Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[LastTear]

@Bubs, I see your point, I was more offended by the fact he referred to the memorial as a show, to me it makes light of it. Porr Randy still trying to prove he is a man. (moonwalker) lol

I had a nice holiday thanks, a little hard trying to keep up with the this trial though, all I have so far is a feeling of anger and utter frustration at the Jacksons for bringing this, regardless of how we fans individually feel about drug use and debts, prior to this trial these were just tabloid fodder, now expert witnesses are testifying to there being truth to those rumours and as a result to the general public's view of Michael is that he ended his life as a drug riddled, broke has-been.

 

[Bubs]

I agree she had to know he had money problems b/c for one thing, the cubs would complain that MJ owed them $ (Randy), and Jermaine knew the Neverland was going to go into foreclosure and that's when he got hold of Tohme, so if Jerm knew that, how come KJ did not? How could KJ not notice that there were no promotions of Invincible, no singles after YRMW? Also not tours after HIStory (97), no new albums after Invincible (2001). She had to know he was in bad shape. She was there for the 05 trial, or did she forget about that too as well as the CM trial?

I find it hard that a mother would have such a lavish home as Hayvenhurst, over 200K just for the staff, all expenses paid by a son she knew was hurting for $$, and then to badger him for the AllGood tour and ignore the stress he was already under--MJ must have npoticed that his mother did not notice what was going on with him physically and emotionally in May and June 09. But she did notice she wanted a 600k motorhome. This is really so sad. A woman who lived in a small 2 bedroom home and now demands such luxuries from her son instead of supporting him and saying look, money is not important, love is.

Wasn't MJ's money problems presented on court during 2005 trial and she sat there everyday?
She cannot be clueless about MJ's money problems as she was well aware of her other cubs owning childsupport and not paying a thing, bankruptcies across the family members. Also I think in some way she thought that what ever you own to someone, you are not meant to pay it back. Fine example of her line of thinking
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50562046/Jackson-Family-Values
from page 414 onwards to page 423
She wanted the money, screw the people who worked for that mini-series and screw the childsupport that Jermaine owned.
Margaret's book was real eye opener as to what was going on in that household, and who ruled the roots.

P.S. Where is the Papa Joe? He is silent .... weird. :fear:

I think Panish has told them to shut up as they and their big mouth got them into hot mess, and they are ruining Randy's extortion attempt.

 

[Justthefacts]

Beside Randy's deposition and I believe Rebbie's there was no one so far who gave any shocking testimony regarding drug abuse , Sasaki was fully aware of the other doctors , he confirmed MJ had a surgery that needed medication at some point stopped because he believed MJ was taking too much , something MJ publicly acknowledged at the time .

Seriously , the Jacksons could have had a good chance of getting something if it were not for the hate and resentment they have for MJ which they could not hide after his death .

Greed and stupidity don't mix. And I do not like calling people stuid but some times the shoe does fit

 

[Bubs]

I liked Ackerman's testimony as to me he seemed to be sensible and straighforward with what he testified.
-----------
"He could've been bankrupt within 6 months as far as I know," Ackerman opined. Panish asked if after bankruptcy MJ wouldn't have debt left.
Ackerman: He would not be able to provide support for his mother and children then.

Well, isn't that true.
----------------------
Panish: Did you know MJ gave Mrs. Jackson a $500,000 RV?
Ackerman: Yes, it was in my analysis.

I cannot get over this. Was that RV on KJ's name and if MJ had money to buy that RV, why didn't he pay Havenhurst mortgage. Something fishy going on!
-----------------------------
Panish asked if he thought MJ would give the kids everything he thought important. Ackerman responded MJ wanted his children to be humble

Ackerman knows about MJ more than Panish. MJ did not spoil his kids.
--------------------
Ackerman: Colony Capital came in when Neverland was about to be foreclosed and lent MJ $23 million with a very interest rate, by the way.
Panish: But didn't you testify yesterday the loan had no interest?
Ackerman explained it was high interest loan but he didn't have to pay it

Whats that mean?
------------------
Ackerman said there was very strong language in Michael Kane's deposition that Michael Jackson was tapped out.

I suppose we will be hearing more about MJ's money problems.

