Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Bubs]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Why bother having deadlines for witness lists if the judge then says the deadlines dont matter and u can add ppl after.

I don't get this judge, she either hates Michael or she feels pity for Katherine and bends over backwards to accommondate all their needs? This is what she rules in March:
Judge's order

Katherine Jackson has to provide deposition dates for retained experts by March 11 and depositions should be concluded by April 8th.

AEG has to provide deposition dates for retained experts by March 14 and depositions should be concluded by April 8th.

Any expert for Katherine that isn't given a deposition date by March 22 and any expert for AEG that isn't given a deposition date by April 8th will be excluded - unless both parties agree to keep them.

for any witness deposed before March 24, Motion to exclude expert witness should be filed by March 24, oppositions by March 26, reply by April 1st. Hearing is set for April 8th.

For any witness expert deposed after March 24, motion to exclude should be filed 3 days after their depositions.

By March 18 Katherine has to limit her non retained experts to witnesses who they believe they will call to testify at trial.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Like others say how can the j.sons use medical records to their advantage. those records were sealed until now. aeg did not have access to them so what they say is irrelevent as no one knew what was in them.it cant be argued that aeg should have known based on the records as obviously they didnt have access to them.

also seeing as the claim that aeg hired murray and came up with the idea for diprivan and made murray give it was thrown out then to me whys it relevent to show mj had a supposed history of using diprivan to sleep.

I tried to figure it out in a previous post. All I can think of :

1993 symptoms = 2009 symptoms, Could/should have recognised there was a problem (slippery, given Gongaware is not a medical professional)

Michael was getting drs to use propofol off the label (that is if he can get a dr to do something a dr doesn't want to do) . He would have gotten propofol with or without AEG, it was his choice. Slippery also, because the problem is not propofol per se. The problem was Murray's negligence- the way he gave it to Michael.

Other than that, I have no idea why they would want the medical files. And if I'm right, then they don't need to use that much from the files. We'll see. I don't know, I could be totally wrong.

Anyway, it shoudn't even be up to a judge to unseal someone's medical files ! That's really disgusting and a huge lack of respect for Michael.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Is there any information available on how much money AEG earned in the end? With the tickets that were not returned, the movie etc.? They got back all their advances from the estate right?

 

[ivy]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

hmm I'll try to clarify some stuff

- As for witnesses the judge thinks their late addition makes sense because they heard or needed about these witnesses at a late stage. TMez was added after the judge allowed the 2005 accusations / trial and Sharon Osbourne only mentioned her discussion with a person from AEG on April 2nd. So this is the reason that she allows these late witnesses. The other 14 such as Paramedic Blount etc according to the judge is known as a possible witness and not new or surprising or would not cause any problems in getting ready for the trial.

- Although the request to seal the medical records are denied, it doesn't mean everything will become public. As I said before only the portions referred and added to motions and only the ones entered into evidence during trial will become public. Technically it means there could be stuff that was collected during discovery phase but never used remain private. We will need to wait and see what becomes public.

- Why would they need medical records? I'm thinking AEG will use the medical records a lot more than the Jacksons. In the opening statements AEG identified 45 doctors that Michael was "drug shopping". Jacksons need to show that Michael had a "known" addiction / dependency. So I'm assuming Dr. Finkelstein (Dangerous tour doctor who told Gongaware MJ was forming dependency) and witnesses such as Karen Faye, Bodyguard Bill Whitfield and so on will help Jacksons to show a "known" or obvious dependency.

AEG on the other hand would probably use doctors to show Michael was given Propofol for a decade ( Ratner? , Debbie Rowe), he asked for Propofol from multiple doctors (Metzger, Lee, Adams) and he even used Propofol for minor dental or skin procedures (Tadrissi and so on) and at times he lied about his drug use (Fournier).

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

When they say 45 doctors are they talking about doctors from 1984 thru 2009?

