Murray won't be asked to pay restitution

[elusive moonwalker]

he Estate has also to protect the legacy from MJ and so even if you see it from the buisiness standpoint they have to prevent damage from MJ and his legacy.

getting compensation doesnt stop murray from talking though does it. its not like we are talking about murray being banned by the court from even talking about the case. its not a confidentiality agreement

 

[Autumn II]

getting compensation doesnt stop murray from talking though does it. its not like we are talking about murray being banned by the court from even talking about the case. its not a confidentiality agreement

Right. It's not a confidentiality agreement. What it would have done, though, is remove his motivation to make any sort of money, knowing that it would be taken from him and given as payment toward restitution. I mean, why bother if he doesn't get to keep it? Now, there is the potential (not likely, but possible) for him to get RICH slandering Michael.

 

[Annita]

getting compensation doesnt stop murray from talking though does it. its not like we are talking about murray being banned by the court from even talking about the case. its not a confidentiality agreement

That´s right but when he has to pay tenth of millions he sure he has no interest to make money with interviews or books etc. All his income goes away from him.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

That´s right but when he has to pay tenth of millions he sure he has no interest to make money with interviews or books etc. All his income goes away from him.

offically but not in reality cause nicole will just be given it. the only money they could get off him without a fight would be if he works again

 

[marebear]

I have to believe that even though his family has failed Michael beyond belief that Michael's legacy is strong enough to live on. Stronger to get passed what these people related to him are doing and whatever Murray decides to do. I don't care or want to listen to anything these people or Murray has to say again.

 

[bouee]

offically but not in reality cause nicole will just be given it. the only money they could get off him without a fight would be if he works again

or maybe they could try what the Goldman family did with OJ's book, get the rights to anything Murray would try to publish ? Well, could have tried I should say

 

[elusive moonwalker]

But i presume they could do that cause they had a wrongful death judgement against him?. murray is a small sacriface in return for the big bucks. they dont care if murray talks crap.after all the jacksons have bern talking crap about mj and getting paid for years

 

[bouee]

But i presume they could do that cause they had a wrongful death judgement against him?. murray is a small sacriface in return for the big bucks. they dont care if murray talks crap.after all the jacksons have bern talking crap about mj and getting paid for years

yes, they had a judgement against OJ, and the big difference is that they cared...

 

[Autumn II]

The difference is, O.J. was civil court, and Murray was criminal court. A large settlement like that as part of punishment is almost UNHEARD of in a criminal case. This was a GIFT Walgren and Pastor were giving to Michael's children, and the family crapped all over it.

 

[ivy]

or maybe they could try what the Goldman family did with OJ's book, get the rights to anything Murray would try to publish ? Well, could have tried I should say

But i presume they could do that cause they had a wrongful death judgement against him?. murray is a small sacriface in return for the big bucks. they dont care if murray talks crap.after all the jacksons have bern talking crap about mj and getting paid for years

yes, they had a judgement against OJ, and the big difference is that they cared...

To do what Joe needs to win his lawsuit against Murray first. There's a dismissal request in that lawsuit filed by Murray's lawyers. Oxman is being disbarred. We'll wait and see even that lawsuit survives.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Actually, I can't see what publisher in their right mind would offer Murray a deal- his mockumentary tanked alright... All it did was portray him as an abusive nutcase. Every person over the age of 40 must have thought about their own Doctor- and how awful it would be if your Doctor would publicly talk about you in this way. Murray has only sympathizers among people who won't change their opinion anyway.

Murray is a liability at this point, the rats have long jumped off the sinking ship. I can't see Murray (who apparently still thinks being a "Dr." absolves him automatically from any wrongdoing) being humble enough to sit down and write an ebook to get rich from. In the minds of many he is in the company of the murderer of John Lennon- talk about company...
He's a liability, a felon convicted of homicide whose talk about being 'kept safe in the tabernacle' isn't gonna sit well with anyone.
If I were a female interviewer I'd be thinking of his domestic violence record and wonder if he'll freak out on me if the question gets a tad too real for him.

And if I my name were Paris I actually would not want a single cent from Murray himself. (I know, I know, this judgement is supposed to keep him from making that money...)
I wouldn't even want to donate that blood money, I'd be raising these funds in another way. Murray's toast, I wouldn't want a lifelong connection to him through money. I would not want any connection to Murray, no matter in what shape, or form. None. The idea of having to run to some court house and try prove every penny Murray makes somewhere- that's too painful to even consider. Talk about eternal hell, to be connected forever to the guy who killed your father.

By the way, if I were an outsider- I'd be walking away from this thread thinking that MJ fans are hypocritical xenophobes who applaud Michael for singing "It don't matter if you're black or white"- but who ridicule someone for his accent- like some 10 year old on the playground. There's enough real stuff about Murray to be outraged, so letting out the xenophobic side remarks while celebrating Michael the humanitarian- looks really bizarre.
Money (no matter how preemptive and punitive you think this judgement would be) isn't gonna solve this.

Lastly I'm wondering if Walgreen perhaps did not receive all necessary information from the Estate.
If I were the Estate I would also wage the 300 million already made versus the expected 100 million judgement against Murray.
If I were the Estate I might actually decide that not publishing every very minute detail of the embalming (just an example) cost would be more in accordance with the person Michael.
(I have seen some bills in that regard, but they were not very detailed). I would very much weigh the "satisfaction" of getting a judgement against Murray against the very real painful details that Pastor asked for.
He wanted receipts, itemized bills.

I also see another problem- Pastor ruled that all financial matter be kept out of the trial as irrelevant to the way Michael died. I can see just some slimy lawyer filing an appeal saying- how is it fair for Pastor to rule that all financial matter be kept out of the trial- yet Pastor requests the same financial information for the restitution at the end of the trial?

I can just see TMZ going on another stupid rant against Michael, using every last detail against him- I did not forget how the media raked the dead Michael over the coals for the price of the coffin he would be buried in. Or the cost of the flowers that were delivered to Forest Lawn. ("that should be enough to get MJ through the weekend)".
Stuff like that pained me more than an autopsy picture and Murray's commentary (that I know and expect to be total BS- when Murray opens his mouth I expect delusional 'blame the victim' and everyone with a little bit of common sense will expect that from a convicted felon) together.
I can just see every Bob and their mother passing judgement at the cost of the funeral arrangements. And I wouldn't want to make every business detail public, either- I can just hear it. "Oh, Michael Jackson wanted to be paid how much???????? How much was his crypt?? Yeah, greedy rock star."


I might decide that enough information has indeed been made public. There are reasons from which I could try and understand this- especially if I don't have all the info.

The mainstream and the media go along with how the wind blows- and it seems that many people now find acceptable to decry Murray's incredibly horrifying actions- he's toast.
Imagine what sponsors think when Murray shows up on some talk show- just the projected hate mail will be enough for sponsors to jump ship= no company in their right mind who wants to project wholesome goodness will want that association. The mockumentary sure was a lesson- and the media only repeats something that sells. And Murray is BAD news. Very bad.

And if you absolutely need the OJ comparison- he found his way back into prison since people of that character do not change.

Given the fact that he is utter toast it is worth weighing pro and con. People love judging Michael on his habits, his shopping trips and anything else people green with envy love to judge him with- and right now they are flocking to see the Immortal Tour and playing video games. I'd prefer that versus giving more fodder to a mercyless press who use all these records for a renewed witch hunt against Michael. Every creditor claim has been quantified, judged, published and ridiculed- and it was Michael who got raked over the coals for it.

 

[ivy]

Lastly I'm wondering if Walgreen perhaps did not receive all necessary information from the Estate.
If I were the Estate I would also wage the 300 million already made versus the expected 100 million judgement against Murray.
If I were the Estate I might actually decide that not publishing every very minute detail of the embalming (just an example) cost would be more in accordance with the person Michael. (I have seen some bills in that regard, but they were not very detailed). I would very much weigh the "satisfaction" of getting a judgement against Murray against the very real painful details that Pastor asked for.
He wanted receipts, itemized bills.

I also see another problem- Pastor ruled that all financial matter be kept out of the trial as irrelevant to the way Michael died. I can see just some slimy lawyer filing an appeal saying- how is it fair for Pastor to rule that all financial matter be kept out of the trial- yet Pastor requests the same financial information for the restitution at the end of the trial?

I can just see TMZ going on another stupid rant against Michael, using every last detail against him- I did not forget how the media racked the dead Michael over the coals for the price of the coffin he would be entombed in.
I can just see every Bob and their mother passing judgement at the cost of the funeral arrangements. And I wouldn't want to make every business detail public, either- I can just hear it. "Oh, Michael Jackson wanted to be paid how much???????? How much was his crypt?? Yeah, greedy rock star."

I don't think this will apply because itemized funeral costs has been public through probate filings for 2 years now, that's how the TMZ and so on made the news stories about buying multiple places and the coffin price and so on. (As there was an disagreement between the executors and KJ, they had to submit itemized funeral costs and get the Probate judge approve them) They are also included at a filing by Murray's defense. If needed even I can post the copy of the itemized funeral costs. The public memorial costs has been a topic of a lawsuit in detail and Estate and AEG acknowledged and paid them as well. All of these are already public information.

The other calculation was 100 M from TII. I believe those calculations were also done before and are partially public due to Randy Phillip's statements and insurance bought from lloyds. (although the calculation details might not be known, these amounts aren't new)

I don't think these financial requests are something that they need to hide.

Furthermore Pastor ruled that defense could use the public probate filings - and they did - he just didn't allow them to argue "suicide due to debt" argument. Similarly his requests aren't that private. (If you don't mind reading 80+ pages, you can see the amount of phone bills in the KJ residence for example).


Edited to add: A lot of information is public through probate although the documents doesn't make the rounds. In probate you need to buy the hard copies and if you want to put them online you need to scan them yourself. So many of the media report the basic information from the documents- such as TMZ reporting how much money spent on which funeral element or media reporting how much money the Estate made last year- but they don't post the documents. The basic not redacted accounting filed by Estate - just tables not the detailed written report - ranges between 50 to 80 pages alone. So a lot of information is public.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

I don't think this will apply because itemized funeral costs has been public through probate filings for 2 years now, that's how the TMZ and so on made the news stories about buying multiple places and the coffin price and so on. (As there was an disagreement between the executors and KJ, they had to submit itemized funeral costs and get the Probate judge approve them) They are also included at a filing by Murray's defense. If needed even I can post the copy of the itemized funeral costs. The public memorial costs has been a topic of a lawsuit in detail and Estate and AEG acknowledged and paid them as well. All of these are already public information.

The other calculation was 100 M from TII. I believe those calculations were also done before and are partially public due to Randy Phillip's statements and insurance bought from lloyds. (although the calculation details might not be known, these amounts aren't new)

I don't think these financial requests are something that they need to hide.

Furthermore Pastor ruled that defense could use the public probate filings - and they did - he just didn't allow them to argue "suicide due to debt" argument. Similarly his requests aren't that private. (If you don't mind reading 80+ pages, you can see the amount of phone bills in the KJ residence for example).


Edited to add: A lot of information is public through probate although the documents doesn't make the rounds. In probate you need to buy the hard copies and if you want to put them online you need to scan them yourself. So many of the media report the basic information from the documents- such as TMZ reporting how much money spent on which funeral element or media reporting how much money the Estate made last year- but they don't post the documents. The basic not redacted accounting filed by Estate - just tables not the detailed written report - ranges between 50 to 80 pages alone. So a lot of information is public.

I'm aware of these documents, I read a big chunk of them, some people had scanned the 'juicy parts' and if I were the recipients of that bill, I would have asked for a lot more detail than that.

How come Walgren didn't supply the info that apparently could have been obtained?

And no, I don't think that Judge Pastor would be that easily satisfied to award 100 million Dollars in restitution by copy pasting Katherine Jackson phone bills.

People did ridicule framing costs for pictures, coffin costs etc. And it would have been another round in the mud slinging against Michael.

...
I don't think these financial requests are something that they need to hide.

...

Hiding somehow implies something less than positive. It's not about hiding something, more of not going downt that route over and over and over again.

I just think it's a funky triangle they ran into. Between the children, the estate etc. And yes, it struck as me as afterthought that the prosecution had- otherwise they would have presented at least some of that information to the judge. Pastor wasn't thrilled and made that known- I remember him barking at the prosecution for the lack of itemized bills and I remember him barking at Murray's defense who were trying to be difficult in the rescheduling for this hearing. For some reason I had a weird feeling about this the minute this matter came up.

I can just see that it is a gordian knot for more than one reason. And that there could be more than just one reason why asking for that much restitution is a slippery slope.

 

[ivy]

I'm aware of these documents, I read a big chunk of them.

How come Walgren didn't supply the info that apparently could have been obtained?

And no, I don't think that Judge Pastor would be that easily satisfied to award 100 million Dollars in restitution by copy pasting Katherine Jackson phone bills.

People did ridicule framing costs for pictures, coffin costs etc. And it would have been another round in the mud slinging against Michael.

Big chunk of them actually haven't been posted online. The funeral costs approval hasn't been posted online. That's what TMZ used back in 2009 to say that they bought 16 plots and so on. Current accounting only has it in a few lines. Walgren could have gotten the funeral costs part from the probate documents but he needed Estate's help for TII estimations. Like I said the basic for those calculations has not been public but we had Randy Phillips going to media and telling Michael could have made this much money and so on.

And I don't think this had anything to do not want to provide financials. Walgren said that family didn't want restitution. on what basis do we think that he didn't receive the information he wanted? It's not something he said. We didn't see Weitzman filing any objection or request with the court. and even if they complained Walgren could have compelled them to provide information. It's not like Estate is the party in power, the judge is. I'm following all the lawsuits that Estate involved in and they never rejected to provide financials, at most they could have asked Pastor to seal the information they provided to him. Pastor determines which documents will be posted publicly.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Big chunk of them actually haven't been posted online. The funeral costs approval hasn't been posted online. That's what TMZ used back in 2009 to say that they bought 16 plots and so on. Current accounting only has it in a few lines. Walgren could have gotten the funeral costs part from the probate documents but he needed Estate's help for TII estimations. Like I said the basic for those calculations has not been public but we had Randy Phillips going to media and telling Michael could have made this much money and so on.

And I don't think this had anything to do not want to provide financials. Walgren said that family didn't want restitution. on what basis do we think that he didn't receive the information he wanted? It's not something he said. We didn't see Weitzman filing any objection or request with the court. and even if they complained Walgren could have compelled them to provide information. It's not like Estate is the party in power, the judge is. I'm following all the lawsuits that Estate involved in and they never rejected to provide financials, at most they could have asked Pastor to seal the information they provided to him. Pastor determines which documents will be posted publicly.

Okay, which one is it?

I understand your points, actually.

At the end of the day Murray got convicted. And going by this thread alone I could see fans being the first to be outraged if a single cent would have been collected on the base of this judgement. In order to justify some of the things that have been said here people will wage the 'yeah, but with the judgement he wouldn't even make that money'.

This entire restitution matter is rightly a matter of next of kin.
And people express all this outrage over a restitution matter that isn't theirs to begin with.

Murray has been convicted and will forever carry the public stamp of having killed Michael Jackson. No matter what his delusional self will say- he is toast. Even without these 100 million in restitution Murray already has proven that he is a liability and nothing else.
And the one thing that he already did in the public- landed him the full sentence.

With or without restitution he is nothing but toast.

 

[Ramona122003]

Okay, which one is it?

I understand your points, actually.

At the end of the day Murray got convicted. And going by this thread alone I could see fans being the first to be outraged if a single cent would have been collected on the base of this judgement. In order to justify some of the things that have been said here people will wage the 'yeah, but with the judgement he wouldn't even make that money'.

Murray has been convicted and will forever carry the public stamp of having killed Michael Jackson. No matter what his delusional self will say- he is toast. Even without these 100 million in restitution Murray already has proven that he is a liability and nothing else.

With or without restitution he is nothing but toast.

The thing is by the family saying that they don't want money from Murray, but are going ahead with their lawsuit towards AEG suggest that the family don't see Murray as fully responsible. How do you think that would effect public of opinion of Murray. It can be easily argued that although Murray's carelessness killed Michael, AEG is the real party at blame because they pressure Michael and Murray to act recklessly. If the public sees it from that angle, it would be easy for layperson to feel sorry for Murray and feel him spending a couple years in jail is more than enough for punishment.

You can't really argued that the family doesn't want 'blood' money if they are in a lawsuit against another party over their loves one's death. So really, the family is more or less saying by their actions that Murray really is just the fall guy and another victim of AEG's greed. That is the real reason why fan's are upset, not because the family won't take money from Murray.

 

[ivy]

Okay, which one is it?

which one is what?

At the end of the day Murray got convicted. And going by this thread alone I could see fans being the first to be outraged if a single cent would have been collected on the base of this judgement. In order to justify some of the things that have been said here people will wage the 'yeah, but with the judgement he wouldn't even make that money'.

why would we be angry if there was a restitution and some money collected by it?

Actually I lost my grandfather years ago at a DUI. It was an IVM and the guy spent 18 months in prison. We also got the restitution but it was low as my grandfather was old and retired and not much income was lost. Yet we pushed for it and it got nothing to do with the amount you collect (my grandmother donated it all), it's all about making a point.It's all about saying that a human's life is not this cheap. It's all about feeling justice. You can ask my grandmother and she would still tell you that neither the 18 months prison sentence nor the restitution the guy was ordered to pay was enough for my grandfather's life.

Murray has been convicted and will forever carry the public stamp of having killed Michael Jackson. No matter what his delusional self will say- he is toast. Even without these 100 million in restitution Murray already has proven that he is a liability and nothing else.
And the one thing that he already did in the public- landed him the full sentence.

With or without restitution he is nothing but toast.

Well again from personal experience when the person that killed your loved one gets out of prison and you see them to live their life, you don't feel like he's toast. On the contrary you feel like your loved one's life is lost for nothing. At that time you feel everything is unfair, there's no justice and you feel there's something more needed.


I guess we'll see this in a few years when murray is out of the prison and TMZ posts his smiley pictures with his "actress" GF and kid. We'll see then if we can say restitution doesn't matter and he's toast.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

...
Actually I lost my grandfather years ago at a DUI. It was an IVM and the guy spent 18 months in prison. We also got the restitution but it was low as my grandfather was old and retired and not much income was lost. Yet we pushed for it and it got nothing to do with the amount you collect (my grandmother donated it all), it's all about making a point. It's all about saying that a human's life is not this cheap. You can ask my grandmother and she would still tell you that neither the 18 months prison sentence nor the restitution the guy was ordered to pay was enough for my grandfather's life.

Well again from personal experience when the person that killed your loved one gets out of prison and you see them to live his life, you don't feel like he's toast. On the contrary you feel like your loved one's life is lost for nothing. At that time you feel everything is unfair and you feel there's something more needed.
...

First off all, I'm sorry for the loss of your grandfather and the pain that it caused. I understand it very well. I understand losing a grandfather.


See, my family for example was stuck in another scenario. My grandfather was Ukrainian and was taken by the Germans at the end of WWII as prisoner of war. He was 17 and suffered incredibly.
After the reunification of Germany there was a new window open in which victims could file renewed claims. My grandfather remained remained somewhat heartbroken all his life, yet he was not interested in filing for the restitution the German government was offering victims. It was largely my mother who filed it for him. He filed, but if it was up to him- he didn't necessarily want to. This claim was tied directly to him and his wife (my grandfather) who had passed away a while ago), nobody else.

Having said that- I understand completely for example why your family would do that- but on the other hand I can totally understand my grandfather who felt that this would not change anything. I wished I could have talked more with him about about these things before he passed away- but he passed away. My grandfather was first and foremost the victim and he didn't want that money, he said it doesn't change anything. I never had to listen to him about how awful the Germans were etc.

I understand both sides.
Again, I sympathize with the loss your family suffered. I really mean that. :despair
If I could find the flower smily, I would post it, but I understand.

 

[ivy]

Some information - from Wize Guy

The difference between restitution and civil damages

Restitution, as noted above, is ordered by a criminal court after the offender has been found guilty. Civil damages are ordered when someone has won a lawsuit in civil court.

***Victims of crime can obtain both restitution and civil damages. A victim can sue an offender even when the offender has been ordered to pay restitution. ***Civil damages can include losses not covered by restitution, such as payment for pain and suffering, payment for intentional infliction of emotional distress, and even punitive damages-damages imposed just to punish the defendant.

Usually a civil judgment is decreased by the amount of restitution that the victim has already received for a loss.
...
Courts may order full or partial restitution

When courts order restitution, they look not only at the victim's losses but also at the offender's ability to pay. In some states, the court may reduce the total amount of restitution ordered if the offender is unlikely to be able to pay that amount. In other states, courts will order the offender to pay for the full amount of the loss, but then set a payment schedule based on the offender's finances, which may only be a minimal amount per month.
...
Collecting restitution

Collection of restitution is often limited by the offender's ability to pay. As a result, many victims wait years before they receive any restitution, and they may never receive the full amount of restitution ordered.

Collection also depends on enforcement of the court's order of restitution, either by the criminal justice system or the victim. There are many laws and procedures used to make sure the offender pays as ordered.
...
In those states with prison work programs, restitution payments are typically collected out of the wages of those programs. Some states collect restitution from state income tax refunds, prisoner accounts, lottery winnings, or damage awards from lawsuits against the prison.
...
Where the offender has not paid restitution as ordered-has "defaulted" in payment-restitution often can be collected by the same methods used to enforce other court judgments, such as attachments of assets or garnishment of wages. In some states, the victim is authorized to take these actions; in other states, enforcement is up to the prosecutor, the court, or another official.

[*note: in regards to the Murray trial, it has been reported that the Jackson family ultimately decided to withdraw the restitution request in its entirety]
...
Many states provide that restitution orders become civil judgments . This expands the ability of victims to collect restitution and also means the orders can stay in effect for many years, typically ten to twenty years. In many jurisdictions, civil judgments can be renewed, so they can stay in effect even longer. During that time, the offender's financial circumstances may change: he or she may have inherited property, won a legal judgment, or become employed. Depending on the state, the civil judgment may be enforceable immediately, or enforceable when the offender defaults on payment, or enforceable only after the criminal justice process is completed and the offender has been released from probation, prison, or parole. A victim may need to hire an attorney to help enforce the civil judgment.

[*note: in California, restitution orders are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, nor are there any statutes of limitations. **No need exists to convert restitution orders to civil judgments.]

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=38596
-----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.vcgcb.ca.gov/restitution/restitutiondefined.aspx

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

What Murray did killed that part of me that would gain anything from revenge to punishment.
I couldn't care less anymore who is collects what monies and why. It's just too late for that. I wanted to see Murray convicted. Everything else is just noise.
I see where everyone is going with that AEG lawsuit outrage- I just frankly am past the point of worrying about that. That's their business, their karma.

 

[bouee]

I think I see your point Pace, and thanks for bringing it up. I can only talk for myself, I have no idea how the kids feel about this. It's not revenge that I would want, it's a certain peace of mind. Murray has been lying and has been more than disrespectful for the past 2 and a half years. I would want to feel that I can shut him up. That I can take either the money, or the rights to whatever he would try to publish or say about Michael. There is no public interest in him today, but who knows what it's going to be like in 2, 5 or 10 years ?

What would the kids want ? They are too young to make a decision now. They might feel a certain way now, but they can and probably will see things very differently as they get older. At least, it would give them a choice. With a restitution or a judgement against Murray, they would be able to do something if they wanted to. Now, it sounds like Murray has that choice, not them.

If Murray actually does something (I think he will), they will have to make a decision about what to do : nothing, rush to the media to tell their side of the story, a lawsuit.. It would be so much easier for them if they had the possibility to stop it, like getting the rights to whatever he wants to do, getting him to sign a confidentiality agreement, etc... I feel the kids have been deprived of a very important option.

If Katherine has just given up the restitution like that, with not even an agreement from Murray to keep his mouth shut, just to protect the AEG lawsuit, then that's really really disgusting. There is a "if", because I realise we might not have all the info.

 

[Autumn II]

why would we be angry if there was a restitution and some money collected by it?

We wouldn't. Judging from the posts just in this thread, ninety-nine percent of fans WANTED the Jacksons to have restitution. I've seen no anger here, except at the Jacksons giving it UP. The purpose of the restitution was primarily to send a MESSAGE, as a deterrent for anyone else behaving so carelessly. They never would have actually seen much of that money, but given that Murray has shown no remorse, it would have been a reminder to him of what he'd done, for the rest of his life.

Actually I lost my grandfather years ago at a DUI. It was an IVM and the guy spent 18 months in prison. We also got the restitution but it was low as my grandfather was old and retired and not much income was lost. Yet we pushed for it and it got nothing to do with the amount you collect (my grandmother donated it all), it's all about making a point.It's all about saying that a human's life is not this cheap. It's all about feeling justice. You can ask my grandmother and she would still tell you that neither the 18 months prison sentence nor the restitution the guy was ordered to pay was enough for my grandfather's life.

Ivy, I'm so sorry for your loss. My mother, also, died as a result of a vehicular accident. In and around planning the funeral, dealing with insurance, etc. the family went to an ATTORNEY to inquire about restitution. It was a mechanical failure of her car that caused the accident. Sadly, we were told that there was a statute of limitations on restitution, given the age of the car. But we DID pursue it, and felt that it was normal, and right, to do so. We had to cover the funeral expenses, travel expenses, and a lot more. But more than that, the faulty brakes on the car CAUSED her death, and restitution would have been more inspiration to make sure the car manufacturer had corrected the error, and no more deaths were caused. At least inquiring about restitution was the RIGHT thing to do, on a number of levels. Too bad it wasn't possible. . .

Well again from personal experience when the person that killed your loved one gets out of prison and you see them to live their life, you don't feel like he's toast. On the contrary you feel like your loved one's life is lost for nothing. At that time you feel everything is unfair, there's no justice and you feel there's something more needed.

Yes. Money certainly can't replace a human-being, but there are REASONS why restitution would have been a good thing, and a "just" thing to do. Part of the POINT is, once Murray gets out of prison, this all will be behind him. Restitution would have been a constant reminder of what he'd done, and the grief felt by so many. Plus, the Jacksons didn't give up restitution out of some sort of good will toward Murray. They just did it so they could try for MORE money, from AEG. They did it for GREED.

I guess we'll see this in a few years when murray is out of the prison and TMZ posts his smiley pictures with his "actress" GF and kid. We'll see then if we can say restitution doesn't matter and he's toast.

I agree. I don't think we can write Murray off as "toast" just yet. Even Casey Anthony (not convicted, but surely guilty) is attempting to profit from her crime. If the restitution were to shut Murray UP, then family and fans wouldn't have to endure his nonsense on talk-shows, and his continued proclamations of innocence. At least we would have had more PEACE? It's not that uncommon for criminals in high-profile crimes to achieve some sort of "celebrity" status. I surely think Murray would have TRIED, and if the media talking-heads can interview the likes of Brian Oxman and a "Jackson family magician!," surely Murray would have found opportunities and we'd never be truly rid of him.

I can see NO reason for the Jacksons to turn down restitution, except their own greed.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I can see NO reason for the Jacksons to turn down restitution, except their own greed.

totally agree. you think they would have turned it down if there was no aeg suit or any other suit of any kind. they would have jumped at the chance of a payout from murray. but becasue its unlikely they will make big bucks off murray they are sacrificing that in order to go after AEG and screw the fact it means murray can run his mouth and get paid for it. once again its another example of the jackson family moto that the family is more important than the individual. ie michael.

 

[HumanNature2210]

......Or perhaps the Jacksons are too embarrassed to have the estate release the rumoured detailed info that the estate paid for a lot of the Jackson's expenses including several burial plot where Michael is buried, all the clothing and expenses of the Jackson charged to Michael estate, etc that make up the $1.8m cost.

Plus of course the lawsuit with AEG.

Actually, I can't see what publisher in their right mind would offer Murray a deal- his mockumentary tanked alright... All it did was portray him as an abusive nutcase. Every person over the age of 40 must have thought about their own Doctor- and how awful it would be if your Doctor would publicly talk about you in this way. Murray has only sympathizers among people who won't change their opinion anyway.

Murray is a liability at this point, the rats have long jumped off the sinking ship. I can't see Murray (who apparently still thinks being a "Dr." absolves him automatically from any wrongdoing) being humble enough to sit down and write an ebook to get rich from. In the minds of many he is in the company of the murderer of John Lennon- talk about company...
He's a liability, a felon convicted of homicide whose talk about being 'kept safe in the tabernacle' isn't gonna sit well with anyone.
If I were a female interviewer I'd be thinking of his domestic violence record and wonder if he'll freak out on me if the question gets a tad too real for him.

And if I my name were Paris I actually would not want a single cent from Murray himself. (I know, I know, this judgement is supposed to keep him from making that money...)
I wouldn't even want to donate that blood money, I'd be raising these funds in another way. Murray's toast, I wouldn't want a lifelong connection to him through money. I would not want any connection to Murray, no matter in what shape, or form. None. The idea of having to run to some court house and try prove every penny Murray makes somewhere- that's too painful to even consider. Talk about eternal hell, to be connected forever to the guy who killed your father.

By the way, if I were an outsider- I'd be walking away from this thread thinking that MJ fans are hypocritical xenophobes who applaud Michael for singing "It don't matter if you're black or white"- but who ridicule someone for his accent- like some 10 year old on the playground. There's enough real stuff about Murray to be outraged, so letting out the xenophobic side remarks while celebrating Michael the humanitarian- looks really bizarre.
Money (no matter how preemptive and punitive you think this judgement would be) isn't gonna solve this.

Lastly I'm wondering if Walgreen perhaps did not receive all necessary information from the Estate.
If I were the Estate I would also wage the 300 million already made versus the expected 100 million judgement against Murray.
If I were the Estate I might actually decide that not publishing every very minute detail of the embalming (just an example) cost would be more in accordance with the person Michael.
(I have seen some bills in that regard, but they were not very detailed). I would very much weigh the "satisfaction" of getting a judgement against Murray against the very real painful details that Pastor asked for.
He wanted receipts, itemized bills.

I also see another problem- Pastor ruled that all financial matter be kept out of the trial as irrelevant to the way Michael died. I can see just some slimy lawyer filing an appeal saying- how is it fair for Pastor to rule that all financial matter be kept out of the trial- yet Pastor requests the same financial information for the restitution at the end of the trial?

I can just see TMZ going on another stupid rant against Michael, using every last detail against him- I did not forget how the media raked the dead Michael over the coals for the price of the coffin he would be buried in. Or the cost of the flowers that were delivered to Forest Lawn. ("that should be enough to get MJ through the weekend)".
Stuff like that pained me more than an autopsy picture and Murray's commentary (that I know and expect to be total BS- when Murray opens his mouth I expect delusional 'blame the victim' and everyone with a little bit of common sense will expect that from a convicted felon) together.
I can just see every Bob and their mother passing judgement at the cost of the funeral arrangements. And I wouldn't want to make every business detail public, either- I can just hear it. "Oh, Michael Jackson wanted to be paid how much???????? How much was his crypt?? Yeah, greedy rock star."


I might decide that enough information has indeed been made public. There are reasons from which I could try and understand this- especially if I don't have all the info.

The mainstream and the media go along with how the wind blows- and it seems that many people now find acceptable to decry Murray's incredibly horrifying actions- he's toast.
Imagine what sponsors think when Murray shows up on some talk show- just the projected hate mail will be enough for sponsors to jump ship= no company in their right mind who wants to project wholesome goodness will want that association. The mockumentary sure was a lesson- and the media only repeats something that sells. And Murray is BAD news. Very bad.

And if you absolutely need the OJ comparison- he found his way back into prison since people of that character do not change.

Given the fact that he is utter toast it is worth weighing pro and con. People love judging Michael on his habits, his shopping trips and anything else people green with envy love to judge him with- and right now they are flocking to see the Immortal Tour and playing video games. I'd prefer that versus giving more fodder to a mercyless press who use all these records for a renewed witch hunt against Michael. Every creditor claim has been quantified, judged, published and ridiculed- and it was Michael who got raked over the coals for it.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Thanks ivy for posting the legal info on restitution, found it useful. I'm still puzzled why murray's restitution would potentially decrease the damages in a civil judgement (in the unlikely event that aeg lose). It should be crystal clear to judge and jury that murray would be able to pay only a tiny fraction of whatever amount is heaped on him - he's debt=ridden already, approaching retirement age, got 7 children to support, hopefully won't be able to practice being a doctor again etc etc. I would have thought this restitution would be easily presented by the jackson lawyers as 'symbolic' and wouldn't affect any awarding of civil damages. And i agree with ramona, that the symbolism of this financial penalty is incredibly important, and it's just wrong to throw it away like that. I think the jacksons took some really bad legal advice - all it's done is demonstrate once again how little they seem outraged by murray.

 

[Autumn II]

......Or perhaps the Jacksons are too embarrassed to have the estate release the rumoured detailed info that the estate paid for a lot of the Jackson's expenses including several burial plot where Michael is buried, all the clothing and expenses of the Jackson charged to Michael estate, etc that make up the $1.8m cost.

Maybe so, but WHEN have they ever been embarrassed by anything? Surely not by the fiasco that was the "tribute" concert? (Remember --- KISS?) Surely not by a contract trying to doom the children to a lifetime of servitude? Surely not by Joe's stinky-ass perfume? And not by the fake charity where the Jacksons sit on the Board of Directors, and collect a salary for it? And Jerm apparently wasn't embarrassed, either, as a spokesman for Colony Capital, that owns a percentage of N/L, when he was hawking the place as a "burial site, and Graceland type theme park" as a ploy for INCOME GENERATION. And this before Michael's body was even cold!

I think they are incapable of embarrassment, actually. This is simply a FAIL.

 

[Victory22]

Oh dear this is gonna get ugly.

That’s the game the family plays. They do these despicable things against Michael then go on Twitter and claim ignorance and innocents. If Katherine is caught red handed they claim it wasn’t her and blame it on her age and poor advisers. These people are cunning and calculating especially including KJ and you can be sure they ALWAYS know exactly what they are doing and what impact it will have before they make a move.

 

[bouee]

We wouldn't. . The purpose of the restitution was primarily to send a MESSAGE, as a deterrent for anyone else behaving so carelessly. They never would have actually seen much of that money, but given that Murray has shown no remorse, it would have been a reminder to him of what he'd done, for the rest of his life.

I totally agree with this.

To those here who are familiar with the law , do you think it's possible the Jacksons signed a confidentiality agreement with Murray in exchange for giving up the restitution ?

That's what worries me the most, because I don't believe he will keep his mouth shut if you don't make him. As I said in a previous post , I'm worried the kids will have to deal with Murray's lies and insults when he has served his sentence. At least with a restitution, they had a way to shut him up.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

That’s the game the family plays. They do these despicable things against Michael then go on Twitter and claim ignorance and innocents. If Katherine is caught red handed they claim it wasn’t her and blame it on her age and poor advisers. These people are cunning and calculating especially including KJ and you can be sure they ALWAYS know exactly what they are doing and what impact it will have before they make a move.

I don't think their actions since 25june are particularly cunning or show that they know what they are doing. I actually think the family's actions in the last 2 yrs have been inept and incompetent. Their efforts to change the executors in the will were a waste of time, the heal the world thing is just an embarrassment, global live was disastrous pr and the aeg suit looks impossible to win. It's only because the estate executors are dealing with the family with kid gloves because it's mj's mother and maybe more importantly she is guardian and has influence over ppb, the future custodians of mj's estate, that they've been allowed to run this 'interference'.

I;m not sure why everybody seems to assume that the whole famlily acts with one voice - it's perfectly possible that in this large family that they have different ideas about how to go about things. Depressingly it;s just that the end goal of all the members seems to be money.

 

[Ben]

We wouldn't. Judging from the posts just in this thread, ninety-nine percent of fans WANTED the Jacksons to have restitution. I've seen no anger here, except at the Jacksons giving it UP. The purpose of the restitution was primarily to send a MESSAGE, as a deterrent for anyone else behaving so carelessly. They never would have actually seen much of that money, but given that Murray has shown no remorse, it would have been a reminder to him of what he'd done, for the rest of his life.

I personally would have liked the kids, and the kids only, to get that money, even one symbolic cent. Like you said, as a reminder to Conrat, for life.

I think what angers me the most is not the fact the family is giving up, feels in a way they're almost "forgiving" murray; it's indeed the very reason WHY they're doing it.
Had they say they didnt want that money because, like Pace's grandfather, it wont change a thing, it wouldnt have been shocking to me.
But for f**** CASH!?!

Of course, it wont change anything, and what matters most is the conviction we got. But it's a matter of principles, of values. And once more, in a glorious way, this sad family has shown what their priorities are.


How can Michael mean so much to us, and so little to them???