Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Apparently some of you think major record companies purchase material, the material of a deceased artist, and don't have it tested, at all.



Is it possible that the vocals we hear on the album are not identical to the material that Sony/the Estate provided to the testers? As no actual evidence has been provided, it is difficult to understand how the testing process was executed. Putting this issue aside, I go back to what I said a few posts ago. The lead vocals on these tracks as we hear them are absolutely not 100% Michael despite the claim to the contrary.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sony is a business. Of course every decision they made is a business decision, not artistic decision.

I'm no fan of Sony, but I don't think this is right. While they are a business, they publish music, and it being of artistic value matters to them too. I work in a similar business and while making a profit is of course what a business does, artistical or intellectual quality is still the main ingredient for most businesses who push the arts. The quality solidifies the company's credibility and therefore hopefully ensures future quality products. This is the exact reason why I believe that IF these vocals are fake, Sony was duped as well. They would never risk their credibility like this. If the vocals are fake only very few will know about it: the faker and the Cascio's. Teddy, other producers and Sony would be guilable but not fraudulous themselves, not consciously at least.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I have 3 factors that i put into my reasoning (by the way i originally thought the tracks were fake and later changed my mind upon thinking about it)

1. Common Sense (It's a Michael Jackson album)
2. No one would benefit from the transaction (As Sony would not have spent money on something that was fake, i assume they had it analysed first so that they had insurance that their money wasn't being wasted)
3. Accepting that there was no proof otherwise and having gone down a list of Socratic possibilities came to the conclusion i am at.


Your theory will depend upon the questions you ask. So if you ask wrong questions, your answers will lead you to th wrong conclusion. Your three factors aren't complete, hence they fit your theory. But if you add some further info to your factors, there'll be more possible theories than what you suggested. Thus if I complete the undeniable info it would read something like this:

1. Common sense (It's a Michael Jackson album assembled in complete absence of the main concerned: Michael Jackson)

2. The one who would benefit is the one who could sell more fakes on future albums (before the buyer analyses it (SONY), the seller would most probably took that precaution before selling the tracks in order to fool the buyer just in case this latter doubts and decides to analyses them)

3. The proof is:

a) those particular three tracks were questioned

b) time, energy, money was spent to (half*)analyse those tracks (*without comparing them to Jason's voice, but only to Michael's, similarities are clear, but if they compared them to Jason's vocals the similarities would have been even clearer)

c) Breaking News was obviously streamed to see the public's reaction --it wasn't very good (but too late, the CDs were already done, packed and most probably ready to be shipped).

d) Teddy Riley and Eddie Cascio both failed to prove it is Michael on Oprah, despite the fact that Eddie possessed several home videos and photographs with Michel in them.

e) Taryll claims that every single trace was destroyed (traces being all destroyed are rather unbelievable than believable)

f) On some places the singer's accent is drastically different from Michael's

g) The voice tone, the timbre, the husk are closer to a sound-alike than to MJ

i) The lyrics are extremely either poor in meaning, contain too much stereotype or inappropriate compared to all what Michael has been fighting for in his songs.

j) Not a single demo that we possess from "the Jackson 5" era to "This is it" movie does not sound (including 2000 Watts & Shout) as different as the Cascio tracks.
etc., etc.

What other proof is needed?


How do you explain Milli Vanilli?



Why do you think Sony wouldn't benefit from putting the Cascio tracks on the album? This is exactly the reason such low quality questionable tracks are on the ablum - to make a profit. Instead of including 10 genuine Michael Jackson songs, Sony put three sub-par songs on this album and save three genuine songs for future release. It works for Sony. The album is doing well for a posthumous release. The questionable tracks open the door for more questionable tracks to be released in the future. Songs with partial Michael Jackson vocals out-number songs with complete Michael Jackson vocals. Putting the Cascio tracks on the ablum seems to be an investment that pays off.



Could you offer us any substantial proof that back up your conclusion?

Completely agree love is magical
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok, I know that some of us have very strong opinions on this matter. But there is simply no reason to let our posts devolve into being so crass.

Also, please watch the innuendo of your posts. Please do not be rude by implication. That is so not necessary.

Thank you.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Ok, I know that some of us have very strong opinions on this matter. But there is simply no reason to let our posts devolve into being so crass.

Also, please watch the innuendo of your posts. Please do not be rude by implication. That is so not necessary.

Thank you.

Ok, but leave us some space to be time after time sarcastic as well, we need that too sometimes.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Also, please watch the innuendo of your posts. Please do not be rude by implication. That is so not necessary.

Thanks, girl, for acknowledging this certain aspect. :D
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Larry, could you tell me how your common sense explains the Milli Vanilli scandal. Common sense told you that Milli Vanilli supposed to be the vocalists on their albums. Common sense told you that Milli's record label wouldn't lie. But, reality was?