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I read Ivy's summaries , and I have 1 question : I know Gongaware made travel arrangements for the Dangerous tour. Do we know if he was there , if he actually was on the tour ?
I have worked in the travel industry and seen a few bands on tour, usually there is someone present who deals with travel arrangements, so I assumed Gongaware was there. If he wasn't , then that's different.
I was assuming he actually saw Michael in trouble in 93, and could have compared with Michael in 2009.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I'm so angry regarding the medical records being unsealed. I am so p*ssed off at this judge.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Thanks, Ivy, for posting documents for us, and for your excellent analyses of the components of this trial! Much appreciated!

With that said, I'll just say that I find all this to be incredibly discouraging, and just plain, sad. One thing I do hope for, though, is that there will not be a lot of discussion here about what the children are, or are not, "fine with," because we have NO way of knowing what their sentiments really are! As Ivy explained, as minor children with Katherine as guardian, they have no legal standing as to whether this lawsuit happened, at all, or whether or not they will give depositions and/or testify, or any of the rest of it. The one making decisions FOR them, under the law, is Katherine, as their guardian. The guardian ad litem is NOT representing their interests in this lawsuit. She only represents them in matters relating to the Estate, and probate. They have no "independent counsel." Just the same attorney that Katherine is using to bring this lawsuit. While those kids may be mature for their ages, that does not mean that they are making any decisions at all as to whether or not this lawsuit happened in the first-place, the tactics Katherine's attorney takes, or any of the rest of it.

Given the trend, of the immense negativity toward Michael by both sides, I do hope that those kids are doing OTHER things, and not even reading too much about any of this? They have no legal standing here, as minors, and haven't they been hurt ENOUGH?

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Thanks, Ivy, for posting documents for us, and for your excellent analyses of the components of this trial! Much appreciated!

With that said, I'll just say that I find all this to be incredibly discouraging, and just plain, sad. One thing I do hope for, though, is that there will not be a lot of discussion here about what the children are, or are not, "fine with," because we have NO way of knowing what their sentiments really are! As Ivy explained, as minor children with Katherine as guardian, they have no legal standing as to whether this lawsuit happened, at all, or whether or not they will give depositions and/or testify, or any of the rest of it. The one making decisions FOR them, under the law, is Katherine, as their guardian. The guardian ad litem is NOT representing their interests in this lawsuit. She only represents them in matters relating to the Estate, and probate. They have no "independent counsel." Just the same attorney that Katherine is using to bring this lawsuit. While those kids may be mature for their ages, that does not mean that they are making any decisions at all as to whether or not this lawsuit happened in the first-place, the tactics Katherine's attorney takes, or any of the rest of it.

Given the trend, of the immense negativity toward Michael by both sides, I do hope that those kids are doing OTHER things, and not even reading too much about any of this? They have no legal standing here, as minors, and haven't they been hurt ENOUGH?

I agree. Not one of us know's what the children are thinking/feeling.

 

[ivy]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I want to clarify my opinion about something:

The kids might want to pursue a lawsuit and even willing to testify. What I'm not sure is whether or not they have been given the full picture and know and ready what pandora's box this trial can open. There's a reason why the Estate has not sued AEG, there's a reason why desperately Estate tried to seal the medical records. Are the kids ready for testifying? If Prince couldn't handle deposition, is he ready for cross-examination? We see all the people coming out of the woodwork , all the negative stories that are being written about Michael - and the Jacksons.

Katherine's lawyers have their own motivations which includes getting their name known and possibly get a huge payout if they win this case. So that means they might not be looking out for the individual best interest of the kids.

So even if the kids might want to pursue a lawsuit, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were given the full picture and made a decision while considering every aspect.

 

[qbee]

Jacksons vs AEG - Day 5 - May 6 2013 - Discussion

Jacksons vs AEG - Day 5 - May 6 2013 - Discussion


This is the daily discussion thread for Day 5. Moderators will also start a daily "news only" thread

Note: please use this daily discussion threads first to discuss the day's news and events in court and use the general discussion thread to discuss previous days or anything else in general pertaining to the trial. This thread will be merged into General discussion once we create a new daily thread.

