MJ's religious beliefs.

[Autumn II]

I was responding above both to Victoria's comment that "technically, Prince and Paris are Jewish" and to your points about "selecting" a religion for MJ's children. I consider this point too hot to handle here, so was being as general as possible, and was going to leave it at that. But since I was asked for clarification, I hope I don't get flamed, so here it is:

I don't believe a religion should be selected for children. Until they're of age, it is not a fully voluntary, informed decision on their part, based on a solid understanding of alternative belief systems. It's too important to be anything less. I consider it religion by coercion. I believe instead that children should receive solid ethical instruction, and an overview of the world's beliefs and philosophies.

Some huge percent of the world's religious beliefs can be traced to an individual's parents. If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you're Wahhabi Muslim. In Alabama, Southern Baptist. In India: Hindu or Buddhist. And so forth. Thus each region believes passionately its religion is the true faith; it's ingrained from birth.

I believe when the day comes that religion is viewed as something to be examined thoughtfully and chosen (or rejected) freely as adults, we'll finally begin to approach a more unified, rational and loving world, that has more respect for the independent minds and creativity of its children.

I think it's too big a subject to handle in this thread; I feel very strongly on this point and don't want to see things get tense here.

We should be able to talk about pretty much anything on this board, as long as it remains respectful. Thus far, this thread is a lot more civilized than I thought it would be, soooooo?

Among Jewish people the "matrilinearity" of Judaism is not necessarily agreed upon. And yes, it has to do with ethnicity. Doesn't mean the children are or would be necessarily raised in the Jewish faith, though.

I agree with what you've said, about raising children to be able to choose. I understand that others may feel differently, though. Personally, I'm a Unitarian/Universalist. We have in our church, religious education for children. The education consists of emphasizing the need to be GOOD people, and exposure to the diversity of world-religions. Works for me, and for UU families. . . And, that's exactly what you've said. So. . good.

 

[Bo G]

I am so lost :lol:
I don't do religious chats just cause I don't want to step on toes.

We've done pretty dang well, considering! Nothing a smiley face can't handle.

 

[MichaelYoureAStud]

I like to learn about the different religions.
I might go to Church and have a set of beliefs, but I am willing to learn news things.
I'd like to think I am pretty opened minded with most things.

I also agree children should be allowed to choose their own beliefs.

 

[Bo G]

I'm a Unitarian/Universalist.

Thanks for keeping an eye on us, though Does this thread have a big blinking red light at Mod HQ?

You probably know, then, that many UUs are humanists; I've seen the percentage estimated at around 50% nationally, but declining as the Christian-leaning faction grows in influence. It varies greatly from church to church, depending on the tolerance of the pastor. They often host local humanist chapter meetings.

 

[MichaelYoureAStud]

Okay, hold up.
What is a humanist and unitarian??

 

[Autumn II]

Thanks for keeping an eye on us, though Does this thread have a big blinking red light at Mod HQ?

You probably know, then, that many UUs are humanists; I've seen the percentage estimated at around 50% nationally, but declining as the Christian-leaning faction grows in influence. It varies greatly from church to church, depending on the tolerance of the pastor. They often host local humanist chapter meetings.

No, LOL, no blinking red light at Mod HQ. Actually, though, I do agree with you that evolution is best not discussed in this thread. Too much of a hot-button topic, and not really related to Michael? GD would be the place for that.

In my UU church there are some humanists, secular and deistic, as well as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, and others. We DO try to get along and find common ground that is spiritual, ethical, loving, rational, and respectful. I'm sure the UUs are not for everyone, but for me it's a very special congregation of people. We do a lot in terms of social justice and service to the larger community, both locally and globally.

(Plus the UU jokes are extremely funny. You might have to be a UU to get them, though? LOL)

 

[Bo G]

Okay, hold up.
What is a humanist and unitarian??

Let me introduce you to my friend Wikipedia. Just type each of these words in the search box on the left. It's a great starter point for most religions and philosophies. Have fun!

 

[Autumn II]

Okay, hold up.
What is a humanist and unitarian??

I'm not, technically, a "humanist," so someone else would have to speak on that? Here is a little about UUs.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml

Unitarian Universalism is a caring, open-minded religion that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Our faith draws on many religious sources, welcoming people with different beliefs. We are united by shared values, not by creed or dogma. Our congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place.

Unitarian Universalism is a theologically diverse religion, in which members support one another in the search for truth and meaning. Individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify as Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

Tink and Bo, Thank you so much. I'm aware of, but not quite familiar with, both.

A couple of years ago I picked up Mary McCarthy's The Humanist in the Bathtub for a dollar somewhere and that led me to do a little (and I do mean "a little" =P) research on Humanism. I remember feeling on the same page with much of what I read.

