Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Soundmind]

Did Grace say she was aware of Michael's Propofol use?

To my knowledge, she never participated in a video deposition and appears to be in hiding now. So where did that information come from - I'm just curious.

ETA - On a personal tip, I can't see Michael Jackson, or anyone else for that matter, going around BRAGGING to folks that in order to deal with their sleep issues they are "put under" by using Propofol, which is supposed to only be used in a hospital setting.

In my opinion, the words "ON A NEED TO KNOW BASIS" seems to be the direction in which this information was being shared.

Debbie testified to that, the jurors did hear it from Debbie that when the German doctors used propofol she and Grace were there . She said they took turn watching him .

 

[Soundmind]

From Dr. Shafer

MJJC: Can a person become dependent or addicted to propofol? If yes what kind of dependency is it physical or psychological?

Dr. Steve Shafer: There is not much data about this, because propofol must be given intravenously, and it really burns, which discourages abuse. However, there have been a number of deaths of anesthesiologists and other health care personal from propofol abuse. Based on this, I am reasonably confident that it is addictive.


I think the reason people used to say "Propofol is not addictive" was due to normally an average person is given it for a short amount of time in a hospital setting and they don't have access to it regularly out of the hospital. That also means there won't be much data about it. The only data comes from health professionals who had access to propofol and abused it and even had some deaths. So for example a nurse injecting Propofol repeatedly to herself seems to show that it can be addictive - only if you have access to it and use it regularly.

Medical professionals inject it repeatedly for 100 times a day to relive the euphoria when the injection effect wears out , that's addiction. None of them used to be put into an induced coma for hours to sleep.

 

[jaydom7]

Both Debbie and Grace should've stopped this madness years ago.. MJ is dead, it's a little too late for them to be saying something now. Debbie should've reported those doctors including Klein and Hoefflin back in the 1980's or early 1990's when she could see with her own eyes that MJ was not getting better but worse with them.

 

[Big Apple2]

Debbie testified to that, the jurors did hear it from Debbie that when the German doctors used propofol she and Grace were there . She said they took turn watching him .

REALLY! Yikes I missed that.

So you mean to tell me that when the German doctors were "putting Michael down" for 2 days (I believe it was for only 2 days), Debbie and Grace were in the room with the German doctors, the purpose being that they would take turns watching Michael.

Is that how the story goes?

ETA - I do remember Debbie talking about being in the room, because she wanted to make sure Michael would wake up. I guess at that point, she was not only a wife, but she was also considered a "medical professional."

 

[Big Apple2]

Both Debbie and Grace should've stopped this madness years ago.. MJ is dead, it's a little too late for them to be saying something now. Debbie should've reported those doctors including Klein and Hoefflin back in the 1980's or early 1990's when she could see with her own eyes that MJ was not getting better but worse with them.

I agree.

Although I'm not sure how they would have handled the situation, without Michael getting mad at their objections and possibly kicking them to the curb.

My thing is that using Propofol to help concur a sleep issue is just so out there. I just think that collectively, they should have or could have come up with something. I just think that Michael kicking them to the curb was a BIGGER issue for those involved.

So, in my opinion, they ALL played a part in Michael's death.

 

[LastTear]

From Debbies testimony, it's not 100% clear on Grace

Putnam: Did security, nanny see him being put under? Rowe: No, I'm not going to let anyone in when he's sleeping. That's rude. She said her and Grace had been in the room while MJ slept.

Was Grace not the Nanny at this stage?

 

[Big Apple2]

From Debbies testimony, it's not 100% clear on Grace

Thanks LastTear.

I'm guessing that Grace would like it to REMAIN "not 100% clear," that's why her little nanny behind is presently in hiding.

 

[LastTear]

^^^^ I would really like to know why she feels it's necessary to hide.

 

[Big Apple2]

^^^^ I would really like to know why she feels it's necessary to hide.

Of course, not knowing for sure, i.e. "no facts to back up my opinion."

I would have to say that homegirl is in hiding because whatever she has to add to this saga will NOT help Mother's case, same goes for the M.I.A. - Rebbie Jackson-Brown.

I mean, if they had something to say that helped Mother's case, they would BOTH be at that courthouse with bells on.

Just my opinion, nothing more.

 

[LastTear]

Your opinion certainly makes sense. Do we know if they both gave depositions??????

 

[Big Apple2]

Your opinion certainly makes sense. Do we know if they both gave depositions

If I'm not mistaken, Rebbie most likely did complete her deposition.

Grace, on the other hand, got out of DODGE, before any arrangements were ever made. I think that's how the story goes.

If not correct, I'm sure somebody will correct me. LOL!

 

[Tygger]

It wouldn't be discussed before as it is part of the defence in that Michaels propofol use was secretive, none of the non medical witnesses brought from either side have testified that they knew of Michaels use of propofol, if they didn't know then he chose not to share it with them, therefore he kept it a secret.

I disagree. Rowe was his wife and was never a nurse. AEG has not shown Michael has kept any addiction a secret as per their own witnesses and their cross of the plaintiffs witnesses.

I would also like Valin to explain not only how Michael had his own propofol stash (as Michael's killer referred to it) but, how a non-medical individual can get access to it. Not one testimony has shown Michael receiving any substance from anyone other than the doctors who prescribed it to him.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger *Drum roll* I agree about Van Valin.

However, I disagree re secrecy. Debbie testified that before she became his wife she took care of some of his medical needs, from the end of Bad tour through to when they got married. No one else has testified that they knew about propofol.

 

[Big Apple2]

I would also like Valin to explain not only how Michael had his own propofol stash (as Michael's killer referred to it) but, how a non-medical individual can get access to it. Not one testimony has shown Michael receiving any substance from anyone other than the doctors who prescribed it to him.

It will be very interesting to hear what Dr. Van Valin has to say about the "box of propofol."

And if his story is true, I would say that Michael got the "box of propofol" from a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL who had access to a prescription pad.

Just one more, in a long line of medical professionals who would do ANYTHING in order for them to be able to say "Michael Jackson is a personal friend of mine."

 

[Tygger]

@Tygger *Drum roll* I agree about Van Valin.

However, I disagree re secrecy. Debbie testified that before she became his wife she took care of some of his medical needs, from the end of Bad tour through to when they got married. No one else has testified that they knew about propofol.

Last Tear, how do you determine which individual not knowing about propofol or any other substance qualifies Michael's addiction as a secret? AEG has not given any directions to that distinction.

The world was told about Michael's addiction to painkillers by Michael. Medical professionals and his ex-wife knew about propofol. The world did not know about Michael using propofol as a sleep aid. AEG is not able to substantiate Michael as a propofol addict. Earley's own testimony shows several years between Michael's propofol usage until 2009 when he could not sleep due to the stress he felt preparing for TII.

 

[Big Apple2]

What sort of medicine does Dr. Van Valin practice?

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger, I have determined it by the testimonies given, not one lay person (so far) other than Debbie has testified that they knew about propofol. We have heard from Randy and Katherine talking about interventions, however the problem was denied by Michael.

 

[LastTear]

What sort of medicine does Dr. Van Valin practice?

I think I'm right in saying he is a GP, a general practitioner - family doctor.

 

[Tygger]

@Tygger, I have determined it by the testimonies given, not one lay person (so far) other than Debbie has testified that they knew about propofol. We have heard from Randy and Katherine talking about interventions, however the problem was denied by Michael.

Please help me understand. Rowe and Grace are non-medical professionals who knew. Do more or less than two non-medical professionals knowing show Michael was a secretive propofol addict? Earley is AEG's witness and has already testified Michael was most likely not a propofol addict. This leaves Michael to be secretive about his painkiller addiction however, he admitted that to the world and as you have stated his family knew enough to stage several interventions.

Where is the secret? Am I to believe Michael was a secretive addict only because AEG has chosen this theory as their defense despite not being able to show it effectively?

 

[Bonnie Blue]

It wouldn't be discussed before as it is part of the defence in that Michaels propofol use was secretive, none of the non medical witnesses brought from either side have testified that they knew of Michaels use of propofol, if they didn't know then he chose not to share it with them, therefore he kept it a secret.

I agree with big apple that mj using propofol seemed to have been told to people on a 'need to know' basis. Propofol is private, it';s done in the privacy of his own bedroom, it was the only solution he felt he had to deal with his chronic insomnia so why the need to tell people about it - agree with tygger, not sure why that turns it into a 'deep, dark secret' as aeg characterise it as. It's not heroin, it's not an illegal, controlled substance. MJ was told it was safe if he was monitored, he seemed to be open in asking docs/nurses for it or if they knew of anyone who could help administer it. I'm not really sure mj wd have the same omg reaction as everybody else to the fact he needed anesthesia to sleep, his life and fame and the pressures and isolation that entailed would mean he wouldn't see things the way we do.

This 'secrecy' of propofol use is something aeg is harping on about, but i don't see the plaintiff side saying aeg knew about propofol so i don't know why this subject is so vital. I just see it as aeg emphasising propofol use, and making out that this is what killed mj, when it was the spectacularly gross negligence of murray in administering the prop and benzos that killed mj.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger No not because AEG have chosen this defence but by the fact that it wasn't common knowledge, I don't know if Michael deliberately made it that way or not, it would of course be up to him who he shared personal info with.

I have already answered regarding Debbie and how she took care of various medical needs of Michael from end on Bad tour until they married.

The family had concerns but Michael denied it, therefore he was not open (non-secretive).

Grace has not testified, she may have known idk.

Tell me, other than Debbie, who else (non medical) knew about propofol?

From Jacksons opening statements

"It was widely publicized Michael was dependent on pain killers," Panish said, adding that AEG Live should have been aware of the reports. (Reuters)

Jackson’s attorney Panish said MJ’s family and friends knew about MJ’s addiction problems and AEG is the only entity that claims to not know it (AP).


Panish detailed MJ’s prescription drug abuse history, saying the singer regularly used demerol and propofol, and that "people who knew him believed he had a problem with prescription medication." (ABC)


“Michael Jackson’s family suspected he had a problem with prescription medication,” Panish conceded. (CNS)

The Plantiffs are accusing AEG of knowing hence they have to prove that not everyone knew, I must admit that I would be happier if AEG had chosen the word private instead of secretive.

 

[jamba]

"Asked about the Physician Desk Reference (PDR) Earley checked and propofol was not in the book. Can't get drug with prescription."

How does this impact Lee's statement that she took the PDR book to MJ and read him what it said about propofol? Or is it listed under Diprivan (not propofol)?? I am confused.

 

[Petrarose]

If Michael gave him a box of prof, who bought that for Michael? Michael would not be able to purchase this on his own, so there again a doctor is the culprit. So we will hear from Shimelman after all? Let's see how Panish handles that. I wish Putnam would end with the never ending list of addiction experts. How many has he put on so far?

 

[Tygger]

Last Tear, I agree with Bonnie Blue. What killed Michael was the negligent administration of propofol.

AEG has not established Michael was a propofol addict and they will not be able to so how can one say Michael was secretive about an addiction he did not have?

Michael used it as a sleep aid and two non-medical people knew. As it can only be administered by another it is logical that mostly medical professionals knew as Michael directly requested it from them. This further supports Michael believed only a medical professional could administer it and someone had to monitor him to be safe.

The plaintiffs have shown we cannot correctly connect Michael using propofol as a sleep aid - as he was not addicted to it - to his painkiller addiction that the world knew about including AEG. The plaintiffs have effectively used their cross of AEG witnesses to debunk AEG's theory that Michael was a secretive addict.

AEG should have spent their time showing that Michael hired the doctor instead of the secretive addict defense because it has failed in my view. However, it is clear that they are not able to because Michael most likely did not hire the doctor.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger And I agree with both of you regarding the cause of Michaels death.

I asked you who has testified (non medical) other than Debbie who is borderline medical, that they knew Michael used propofol? Plus who was the other non medical person you mention?

I'm confused, does Michael have to be addicted to something to use it as a sleep aid?

Most the drug addiction testimony is based on other drugs other than propofol. The only reason the word addict has been connected to propofol was the blog Early wrote.

 

[ivy]

so why the need to tell people about it - agree with tygger, not sure why that turns it into a 'deep, dark secret' as aeg characterise it as.

This 'secrecy' of propofol use is something aeg is harping on about, but i don't see the plaintiff side saying aeg knew about propofol so i don't know why this subject is so vital.

the negligent hiring jury instructions requires the party to "know or should have known" the risk and ignore it. Such as if you hire a person with a history of violence knowingly you are exposing every future costumer to the risk of violence.

so who knew what and what AEG knew or should have known becomes extremely relevant in proving a negligent hiring claim, it's not about it being a dark bad secret.

Jacksons claim Michael's addiction issues - regardless of whether it was Demerol or Propofol or whatever - was known so this should have put AEG on alert and make sure that they properly check Murray so he wouldn't provide drugs to Michael.

AEG argues that Propofol and Demerol are different things, almost no one knew about Propofol, Michael's issues with other drugs (after 1993) wasn't that common knowledge either. So they are arguing that they did not and could not know Michael's continuing issues with Demerol and his use of Propofol and therefore they could not be on alert and therefore there cannot be negligent hiring.

This is not about what / why Michael died, it's all about if AEG could have known it, could they foresee it.

 

[Petrarose]

At least Earley is honest in these two areas below:
-Earley said he did believe that Michael Jackson’s life expectancy was reduced, but he couldn’t estimate by how much.
-Earley said he couldn’t offer an opinion on whether Jackson was addicted to propofol, but he saw signs of abuse of the anesthetic.

I am glad someone finally said what we said a month ago:
-“Unfortunately because of his pain related problems, he was re-exposed to the drugs over and over again,” Earley said.

It seems the judge finally woke up.
- Several of Boyle’s questions and comments were stricken by the judge as argumentative throughout his 45-minutes of questioning.

Boyle is focusing on conflict of interest to cripple that study, which is good, but I wish he would do what Walgren did and get a statistician/dr or researcher to help him pick holes in that study. That is the best way for the jury to see how weak your conclusions are. We all remember how White’s study got a beating on the stand. Panish paid over a million to experts already, so he could spend some money to get a scholar to walk him through the sample of that study.

It is so strange, but I was wondering if Earley was an addict, and then I see he admitted he was.

I can't believe that the Plaintiffs did that brief about misconduct. When you are losing a case, you seem to get quite petty.

 

[Petrarose]

Ivy do you remember that earlier in the trial, there was the idea of "once an addict always an addict." Now we have Earley saying he was an addict.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

so who knew what and what AEG knew or should have known becomes extremely relevant in proving a negligent hiring claim, it's not about it being a dark bad secret.

?My post was pointing out why aeg and posters on here were so intent on making out mj's use of prop was so secretive when the other side hasn't claimed that aeg knew about mj's propofol use - it's not what they are arguing. And as for mj's drug issues not being a dark bad secret, that is exactly how aeg characterised it in their opening statement.

Jacksons claim Michael's addiction issues - regardless of whether it was Demerol or Propofol or whatever - was known so this should have put AEG on alert and make sure that they properly check Murray so he wouldn't provide drugs to Michael.

The jacksons certainly aren't claiming mj was addicted to propofol! And as i've said before, my post was about why aeg, and posters on here, are denying aeg knew about prop as mj kept it really 'secret', when the other side hasn't even claimed that aeg knew about prop - that's all my post was about. I think it was pretty clear from my original post i was talking about prop and not prescription drug addiction.

This is not about what / why Michael died, it's all about if AEG could have known it, could they foresee it.

I don't understand this statement. Aeg could have known/foreseen what? Mj's death? Then why mj died is relevant. That he died by murray's gross negligence and incompetence is obviously something aeg wd rather gloss over, but it doesn't mean it can be ignored - it goes to why the hiring was negligent. The plaintiffs argue that the incompetence of murray should have been evident to aeg.

 

[Big Apple2]

It seems the judge finally woke up.
- Several of Boyle’s questions and comments were stricken by the judge as argumentative throughout his 45-minutes of questioning.

In my opinion, that supposed "box of propofol" has thrown Mr. Boyle off his game.

In my further opinion, ALL of those video depositions that are scheduled for airing on Friday will be what the jury remembers going into the weekend, not Mr. Boyle TRYING to cripple Mr. Earley's study.

Just a little opinion coming from New York City, courtesy of ME!