Trial will be Mon-Thu from 9:30 am to noon (break) 1:30 pm to 4:00/4:30 pm and Fridays 9:00 am to noon, (break) 2:30 to 4:00/4:30 pm , unless a reschedule is announced by the court.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

You can never be sure, but I guess with lawyers like that I would say that the kids will be very well prepared. And considering cross-examination, I am thinking that will be a very delicate matter for AEG. These children will have the full sympathy of the jurors and any question that come across as too harsh or anything will backfire on them big time.

 

[qbee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I don't think they will even need to be harsh. Just state direct questions, related to the case, based on knowledge the children stated in their depositions. I'm sure they understand the backlash if they are harsh, being Jackson's already made a stink about the deposition of Prince (Which AEG denied and gave transcripts/recordings to the judge to see ) But It will be a delicate situation for sure. I fear for their well being with this trial. IMO Michael's children shouldn't have been placed in the middle of this situation... and If anything I hope it makes them stronger and wiser. but it will certainly will affect their innocent childlike hearts. Look how much it effects us at a distance.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

There's a reason why the Estate has not sued AEG, there's a reason why desperately Estate tried to seal the medical records.

Exactly. :doh:

 

[ivy]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Do you have any documented proof that there are others behind the lawsuit? Otherwise it is just speculation and isn't really productive.

Well I would think that Randy Jackson's involvement is pretty obvious in this case. Not only Randy, Janet and Jermaine share the same lawyers as Katherine and the kids, those 3 also objected to the deposition of Taunya Zilkie. Plus the fans who are known to be close to Randy are saying and thanking Randy for bringing this lawsuit.

As for "proof", I pretty much expect this to be a question (why did you sue? who told you to sue? etc) to be asked either during testimony or depositions.

Also

August 31, 2010

Randy Jackson ?@randyjackson8 31 Aug 10
I know its been a long time since I've tweeted. But that does not mean that things are not happening... You will understand what that means shortly.

September 15, 2010

Randy Jackson ?@randyjackson8 15 Sep 10
Today was a good day. Last year I promised that I would not rest until the truth is exposed about what happened to my brothers passing. May he rest in peace. I am doing my best to keep that promise. On this day my family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against AEG. I am proud of my family. Please understand its not over, we have a long way to go. There is more to come. We are just getting started.

16 March 2011

Randy Jackson ?@randyjackson8 16 Mar 11
Sorry to keep you waiting, We are actually going to trial!. In the midst of all this mayhem God has blessed me

--------------

To me his involvement and how invested he is in this trial is obvious.

 

[elapentela]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

You can never be sure, but I guess with lawyers like that I would say that the kids will be very well prepared. And considering cross-examination, I am thinking that will be a very delicate matter for AEG. These children will have the full sympathy of the jurors and any question that come across as too harsh or anything will backfire on them big time.

You mean the kids will be very well prepared by Jackson lawyers. How embarrassing...

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Someone will have to explain "perjury" to the Jacksons, very, very carefully, and the penalties for not being truthful under oath. Re: the potential questions, "why did you sue?" And, "who told you to sue?" I.e. who instigated the lawsuit, originally? Already there are serious veracity issues, i.e. conflicting statements about "interventions," and the signed letter that Michael had no drug issues. Both of those things cannot be true (in their minds), and the trial will require them to pick ONE version of the truth. That goes for any and all potential Jackson witnesses, where there are public statements out there -- and they will either have to explain why the public statements were not true, or align testimony to fit the public statements and stick with it. (already, I sense implosion as the trial moves forward. . . .)

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

You mean the kids will be very well prepared by Jackson lawyers. How embarrassing...

Please enlighten me, what exactly is embarrassing?

EDT: I am guessing a lawyer wants to win a case, right? So even if the Jacksons do not give a shit about these kids and their testimony I am sure that Panish will make sure they are prepared. And we do agree that he is a good lawyer? So I really do not get what exactly is embarrassing?

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

so AEG will use MJ's medical records to support the theory they stated in their opening statement; each time he had a procedure his real intentions were to get propofol nothing else . The manipulative MJ fooled the world into believing he was addicted to plastic surgery because he hated his look .However, it was all excuses to get propofol :smilerolleyes:. WOW no wonder they said he used 45 doctors.