Wikipedia is a blessing and a curse. I always feel compelled to click on every link within the entry, so I can easily spend hours there. I'm unemployed at the moment, so perhaps it's time I delve a little deeper into both. Thanks for the suggestions. Resume your conversation. =)

 

[Autumn II]

Sorry! This is a little digressive from the thread topic, but I couldn't resist. Pokes fun at a LOT of people, actually, including UUs. Humor is a great way to overcome anger?

Unitarian Universalist Humour Changing Light Bulbs and More

HOW MANY OF THE FOLLOWING DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB?​

Anglicans - 8 One to call the electrician and 7 to say how much they liked the old one better Charismatics - 1 Only one. Hands are already in the air Lutherans Change ?!?!?!?!?! Mennonites - 15 At least 15; 1 to change the bulb and 3 or 4 committees to approve the change... Oh, and a casserole Mormons - 5 One man to change the bulb and 4 wives to tell him how to do it Pentecostals - 10 One to change the bulb and 9 to pray against the spirit of darkness Presbyterians - None God has predestined when the lights will go on and off Roman Catholics - None They use candles Unitarians We choose not to make a statement either in favour of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey, you have found that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your personal relationship with your light bulb. Present it next month at our annual Light Bulb Sunday Service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, 3-way, long-life, and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence​

 

[MichaelYoureAStud]

Let me introduce you to my friend Wikipedia. Just type each of these words in the search box on the left. It's a great starter point for most religions and philosophies. Have fun!

:lmao: Thank you for your hard work

I'm not, technically, a "humanist," so someone else would have to speak on that? Here is a little about UUs.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml

Unitarian Universalism is a caring, open-minded religion that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Our faith draws on many religious sources, welcoming people with different beliefs. We are united by shared values, not by creed or dogma. Our congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place.

Unitarian Universalism is a theologically diverse religion, in which members support one another in the search for truth and meaning. Individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify as Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions.

Sounds really great.
I wish everyone could be that peaceful.

 

[MichaelYoureAStud]

Pentecostals - 10 One to change the bulb and 9 to pray against the spirit of darkness :lmao: (That's my Church)

 

[*~Tink~*]

I'm not, technically, a "humanist," so someone else would have to speak on that? Here is a little about UUs.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml

Unitarian Universalism is a caring, open-minded religion that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Our faith draws on many religious sources, welcoming people with different beliefs. We are united by shared values, not by creed or dogma. Our congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place.

Unitarian Universalism is a theologically diverse religion, in which members support one another in the search for truth and meaning. Individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify as Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions.

Very cool!!

This reminds me of Vivekananda and Yogananda. :yes:

 

[Bo G]

Q: What do you do when Unitarians move into your neighborhood?
A: Burn a question mark in their yard.

(said with L.O.V.E., Victoria!)

 

[*~Tink~*]

Unitarians We choose not to make a statement either in favour of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey, you have found that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your personal relationship with your light bulb. Present it next month at our annual Light Bulb Sunday Service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, 3-way, long-life, and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence

:lol: Love this!!

 

[Bo G]

Tink and Bo, Thank you so much. I'm aware of, but not quite familiar with, both.

A couple of years ago I picked up Mary McCarthy's The Humanist in the Bathtub for a dollar somewhere and that led me to do a little (and I do mean "a little" =P) research on Humanism. I remember feeling on the same page with much of what I read.

Wikipedia is a blessing and a curse. I always feel compelled to click on every link within the entry, so I can easily spend hours there. I'm unemployed at the moment, so perhaps it's time I delve a little deeper into both. Thanks for the suggestions. Resume your conversation. =)

I've also liked this site for religious/philosophy overviews: http://www.religioustolerance.org/

 

[Bo G]

...some people regard evolution as their religion. some people think science is their religion.

I challenge you to find a single person on Earth who regards evolution or science as his or her religion.

 

[*~Tink~*]

Wouldn't it be amusing if everyone starting doing this? In boardrooms, war-rooms...
I'll dash off a quick note to Hillary Clinton, who's trying to bring Israelis and Palestinians together right now.
"Uh, see here, Ambassador, is it OK if I just add this little "with L.O.V.E." postscript at the end of your counter-proposal? Standard boilerplate, you understand..."

:lmao: Yes!! *sees MJ shaking his head and getting shy*

I've certainly heard of him but haven't read him. I know he's received awards from the American Humanist Association, so they at least consider his brand of humanism friendly. The term means many things to many people, of course; I see he's called a "socialist humanist" -- not sure what that is... I come closest to the brand called "secular humanism" a la Paul Kurtz and Carl Sagan; we're the ones so demonized by evangelicals. Fromm (I learned today, thanks to you) coined one of my all-time favorite words "biophilia," which become a book by my beloved philospher/biologist E.O. Wilson.

