Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[LastTear]

@Tygger, As usual Michael is incomparable with any other artist living or dead. I don't think fans are distracted, I think right now we have an awful lot on our plate. But I do think in this instance other fans of other artists would also have differing opinions, just as we do.

But really, what does it matter if fans were distracted, their opinions on this trial will hold no weight to the outcome.

@Ivy, Im sure you must be right, for my non-medical brain it would be calloused as apposed to abscessed.

Poor Michael, I'm sorry all this is being said.

 

[Bubs]

R
Bubs, again, I posted your original question and my original answer which has no agenda except to impart information to you and you prefer the derivative answer which does not apply to your original question. If you continue with “AP, ABC7 and some articles from newspapers” you will find the information you seek. There is no need for me to fabricate testimony.

All I wanted to know where did it read that Gonga couldn't remember whether he knew about CM treating MJ's sleep issues:blink: because you posted the following:

Bubs, I find it interesting that Gongaware can remember Michael wanting the doctor with clarity and the exact same "machine" line Phillips recants consistently but, cannot remember if the doctor was treating Michael for sleep issues.

I spent long time going through Gongaware's testimony again and I couldn't find anything other than the following bit:
"Gongaware said neither Dr. Murray nor MJ talked about the treatment singer was receiving. The meeting was about nutrition, vitamin, therapy."

There was nothing else in Gonga's testimony about not remembering whether CM was treating MJ for sleep issues nor it was even asked from him. I read AP's and ABC + some articles re his testimony, so I still don't know where did you get that bit or is it indeed fabricated.

Either way, as I got the information that I was looking for, so there is no need to reply.

 

[Bubs]

It's true--just stirs it all up again. We all knew about the restitution refusal and its potential consequences, but what's upsetting (at least to me) is that we now know why she did it. We suspected it was about the money all along, because Murray had no money and AEG does. So Katherine (with the guidance no doubt of her very helpful kids) decided that even though she knew for sure after the criminal trial what Murray did (& who wasn't appalled by his recklessness) she overlooked that in favor of going after a corporation who had nothing to do with giving Michael propofol--just because they have deep pockets. Follow the money has become the Jackson family's mantra. It's the reality of her value system that I find so disturbing.

That quote follow the money brought LaToya and few other cubs to my mind. It is their mantra, and they judge people by what is going on in their own heads. They are so creedy that they think other people are as creedy as themselves.

They could have asked at least some amount from CM, just to push him into financial disstress for rest of his life and ask less from AEG, but to not ask anything from CM is repulsive and unbelievable.

 

[LastTear]

This all got me thinking about the Jacksons (disappointing) impact statement read out in the Murray trial, if AEG are found guilty/responsible will the Jacksons give another impact statement for the purposes of awarding damages, or does that not apply here?

 

[mjchris]

Prosecutor Wanted Katherine Jackson To Seek Restitution From Michael Jackson Death Doc

Posted on Jul 7, 2013 @ 8:21AM | By Jen Heger

Getty Images


Katherine Jackson was “implored” by the Deputy D.A. who successfully put Conrad Murray behind bars to seek restitution from the disgraced former physician, RadarOnline.com is exclusively reporting.

Michael Jackson’s mother refused to pursue that option though, because her attorneys in her wrongful death action against AEG Live convinced her it would jeopardize their case, a source close to the Jackson matriarch tells us.

Even though Murray was broke at the time of his conviction, former Deputy D.A. David Walgren “implored Katherine to seek restitution, mainly, to prevent him from profiting off of her son’s death in the future, the source explains.

PHOTOS: Paris Jackson Testifies In Videotaped Deposition

“Murray had already been paid for an in-depth interview that he did before being convicted, during the trial. The D.A. knew that Murray would absolutely try to make money off Michael in the future, like he did with the recording of Michael seemingly slurring his speech on his iphone that was played during the trial for jurors,” the source says.

However, in a stunning development during the scheduled restitution hearing after Murray was convicted, Walgren announced to Judge Michael Pastor that Katherine didn’t wish to pursue it.

“It absolutely gutted the D.A. because he wanted Murray to be held accountable once he was released from jail. Murray has never accepted any responsibility for Michael’s death, and blames everyone but himself,” the source says.