 

[goldiee]

I totally agree with you but I think AEG is fearful of going after the Jackson’s because they believe the public thinks more highly of them than they actually do. Your argument is definitely a solid strategy for AEG which only proves that the fans are the only true expert witnesses to MJ’s life. We
know more about Michael than the Jackson’s and/or AEG Live combined with their overpriced lawyers and research teams of mud slingers!

But the public doesn't respect the Jacksons. I really think AEG is playing to the wrong angle here. People that don't like Michael think his family is a bunch of greedy lowlifes. I've heard people say that. Attacking Michael only proves the Jacksons point to the jury; that they're a bunch of cold, soulless monsters that didn't give a crap about this man's medical issues as long as he could get on that stage and perform.

 

[jamba]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I tried to figure it out in a previous post. All I can think of :

1993 symptoms = 2009 symptoms, Could/should have recognised there was a problem (slippery, given Gongaware is not a medical professional)

Michael was getting drs to use propofol off the label (that is if he can get a dr to do something a dr doesn't want to do) . He would have gotten propofol with or without AEG, it was his choice. Slippery also, because the problem is not propofol per se. The problem was Murray's negligence- the way he gave it to Michael.

Other than that, I have no idea why they would want the medical files. And if I'm right, then they don't need to use that much from the files. We'll see. I don't know, I could be totally wrong.

Anyway, it shoudn't even be up to a judge to unseal someone's medical files ! That's really disgusting and a huge lack of respect for Michael.

Bingo! If MJ used propofol before--and obviously did not die from it--then whoever was administering it knew what they were doing and how to do it safely, which CM had no clue about. Any prior use shows why MJ was comfortable with propofol and why he asked for it, but it does not show anything else IMO. It does not make AEG liable if they did not know about previous propofol use. If anything, it makes CM more culpable for taking advantage of MJ's belief propofol was safe.

The way this judge is going I see APPEAL likely.

I am starting to see that CM, AEG , and KJ and "the family" are all three responsible to varying degrees for MJ's death, so it is supreme irony that they are all now fighting among each other. Of the 3, I have most sympathy for AEG, but that doesn't mean they are pure as driven snow. Of the remaining 2, of course, CM holds the cards as the most irresponsible, incompetent, disrespectful, and unethical dr. imaginable, but the family, including the 'matriarch,' have a large part to play in that MJ was used and abused from such a young age. Most kids can get away from an abusive home situation while at school, but since he stopped going to school early on, he didn't have that experience either. The family hounded him for tours/shows when he came back to USA.

Having said that, the group that should be on trial here for his death should rightly be the media--including all those tabloid 'jeernalists' who wrote about him and talked about him in 93 and kept going until his death. They are the ones who should really be paying big $$$. Without their bs would any of the accusations have been taken seriously?? Or to the degree they were with all the resources thrown into them?

 

[marebear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I don't like this judge. I also see negative stories about Michael everyday and it breaks my heart. It just makes me sad how he is treated like nothing and everything is so negative about him. This time of year it gets pretty hard and this just adds to it.

 

[amoremotus]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

But the public doesn't respect the Jacksons. I really think AEG is playing to the wrong angle here. People that don't like Michael think his family is a bunch of greedy lowlifes. I've heard people say that. Attacking Michael only proves the Jacksons point to the jury; that they're a bunch of cold, soulless monsters that didn't give a crap about this man's medical issues as long as he could get on that stage and perform.

I am not sure about that. I think you are referring to the MJ community and not the general public. I do not think that people who really do not follow the family, have such a negative opinion about them, if any? Do they even know who Randy and Rebbie are? And I would think the general public still likes Katherine, not to mention the sympathy for her because she lost her son. And do not forget the kids are part of this lawsuit as well and the public sure thinks very highly of them. So I think Victory22 has a point that it would probably not be wise for AEG to go after the Jacksons that hard.

 

[jamba]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

But the public doesn't respect the Jacksons. I really think AEG is playing to the wrong angle here. People that don't like Michael think his family is a bunch of greedy lowlifes. I've heard people say that. Attacking Michael only proves the Jacksons point to the jury; that they're a bunch of cold, soulless monsters that didn't give a crap about this man's medical issues as long as he could get on that stage and perform.

