Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Mechi]

Do you think this is the reason KJ put kids names on it?

Yep probably! But it's still not fair from her! Her well being is assured by Michaels will! It's still pure egoism even if she wants the money only to give it to her greedy ofspring! They didn't care a bit about the well being of Michaels kids according to her very own testimony!

 

[Bubs]

There was no contract completely signed. But the contract was sent to AEG although Murray saw Michael on a daily basis.

But we do know Prince testified that Michael told him he didn't like how Phillips was treating him.
Also we do know Phillips was even able to get into Carolwood and meet Murray in a not friendly looking manner when Michael wasn't around.

AEG really needs to address this now... or better their lawyers should.
Because just saying the 13 year old boy had a daydream or even saying he is lying wouldn't help them... not enough at least.
I do not believe Prince is lying.

And throwing dirt at the Jacksons wouldn't help them enough also... I mean come on... they're dirty enough already to most of us and the public would only think they are throwing dirt to not having to throw their money over to them.

I'd like to address above points
Wasn't that contract get modified many times already? Maybe CM sent it to AEG because if they wanted to do more modifications to it?

About Prince seeing RP in the house:
Murray's attorney Valerie Wass and AEG defense attorney Marvin S. Putnam later denied outside court that the meeting Prince described ever happened.
Putnam said Prince would be recalled to the witness stand during the defense case later in the trial.
"I think as the testimony will show when he is called in our defense that's not what happened," Putnam said. "He was a 12-year-old boy who has had to endure this great tragedy."

We'll see later what testimony brings out. I have to admit it was a bit odd that Prince sometimes mixed Tohme and CM.

I belive AEG are going to show that it is not just K behind this lawsuit, but certain fam members. They will throw some dirt on family and whether public cares or not, doesn't really matter. AEG only need to show it to jurors as it is in their hands how this lawsuit is going to end.

 

[jaydom7]

So Katherine is admitting that MJ has had insomnia issues for years and years since 'he didn't sleep when he lived at home either'? if this is the case why didn't she has a mother get him some help years ago?

 

[Bubs]

^^ She waited to MJ to die for it so she can sue someone else for not taking care of her son's sleep.

 

[Bubs]

Michael Jackson's mom faces cross examination in death trial
By Alan Duke, CNN
July 22, 2013 -- Updated 0533 GMT (1333 HKT)
Katherine Jackson: Michael's mother, 82, was deposed for nine hours over three days by AEG Live lawyers. As the guardian of her son's three children, she is a plaintiff in the wrongful death lawsuit against the company that promoted Michael Jackson's comeback concerts.

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Michael Jackson's mother faces more questioning Monday from a lawyer for the concert promoter she's suing in her son's death.
Katherine Jackson became "confused and tired" when AEG Live lawyer Marvin Putnam asked her "some pretty complex questions very fast" during his cross examination Friday, her attorney said.
"She was trying to answer the questions the best she could," Jackson lawyer Brian Panish said. "I think maybe she lost her temper a little bit and she tried to restrain herself in a very Christian-like way."
The judge adjourned court two hours early Friday when Jackson told her she needed to rest, but she resumes her testimony in a Los Angeles courtroom Monday morning.

 

[ivy]

Telling someone 'your money is coming from us not Michael' while it was actually not, means you do act like someones boss or at least supervisor.

I believe Gongaware wrote that but there's no evidence to suggest that it was even said to Murray.

Do you think this is the reason KJ put kids names on it?

hard to speculate. It could be all because all of them (Katherine and MJ's kids) are his dependents / heirs or it could be because to increase the damages amount.

Hypothetical question, lets say, if KJ wasn't guardian to kids, she couldn't have filed this lawsuit without approval kids guardian?

yes she could have filed her own lawsuit. If there was another lawsuit by the kids, the two lawsuits could have been combined. IF there was no lawsuit , she would be required to give them notice and chance to join to her lawsuit.

Hypothetical question 2, had she completely lost guardianship after last summers madness, what would have happened to this lawsuit?

the guardian might have removed the kids from the lawsuit. Katherine's portion would still go on.

 

[Mechi]

I believe Gongaware wrote that but there's no evidence to suggest that it was even said to Murray.

They were even §$%!§$ enough to put it on paper that they plan on saying it and/or behaving like it Ivy!
In a group of 12 how many do you estimate will believe they didn't exactly do that in the following.


But yes that is one point. What went really on during those meetings??? Will AEG lawyers address it? I really think they better should.

 

[Mechi]

I'd like to address above points
Wasn't that contract get modified many times already? Maybe CM sent it to AEG because if they wanted to do more modifications to it?