PHOTOS: Shocking Evidence Found In Michael Jackson’s Bedroom

If Katherine Jackson had sought restitution, “Judge Pastor certainly would have been inclined to give it to her. Neither Murray, nor his associates would have been able to profit from voice mail messages, future interviews, book deals, etc., because all of that money would go directly to Katherine,” the source explains.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...wanted-katherine-jackson-to-seek-restitution/

and why the hell is she not doing it? :mat:

 

[mjchris]

So this is a clear case of putting how much we can get from AEG before what will be Murray's attempt to more than likely blame Michael sell stories to the tabloids about his personal life and all but make a living of killing him - NICE ONE JACKSONS

Money before Michael - DISGRACEFUL

I must say reading this turns my stomach and I hope they loose.

me too.
cause for what michael and his kids lost, only in this case, thats horrible.

 

[mjchris]

I want AEG lose (they should) and the jury only reward money to Michael's children.

that will never happen. katherine will get the money, and she will give that to all the others

 

[mjchris]

It was the biggest mistake what Katherine did letting Murray off like that. Whatever happens when he gets out the blame is on her and the family. He killed her son and only will serve like 2 years out of out of 4 he got sentenced too. There is no justice in that. They chose money over Michael. AEG are not great people in my views at all but she is his mother and her actions are important to me more.

and you dont have to forget that murray have a really nice great time in 'jail'. i would not call that jail. it is paradise for him.
and i'm still waiting for only one single picture of this asshole in jail, to this day. only one! but nothing!:angry:
yeah i know, that is not common to take pictures. but hey, the paparazzis and this media bastards doing everything bad to human beings around the world. i'm sure they wont do it, cause its about michael jackson, and it would help the fans to show the world the 'bad guy'.
they were there when michael was handcufed. so why not a single picture of this murderer when he went to jail, when he enters the prison?

 

[Joyce]

David Walgren had no idea as to the depth of Katherine's greed.

 

[ConservativeMind]

I have said it once, And I will say it again.. There is a lot more to this than what we are seeing painted. There is a reason why Michael is no longer here with us and I think a lot of it has to do with the people that where around him. He was in position where he had to go back to work and there where people that wanted to make a ton of money even if the shows didn't take place.

Watch and see very closely, If it doesn't come out during this trial, It will in the near future.
Let's not paint Katherine to be 'greedy', Let's wait to see how things transpire because honestly, There is a lot more then we all know and believe me, I don't think we want to know. AEG are slime balls, And it's proven however there are other people involved that hasn't been brought to justice and I think we might see another chain of events before this is over with.

 

[LastTear]

Maybe other things will come out but until they do I will stick to the facts as I know them to be.

 

[loveforever]

I think Kenny Ortega did a interview during This Is It movie promo, he said Michael complained about his sleep problem and told him his mind was restless. I am curious to see what Kenny will say now. Personally I don't believe randy Philips and Paul Gongaware are not aware of Michael's sleep problem.

 

[serendipity]

I have said it once, And I will say it again.. There is a lot more to this than what we are seeing painted. There is a reason why Michael is no longer here with us and I think a lot of it has to do with the people that where around him. He was in position where he had to go back to work and there where people that wanted to make a ton of money even if the shows didn't take place.

Watch and see very closely, If it doesn't come out during this trial, It will in the near future.
Let's not paint Katherine to be 'greedy', Let's wait to see how things transpire because honestly, There is a lot more then we all know and believe me, I don't think we want to know. AEG are slime balls, And it's proven however there are other people involved that hasn't been brought to justice and I think we might see another chain of events before this is over with.

How about the promoters that Katherine and Joe brought in the picture? Allgood sued MJ for $40 million and then his Estate for $300 million without any shows happening or even without him signing any contract with them. How are the promoters the Jacksons brought any different than AEG? They are all the same with the same goal - to make money.

 

[serendipity]

I think Kenny Ortega did a interview during This Is It movie promo, he said Michael complained about his sleep problem and told him his mind was restless. I am curious to see what Kenny will say now. Personally I don't believe randy Philips and Paul Gongaware are not aware of Michael's sleep problem.

Sleep problem is a very broad term. We all knew MJ had a sleep problem, because he had talked about it before. But the question is how many people were aware of how severe it was and the lengths he was going to treat it? There's no evidence anyone, including his own family, were aware of that.

 

[ivy]

I do agree with Loveforever in that, if this was another artist, it would be interesting to see if fans were divided regarding a wrongful death trial of that artist. With the Elvis example, I believe his fans would not care who originated the civil trial; they would just support it being initiated. With this civil trial, I know there are fans who feel AEG is not culpable but, I am unsure if they would feel that way if the estate initiated the case instead of Michael’s mother who some fans have a distaste for. I believe AEG is culpable so, it would not matter to me if Michael's mother or the estate initiated the case.

this is something I disagree with. Most fans were interested in the criminal trial as it should be. Not many are interested in civil trials which is by nature is all about money. Not everyone sees money as justice. The same goes for Estate initiated civil trials as well. For example let's look to Lloyds lawsuit, which is about the TII insurance and all about the same matters in this case. Look and tell me how many people interested or invested in that one - a lawsuit about Michael's death and involves MJ's Estate. You will see this case brings a lot more attention just because Katherine & Jacksons involved in it.

I cannot promise jurors are not seeing or hearing things in the media. Ortega testified today he reviewed articles about the civil trial before testifying!

How is Ortega relevant here? He's a witness and he was not ordered to not read the media. Jurors are.

In the two examples you gave of the “system working,” I cannot guarantee any juror(s) did not see or hear media rumblings about either of those trials. The public just has to put their trust into the justice system and the jurors staying true to their instructions.

And they did, didn't they? The 2005 trial is the most reported trial in the history and majority of the reporting was against Michael but yet the jurors came back with a not guilty verdict. If they could do it so can any other jury. It's unrealistic to me to think that someway this current jury cannot follow the rules. There's no valid basis for such claim IMO.

 

[Justthefacts]

@Ivy, I have a question before Michael went into the ground the Jacksons were calling him an addict. It was like they could not help themselves they sued saying Michael was an addict and AEG should have known he was one so they are to blame for what happened. IMO they blame AEG more than Conrad Murray. But last week they called this expert who said there was no proof that Michael took drugs to get high or that he was addicted to anything but like lots of people with pain issues at some point became dependent. I guess I am confused out of one side of the mouth he was an addict in denial but out of the other side he was not I don&#8217;t get it. What is there point? <o></o>

 

[AliCat]

I don't trust Dr. Stuart Finklestein. He was on the "Dangerous" tour, back in 1993. He was hired to be the doctor to Michael's crew on the tour. Now, he is an addiction specialist and because of that he is now qualified to say what he is saying about Michael's butt, the scarring. Usually when scarring occurs, the living cells don't replace themselves as the tissue is dead. We have read in Michael Jackson's autopsy about his scalp, but nothing about scarring on his butt. So how can Dr. Stuart Finklestein say Michael Jackson's butt was in such a way, scarring, that Dr. Stuart Finklestein's needle would bend. Like all expert's, he's being paid, according to his expertise, to say certain things to leave an impression with the Jury.

As Paul McCartney would say, "I don't believe it"

 

[Bubs]

@Ivy, I have a question before Michael went into the ground the Jacksons were calling him an addict. It was like they could not help themselves they sued saying Michael was an addict and AEG should have known he was one so they are to blame for what happened. IMO they blame AEG more than Conrad Murray. But last week they called this expert who said there was no proof that Michael took drugs to get high or that he was addicted to anything but like lots of people with pain issues at some point became dependent. I guess I am confused out of one side of the mouth he was an addict in denial but out of the other side he was not I don&#8217;t get it. What is there point? <o></o>

Good question.
They had to say that MJ wasn't abusing drugs as thay are claiming loss of future earning which MJ would have given 40% to KJ and kids, re Ivy's summary:
Jacksons claim Michael would have earned $500 Million a year for the rest of his life and would give 40% of his earnings to Katherine and his kids. AEG states if you do the math to reach to the $40 billion number it would have required Michael to live 200 more years. ( Math : 40% of $500 M a year = $200 Million a year. $200 Million a year times 200 years gives $40 billion).

AEG also mentions that these numbers aren&#8217;t realistically possible as Michael&#8217;s popularity was down due to child molestation allegations and he hasn&#8217;t performed for years. AEG also mentions how Katherine stated during her deposition that Michael did not want to tour anymore but now also claiming lost income from future tours.(nice little tidbit)

But then again they bring in witness to testify that MJ was an addict 20 years ago, and AEG should have known it.
Just like family knew MJ was an addict 20 years ago, but that didn't stop them pestering MJ to do the tours with family.

I think they know CM killed MJ, but because he has no money, so in their creddy mind they think they have a chance to get billions from AEG.

 

[ivy]

@Ivy, I have a question before Michael went into the ground the Jacksons were calling him an addict. It was like they could not help themselves they sued saying Michael was an addict and AEG should have known he was one so they are to blame for what happened. IMO they blame AEG more than Conrad Murray. But last week they called this expert who said there was no proof that Michael took drugs to get high or that he was addicted to anything but like lots of people with pain issues at some point became dependent. I guess I am confused out of one side of the mouth he was an addict in denial but out of the other side he was not I don&#8217;t get it. What is there point? <o></o>

I guess we can agree that an addict would be someone who is seeking a high - a definition that doesn't apply to Michael.

A person with dependency issues is someone who has a medical issue - such as pain or insomnia - seeks medicine and gets dependent on it - a definition that applies to Michael.

You would see that some people don't differentiate between addiction and dependency and some might not believe the reasons for the drugs is not legit - hence classifying it as addiction rather than dependency.

As for the Jacksons claims go I don't think dependency or addiction makes a difference, their argument is Michael had a known history (at least 93) and he should be treated as he could relapse any moment and any doctor should have been seen as suspicious.

AEG would probably go to the secretive route, claiming he hid his issues well and they had no knowledge and believed him to be clean.

I'm not commenting much on the testimony but I'm seeing bits and pieces there that works against Jacksons.

 

[Annita]

Ortega is right


ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 15h

Ortega described Michael Jackson:
Musician: world class
Singer: one of a kind
Dancer: the best

 

[loveforever]

Sleep problem is a very broad term. We all knew MJ had a sleep problem, because he had talked about it before. But the question is how many people were aware of how severe it was and the lengths he was going to treat it? There's no evidence anyone, including his own family, were aware of that.

Michael said he couldn't sleep at night, his mind is restless. That's enough to me, he doesn't have to wave his medical record to everyone to show them the severity of his condition. At 50 years old, with mountain high stress, 50 shows ahead of him, being the perfectionist, being involved in every aspect of the show, how can he rehearse if he couldn't sleep? he had to sleep to have energy for the rehearsal and everything else. It's not the rocket science. I will be naive if I really believe AEG has no clue what Murray worked for with that amount of salary, Of course they would never admit it (they don't have to know the specific drug Murray gave Michael),AEG hated Klein and against Michael to see him because Michael was off after seeing him, it's bad for the rehearsal. but they love Murray because he can make Michael go to rehearsal if Michael 'slept' at night. AEG's concern is always the show $$$$$.

 

[Soundmind]

where is Dr. Stuart Finklestein's testimony ? did he testify or not ?

 

[serendipity]

Michael said he couldn't sleep at night, his mind is restless. That's enough to me, he doesn't have to wave his medical record to everyone to show them the severity of his condition. At 50 years old, with mountain high stress, 50 shows ahead of him, being the perfectionist, being involved in every aspect of the show, how can he rehearse if he couldn't sleep? he had to sleep to have energy for the rehearsal and everything else. It's not the rocket science. I will be naive if I really believe AEG has no clue what Murray worked for with that amount of salary, Of course they would never admit it (they don't have to know the specific drug Murray gave Michael),AEG hated Klein and against Michael to see him because Michael was off after seeing him, it's bad for the rehearsal. but they love Murray because he can make Michael go to rehearsal if Michael 'slept' at night. AEG's concern is always the show $$$$$.

During tours lots of people likely have a sleep problem due to traveling, jetlag, stress, adrenaline etc. Not just the artist, but dancers, musicians etc. So having a doctor treating him for sleep issues and other stuff doesn't show they we aware of anything more than that. Of course it's easy to say now in hindsight how "easy" it is to realize what was going on, but I just don't see it.

 

[serendipity]

where is Dr. Stuart Finklestein's testimony ? did he testify or not ?

Only his video deposition was played. But I think AEG's lawyer said they plan on calling him to testify when they present their side.

I have a question - Finkelstein says Karen gave him some Demerol for MJ which Alan Metzger prescribed in her name. Did Karen mention this in her testimony, cause I only remember her saying she totally refused to carry any drugs for Michael.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

Ummm what is this bout frank dileo being in "goodfellas"?....i dont remember that :scratchead:

He was, He played Paul Cicero's brother. He's seen all throughout the movie, he owned the cab stand, he's the one who shoved the Mail mans head in the stove after he sent absent letters to the young Henry's home, and he's seen later in the movie as one of the trigger men for the Tommy DeSimone hit.

I didn't know it either until it was pointed out on this site and I re-watched the movie.

Sorry, this is completely off-topic.

 

[Soundmind]

Only his video deposition was played. But I think AEG's lawyer said they plan on calling him to testify when they present their side.

I have a question - Finkelstein says Karen gave him some Demerol for MJ which Alan Metzger prescribed in her name. Did Karen mention this in her testimony, cause I only remember her saying she totally refused to carry any drugs for Michael.

where can I read what he said in the video ?

 

[ivy]

Dileo was Tuddy Cicero in Goodfellas

and a short video

 

[Justthefacts]

Goodfellas best movie ever

 

[qbee]

Only his video deposition was played. But I think AEG's lawyer said they plan on calling him to testify when they present their side.

I have a question - Finkelstein says Karen gave him some Demerol for MJ which Alan Metzger prescribed in her name. Did Karen mention this in her testimony, cause I only remember her saying she totally refused to carry any drugs for Michael.

where can I read what he said in the video ?

ABC7 Court News &#8207;@ABC7Courts 3h
Boyle: You testified about 2 ampules &#8211; what were you talking about, the ampules of Demerol?

ABC7 Court News &#8207;@ABC7Courts 3h
Dr. Finkelstein: Yes, the patch, 2 ampules of Demerol from Karen Faye, observation that MJ had a high tolerance and scarring on his buttocks

ABC7 Court News &#8207;@ABC7Courts 3h
Dr. Finkelstein: We are talking about natural opiates and synthetic opiates. The patch, the medication is absorbed through the skin.

ABC7 Court News &#8207;@ABC7Courts 3h
The doctor said the ampules were given to him by the make artist, Karen Faye. They were for MJ.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...sion)/page35?p=3864125&viewfull=1#post3864125

 

[Tygger]

Just a comment: the Zimmerman criminal trial is funded by the State (read taxpayers) so there is an interest in concluding that and other criminal trials swiftly although more complicated criminal trials run much longer. The Zimmerman trial does not compare truly to this civil trial.

Last Tear, I agree that fans have &#8220;an awful lot on our plate.&#8221; This means the focus can be scattered. Unfocused means distracted. I agree fans&#8217; distraction hold no weight on the outcome of this trial or the Robson extortion trial. However, I think it is healthy for fans to have outlets like this thread to express their thoughts and exchange ideas. I cannot truly speak for other artists&#8217; fans but, the negative backlash directed to Michael&#8217;s family particularly after his passing is interesting to me and it does factor into some views on this trial.

Bubs, many of Bouee&#8217;s posts discussed Phillips/Gongaware not remembering if the doctor was there to treat Michael&#8217;s sleep issues at length. Would you suggest that not only I fabricated this testimony but, Bouee as well?

Ivy, this is wrongful death civil trial. If AEG is found culpable, they will not do jail time like a criminal trial; the only penalty in a civil trial is money. The issue here is not the money; the issue is who the money may go to. Again, this wrongful death trial originator does play a major part in some fans view on AEG&#8217;s culpability. It is very similar to why some fans do not question AEG rejecting restitution and do not question AEG profiting from Michael&#8217;s wrongful death.

The Lloyd&#8217;s trial is not a wrongful death trial; it is a dry contract trial limited to premiums paid. It does not surprise me that fans are not as interested in a contract trial and are more focused on the wrongful death trial.

Ortega is the defense&#8217;s witness however; we do not know which side will benefit from his testimony at this moment. Suppose recent articles have colored his opinion on whom his testimony should favor? If the side that does not benefit from his testimony can tie some of his testimony to recent articles, that side would most likely pursue that in their examination of him.

Again, whether a trial goes in our favor or not, we will not be privy to what a juror does in their private time. We can only trust them to do as they have been instructed.