Jacksons are doing now with this case ( blaming the other party for MJ's death only because the only other person involved in the procedure going on in Michael's bedroom does not have money) is an ugly, disgusting and totally immoral.
 
I think even though it was just rehearsals that Michael felt pressured because he had not performed in a long time. He wanted the rest so he could be great in rehearsals. I am just guessing here. I think the email they have that AEG says that Murray works for them and they pay his salary is probably the most hurtful thing against them. I still thinks this could go either way. Just reading the comments here we are not all agreeing or thinking the same. Who knows what this jury is thinking.
 
And yet Dr Murray will shortly be a free man.
Did Panish say that during closing? Must be great to sit up so high and pointing fingers to everyone else!

I didn't watch their closing speech, so I don't know if he really said it. somebody posted it here that he did.
Panish is starting to sound like Jackson's. Poor Panish, its his own fault, but when you sleep with the dogs, you wake up with fleas.
Jackson's are pointing fingers to left and right and say others should have done this and that to save MJ. Yet they were partly responsible what happen to MJ, and they didn't do anything to help him. Jacksons says: AEG should seen this and should have done that, and we do nothing but collect the money either from MJ or AEG. To be honest, it is damn pity that AEG didn't pursue getting KJ's name in their verdict form.
 
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I think even though it was just rehearsals that Michael felt pressured because he had not performed in a long time. He wanted the rest so he could be great in rehearsals. I am just guessing here. I think the email they have that AEG says that Murray works for them and they pay his salary is probably the most hurtful thing against them. I still thinks this could go either way.

I hear you marebear, that sounds reasonable as far as why Mike was taking Propofol before the shows even started.

As to the so-called "smoking gun" email, my ONLY problem with that email is the fact that although the email clearly says "....and they PAY his salary" is not true, since NOBODY was paying Murray's salary.

In my opinion, had Murray been paid by AEG, then that email would have held more weight, but that's just me and my opinion. Hard to tell what the jury will think about Murray not being paid and the fact that Murray was already Michael's doctor before AEG came on the scene.
 
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Jackson's are pointing fingers to left and right and say others should have done this and that to save MJ. Yet they were partly responsible what happen to MJ, and they didn't do anything to help him.

I agree and that's just ONE more thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

I mean, out of the entire Jackson family we know that Mother spent the most time with Michael and had complete and unannounced access to him. Yet she expects AEG to know things that she "claims" she didn't even know and if she did know, she didn't necessarily believe.

Case in point: She said she asked Michael and he said he's not abusing drugs. She said that she didn't believe him, BUT what did she do about it? Apparently nothing!

AEG also asked Michael and Murray. Michael said "I'm fine," and Murray said "mind your own business." I don't know for sure, but what's the next step when a grown-up tells you "I'm fine?"

To be honest, if I were doing something I didn't want others to know about, I probably would have said "I'm fine" also.
 
I hear you marebear, that sounds reasonable as far as why Mike was taking Propofol before the shows even started.

As to the so-called "smoking gun" email, my ONLY problem with that email is the fact that although the email clearly says "....and they PAY his salary" is not true, since NOBODY was paying Murray's salary.

In my opinion, had Murray been paid by AEG, then that email would have held more wait, but that's just me and my opinion. Hard to tell what the jury will think about Murray not being paid and the fact that Murray was already Michael's doctor before AEG came on the scene.

I feel confused what to think because I can see both sides and I am not thrilled with the Jacksons or AEG. I am trying to keep an unbiased opinion and look at the evidence and see how I feel. The only side I am on is Michael's that I know for sure.
 
More food for thought. I appear to be doing a lot of "thinking" while waiting for today's proceedings to begin. LOL!

Anyway, I was thinking, when Michael told Nurse Lee that he felt "hot on one side and cold on the other," she suggested that he go to the emergency room right away. Although he didn't take her advice, I wonder why he didn't call another doctor to make a house call. It's not like he didn't have doctors come over and treat him in his home before.
 