Yep it was modified. But as it was found with Murrays signature I guess to him or his wishes/expectations it was the final form?!

About Prince seeing RP in the house:
Murray's attorney Valerie Wass and AEG defense attorney Marvin S. Putnam later denied outside court that the meeting Prince described ever happened.
Putnam said Prince would be recalled to the witness stand during the defense case later in the trial.
"I think as the testimony will show when he is called in our defense that's not what happened," Putnam said. "He was a 12-year-old boy who has had to endure this great tragedy."

We'll see later what testimony brings out. I have to admit it was a bit odd that Prince sometimes mixed Tohme and CM.

Yep I wanna see them address that issue. To me they do need to clarify that somehow. However maybe Prince impression of that meeting between Murray and Phillips maybe was influenced also by his father telling him he's upset about how Phillips and/or Thome were treating him. It must be very emotional for Prince, however we certainly do need to hear more about this.

I belive AEG are going to show that it is not just K behind this lawsuit, but certain fam members. They will throw some dirt on family and whether public cares or not, doesn't really matter. AEG only need to show it to jurors as it is in their hands how this lawsuit is going to end.

Yep but the jurors are 12ppl from the public to me. Surely they tried to not have 'fans' sitting there?! However I'd be carefull with throwing dirt. I'd prefer them to get those 'kids' in the stand and just show the jury how they really are. I'm not sure, are they for example allowed to address the issue of last summer? 'grannynapping'??? that's really all they need to show. Plus I think if Katherine is getting 'confused' already by such short and easy questions, she's actually playing into Putnam hands. So let her be tired and let her be confused... if he's smart enough he can use exactly that. Just get the cubs into talking... they will reveal themselves.

 

[ivy]

They were even §$%!§$ enough to put it on paper that they plan on saying it and/or behaving like it Ivy!
In a group of 12 how many do you estimate will believe they didn't exactly do that in the following.


But yes that is one point. What went really on during those meetings??? Will AEG lawyers address it? I really think they better should.

Gongaware wasn't at the meeting. He was away for a wedding. So you are hoping that someone else repeated what he wrote. Phillips writing "remove the red jacket" wasn't enough for Gongaware to remove those from TII movie. So just because Gongaware wrote "remind him" doesn't mean Phillips did it.

 

[Mechi]

Gongaware wasn't at the meeting. He was away for a wedding. So you are hoping that someone else repeated what he wrote. Phillips writing "remove the red jacket" wasn't enough for Gongaware to remove those from TII movie. So just because Gongaware wrote "remind him" doesn't mean Phillips did it.

Nope I do not hope that. I think writing that in an email to someone of the very same company means to even more behave like it and/or also saying it. Thinking it followed by writing it would be very likely followed by behaving like it.

Cuz stupidly enough there's no answering email Phillips might wrote back proving: hey PG, don't you think that's stupid and going to far cuz we didn't even hire him or check him out! He's not our problem!


I think this should be addressed.

 

[Justthefacts]

Isn't that what KJ lawyers are for?

 

[LastTear]

I wonder if the plaintiffs will rest today.

Ivy, will we able to get KJ testimony?

 

[ivy]

Ivy, will we able to get KJ testimony?

perhaps the cross - today's testimony. It'll depend on what she gets asked.

Friday's most of it was introduction and history etc. While those are nice, they don't bring much to the topic at hand. So I'm trying to get the most out of what we buy.

 

[bouee]

Gongaware wasn't at the meeting. He was away for a wedding. So you are hoping that someone else repeated what he wrote. Phillips writing "remove the red jacket" wasn't enough for Gongaware to remove those from TII movie. So just because Gongaware wrote "remind him" doesn't mean Phillips did it.

It was the mid june meeting, not june 20th. Probably june 16th, at Carolwood , the broken vase meeting.
Gongaware doesn't remember the meeting, he never said he was NOT at that mid june meeting. The wedding was for the june 20th meeting, that was a different one.
According to Phillips e mail & Kai Chase , PG WAS at the mid june meeting. It was the same meeting were Murray said he couldn't take it anymore and couldn't handle this shit" or something like that.

EDIT :

Nope I do not hope that. I think writing that in an email to someone of the very same company means to even more behave like it and/or also saying it. Thinking it followed by writing it would be very likely followed by behaving like it.

Cuz stupidly enough there's no answering email Phillips might wrote back proving: hey PG, don't you think that's stupid and going to far cuz we didn't even hire him or check him out! He's not our problem!