"To Have or To Be" and "The Art of Being" are terrific jumping off places. I really really like Fromm. Now, that does not mean I agree with everything he says. But, I agree with enough to make me read more and think more, which is good to go.

I peeked at E.O. Wilson. His books look interesting, too! Biophilia is an interesting concept indeed.

 

[144000]

I challenge you to find a single person on Earth who regards evolution or science as his or her religion.

you want me to give their names? lol. i've met them. when i discussed my religion with them, they told me exactly that. that evolution was their religion.(i don't like to use the term 'religion' myself, but i'm trying to make it easier for me to post, here.)

 

[Bo G]

you want me to give their names? lol. i've met them.

Link, please. And I trust you'll be fair and not post to someone being facetious, but to someone who genuinely regards science or evolution as their religion.

 

[144000]

Link, please. And I trust you'll be fair and not post to someone being facetious, but to someone who genuinely regards science or evolution as their religion.

first of all, i met them in real life..not on the internet. secondly, how can you judge when someone is being facetious? i meant what i said when i was talking to them...and i trust they meant what they said. look...i'm not shaken by someone who disagrees with me...why are you seemingly upset over someone who you fear is facetious? you believe what you believe...why would you be affected by what someone else says, if you're ok with what you believe?

you know how many people loved winning shouting matches with Michael, because they seemed threatened by Michael's ability to not feel the need to get the last word, and still be solid, within himself about what he believes, because they disagreed with him? too many to count.

 

[yaazgurl]

Yeah, I saw that comma and wasn't sure. Thanks for the smiley; here's one back atcha

Technically, the only way to say conclusively that Michael was a Christian was to know whether he believed that Jesus was God. Without a quote from him indicating this, or at least regular attendance to a Christian service, (after his JW stint), I'll remain skeptical.



Since when do we talk about things that matter on an MJ board?!

(But unfortunately, the truth is it does matter to a lot of people who claim dead celebrities as their own to advance their religion, and I consistently object).

Michael believed that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Whether or not he was active in attending church meetings I do not know. It seems like he incorporated some new age practices which go against the bible but in the Ebony interview he definitely acknowledges his belief in Jehovah as God.

 

[144000]

Michael believed that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Whether or not he was active in attending church meetings I do not know. It seems like he incorporated some new age practices which go against the bible but in the Ebony interview he definitely acknowledges his belief in Jehovah as God.

here is another shocker....the Bible seems to have a problem with 'regular church meetings' as there is scripture that says that 'God does not dwell in temples built with men's hands'. it seems he has spoken with Andrae Crouch and others....so...meeting with or talking to people who believed as he did, wasn't something he avoided...the Bible does have scriptures about communicating with fellow believers..but not necessarily in a building at a regular set time. nothing against it, but nothing damming people who did it, either. MJ found it logistically impossible to attend a regular service on a regular day of the week, because of his fame. and God doesn't damn someone for being famous....at least i found nothing in any scripture that says so..

 

[Bo G]

Michael believed that Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son. Whether or not he was active in attending church meetings I do not know. It seems like he incorporated some new age practices which go against the bible but in the Ebony interview he definitely acknowledges his belief in Jehovah as God.

Can we get a link from you, please, with his stating that Jesus is the son of God or Jehovah? That's a key question here, so a lot of us here will want the actual quote to be sure. We also need the date, because we know already he would have said this in his Jehova's Witness days. We're discussing his final beliefs. Thanks.

Ebony is searchable in Google Books.

 

[144000]

Can we get a link from you, please, with his stating that Jesus is the son of God or Jehovah? That's a key question here, so a lot of us here will want the actual quote to be sure. We also need the date, because we know already he would have said this in his Jehova's Witness days. We're discussing his final beliefs. Thanks.

Ebony is searchable in Google Books.

i think the Bible, at least, has scriptures in it, that don't require someone to quote aloud whether or not Jesus is a diety or the son of a diety under certain circumstances,(not all, but certain circumstances) to determine their faith. at least that's how those scriptures read. i purposely will not link to those scriptures, for fear that people might think i'm picking and choosing scriptures to promote my own personal agenda, or something...i will say that they are in the King James Bible...so...if someone so chooses to peruse..they can..and they can get the full context...

IMO i think this is due to the Bible preventing anyone from making a final judgement of anyone else's faith...which IMO is clever in a good way..

in other words...it's meant to keep the peace and deter human judgement..IMO

 

[Bo G]

first of all, i met them in real life..not on the internet.

Sorry... just assumed you understood I meant a linked quote we could read for ourselves. I didn't expect it would be someone you met.

secondly, how can you judge when someone is being facetious? i meant what i said when i was talking to them...and i trust they meant what they said.

People say facetious things all the time. Most of us know how to recognize it; it's really not possible to explain how. It involves experience, context and knowing the person.