Yes, the $$40 billion had a big impact there. The public had been told the Estate was doing well and so it seemed even more outlandish to ask that much (regardless if it was in a letter and not court docs--KJ's lawyers came up with that figure).

 

[HIStory]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

But the public doesn't respect the Jacksons. I really think AEG is playing to the wrong angle here.

I agree. In the opening statements I saw nothing indicating that AEG attempts to shed light on the family's motives or to talk about the contradiction between how they are trying to portay themselves now as if they were concerned for Michael's health, but in reality they were pressuring him to go on tour with them.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I am not sure about that. I think you are referring to the MJ community and not the general public. I do not think that people who really do not follow the family, have such a negative opinion about them, if any? Do they even know who Randy and Rebbie are? And I would think the general public still likes Katherine, not to mention the sympathy for her because she lost her son. And do not forget the kids are part of this lawsuit as well and the public sure thinks very highly of them. So I think Victory22 has a point that it would probably not be wise for AEG to go after the Jacksons that hard.

I disagree you have forgotton the actions of the Jacksons last summer. More people were calling the family greedy and screwed up then ever before. And let us not forget Joe Jackson

 

[shelly_webster]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I am not sure about that. I think you are referring to the MJ community and not the general public. I do not think that people who really do not follow the family, have such a negative opinion about them, if any? Do they even know who Randy and Rebbie are? And I would think the general public still likes Katherine, not to mention the sympathy for her because she lost her son. And do not forget the kids are part of this lawsuit as well and the public sure thinks very highly of them. So I think Victory22 has a point that it would probably not be wise for AEG to go after the Jacksons that hard.

I don't agree with you on that, people remember what they did when he died. They were seen as greedy way before he died.

 

[AngieJ]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I am not sure about that. I think you are referring to the MJ community and not the general public. I do not think that people who really do not follow the family, have such a negative opinion about them, if any? Do they even know who Randy and Rebbie are? And I would think the general public still likes Katherine, not to mention the sympathy for her because she lost her son. And do not forget the kids are part of this lawsuit as well and the public sure thinks very highly of them. So I think Victory22 has a point that it would probably not be wise for AEG to go after the Jacksons that hard.

Outside of Jackson family forums, I see absolutely no support for anything the Jacksons and Katherine do. How can the public even have the respect for them when they are always involved in the most seediest things and people.

In my observation most do see Katherine as a mother who is picking her son's bones.

 

[Smooth72]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I disagree you have forgotton the actions of the Jacksons last summer. More people were calling the family greedy and screwed up then ever before. And let us not forget Joe Jackson

This is going to be a long trial with a lot of info both ways. At the end of the day I believe the Jackson's will be awarded some sort of compensation. It will all come done to one thing in my opinion common sense. The fact MJ was not well was evident to all parties that seen him on a daily basis. Ortegas email asking for help and MJs bizarre behavior. It's a shame the Jackson's don't deserve shit but AEG needs to be held accountable for not helping MJ. Yes MJ is going to be trashed but that's what lawyers do in high stake cases.

 

[jamba]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

This is going to be a long trial with a lot of info both ways. At the end of the day I believe the Jackson's will be awarded some sort of compensation. It will all come done to one thing in my opinion common sense. The fact MJ was not well was evident to all parties that seen him on a daily basis. Ortegas email asking for help and MJs bizarre behavior. It's a shame the Jackson's don't deserve shit but AEG needs to be held accountable for not helping MJ. Yes MJ is going to be trashed but that's what lawyers do in high stake cases.

I am not disagreeing with you here, but MJ and his doc both claimed there was no problem when they had that meeting to discuss that issue (as DiLeo said in the email to CM, "He's sick'). This is where AEG did make an effort to investigate and was told to butt out by a doctor. Then after that there were 2 great rehearsals where MJ was more like his old self.

The other point is that CM actually told them to ignore MJ when he said he wasn't feeling well, acted weak, etc.--this was the 'tough love' idea that came from CM and that Kenny repeated to Karen Faye when she talked to him about MJ not feeling well, being thin, etc.