It was adressed as the mid june meeting (june 16th) and it was the consquence of Kenny's june 13th or 14th e mail, the one where he said that Murray had not allowed Michael to rehearsal.
That's why I don't believe PG when he says he doesn't remember that e mail.

PG doesn't remember the meeting, he said he only met CM twice : in a meeting 1st week of june and at rehearsals, Phillips doesn't remember a broken vase if I recall corectly, Frank is dead, Michael of course is dead, Murray may or may not testify, and Kai Chase testified PG was there. She said there were PG, RP, Frank, Michael and Murray, that Frank said " I don't care if you have to", that both Michael and Murray were upset, and that a vase was broken.

 

[Mechi]

Well I think as it looks right now it's all playing more into their hands... because the ppl involved are either not credible or suffering memory loss.
The glove is thrown (like we say in Germany).
I guess they first wanna see now how the others will respond... or maybe also still possible how negotiations behind the scenes are developing?!

 

[Bubs]

Yep but the jurors are 12ppl from the public to me. Surely they tried to not have 'fans' sitting there?! However I'd be carefull with throwing dirt. I'd prefer them to get those 'kids' in the stand and just show the jury how they really are. I'm not sure, are they for example allowed to address the issue of last summer? 'grannynapping'??? that's really all they need to show. Plus I think if Katherine is getting 'confused' already by such short and easy questions, she's actually playing into Putnam hands. So let her be tired and let her be confused... if he's smart enough he can use exactly that. Just get the cubs into talking... they will reveal themselves.

I never meant that they would be throwing dirt on cubs outside of the court room. I meant they will show that dirt when they call them to stand or other way, but defo in the court room.
No they are not allowed to talk about granny-napping other than KJ's health
excluded in part - allowed in part -Motion 10 - Katherine being kidnapped to Arizona
AEG cannot refer to Katherine's "kidnapping" but they can reference her trip to Arizona in the context that Katherine's health was/is deteriorating and that's why she traveled to Arizona. Judge allows this as this is relevant to Katherine's longevity and damages.

We'll see today how KJ is going to cope, considering that she lasted 10 minutes on friday.

You mentioned about negotiations behind the scenes. I was thinking if plaintiffs were offering 3rd settlement to AEG after friday?

 

[#MJforever57]

Question. If AEG loses they might want to appeal but what happens if Katherine loses, can she file for an appeal?

That a good question.

 

[Mechi]

If there will be a settlement, we'll probably never get the reasons or details.

But I guess we all agree as this is about money only and not really about answers to questions... well that's why I think negotiations behind the scenes are probably ongoing.

 

[serendipity]

I do not think Katherine is any more defensive than the many AEG employees/independent contractors who testified thus far.

Gerryevans, Passy001, hopefully I can answer both of your questions here:

The expert made a projection based on AEG’s emails and documents. The heart of BOTH projections is two shows a week and both the expert and AEG agree on that. Their projections differ based on the amount of time the tour would last and the monies amount. I do not believe the jurors will say Michael would never do two shows a week based on what he told his children and AEG planning for an extended TII tour. Based on that and the financial security Michael was trying to capture, I agree Michael would most likely continue touring.

The question is how much touring would he do? Well, AEG’s conservative estimate of 186 shows/$132M does not clear Michael’s $400M debt does it? If a reason to tour was financial stability, Michael would waste precious time under this projection. I expect AEG to be too conservative because they are a business and are in business because more monies come in than goes out. With their projection, Michael would have to do more than 186 shows OR he would have to net much more profit with other shows and/or revenue streams.

This is where the expert’s projection comes in. He includes, for example, sponsorships that AEG mentioned positively in their emails but, decided Michael did not warrant sponsorships in court due to his negative reputation and past in their view. The expert’s projection of 260 shows/$835M may seem exaggerated in monies amounts to some however, it is based on Michael NEVER touring again after those shows.

When the Rolling Stones first said they would retire, they were the hottest ticket and act around. I do not see why Michael would not have a BETTER experience (he was above top tier in a class of his own) if TII really was the LAST MJ tour. Rudely speaking, it would be the last trip on the MJ money train and I cannot believe everyone would not want to get on that train if they could. Michael would have to make enough to be financial stable to then go on and pursue film and any other venture he chose.

If 186/$132M is too stingy and 260/$835M shows is too far-fetched, the jury may look for middle ground between these two projections and may go lower or higher than that middle ground; 223 shows at $484M.