I have thought that too. I wonder if Michael was happy with Murray especially because he wasn't getting the rest he wanted and wasn't feeling well. People were starting to questioning things.
 
I stand corrected. It seems the non-economic damages are included in the $1.6B. Seems to be a fair amount to me. It is most likely that Michael’s oldest had to attend school instead of the court proceedings.

Vici, nice job summarizing the plaintiffs’ closing arguments. I believe Panish did an amazing job. In the beginning, Panish said the plaintiffs’ would not dispute that Michael would abuse prescription medication during times of pain, stress and anxiety. They were clear throughout the trial that Michael had medical reasons for those prescriptions. Again, Michael passed with the substances given to him by the negligent doctor. He was not an active participant in his addiction in 2009. However, you will hear his past actions a number of years before 2009 re-interpreted as "secretive addict" actions in closing by the defense.

Michael Jackson's death was terrible tragedy and extremely unfair. However we have to ask ourselves as not only fans but people who use their brains, logic and have some morals: how AEG should be blame for choosing Conrad Murray as Michael's doctor and suspect that he was unfit for it's role when MJ was happy with the doctor treatment of the most important people in his life, his children. I personally feel Jacksons claim is terrible ugly way to get money in any way. Most of us suffer horrible loss when we loose the love one. Please, I would like to know how many of you would go to that kind of extreme and lies to get money. Why to critize now all molestation "victims" for extorting money from Michael when his own family does the same: lying for money.

Elapentela, Michael paid the doctor for general care of his children not to administer propofol to them so that concept lacks logic for me. Even Michael was not aware that the doctor administered propofol negligently however; his handwritten notes showed he may have felt something was amiss and the doctor needed to “practice.”

However you or anyone else feels about the Jacksons’ claim, they suffered the loss of a father and a son; there is no fabrication there. The jurors may believe the plaintiffs’ have shown it is most likely that AEG negligently hired the doctor as AEG did not show any evidence that Michael hired the doctor and the doctor was indeed hired by someone or in this case, some entity.

Michael never molested a minor so those were extortion attempts in which the first was successful. Is it logical that the plaintiffs’ presented so called fabrications that the defense did not take the time to debunk while defending themselves? Is it logical the judge believed these so called fabrications when she did not dismiss the case?

Excuse me, Arvizos still didn't lie under oath for money but of course they can do it in the future ( especially after "having proof" from this trial about MJ's impairment because of drugs ).

Elapentela, that is an incredible and utterly UNTRUE statement! Anyone who has reviewed their testimony knows how incredible and utterly UNTRUE that statement is and it is quite shocking to see it on a MJ forum.

And what about Michael Jackson "not recalling" about sleep issues during medical examination for insurance policy?

Elapentela, repeating, Michael’s insomnia did not resurface until April and the insurance evaluation was in February. Michael did NOT fabricate his answers during that evaluation. I am unsure why you insist that he did.

no he wasn't but the question (verdict 2) is that "the work he was hired for"? and question (verdict 3) did AEG knew this?
I would agree that Murray was incompetent for a sleep or anesthesia position but competent for general health care. so what was the work he was hired for - as far as AEG known or should have known?

Ivy, it seems quite simple to me. If AEG wanted to hire the doctor, they should have vetted him to ensure he could do what he was employed to do. If he was not there to deal with Michael’s general health care (in hindsight we know he was not) it was for AEG to discover that before the alleged hiring and it is all the more reason for them not to enter into a contract with him. This is what can happen when a third party does not vet a doctor.

"Conrad Murray asking for $5 million to go on tour was a red flag showing he was "unfit, incompetent and outrageous," according to Panish."

The fool is not the one who asks but the one who pays, and luckily he wasn't paid.

Bubs, Phillips testified he had no issue with the $5M request.

And yet Dr Murray will shortly be a free man.

Last Tear, involuntary manslaughter carries four years. As per California law, not the Jacksons, he only has to serve two.

I was just wondering, was this the first time that Michael started using the propofol DURING the rehearsal period?

Big Apple2, yes. The stress and anxiety of rehearsal was why Michael said he could not sleep. His preparation for the TII tour, not his non-commitment to the All Good Entertainment tour caused him quite a bit of grief.

I understand some want the Jacksons (Katherine and Michael's children) to fail in this trial due to their own feelings about random Jackson family members. However, this is a legal, civil trial and there has to be a legal reason for the Jacksons to fail. What evidence shows it is more likely AEG did not allegedly and negligently hire the doctor? The defense simply attempted to lower damages, not once did they suggest they did not hire the doctor.
 
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More food for thought. I appear to be doing a lot of "thinking" while waiting for today's proceedings to begin. LOL!

Anyway, I was thinking, when Michael told Nurse Lee that he felt "hot on one side and cold on the other," she suggested that he go to the emergency room right away. Although he didn't take her advice, I wonder why he didn't call another doctor to make a house call. It's not like he didn't have doctors come over and treat him in his home before.

Probably for the 'same reason'....he didn't want to have another doctor who might give him an ultimatum about going to hospital. MJ couldn't 'afford' to have a potential hospital admission before having his final insurance medical.. he probably wouldn't have got insurance.

MJ probably felt he could 'control' murray, and that Murray would 'treat' him at home and not send him to hospital.
 
Big Apple2, yes. The stress and anxiety of rehearsal was that high for Michael he could not sleep. His preparation for the TII tour, not his non-commitment to the All Good Entertainment tour caused him quite a bit of grief.

Do you REALLY believe that Michael's "non-commitment" to the All Good Entertainment deal would NOT have caused him added stress and anxiety.

When that "Jackson family induced" drama only lead to ANOTHER lawsuit against Michael Jackson. On top of everything else, he would have ONE MORE lawsuit to deal with, i.e., they were trying to inject themselves into the 50-dates, by any means necessary.

More of his money going down the drain in order to fight this lawsuit.

More folks poking into his private business in order to secure their own agendas.

More meetings wherein his Mother AND Father would badger him into hitting the stage ONE more time with his brothers.

More pressure to sign Leonard Rowe as his manager, coming from his own father.

You can't be serious!
 
As to the so-called "smoking gun" email, my ONLY problem with that email is the fact that although the email clearly says "....and they PAY his salary" is not true, since NOBODY was paying Murray's salary.

In my opinion, had Murray been paid by AEG, then that email would have held more weight, but that's just me and my opinion. Hard to tell what the jury will think about Murray not being paid and the fact that Murray was already Michael's doctor before AEG came on the scene.

There is more problems than that. Plaintiffs says that AEG pressurised CM, so CM felt pressure to give in to MJ demands.
The problem is that email was never sent to CM, his name was not one of the receivers. How could he feel pressurised if he doesn't know it?

Different note,
"When deciding how much to award Katherine Jackson and Michael's kids, Panish tells jurors they have to use common sense to decide "what is just and fair.""

I hope when defense remind jurors of what KJ testified that she doesn't like to hear bad news, and she didn't know MJ entered in rehab because she didn't watch MJ's announcement from telly, and how she sued AEG before CM trial was over and didn't want any restitution from her son's killer, and based on what is just and fair, jury should award her $1 (if AEG loses).
 
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Big Apple2, there is not one testimony suggesting Michael was stressed due to his non-commitment to the All Good Entertainment venture. Not one. It has only been discussed in this subforum, not once in the courtroom.
 
MJ couldn't 'afford' to have a potential hospital admission before having his final insurance medical.. he probably wouldn't have got insurance.

In my opinion, a person's HEALTH trumps all of the above.

In my further opinion, Michael didn't want to go to the emergency room, because he didn't want anybody to know what Murray was doing to him at night in his bedroom.
 
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