 

[Justthefacts]

DEBBIE ROWE TO TESTIFY
MJ ABUSED PROPOFOL
12 Years Before Death

"Michael Jackson was not only addicted to powerful drugs 12 years before he died ... at least twice in the late 90s doctors misused a drug similar to Propofol so MJ could sleep through the night ... and we've learned that's exactly what MJ's former wife Debbie Rowe will tell the jury today.

A drug similar to Propfol?

Sources familiar with Debbie Rowe's testimony tell TMZ ... Rowe -- who will be called to the stand by AEG Live -- views herself as a hostile witness, because she feels AEG is largely responsible for MJ's death.

We've learned Rowe will testify ... in 1997 doctors administered Diprivan (a form of Propofol) to Michael in a Munich, Germany hotel room. We're told Rowe will say the drug was administered specifically so Michael could sleep. There was a full medical staff present and MJ slept under the influence of the drug for 8 hours. This occurred on 2 days, either consecutive or 1 day apart.

Diprivan is Propofol Harvey

The testimony is significant because AEG is trying to show MJ was the master of his own fate and had misused Propofol for years.

But we've learned Rowe will also say while she was married to MJ she never saw him as a raging drug addict. She will testify he was addicted to Demerol ... which he used to deal with the pain and anxiety from scalp surgeries after being horribly burned. She says when she left Michael in July, 1997, he was not an out-of-control addict. In fact, he had gone to rehab and was open about it.


Michael and Debbie divorced in 1999. If she left him in 97 where did Paris come from?

As TMZ first reported, Rowe injected Michael in the buttocks with Demerol and Vistaril several times while she worked for Dr. Arnold Klein -- MJ's closest doctor and confidante. Rowe had no idea in the last months of MJ's life Klein injected the singer with Demerol scores of times.

She did not know because it was none of her business. And the last story I thought it was Klein who gave Michael Demerol and Vistaril

We've learned if asked ... Rowe will say she was horrified when she saw a TMZ video of Michael looking totally out of it as he left Dr. Klein's office days before he died. The day MJ passed, Rowe will testify she called Klein and said, "You killed him. What did you give him?"

Seeing how Klein did not kill him that will help the Jacksons a lit. (NOT)

We're told Rowe wants to tell the jury ... when the "This Is It" tour was announced and she heard the breakneck concert schedule, she told her shrink, "They're [AEG] gonna kill him."


Seeing how AEG did not kill him what would be the point of her saying that?

http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/14/debbi...ongful-death-trial-aeg-live-demerol-propofol/[/QUOTE]

 

[bouee]

Beside Randy's deposition and I believe Rebbie's there was no one so far who gave any shocking testimony regarding drug abuse , Sasaki was fully aware of the other doctors , he confirmed MJ had a surgery that needed medication at some point stopped because he believed MJ was taking too much , something MJ publicly acknowledged at the time .

Seriously , the Jacksons could have had a good chance of getting something if it were not for the hate and resentment they have for MJ which they could not hide after his death .

I agree.
So far the Jacksons have a better case regarding the facts, but from the very litle info I read, AEG sems to be doing better moneywise, if you except Briggs who was as ridiculous as Erk, apparently.

 

[bouee]

--------------------
Ackerman: Colony Capital came in when Neverland was about to be foreclosed and lent MJ $23 million with a very interest rate, by the way.
Panish: But didn't you testify yesterday the loan had no interest?
Ackerman explained it was high interest loan but he didn't have to pay it

Whats that mean?
------------------

My understanding : they bought a share of Neverland. If Michael wanted it back, he would have had yo pay it back + interests. It was made in the form of a loan. For what reason , I don't know. By reason I mean : what was Colonyy's interest in doing that ?


Welcome back Last Tear, hope you had a great holiday !

 

[LastTear]

I agree.
So far the Jacksons have a better case regarding the facts, but from the very litle info I read, AEG sems to be doing better moneywise, if you except Briggs who was as ridiculous as Erk, apparently.

Thank you, yes the holiday was very nice - but it's nice being back at home with all my animals.

To be honest I have felt that most of this trial has been about damages, and obviously from AEG's side, accountability, hence the long term drug testimony. I'm still really not sure what the outcome will be, I have yet to catch up and read AEG's motion, but I would be interested to hear the closing arguments and in particular the Judges instruction to the jury.

 

[ivy]

Didn't that also allow Sony to get hold of a larger share of the catalog, or the whole catalog, if Michael defaulted ? Sony is corporation, they certainly did not do that just to help Michael, they had an advantage in doing that, there must have been a counterpart.

yes it did. if Michael defaulted as the catalog was the collateral for the loan the financial institution would take over Michael's share and start the process to sell it. Selling such assets include a lot of steps and takes a long time - sending notices, waiting for grace periods, taking bids, evaluating a bid, accepting a sale etc. So Sony's advantage would be, if Michael defaulted and the financial institution was about to get control of the catalog, Sony could pay the $300 M and get the catalog themselves. So yes not only sony guaranteeing the loan helped Michael in terms of low interest rate, it also ensured that if it come to a point the catalog had to be sold to cover the debts Sony would be pay the debt and get control of it without going through a sale.

Ackerman: Colony Capital came in when Neverland was about to be foreclosed and lent MJ $23 million with a very interest rate, by the way.
Panish: But didn't you testify yesterday the loan had no interest?
Ackerman explained it was high interest loan but he didn't have to pay it

Whats that mean?

My understanding : they bought a share of Neverland. If Michael wanted it back, he would have had yo pay it back + interests. It was made in the form of a loan. For what reason , I don't know. By reason I mean : what was Colonyy's interest in doing that ?

I understand it like he was given a loan with no due date - hence he did not need to pay.

This is what we know: Colony gave $23 Million, got 12.5% share but as it was undivided share they got 100% use of the property.

The $23 Million had an interest rate on it. But it did not have a due date.

so Michael did not have to pay back the $23 Million. He could have stayed as co-owners of Neverland with equal use rights with Colony. However let's say if he wanted to get back Neverland from Colony after 5 years he would have required to pay $23 Million + 5 years of interest.

 

[Soundmind]

so Michael did not have to pay back the $23 Million. He could have stayed as co-owners of Neverland with equal use rights with Colony. However let's say if he wanted to get back Neverland from Colony after 5 years he would have required to pay $23 Million + 5 years of interest.

which means the more the estate waits to regain full ownership of the property the more they have to pay . At some point the value of Colony's share will overcome the value of the estate's share . Why would not Branca buy it back ? the sooner the better . That's my understanding

 

[bouee]

yes it did. if Michael defaulted as the catalog was the collateral for the loan the financial institution would take over Michael's share and start the process to sell it. Selling such assets include a lot of steps and takes a long time - sending notices, waiting for grace periods, taking bids, evaluating a bid, accepting a sale etc. So Sony's advantage would be, if Michael defaulted and the financial institution was about to get control of the catalog, Sony could pay the $300 M and get the catalog themselves. So yes not only sony guaranteeing the loan helped Michael in terms of low interest rate, it also ensured that if it come to a point the catalog had to be sold to cover the debts Sony would be pay the debt and get control of it without going through a sale.

was that part of the deal with Sony in 97 or around that time, when Michael & Sony made a deal regarding the catalogue , I'm still not up to date with Ackerman's testimony.

which means the more the estate waits to regain full ownership of the property the more they have to pay . At some point the value of Colony's share will overcome the value of the estate's share . Why would not Branca buy it back ? the sooner the better . That's my understanding

That's what I understand too & it applied to Michael as well : so if he never paid it back, after a while Colony could have claimed Neverland entirely, or something else from Michael's assets.
But with no due date ???

Which brings me to my next question : is there a link between Colony Capital and AEG ? Colony are no angels, they did that becasue they thought they would gain something from the deal. I don't get what.

 

[TheChosenOne]

That Debbie Rowe story has officially done my head in.

In light of recent events with Paris, the media has a special interest in what Ms Rowe has to say.

I would like to think that she will take care of what she says, if she wants to maintain a good relationship with her daughter. But then, this is a woman who admits to being long-time friends with Levin of TMZ.

 

[LastTear]

Slowly catching up here. I'm interested to hear opinions regarding AEG's motion of non suit.

I didn't realise this before

AEG states case law that says in California negligent hiring requires “the contact between plaintiff and employee was generated by the employment relationship” and “if employee met plaintiff as a result of something other than employment, a duty will not be imposed on employer

 

[jaydom7]

TMZ's article is dumb.. first of all Diprivan is the brand name and propofol is the generic name, so they are the same thing. Diprivan is not a 'form' of propofol, it's the brand name

And from the sounds of it Debbie is not going to throw MJ under the bus.. she even said she never saw MJ take anything after they were married and his medication use was because of the scalp injury and pain. We all know that, so I don't see the problem. We will see how Debbie pulls this off

 

[Soundmind]

AEG states case law that says in California negligent hiring requires “the contact between plaintiff and employee was generated by the employment relationship” and “if employee met plaintiff as a result of something other than employment, a duty will not be imposed on employer

When Murray killed MJ that day , and when he attended to him starting May the contact was generated by the employment relationship. He was not catering to him as a friend obviously .

 

[Annita]

which means the more the estate waits to regain full ownership of the property the more they have to pay . At some point the value of Colony's share will overcome the value of the estate's share . Why would not Branca buy it back ? the sooner the better . That's my understanding

The Estate has a lawsuit against TohmeTohme. Part of the suit is also the Neverland-Deal. Nothing will happen with Neverland until the decision of the suit has happen.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...hme-Tohme-countersues-Tohme-s-complaint-pg-14

 

[Bubs]

which means the more the estate waits to regain full ownership of the property the more they have to pay . At some point the value of Colony's share will overcome the value of the estate's share . Why would not Branca buy it back ? the sooner the better . That's my understanding

I would love to see the estate buying it back, but the way KJ is spending money, and if her lawyers bills are sent to the estate, its going to be years when the estate has money to purchase NL back.

Thanks @Annita, I forgot that Tohme lawsuit. In case the estate wins, NL deal is void.

@Bubs, I see your point, I was more offended by the fact he referred to the memorial as a show, to me it makes light of it. Porr Randy still trying to prove he is a man. (moonwalker) lol

I had a nice holiday thanks, a little hard trying to keep up with the this trial though, all I have so far is a feeling of anger and utter frustration at the Jacksons for bringing this, regardless of how we fans individually feel about drug use and debts, prior to this trial these were just tabloid fodder, now expert witnesses are testifying to there being truth to those rumours and as a result to the general public's view of Michael is that he ended his life as a drug riddled, broke has-been.

I'm surprised he didn't call it party :angry:
The other day I needed that quote of what Randy said but couldn't find it anywhere. Do you have a link to it?

Yes, this trial is bs in my opinion, and I'm well and truly fed up reading the headlines.
MJ was drug addict, MJ's kids could wake up their over dosed dad, MJ refused family help and intervention, MJ was 500 million in debt........................... Sick of it.

 

[LastTear]

When Murray killed MJ that day , and when he attended to him starting May the contact was generated by the employment relationship. He was not catering to him as a friend obviously .

Of course, but am I understanding the law correctly, that as Michael brought CM in that a duty cannot be imposed on AEG? Or is this just AEG's interpretation of the law?

 

[ivy]

which means the more the estate waits to regain full ownership of the property the more they have to pay . At some point the value of Colony's share will overcome the value of the estate's share . Why would not Branca buy it back ? the sooner the better . That's my understanding

I think Tohme is the reason. First of all he would get 10% from every transaction. And the lawsuit with Tohme is challenging his contracts and his ability as a manager. If they can win against Tohme, they can seek to invalidate the Neverland deal and get it back at a lower amount.

was that part of the deal with Sony in 97 or around that time, when Michael & Sony made a deal regarding the catalogue , I'm still not up to date with Ackerman's testimony.

I got it as part of the last 2006 financing. If you add two days together, he talks about bankruptcy remote trusts New Horizon and such. Those were established in 2006.

AEG states case law that says in California negligent hiring requires “the contact between plaintiff and employee was generated by the employment relationship” and “if employee met plaintiff as a result of something other than employment, a duty will not be imposed on employer

Slowly catching up here. I'm interested to hear opinions regarding AEG's motion of non suit.

I didn't realise this before

When Murray killed MJ that day , and when he attended to him starting May the contact was generated by the employment relationship. He was not catering to him as a friend obviously .

Soundmind - AEG claims law differentiates between how people met being a factor.

For example if a company sends a delivery guy to a customers house to deliver an order and the delivery guy beats the customer , you can see that the contact (being at the house) was generated by the employment (delivering the order). However if a person and the delivery guy ran each other at a parking lot of a store and delivery guy beat the guy, the contact did not happen due to employment.

In this instance AEG is arguing as Murray and Michael met in 2006 - long before the contract between AEG and Murray - Michael and Murray's contact and Murray's treatment of Michael wasn't generated by AEG employment. It was already present for 3 years.

the logic behind a negligent hiring claim is that the company is exposing the customers/other workers to a dangerous employee and risking harm. the counter argument is that if the exposure is not due to company, the company can't be found liable. If the company sends a delivery person with violence tendencies to your home, they are liable. however if you ran into this guy on your own, the employer is not responsible.

Or is this just AEG's interpretation of the law?

It is. everything is an interpretation. There can be opposite examples, or special conditions. we will have to see what Jacksons side argue and how the judge will decide.

 

[bouee]

I got it as part of the last 2006 financing. If you add two days together, he talks about bankruptcy remote trusts New Horizon and such. Those were established in 2006.

Thanks , yes I finished reading and saw it was not part of the 97 deal.

 

[LastTear]

I would love to see the estate buying it back, but the way KJ is spending money, and if her lawyers bills are sent to the estate, its going to be years when the estate has money to purchase NL back.

Thanks @Annita, I forgot that Tohme lawsuit. In case the estate wins, NL deal is void.





I'm surprised he didn't call it party :angry:
The other day I deeded that quote of what Randy said but couldn't find it anywhere. Do you have a link to it?

Yes, this trial is bs in my opinion, and I'm well and truly fed up reading the headlines.
MJ was drug addict, MJ's kids could wake up their over dosed dad, MJ refused family help and intervention, MJ was 500 million in debt........................... Sick of it. ?

Which quote? Do you mean about being a man?

IMO this trial has caused major step backs for all Michael fans who have defended him over the years, it's like we are back at square one and his brilliance is once again eclipsed.

 

[ivy]

oh and about opinions about AEG's motion for nonsuit

it always looks like AEG has a strong legal argument, valid points in their motions. so it makes you think that they would win such motions. and they did win some and lost some. so when interpretation comes into play , you can never tell the outcome. also it's not wise to try to predict an outcome without seeing the other sides arguments. We are yet to see how Jackson lawyers will counter this motion.

we talked about direct connection and particular risk before - such as a person with history of violence beating someone else. There's also a condition that is called "totality". So it's kinda like you don't need such direct connection but the totality should put you on the alert - such as seeing a person getting arrested 10 times over the last month can put you on alert that they will probably get in trouble in the future.

now as this judge previously ruled "Murray's debt + Michael's drug issues " raises the question of if a person can foreseeably see Murray would be supplying drugs to Michael. so I don't expect her to change her stand. plus it's a high standard motion, judge needs to think either there's no legal basis or there's no way to prove the claims. if she thinks there's a slight possibility, she must let the jury decide. This is a motion/request that is commonly denied although there have been successful ones even in high profile cases (Sam Lufti - Britney Spears , Anna Nicole Smith case)

that being said she also now has a lot more information. when she decided on the motion for summary judgment, majority of the people weren't even deposed (including expert witnesses, some of jacksons, some key witnesses and so on). for example at summary judgment motion time all she had was phillips and gongaware's signed affidavits that they did not know about Propofol, now she has heard from several other witnesses who were close to Michael and unaware of Propofol. so she might change her opinion but as I said I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

 

[#MJforever57]

Beside Randy's deposition and I believe Rebbie's there was no one so far who gave any shocking testimony regarding drug abuse , Sasaki was fully aware of the other doctors , he confirmed MJ had a surgery that needed medication at some point stopped because he believed MJ was taking too much , something MJ publicly acknowledged at the time .

Seriously , the Jacksons could have had a good chance of getting something if it were not for the hate and resentment they have for MJ which they could not hide after his death .

That is correct Michael might have left them something in the bold.

 

[Bubs]

Which quote? Do you mean about being a man?

IMO this trial has caused major step backs for all Michael fans who have defended him over the years, it's like we are back at square one and his brilliance is once again eclipsed.

Yes, about the meeting where everybody laughed to Randy saying I'm a man.

It is getting harder and harder to comment on any news articles when you get replies that fans being delusional and even MJ's family says he was a hopeless addict etc.

 

[LastTear]

Yes, about the meeting where everybody laughed to Randy saying I'm a man.

It is getting harder and harder to comment on any news articles when you get replies that fans being delusional and even MJ's family says he was a hopeless addict etc.

It was in Moonwalk, I will try and have a flick through. I always think of that when Randy's name comes up, equally when Tito's name comes up I think of a passage in Margaret M's book - I bet you know which one! lol

 

[Bubs]

Ivy or somebody who knows this stuff. KJ was given that RV and if I remeber right the value was $600,000 + Mercedes.
Could she have had those cars in her name? I was wondering that Segye Times were after their money when they found out she was in MJ's Will, and wanted their money back from KJ's share. ST couldn't get their money from her share, but she loaned money from the estate to pay her debt. Why ST didn't go after those cars when she got them?

It was in Moonwalk, I will try and have a flick through. I always think of that when Randy's name comes up, equally when Tito's name comes up I think of a passage in Margaret M's book - I bet you know which one! lol

I thought that Randy thing was from the tapes that MJ's ghost writer had, not in the book?
I skimmed Margarets book through and didn't concentrate Tito at all. What was it about Tito?
Madame Pongo got stuck to my head thou

 

[twinklEE]

I'm scared of what Debbie is going to testify and how the media is going to sensationalize it.
Micchael's been dragged and dragged and dragged through the mud ever since he died, nobody is willing to give him a break. I don't even want to know what's going to happen when Murray is released from jail, which is this October, thanks to Katherine not going for restitution Murray is free as a bird.
He will be the first killer openly supported by the media and society they will help him make money out of the death he caused.

 

[LastTear]

I thought that Randy thing was from the tapes that MJ's ghost writer had, not in the book?
I skimmed Margarets book through and didn't concentrate Tito at all. What was it about Tito?
Madame Pongo got stuck to my head thou

Idk, I feel like I have known it forever... hmmm. I haven't found it yet in the re-released version, I'm scared to try and find it in my original as it's about to fall apart. Thanks for putting pongo back in my head uke: And Tito, lol DeeDee apparently told her he used to thump his fists on the bed and demand you know what, just like a spoilt child.

 

[Bubs]

Idk, I feel like I have known it forever... hmmm. I haven't found it yet in the re-released version, I'm scared to try and find it in my original as it's about to fall apart. Thanks for putting pongo back in my head uke: And Tito, lol DeeDee apparently told her he used to thump his fists on the bed and demand you know what, just like a spoilt child.

I guess thumping your fist on the bed is a lot better than raping wives and ex-wives a la Jermaine style.

Btw, I found the link to MJ tapes that weren't put into his book:
http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/39352864.html
ON RANDY: His youngest brother - who joined the group when they became The Jacksons - made the mistake of never taking *****'s advice. "He doesn't listen and is real hard-headed," he said of Randy, now 47. "You say it's dark - he'll say it's daylight. And he has to be macho. I'll never forget the day we had a meeting with our producer who said you've got to stand up on your own.
"Randy stood up and said: "I'm a man' - we are all started laughing."

I wonder if MJ hurt his feelings by laughing that day, and he has carried that humiliation with him all these years and now it is his payback time?




I have to say, I wouldn't want to be in debbie's shoes today. No matter what she says, she will hurt someone, whether it is PPB, MJ, fans or family (not that I care about family at all).

 

[crillon]

I'm scared of what Debbie is going to testify and how the media is going to sensationalize it.
Micchael's been dragged and dragged and dragged through the mud ever since he died, nobody is willing to give him a break. I don't even want to know what's going to happen when Murray is released from jail, which is this October, thanks to Katherine not going for restitution Murray is free as a bird.
He will be the first killer openly supported by the media and society they will help him make money out of the death he caused.

Debbie Rowe's testimony as an AEG witness will be interesting & I imagine she's nervous about it. The media, as usual, will exploit it. I just hope the Jacksons don't seek revenge by restricting her access to Paris, which would be harmful on so many levels.