Passy001, you mentioned Michael having a past of being an unreliable business partner and cited Avram and the prince of Bahrain. AEG was aware of both of those circumstances and still contracted to partner with Michael for TII. This is why their argument in the cross examination of the expert (which already happened) was a bit lukewarm. They suggested reasons why Michael’s past and reputation would render him unsuccessful somehow AFTER the SOLD OUT 50 shows. They could not explain why they were also projecting an extended TII tour through their own emails and documents. And yes, a competent jury will not ignore these facts either.

Where does MJ's severe insomnia factors in all this? It would not have been magically cured. MJ's tours have been getting smaller with each tour and his insomnia getting worse with each tour with TII starting the propofol treatment even befor the tour began. He's also been lipsynching more with each tour - with BAD being fully live, Dangerous half lipped and HIStory almost fully lipped. That should also show something. Things were not getting any better/easier with age, they were getting worse.

It is simply not realistic to think he would have magically been able or agreed to do more touring between age 50-65 than he did in his whole solo career.

 

[#MJforever57]

That why i couldn't see Michael doing this concert he has not been on stage in 10yr and he was 50.

Maybe 15 or 20 that many he could has done. The shows was sold out already.

 

[#MJforever57]

It was odd that CM did not get Michael's sig & then fax it back. And that email about remind Murray who is paying his salary will be critical imo.

This was a contract between Murray and AEG. Their had a verbal agreement.He didn't need Michael sig that why he fax it back to AEG.

 

[ivy]

^^

Michael's signature was required for the written contract.

 

[AliCat]

@Ashtanga I don't think Michael Jackson was afraid of Thome Thome, because of Thome Thome having $5 million, after Michael Jackson died, to buy a house for Michael Jackson. Because Thome Thome was a real estate agent, Michael kept him around. Michael just didn't care to have Thome Thome paying his bills. Case in point, the faux pas (false step) of paying $2 million to Julien's Auction House.

A collection of Michael Jackson's possessions from Neverland Ranch is safe from the auctioneer's gavel now that the pop singer and Julien's Auction House have reached a settlement to their dispute over whether 2,000 items were ever intended for sale.
Specific terms were not disclosed Tuesday. But, in short, Jackson keeps his things, while Julien's keeps its exhibition, which was open to the public and originally meant to promote next week's sale.
"There was so much interest from so many of Jackson's fans that instead of putting the items in the hands of private collectors, Dr. Tohme and Julien's Auction House have made arrangements that will allow the collection to be shared with and enjoyed by Jackson's fans for many years to come," read a joint statement from Jackson spokesman Dr. Tohme R. Tohme and auction organizer Darren Julien.
Jackson's production company, MJJ Productions, sued Julien in early March, seeking to halt the sale by arguing that Jackson hadn't authorized it. A judge blocked one effort by MJJ Productions to cancel it earlier this month, and another was scheduled to hear arguments Wednesday for an injunction.
"I believe both sides are pleased with the resolution," Julien said Tuesday by telephone.
Julien has said he spent $2 million organizing the sale, which another auctioneer estimated could have fetched $12 million after its April 22 start. The exhibition in Beverly Hills costs $20 to attend, and auction catalogues — a $50 single volume and $200, five-volume boxed set — were still selling, Julien said.
The statement also said MJJ Productions and Julien's Auction House would be making a "substantial" donation to MusiCares to benefit artists in need.
Julien said all of Jackson's possessions, which the auction house took directly from the Neverland Ranch property, would be returned to the pop singer. He would not say where they would be taken.
"It's been our hopes to resolve this in the beginning, when the lawsuit was filed," Julien said. "It was in our best interest to resolve it. We continue to have great respect for Michael Jackson. ... I guess you could call it the greatest auction that never happened."
The singer has struggled financially following his arrest in 2003 on charges that he molested a 13-year-old boy. A jury acquitted him of all charges.
Last year he faced foreclosure on Neverland, the 2,500-acre (1,012-hectare) property nestled in the hills of Santa Barbara County's wine country, 120 miles (193 kilometers) northwest of Los Angeles. He was bailed out by Colony Capital, and months later transferred the deed to Neverland to another entity he partially controls.
Jackson plans a series of concerts in London in July that he has said will be his last in the British capital.
Julien has been entrusted to preside over numerous auctions of famous memorabilia. Some recent celebrity sales have included items once belonging to Ozzy Osbourne, Bob Hope and rare behind-the-scenes footage of Marilyn Monroe and Clark Gable on the set of the film "The Misfits."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...everland-ranch-article-1.362923#ixzz2Zn0OBcZI

Next came Michael Kane, as Michael Jackson's Business Manager:

Jackson lawyers questioned Phillips about his e-mail exchanges with Michael Kane -- Jackson's business manager -- when Kane asked for an advance, which was provided for in Jackson's contract with AEG Live for his "This Is It" tour.
Phillips said he was concerned that because Jackson had missed so many rehearsals, the show would not be ready for its debut in London on July 13, 2009.
"This is why it is impossible to advance any $$$," Phillips wrote to Kane on June 20, 2009. "He may, unfortunately, be in an anticipatory breach at this point."
"And I thought it couldn't get worse," Kane replied.
"It could," Phillips said. "(Show director) Kenny Ortega could quit."
Phillips' testimony that he believed Jackson was contractually obligated to attend rehearsals contradicted AEG Live Co-CEO Paul Gongware's previous testimony that Jackson was not required to rehearse.
Phillips acknowledged that by June 20, 2009, he was worried the production would not be ready on time
Kane, in an e-mail to Phillips, offered to help motivate Jackson to get to rehearsals. "Would a financial coming to Jesus speech help or add to his pressure?" Kane asked.
"It would help," Phillips replied. "At this point, we need to break through. I'm going to call his doctor to discuss."
Later that day, Phillips and other AEG Live executives met with Murray and Jackson at the singer's home. The Jackson lawyers contend at that meeting they put Murray in charge of having Jackson at rehearsals.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/showbiz/jackson-death-trial

Because of the action's of Thome Thome, Michael Jackson was out $2 million and by June 20, 2009, Michael Jackson's Business Manager, Michael Kane, was asking Randy Phillips for another advance of $1 million!

 

[ivy]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 8m
They wanted to call Rwamba today, but they said she has a medical condition (lupus) that may prevent her from coming.
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 9m
The only witnesses remaining for the Jacksons are Kenny Ortega (who needs to come back for cross) and nanny Grace Rwamba.

 

[LastTear]

So Sharon Osborne didn't have anything interesting to say after all - well, at least she got her headlines!

I doubt if they will finish today if they do call Grace.

 

[Big Apple2]

Grace probably wants no part of that witness stand. She will not only have to address what Paris said about her, but any interviews she may have done in the past.

 

[Bubs]

It certainly looks like they really want Grace on stand.
Whatever she might testify, I can only hope she doesn't throw kids or MJ under the bus while she is heard(if they get her).

 

[LastTear]

If Grace is listed as a witness, would she have given a deposition?

 

[serendipity]

Michael Jackson's mom faces cross examination in death trial
By Alan Duke, CNN
July 22, 2013 -- Updated 0533 GMT (1333 HKT)
Katherine Jackson: Michael's mother, 82, was deposed for nine hours over three days by AEG Live lawyers. As the guardian of her son's three children, she is a plaintiff in the wrongful death lawsuit against the company that promoted Michael Jackson's comeback concerts.

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Michael Jackson's mother faces more questioning Monday from a lawyer for the concert promoter she's suing in her son's death.
Katherine Jackson became "confused and tired" when AEG Live lawyer Marvin Putnam asked her "some pretty complex questions very fast" during his cross examination Friday, her attorney said.
"She was trying to answer the questions the best she could," Jackson lawyer Brian Panish said. "I think maybe she lost her temper a little bit and she tried to restrain herself in a very Christian-like way."
The judge adjourned court two hours early Friday when Jackson told her she needed to rest, but she resumes her testimony in a Los Angeles courtroom Monday morning.

I think the AP reporter tweeted that Putnam was speaking slowly so Katherine could hear/understand better. So what is Panish talking about? So typical.

 

[Tygger]

But I guess we all agree as this is about money only and not really about answers to questions... well that's why I think negotiations behind the scenes are probably ongoing.

I do not agree.

Where does MJ's severe insomnia factors in all this? It would not have been magically cured. MJ's tours have been getting smaller with each tour and his insomnia getting worse with each tour with TII starting the propofol treatment even befor the tour began. He's also been lipsynching more with each tour - with BAD being fully live, Dangerous half lipped and HIStory almost fully lipped. That should also show something. Things were not getting any better/easier with age, they were getting worse.

It is simply not realistic to think he would have magically been able or agreed to do more touring between age 50-65 than he did in his whole solo career.

Michael’s insomnia and its treatments do not figure into either the expert’s or AEG’s projections. The projections assume good health as per the coroner’s report. As for Michael lipsynching increasing during tours, I find that had more to do with the shows getting grander. I do not contribute lipsynching to age and insomnia.

Again, it may not seem realistic for some fans that Michael would tour after completing the 50 shows. However, those 50 shows would not make Michael financially stable so he would have to continue working/touring to reach that stability and be able to venture into other areas.