I've been known to claim as my religion sex, rock and roll, pizza, birds, wildflowers, and, yes, science. I've called various rockstars God. And movie directors, and scientists, and, yes, Darwin. I can get very enthusiastic , as you can tell. But not one of my friends actually thinks I literally worship or find some special divinity in any of these.

look...i'm not shaken by someone who disagrees with me...why are you seemingly upset over someone who you fear is facetious?

I'm not upset, sweetie. But you know, is being shaken by disagreement such a bad thing? For example, until a few months ago I thought Michael Joseph Jackson was probably a pedophile. [the readers gasp -- yes I confess.] I listened to others and was shaken by disagreement. I was convinced... not by people insisting they were right and I should just believe them, but by people who provided links to the evidence.

I was deeply shaken, truly angry, to learn how much I'd been misled by the media, how much MJ Joy I'd been robbed of during the years I turned away.

l you believe what you believe...why would you be affected by what someone else says, if you're ok with what you believe?

I only believe what I think is true. So I'm always open to being affected by what someone else says; they may have knowledge I don't. Otherwise, how will I know if what I believe isn't true?

But there's not enough time to listen to everyone, so a famous person said "It's good to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."

 

[Autumn II]

Q: What do you do when Unitarians move into your neighborhood?
A: Burn a question mark in their yard.

(said with L.O.V.E., Victoria!)

Received with L.O.V.E. Made me spit out my drink! Ha ha ha ha ha ha HAAAA ha ha ha. :clapping::clapping::clapping:

Thanks. Needed that.

Vic

 

[144000]

Sorry... just assumed you understood I meant a linked quote we could read for ourselves. I didn't expect it would be someone you met.
People say facetious things all the time. Most of us know how to recognize it; it's really not possible to explain how. It involves experience, context and knowing the person.

I've been known to claim as my religion sex, rock and roll, pizza, birds, wildflowers, and, yes, science. I've called various rockstars God. And movie directors, and scientists, and, yes, Darwin. I can get very enthusiastic , as you can tell. But not one of my friends actually thinks I literally worship or find some special divinity in any of these.
I'm not upset, sweetie. But you know, is being shaken by disagreement such a bad thing? For example, until a few months ago I thought Michael Joseph Jackson was probably a pedophile. [the readers gasp -- yes I confess.] I listened to others and was shaken by disagreement. I was convinced... not by people insisting they were right and I should just believe them, but by people who provided links to the evidence.

I was deeply shaken, truly angry, to learn how much I'd been misled by the media, how much MJ Joy I'd been robbed of during the years I turned away.
I only believe what I think is true. So I'm always open to being affected by what someone else says; they may have knowledge I don't. Otherwise, how will I know if what I believe isn't true?

But there's not enough time to listen to everyone, so a famous person said "It's good to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.

lol...well..in this world, you'll always find someone who will say that no one knows how open a mind needs to be before there is brain slippage...

i guess i'm coming from a place where the media never shook my belief about Michael during the trial. it's not a brag...it's just the way it was. i knew he was innocent. they couldn't rob me of my joy..

so....the media was all dead serious...but...i treated them as if they were facetious.

but it seems that you are looking at the word 'worship' (and a religious believer) in a lesser way than you are looking at 'what you see as true('and science.) again, this should not be about seeing a person with religious beliefs as someone lesser than someone who sees science as you do. as you said you didn't want someone to see a non theist as less smart than a theist.

a theist sees theirs as true, and you see science as true. we are still talking about two equal people here.

and on the subject of facetious..you said you can tell when someone is, but you had a hard time explaining it...

yet...you said that you want to be subject to be affected by what others say, that they may have knowledge...you said the media had you fooled at first about Michael...

how do you reconcile the two?

that's why i do take people at their word about the things they say... whether or not they are serious is on them...

when it's all said and done...do we know everything in a person's mind? you just proved that with your post.

so that brings me to how i knew MJ was innocent...

by observing his life and spiritual walk..you're bound by a conviction that scares you to death.

 

[Autumn II]

There's a reason why I included some humor in my posts. It's hard to be angry if you're laughing, and this is a potentially divisive topic? But, to return to the theme of the thread, I never heard anyone say Michael was a UU. (He might have enjoyed it, though?)

Here's just one more UU joke, and then I really AM done. . .

A Catholic was explaining to a Unitarian Universalist friend how dogma was formulated in the Catholic Church. "First it is debated by the Church authorities. Then, when the debate is ended, whatever was decided upon is declared dogma by the Pope."

"It's pretty much the same with us," said the Unitarian Universalist.

"I thought you didn't have dogma?"

"That's because no debate among Unitarian Universalists ever ends!"

 

[Bo G]

then I really AM done. . .no debate among Unitarian Universalists ever ends!"[/I]

Same with humanists. Lord we love to talk. (Really liked your lightbulb joke.) But no, sorry, you're not done yet... we must give equal time to Catholics, who've been talked about a lot in this thread: