Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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yes at last, an AEG witness blames Murray. Good to hear. I wish he would not blame Michael as well.

Feel the same way--it's about time Murray was even mentioned in this trial. 100% of the blame rests on him and him alone. imo

And, as far as blaming Michael is concerned, I don't see why any witness or anyone else would go there. (Then, again, I don't see why anyone would blame AEG, either) Michael used propofol because some doctor at one time (ahem..Klein) told him this might be a good solution for his insomnia. That ANY doctor would ignore what was BEST for him and go ahead and administer it to him for insomnia is the doctor's fault--NOT Michael's fault. Michael paid the ultimate price. When will any of these doctors pay a price?
 
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I am not a "conspiracy theorist," in general. I am NOT. But, I also feel that we owe it to Michael to support him for the long-haul, and for his legacy, as our bottom-line. I simply cannot believe that a corporation as large as AEG could NOT have known the challenges that Michael faced. I cannot believe, that given the money involved, and the risk, that they are naive, and didn't do their background research--about Michael and his health challenges, and about Murray. Any corporation that takes a financial risk, would do the same. There is what is allowed to come out in court and there is the reality.

Was AEG "responsible," morally and ethically? Yes, I think that they were, and they had plenty of resources at their disposal. Are they "responsible" under the law? I have no idea. . . and the court will decide. The law is much more limited than morality or ethics, but that does not change the reality, that may come out over time. AEG was PUSHING Michael, and he did try, but may not have been capable, physically, or emotionally. I am SO sorry. . . he did deserve so much better. . . .
 
I am not a "conspiracy theorist," in general. I am NOT. But, I also feel that we owe it to Michael to support him for the long-haul, and for his legacy, as our bottom-line. I simply cannot believe that a corporation as large as AEG could NOT have known the challenges that Michael faced. I cannot believe, that given the money involved, and the risk, that they are naive, and didn't do their background research--about Michael and his health challenges, and about Murray. Any corporation that takes a financial risk, would do the same. There is what is allowed to come out in court and there is the reality.

Was AEG "responsible," morally and ethically? Yes, I think that they were, and they had plenty of resources at their disposal. Are they "responsible" under the law? I have no idea. . . and the court will decide. The law is much more limited than morality or ethics, but that does not change the reality, that may come out over time. AEG was PUSHING Michael, and he did try, but may not have been capable, physically, or emotionally. I am SO sorry. . . he did deserve so much better. . . .

I respect your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Michael would be embarrassed by this lawsuit his family brought against AEG. So, thinking about this lawsuit as something that defends or protects Michael's legacy seems misplaced and naive. If there's any damage to his legacy, it's because Michael's family created an opportunity in court for their beloved son and brother to be dragged through the mud with details of his private life and medical issues exposed for all to see. I somehow think Michael would not be okay with that or having his children deposed and then asked to testify. I doubt he had this is mind for his children when he named his mother as their guardian, but that's another thread entirely. I think the best we can do for Michael's legacy is hope for the conclusion of this awful trial--the sooner, the better.

I think it's widely debatable whether or not AEG was responsible and we'll soon learn what the jury thinks--the only opinion that matters. I think both Michael and his doctor were responsible for Michael's health. It makes no sense to me that a corporation can be held liable when a performer hires a doctor to administer a surgical anesthesia without their knowledge. It's unfair. And, I'll say it again re/AEG allegedly "pushing" Michael--if Michael felt he was not capable "physically or emotionally" to do TII, he would have quit, but he did not. Michael was a very savvy businessman who'd been in the industry for 4 decades & knew what a contractual agreement meant with AEG or any other concert promoter. To expect AEG (or any corporate entity) to be Michael's parent or friend and act as a "big brother" telling Michael what was best for him and his health care is a violation of our civil liberties in the US. It's offensive and insulting. If AEG loses, this will go to appeals and may likely get overturned by a higher court. At the very least, I don't think it will be over for many years to come.

And, Michael did deserve so much better--from CONRAD MURRAY and his own family.
 
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^^Autumn usually I agree with 99.9% of everything you say, but this time it does not seem so. I don't thing AEG was responsible morally and ethically for Michel's death, although I feel the staff have horrible personalities and manners. The only how I will find them responsible under the law is if the law states there was an oral contract between Muarry and AEG & that AEG hired Muarry. I also see this as a technicality, and I am prejudiced about such cases.

I don't see where AEG was pushing Michael as you say. Unless you mean about them wanting him to rehearse? I see a grown man who made a contract to do a residency, at a time when he was eager, lucid, engaged, excited, full of life & vigor. What happened afterwards was due to him trying to deal with a condition he knew existed years and years ago. However, he made that decision to take on the residency even though he had knowledge of the effects of his insomnia. I can't blame AEG for that.

I agree that Michael did try. However, I disagree that he was not capable physically or emotionally. At the time of contract he was strong according to witnesses and his emotions were OK. It was once he began to take the drugs for sleeping he lost weight and showed the effects of Muarry's cocktail. I still can't blame AEG for that. Michael had a choice. He could have forced AEG to have concerts in the early afternoon, or times when he usually feels his freshest. There is no law that concerts have to be at 7 or 9pm. As soon as he decided he would perform, he could have immediately found a hoard of specialists to work out some plan for sleeping. He did not, but went with prof. Even the nurse told him 6 hours sleep is good for a man of his activity, but he did not agree.

I don't think AEG researched Michel either. I doubt AEG research their artists like the stones and others who are known to use drugs. AEG knew about rumors with drugs but did not see any signs of it during their talks with Michael. If they had said they would not have a partnership with him, Michael would still engage in some from of mini tour/performance to make money for his children and to pay his bills.

I feel the person who is responsible for Michael's death is already in jail.
 
I do understand those opinions but I also know how corporations work, and so I respectfully agree to disagree. In the early nineties, Miichael released an audio-tape revealing that he had substance abuse problems. There were other indications, since then. The goal of a corporation is to make money. I have no idea, really, what they did or did not know. That is for a jury to decide. My allegiance will be, and always will be, for Michael, and I do think that this will take a LONG time to settle out, regardless of what a jury may decide.
 
I do understand those opinions but I also know how corporations work, and so I respectfully agree to disagree. In the early nineties, Miichael released an audio-tape revealing that he had substance abuse problems. There were other indications, since then. The goal of a corporation is to make money. I have no idea, really, what they did or did not know. That is for a jury to decide. My allegiance will be, and always will be, for Michael, and I do think that this will take a LONG time to settle out, regardless of what a jury may decide.

Yeah I agree with you here. I also think both Michael's and AEG's goal was the same in that they wanted to make money. Yes Michael is the most important person here.

What is TMez saying up there ^^. Basically if he is not talking about the 05 trial, I tend to not listen to his talks.
 
Here's a few take aways from Ashtanga's video above:

--Tom Mesereau: "Randy is very bright and a good friend of mine."
I think Tom is pro-family and pro-Randy. Randy is the one who reached out to Tom to represent Michael in the 2005 trial, so naturally he's loyal. I doubt Tom knows all the back stories about Randy--he stays at the 8,000 foot level.

--Tom says there is sufficient evidence that AEG agreed to take on the risk of hiring/supervising Murray. He's a brilliant lawyer and he's arguing the plaintiff's case--he is the one who recommended Brian Panish to the Jacksons. So, he's obviously invested in this case.

--The interviewers keep characterizing Michael as a "drug abuser" who was taking all kinds of drugs secretly and that he had a "history of drug abuse." Also said "Michael was responsible for his own death."

The rest of the video was about the 2005 trial.
 
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^^^Tom Mesereau: "Randy is very bright and a good friend of mine."

I think Tom is pro-family and pro-Randy. Randy is the one who reached out to Tom to represent Michael in the 2005 trial, so naturally he's loyal. I doubt Tom knows all the back stories about Randy--he stays at the 8,000 foot level.

How could Randy be bright? I know he is a friend of TMez, but the bright part have me confused, which is why I do not listen to TMez unless he is talking about 05. He allows his personal connection to Randy to cloud his thinking. If he cannot see how Randy messed up his own case then I am sorry. Not to mention, he is showing again that Randy is connected to this case.
 
How could Randy be bright? I know he is a friend of TMez, but the bright part have me confused, which is why I do not listen to TMez unless he is talking about 05. He allows his personal connection to Randy to cloud his thinking. If he cannot see how Randy messed up his own case then I am sorry. Not to mention, he is showing again that Randy is connected to this case.

This interview was taped the day before Debbie Rowe testified, so it's current and he used the present tense when talking about Randy. I don't get it, either.

I have the utmost respect for Tom because of all he did for Michael and his continued advocacy for Michael, but I'm bewildered at his willingness to back Randy as he's doing. He allows personal loyalty in this instance to influence his judgment. And, you're right--according to this interview, it was Randy who called Tom about filing a lawsuit against AEG not long after Michael died, although Tom would not say exactly when (like the good lawyer he is). He met with both Randy and Mrs. Jackson about the lawsuit, he said.
 
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I find the debt conversation confusing.

The plaintiffs have always maintained that the doctor was compromised because he was in debt, needed monies desperately, and was willing to do an unethical act - negligently administering an anesthetic in a home setting that he was unqualified to do – to receive monies.

Without the background check, it was an ignored red flag for the doctor to ask for $5M for less than a year’s work and eventually settle for $150K/month; there is no logical sense there. A doctor making $1M/month with two genuine offices and two faux offices would most likely not request $5M. Phillips testified the $5M request was not as alarming to him as the $150K/month. Jorrie could not locate the two faux offices via Google and continued to draft the contract.

A background check would have revealed the TYPE of debt the doctor had. One type was non-payment of rent on the two genuine offices that were supposedly generating $1M/month (I believe the rental fee on the two faux offices was complimentary). This unknown fact could have saved Michael’s life if AEG did not allegedly hire the doctor that was unqualified to do what he was doing without a background check (negligent hiring). If AEG actually completed one, non-payment of rent on the two genuine offices would have deemed the doctor suspicious. The fact that doctor had three social security numbers was ENOUGH to stall any and all negotiations as that is illegal and can result in a federal offense.

The defense has spun the plaintiffs’ theory to mean everyone in debt is under suspicion which is utterly ridiculous and was not what the plaintiffs stated. The plaintiffs’ have described the doctor, specifically and individually this way and they are correct. The defense broadened the theory for their benefit and some subscribe to it even though the plaintiffs have never said that as a general statement.

There is no comparison between Michael’s debt and the doctor’s debt. Michael could simply sell his half of the catalog where the doctor had no asset that would cover his total debt. It seems credible that there is a comparison only because the defense made this ridiculous generalization..

Murray gave his price and MJ took it despite the fact that AEG thought he could get better for far less but MJ wanted him at all costs and there is nothing AEG could do.

Passy001, only adults are employed by AEG and those adults could have paid the doctor through an advance as they paid Klein instead of an employment contract which exposed them to this type of liability.

it's like saying MJ should not find work because he was twice accused of child molestation and had suffocating debts to the extent that he couldn't even pay utility bills for his own mother. This smacks of absolute prejudice and discrimination. and there is no law in the UNITED STATES that would ever allow anything like this. if an employer refuses to hire a competent worker/contractor due to its inability to pay debts, the employer will face a massive lawsuit.

Passy001, you summarized AEG’s defense against damages! The highest paid witness, Briggs, testified that because Michael was in debt, was accused of heinous crimes, and was a secretive addict; his future income would be zero because he would be seen as unattractive to work with.

I shivered when Jackson HR expert said she stopped the background check on Murray when she found his debts. She basically said if you have debts nothing else matters you are automatically considered to be not suitable for hire.

also the AEG expected Michael to show up to rehearsals might backfire when presented to regular people. Most of them would have 9 to 5 jobs which expect them to show up to work and most people will be fired after a few unexplained absences. I don't think such people would see anything wrong with AEG advancing Michael millions and then expecting him to show up.

Ivy, no, it was the type of debt that was an issue and she did not basically say anyone with debt is not suitable for hire. She specifically spoke only about the doctor; there were no generalizations.

Also, no, Michael did not have to show up to one rehearsal if he did not want to; it was not a contractual obligation. Your example of a '9 to 5' has a contractual obligation where the employee appears at the designated workplace, unless of course, the job is virtual. AEG wanted Michael at rehearsal and because he did appear at rehearsal (however, not as often as AEG wanted), we have the TII film.
 
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This interview was taped the day before Debbie Rowe testified, so it's current and he used the present tense when talking about Randy. I don't get it, either.

I have the utmost respect for Tom because of all he did for Michael and his continued advocacy for Michael, but I'm bewildered at his willingness to back Randy as he's doing. He allows personal loyalty in this instance to influence his judgment. And, you're right--according to this interview, it was Randy who called Tom about filing a lawsuit against AEG not long after Michael died, although Tom would not say exactly when (like the good lawyer he is). He met with both Randy and Mrs. Jackson about the lawsuit, he said.

There is a financial motivation behind his support to Randy , he was the one who referred them to Panish so he would get a significant cut if they make any money out of this lawsuit .

We should not expect him to stay neutral , he is a party in this lawsuit .
 
You need to look to what he previously testified during direct as well. Murray has ordered Propofol in April 6th and reordered it in April 28th. Green testified that use of Propofol predated AEG. So he's alleging Murray was giving Propofol before the contract start date of May 1.

Jacksons are trying to debunk it. They start by asking if Murray was giving Propofol on April 12 and April 19 (the dates Michael met with Lee and Metzger), Green says yes - in his opinion based on earlier dated propofol purchases but he cannot tell exact dates as Murray did not keep records.

Jackson lawyer asks if Murray was giving Michael any Propofol why would Michael ask Metzger and Lee for it. In this instance Jackson lawyer is trying to claim that Murray wasn't giving Propofol - pre AEG - and that's why Michael was asking to other people. He's trying to claim that if Michael was getting propofol he wouldn't be asking others, it's inconsistent behavior with what Green claiming Murray was giving him Propofol. Green disagrees that it is inconsistent and he says it is consistent behavior as addicts would seek drugs - especially hard to get drugs- from multiple sources. so he's trying to say even if Murray was giving him Propofol , it would make Michael seek it from other sources as well.

I'm not sure if this help eith side but CM "worked" 6 days a week and had Sundays off. 12th and 19th were Sundays on April 2009.

I was thinking as we haven't heard exact words from Metzger and nurse, if what they meant that MJ wanted them to give propfol on those 12th and 19th when CM had day off?
 
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Tygger, short answer to your long essay. Murray being in debt does not amount to a red flag. MJ was able to find work with a $300m debt, which was growing like mushroom, tagged to its name, i don't see why Murray would be treated differently. there is nothing that suggested he was going to harm MJ especially since he had been MJ personal doctor for 3 years prior to AEG involvement.

your argument also implies that because MJ was in debt then he was bound to do something unethical because he needed the money to pay down his colossal debt. prosecutors in the 2005 criminal trial also tried to use that argument of MJ being in debt and fell flat with the jury simply because the jury could not see a relationship between MJ debts and the molestation charges he was facing. which is exactly my point. there is no relationship between Murray debt and its ability to provide medical care. being in debt does not diminish your talent. nor does it remove your obligation to your employer.

your argument also suggests that any employee who has debt is bound to do something unethical to retain his/her job. on that basis alone noone in the UNITED STATES will ever be able to find work again. not even you, assuming you have debts.

Passy001, you summarized AEG’s defense against damages! The highest paid witness, Briggs, testified that because Michael was in debt, was accused of heinous crimes, and was a secretive addict; his future income would be zero because he would be seen as unattractive to work with.
That is not entirely false. MJ is in the entertainment industry where image is everything. that means your ability to generate money is directly tied to your image. with MJ being constantly linked to controversies, it had a very damaging impact on his ability to generate income and attract sponsorships and investors. MJ money making capabilities were seriously impaired by the 1993 allegations. and that was the beginning of his downfall. everything went south from there. MJ never managed to recover even at the time of his death. his image was very low.
 
Tygger, short answer to your long essay. Murray being in debt does not amount to a red flag. MJ was able to find work with a $300m debt, which was growing like mushroom, tagged to its name, i don't see why Murray would be treated differently. there is nothing that suggested he was going to harm MJ especially since he had been MJ personal doctor for 3 years prior to AEG involvement.

your argument also implies that because MJ was in debt then he was bound to do something unethical because he needed the money to pay down his colossal debt. prosecutors in the 2005 criminal trial also tried to use that argument of MJ being in debt and fell flat with the jury simply because the jury could not see a relationship between MJ debts and the molestation charges he was facing. which is exactly my point. there is no relationship between Murray debt and its ability to provide medical care. being in debt does not diminish your talent. nor does it remove your obligation to your employer.

your argument also suggests that any employee who has debt is bound to do something unethical to retain his/her job. on that basis alone noone in the UNITED STATES will ever be able to find work again. not even you, assuming you have debts.


That is not entirely false. MJ is in the entertainment industry where image is everything. that means your ability to generate money is directly tied to your image. with MJ being constantly linked to controversies, it had a very damaging impact on his ability to generate income and attract sponsorships and investors. MJ money making capabilities were seriously impaired by the 1993 allegations. and that was the beginning of his downfall. everything went south from there. MJ never managed to recover even at the time of his death. his image was very low.

Having 2 fake offices is a red flag & 3 social security numbers is too. I would agree his being in debt is not necessarily one however.

As far as his image - he was still a big money maker after 93. His sold out concerts, world tours, record sales were still high.
TII sold out in record time, the only market that could possibly have been an issue might be US but I think he would have sold out here also in record time. Look at the reaction at his death, so poor argument. aeg did not invest 30 million for nothing. Randy Phillips was incredibly excited about Michael's comeback.
 
I respect your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Michael would be embarrassed by this lawsuit his family brought against AEG. So, thinking about this lawsuit as something that defends or protects Michael's legacy seems misplaced and naive. If there's any damage to his legacy, it's because Michael's family created an opportunity in court for their beloved son and brother to be dragged through the mud with details of his private life and medical issues exposed for all to see. I somehow think Michael would not be okay with that or having his children deposed and then asked to testify. I doubt he had this is mind for his children when he named his mother as their guardian, but that's another thread entirely. I think the best we can do for Michael's legacy is hope for the conclusion of this awful trial--the sooner, the better.

I think it's widely debatable whether or not AEG wask responsible and we'll soon learn what the jury thinks--the only opinion that matters. I think both Michael and his doctor were responsible for Michael's health. It makes no sense to me that a corporation can be held liable when a performer hires a doctor to administer a surgical anesthesia without their knowledge. It's unfair. And, I'll say it again re/AEG allegedly "pushing" Michael--if Michael felt he was not capable "physically or emotionally" to do TII, he would have quit, but he did not. Michael was a very savvy businessman who'd been in the industry for 4 decades & knew what a contractual agreement meant with AEG or any other concert promoter. To expect AEG (or any corporate entity) to be Michael's parent or friend and act as a "big brother" telling Michael what was best for him and his health care is a violation of our civil liberties in thke US. It's offensive and insulting. If AEG loses, this will go to appeals and may likely get overturned by a higher court. At the very least, I don't think it will be over for many years to come.

And, Michael did deserve so much better--from CONRAD MURRAY and his own family.

You are so right. Thank you.
 
This interview was taped the day before Debbie Rowe testified, so it's current and he used the present tense when talking about Randy. I don't get it, either.

I have the utmost respect for Tom because of all he did for Michael and his continued advocacy for Michael, but I'm bewildered at his willingness to back Randy as he's doing. He allows personal loyalty in this instance to influence his judgment. And, you're right--according to this interview, it was Randy who called Tom about filing a lawsuit against AEG not long after Michael died, although Tom would not say exactly when (like the good lawyer he is). He met with both Randy and Mrs. Jackson about the lawsuit, he said.

I don't know what is going on with TMezz. First of all, he is off the wall when he says Randy is bright! Who in their right mind would say Randy is bright? Maybe he means Randy is bright scheaming and conniving way, after all he nearly "released" MJ from his burden (sarcasm) of ATV catalogue.
Secondly KJ testified it was her and her only who decided to proceed with this lawsuit and she did not talk about it to her cubs. TMEzz is saying that she did. How that is going to come up when AEG calls KJ to stand, we'll see what she has to say.
I find it odd that TMezz is supposed to be this brilliant lawyer, but he goes on record saying he talked with Randy and KJ about lawsuit, odd thing to do from brilliant lawyers or mistake?
 
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Have we actually established whether AEG could have carried out the same check on Murray as law enforcement could?

But regardless, I don't hold much store by the debt issues, of course he was following the money but Michael was worth more alive so why treat your golden egg with such little care? But let's be honest any other treatment Michael had with propofol was about the money, probably some of Michaels other medical treatments were also about the money.

Tygger Passy001, only adults are employed by AEG and those adults could have paid the doctor through an advance as they paid Klein instead of an employment contract which exposed them to this type of liability.

Not really, Murray was going to be travelling with them, and closing down practices, he would have needed some form of contract. Very different than simply seeing a doctor at their offices.
 
Soundmind;3888142 said:
He hired Murray still he talked to Adams , wanted him to join , talked to Metzeger , talked to Lee , obviously he believed Murray needed help .However , Murray thought he could keep all the money . I still dont believe he was sedating him with propofol for hours, his respiratory system was not in the best shape he would not have survived that long . once he started he order huge amounts of lorazepam , midazolam and flumazenil . His intentions were clear from the very beginning .Even the sleep specialist who testified during Murray's trial did say he did not understand Murray's mixture of drugs . If you plan to sedate someone for hours with propofol you don't need 20 mg of lorazepam .

I don't know where did he put all that propofol (15,220ml) if he did use it?
He ordered 15,500ml and only 280ml recovered.
Are you saying his intention was to kill MJ intentionally or what are you saying?


Bonnie Blue;3888453 said:
Randy phillips denied knowing about mj's 1993 drug issues. Although i imagine even if mj held press confs everytime he overdid the demoral and had a 'mj goes to rehab' primetime reality show, randy wd still act clueless.

To be fair:
Putnam asked Mrs. Jackson if she was aware of her son’s statement at the end of the “Dangerous” tour indicating a prescription drug problem. She said she hadn’t heard about it or seen it before it was played in court. She said she didn’t watch much television. Putnam: “Mrs. Jackson on Friday, you mentioned that you shut your ears to bad things. Do you remember saying that?” “I probably said it, but I don’t remember saying it,” Mrs. Jackson said, adding, “I don’t like to hear bad news.” Putnam asked if Mrs. Jackson shut out hearing bad news about her son ending the Dangerous tour. She said she didn't remember how it ended. (AP)
 
I don't know where did he put all that propofol (15,220ml) if he did use it?
He ordered 15,500ml and only 280ml recovered.
Are you saying his intention was to kill MJ intentionally or what are you saying?

I know this is directed at Soundmind, but i do have some suspicions about Murray's intentions. His use of benzos seemed really really excessive, insane, unless he was stockpiling for London. He was buying a lot of antidotes to benzos that don't work on propofol, and he used some on the 25th, which means he did use benzos. What was found at autopsy showed high levels of benzos. They were all injectables or injected, which makes them more powerful and addictive.

Those weird symptoms could be, among other things, withdrawal from benzos (Murray did start to prescribe valium on june 20th, Michael did take some, it's a benzo and one of its use is to ease withdrawal symptoms, and Michael was better aftr that).

We can only speculate because we don't know what Murray was doing exactly, but I always thought of 2 things :

- getting him addicted to benzos (Murray as a doctor knows what those drugs are), making insomnia worse, Michael needed a doctor to sleep.
- he thought that propofol was too dangerous, was too much monitoring work, and used benzos instead of propofol every now and then, or on a regular basis.

Benzos would have given him real sleep, so it wouldn't work with the lack of sleep explanation, that was based on propofol most of the time.

I personnally never thought Murray intentionally killed him, he wouldn't kill his source of income, and there's nothing that shows he had that intention. I think he got over confident and thought he could fool people and not get caught. And, just in case, he had that recording.
 
I don't know where did he put all that propofol (15,220ml) if he did use it?
He ordered 15,500ml and only 280ml recovered.
Are you saying his intention was to kill MJ intentionally or what are you saying?

He was never going to sedate him using propofol, that's my belief , his plan was to sedate him using benzos, propofol was only used to induce sleep , a second shot immediately before MJ woke up to create the sensations associated with awaking from propofol . My believe he was fooling MJ , he intended to fool him from day one . I don't believe Murray was that ridiculously stupid doctor to believe he could have given a drip for 8 hours without any kind of monitoring for months.My belief he knew he was not qualified to do it , he knew he was never going to be able to do it but needed the money . Got MJ to agree to hire him to give it. He was never MJ's first choice to get propofol The fact that MJ asked Adams alone demonstrate that MJ thought Murray was not qualified , even after Murray turned Adams down ( we don't know whether he even told MJ, personally I don't think so) MJ was still seeking someone else . Murray was on board to support the main doctor .Murray wanted to be the main and sole doctor to get 5 millions as he initially asked for .

Why did he order the amounts he ordered ? to show MJ the bills , that he was sedating him with propofol for hours , that he was very attentive and should be compensated handsomely for his medical care. I still don't believe he gave him a drip that night , it was a fast injection that caused his heart to stop . Dr.Schffer said the level of propofol in MJ's blood was so high it's consistent with a drip, according to him if MJ was given a fast injection which stopped his breathing , it would have taken some time for his heart to stop . Due to propofol short duration of action the levels would have dropped significantly by the time he died . His explanation for the high level was death occured while he was hooked to a drip . He said he asked about the time for the heart to stop after breathing stopped no one reported an immediate death . However ,there was a case of death caused by a rapid propofol injection with even higher level than the one found in MJ, the guy was alone , have no drip , died with propofol syringe on sight . I don't know how Dr.Schaffer would have explained that . If we are to assume a drip means high levels , there was another death caused by propofol drip with a level less than the one found in MJ .The level of propofol in blood is an indication of the level of sedation NOT the actual amount of it .
 
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Mod note
Probably best to take the conspiracy and murder theories to the Murray trial forum, because all the speculations have nothing to do with this trial. Let's not derail the thread with it.
 
Debbie said doctors were taking advantage of MJ all the time , so it's not absurd to think Murray did the same . AEG started discussing MJ seeking propofol from many sources in 2009.
 
Have we actually established whether AEG could have carried out the same check on Murray as law enforcement could?

But regardless, I don't hold much store by the debt issues, of course he was following the money but Michael was worth more alive so why treat your golden egg with such little care? But let's be honest any other treatment Michael had with propofol was about the money, probably some of Michaels other medical treatments were also about the money.

That is correct. but the difference here is that with Murray MJ was not monitored at all. whereas other doctors were watching him closely with the right equipment in place. so, we could argue that MJ died due to the absolute lack of care. not really because of propofol per se because when used with the right care and diligence, it is a safe anesthesia drug after all. The proof is that it is still being used to treat patients.

what i don't understand though is the fact that some people are quick to raise Murray's debts issues as evidence of his incompetence or inability to provide the right medical care. there is simply no relationship between the two. how would AEG predict that, knowing Murray's debts, Murray was going to administer propofol to MJ, and worse Murray was not going to monitor MJ properly as he administers a cocktail of drugs to MJ. how can you predict something like this with that kind of information? it's even harder to predict because Murray has been MJ personal doctors for 3 flipping years with no incident or record of wrongdoing.
 
after my channel got delete cause of about some weird gaga fans, my new account with this upload...

full piers morgan segment from august 15th

[youtube]aCxOPFdwVok[/youtube]
 
question. i have not read the discussion from the last week here. so, was it allready discussed about the history munich. where two doctors gave propofol?
cause i was there all these days, and never recognized doctors going in there, or recognized that michael jackson looked tired or anything else. did someone recognized anything thats not normal on tour. i did not. it was like it was always.
 
question. i have not read the discussion from the last week here. so, was it allready discussed about the history munich. where two doctors gave propofol?
cause i was there all these days, and never recognized doctors going in there, or recognized that michael jackson looked tired or anything else. did someone recognized anything thats not normal on tour. i did not. it was like it was always.

It was in a hotel room, DR testified that the room was set up like a proper surgery and a team monitored him.

However, I am interested to hear from Dr Ratner ( an anesthesiologist) was one of the doctors who accompanied Michael on the History tour. Debbie made no mention of him.
 
after my channel got delete cause of about some weird gaga fans, my new account with this upload...

full piers morgan segment from august 15th

[youtube]aCxOPFdwVok[/youtube]

Mez I love all but Katherine won't get a billion dollar and you won't get tens of millions for referring her to Panish .
 
Have we actually established whether AEG could have carried out the same check on Murray as law enforcement could?
yes, Orlando Martinez did at the beginning of the trial. he specified what was public and what was not.



Not really, Murray was going to be travelling with them, and closing down practices, he would have needed some form of contract. Very different than simply seeing a doctor at their offices.

Murray needed a contract, that's true, but not necessarily with AEG.
Based on Kai Chase's testimony : she was supposed to have a contract with AEG for the London part, she did not have one for the Carolwood part, and was not supposed to.
 
Thanks Bouee, I must be a little slow, I have re-read Martinez summary and it's just not clear to me how much AEG could have delved without either Murray's permission or a supeona. I'm just not sure from the debts that we discuss whether its reasonable that AEG could have found that info.

Murrays contract was originally only meant for London - I don't know why it was brought forward, I guess because he had already closed his practises and was working for Michael.
 
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