The Cascio tracks were put onto the album because they were best suited for it. For what may I ask? For saving genuine Michael Jackson songs for future releases I'm afraid. Sony is a business. Of course every decision they made is a business decision, not artistic decision. Does Sony care whether Michael Jackson really worked on those songs? No, Sony doesn't. What Sony cares about is sales. As long as there are enough people who believe the vocals are Michael Jackson's and buy the albums, Sony is doing okay.


[youtube]jISgdu4bn-s&feature=related[/youtube]
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I'm no fan of Sony, but I don't think this is right. While they are a business, they publish music, and it being of artistic value matters to them too. I work in a similar business and while making a profit is of course what a business does, artistical or intellectual quality is still the main ingredient for most businesses who push the arts. The quality solidifies the company's credibility and therefore hopefully ensures future quality products. This is the exact reason why I believe that IF these vocals are fake, Sony was duped as well. They would never risk their credibility like this. If the vocals are fake only very few will know about it: the faker and the Cascio's. Teddy, other producers and Sony would be guilable but not fraudulous themselves, not consciously at least.

Sony is in a business to release music. Sony Music's revenue is driven by album sales. An album of high artistic value may not sell well. We had a very interesting discussion on this very topic a few pages back. Sony and all other major music labels want to sell albums. They focus more on commercial value than on promoting art, preserving an artist legacy or developing talents. Record labels are no friends of artists.

I guess we can all agree that some of the best selling albums are of low artistic qualtiy. Are Britney Spears and Kesha latest artistic breakthrough? But, their record labels have no problem in promoting them.

Speaking of Sony's handling of MICHAEL, I honestly don't think artistic quality is Sony's concern, at least not top of Sony's priority. Vocal authenticity issue aside, Is MICHAEL really the best it can be? Is the promotion campaign cohesive? Is the album artwork and booklet carefully done? Are the songs on MICHAEL really of the best quality they can find?

The release of this album is just another very calculated attempt to cash-in.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Sony is in a business to release music. Sony Music's revenue is driven by album sales. An album of high artistic value may not sell well. We had a very interesting discussion on this very topic a few pages back. Sony and all other major music labels want to sell albums. They focus more on commercial value than on promoting art, preserving an artist legacy or developing talents. Record labels are no friends of artists.

I guess we can all agree that some of the best selling albums are of low artistic qualtiy. Are Britney Spears and Kesha latest artistic breakthrough? But, their record labels have no problem in promoting them.

Speaking of Sony's handling of MICHAEL, I honestly don't think artistic quality is Sony's concern, at least not top of Sony's priority. Vocal authenticity issue aside, Is MICHAEL really the best it can be? Is the promotion campaign cohesive? Is the album artwork and booklet carefully done? Are the songs on MICHAEL really of the best quality they can find?

The release of this album is just another very calculated attempt to cash-in.

It's a fact that much crap music is published, to cash-in mainly. But I never thought MJ fitted this category. While selling more than anyone else, the quality was always undisputable. This is best for a record company: quality that sells. You can compare it to (for argument's sake) J.K. Rowling (being like MJ) versus Dan Brown (being like Britney). A publishing house with any standards will be happier to publish Potter books, because it gains the house both financial and cultural gain. It's not worth it for Sony to degrade MJ to a lesser status than he had (turn him into a Britney) by putting fakes out there and just cash in when forgetting about the artistical value. Again, I think, if they are fakes, Sony wasn't aware of this. They have too much to lose. Not just MJ's artistry is on the line, their credibility as a publisher of music would be too.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

How do you explain Milli Vanilli?

actually the case of milli vanilli included a serious con artist. Their producer used to form groups/bands that consisted of good vocalists and good looking people with not so good voices. While the good vocalist used to sing the songs the good looking people were used to be portrayed as the lead. as far as I know he did the same thing with at least 3 groups.

some of those things were "legally fine" as every singer was credited and only people acted like they were the lead vocalists without any claims about their vocals being the lead.

Arista signed them unknowing the con act and attributed the vocals to the "fake milli vanilli", (initially in germany they were never credited with vocals and referred to as "dancers"). With this attribution the people who sang the actual vocals and later the con artist producer confirmed the fraud and the lawsuits happened. Another significant fact was that "the fake milli vanilli" actually didn't sing a single note on the albums - it made it total impostor / fake / fraud. (it would be totally different - even in some cases legally fine - if they sang some stuff and other vocals were also credited : there's nothing wrong with additional supporting vocals if it's properly credited).

Plus Milli Vanilli had been questionable for some time before the revelation as they never performed live. However people thought this was okay due to "enhanced" vocals trend used that time on many boy/girl pop bands. (many bands were studio wonders that didn't have the ability to sing live without the enhancement of their vocals)

edit: and going back to your question specifically I'm curious - how many bands/artists like Milli Vanilli can you think/know of?

Edit 2:

Larry, could you tell me how your common sense explains the Milli Vanilli scandal. Common sense told you that Milli Vanilli supposed to be the vocalists on their albums. Common sense told you that Milli's record label wouldn't lie. But, reality was?

Arista didn't lie, they didn't know the con act.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's a fact that much crap music is published, to cash-in mainly. But I never thought MJ fitted this category. While selling more than anyone else, the quality was always undisputable. This is best for a record company: quality that sells. You can compare it to (for argument's sake) J.K. Rowling (being like MJ) versus Dan Brown (being like Britney). A publishing house with any standards will be happier to publish Potter books, because it gains the house both financial and cultural gain. It's not worth it for Sony to degrade MJ to a lesser status than he had (turn him into a Britney) by putting fakes out there and just cash in when forgetting about the artistical value. Again, I think, if they are fakes, Sony wasn't aware of this. They have too much to lose. Not just MJ's artistry is on the line, their credibility as a publisher of music would be too.

Tbh, and it kills me to say this, the industry is so bad nowadays, i think Michael Jackson himself would struggle to get a record deal.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

In addition to a lawsuit to force Sony/the Estate to provide more evidence concerning the authenticity of the songs, I would love to see an independent analysis of the lead vocals as they appear on the album. I suppose this would be much cheaper and easier to execute than a lawsuit? Perhaps, there are few professionals out there with some extra time on their hands who could be of service? Given the controversy, I am surprised this has not already been done by someone (if technically possible).
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

actually the case of milli vanilli included a serious con artist. Their producer used to form groups/bands that consisted of good vocalists and good looking people with not so good voices. While the good vocalist used to sing the songs the good looking people were used to be portrayed as the lead. as far as I know he did the same thing with at least 3 groups.

some of those things were "legally fine" as every singer was credited and only people acted like they were the lead vocalists without any claims about their vocals being the lead.

Arista signed them unknowing the con act and attributed the vocals to the "fake milli vanilli", (initially in germany they were never credited with vocals and referred to as "dancers"). With this attribution the people who sang the actual vocals and later the con artist producer confirmed the fraud and the lawsuits happened. Another significant fact was that "the fake milli vanilli" actually didn't sing a single note on the albums - it made it total impostor / fake / fraud. (it would be totally different - even in some cases legally fine - if they sang some stuff and other vocals were also credited : there's nothing wrong with additional supporting vocals if it's properly credited).

Plus Milli Vanilli had been questionable for some time before the revelation as they never performed live. However people thought this was okay due to "enhanced" vocals trend used that time on many boy/girl pop bands. (many bands were studio wonders that didn't have the ability to sing live without the enhancement of their vocals)

edit: and going back to your question specifically I'm curious - how many bands/artists like Milli Vanilli can you think/know of?


Thanks Ivy for the additional infor on Milli Vanilli. I brought Milli up in responding to Larry's post regarding common sense.

Yes, common sense is saying that Michael Jackson should be the lead vocalist on all songs on a Michael Jackson album. The same thing can be said to a Milli Vanilli album!

What I'm saying is that common sense does not work 100% of the time.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thanks Ivy for the additional infor on Milli Vanilli. I brought Milli up in responding to Larry's post regarding common sense.

Yes, common sense is saying that Michael Jackson should be the lead vocalist on all songs on a Michael Jackson album. The same thing can be said to a Milli Vanilli album!

What I'm saying is that common sense does not work 100% of the time.

But we have a little more than common sense here.

- Like I said Milli Vanilli had a producer who had the history of con of vocals.
- Can you show a similar history for Cascio/ Porte/ Sony/ Riley etc?

- Arista got a finished album recorded in Munich and released it without checking as they probably didn't know about the producer or had any reason to be suspicious.
- Sony / estate claims that they checked the vocals for authenticity.

so in one hand you have an album produced by a con artist that was released with no checking and on the other hand you have an album/songs produced by people that has a clean history and that has been checked.

I don't know if you saw my last edit but Arista wasn't aware of the con act when they released the album. (yet they were kept responsible as they didn't show due diligence and even unwillingly and without malice became part to misrepresentation / fraud).

and

I'm curious - how many bands/artists like Milli Vanilli can you think/know of?
 
ivy;3235994 said:
actually the case of milli vanilli included a serious con artist. Their producer used to form groups/bands that consisted of good vocalists and good looking people with not so good voices. While the good vocalist used to sing the songs the good looking people were used to be portrayed as the lead. as far as I know he did the same thing with at least 3 groups.

some of those things were "legally fine" as every singer was credited and only people acted like they were the lead vocalists without any claims about their vocals being the lead.

Arista signed them unknowing the con act and attributed the vocals to the "fake milli vanilli", (initially in germany they were never credited with vocals and referred to as "dancers"). With this attribution the people who sang the actual vocals and later the con artist producer confirmed the fraud and the lawsuits happened. Another significant fact was that "the fake milli vanilli" actually didn't sing a single note on the albums - it made it total impostor / fake / fraud. (it would be totally different - even in some cases legally fine - if they sang some stuff and other vocals were also credited : there's nothing wrong with additional supporting vocals if it's properly credited).

Plus Milli Vanilli had been questionable for some time before the revelation as they never performed live. However people thought this was okay due to "enhanced" vocals trend used that time on many boy/girl pop bands. (many bands were studio wonders that didn't have the ability to sing live without the enhancement of their vocals)

edit: and going back to your question specifically I'm curious - how many bands/artists like Milli Vanilli can you think/know of?

Edit 2:



Arista didn't lie, they didn't know the con act.

Here is another example of fraud:

source wikipedia (for further info read the full article on the same website): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Bertrand

Plastic Bertrand (born Roger Allen François Jouret, 24 February 1954, Brussels<SUP id=cite_ref-0 class=reference>[1]</SUP>) is a Belgian musician, songwriter, producer, editor and television presenter, best known for the 1977 international hit single "Ça plane pour moi".

[...]

Legal issues

In 2010, an expert appointed by a court stated that the voice of Lou Deprijck, the composer/producer of "Ça plane pour moi," on a record from 2006 is the same voice as on the original 1977 recording. "Today it appears from the report of the experts that the voice of 'Ça plane pour moi' is Lou Deprijck's voice," stated the newspaper La Dernière Heure on Monday, July 26, 2010. Plastic Bertrand previously disputed the allegation, but on July 28, 2010 the singer finally revealed that he is indeed not the singer of any of the songs in the first four albums released under the name Plastic Bertrand.


Discography
[edit] Albums

[edit] Singles

  • 1975 "New Promotion/You'll Be The One"
  • 1977 "Ça plane pour moi/Pogo Pogo"
  • 1978 "Bambino/Le Petit Tortillard"
  • 1978 "Super Cool/Affection"
  • 1978 "Sha La La La Lee/Naif Song"
  • 1978 "Tout petit la planète/C'est le Rock'N'Roll"
  • 1979 "Tout petit la planète /J'te fais un plan/Hit 87"
  • 1979 "Sentimentale moi/Quais Quais Quais Quais"
  • 1979 "Sentimental me/Sentimentale moi"
  • 1979 "Le Monde est merveilleux/ J'te fais un plan "
  • 1979 "Sans Amour/Plastic Boy"
  • 1979 "Téléphone à téléphone mon bijou/Stop ou encore"
  • 1980 "Téléphone à téléphone mon bijou /Kangourou Kangourou"
  • 1980 "Hula Hoop/Amoureux fou de toi"
  • 1981 "Jaques Cousteau/Paradis"
  • 1981 "La Star à pécole/Baby Doll/Coeur D'acier"
  • 1982 "L'amour Ok/New York/Coeur d'acier/Stop ou encore"
  • 1982 "Ping Pong/Coeur D'Acier"
  • 1982 "Duo Avec Nathalie"
  • 1983 "Arret d'autobus/Mon Nez, mon nez"
  • 1983 "Chat/Fou des Fifties"
  • 1983 "Major Tom/Miss Italie"
  • 1983 "Gueule d'amour/Down Town"
  • 1985 "Astérix est Là/Le Secret du druide
  • 1986 "Je l'jure/La Fille du premier rang"
  • 1986 "Let's Slow Again/Toujours plus haut"
  • 1987 "Amour, Amour"
  • 1988 "Démente a la menthe"
  • 1989 "Slave To The Beat/Plastiiic Acid Mix"
  • 1990 "Sex Tabou"
  • 1991 "House Machine/Club Control feat. Plastic Bertrand"
  • 1994 "Les Joueurs de Tchik Tchik"
  • 2002 "Play Boy/Canape"
  • 2003 "Plastcubration/Tous, Touchez-vous"
  • 2005 "Machine/Remixes"
<SUP id=cite_ref-1 class=reference>http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/#cite_note-1</SUP>
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Here is another example of fraud:

so 2 in the last 40 years ? (both done by producers and not the record companies and can be identified by experts)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

so 2 in the last 40 years ?

2 that I can think of right now. 2 that admitted fraud. 2 that indicate that fraud IS doable.

2 too many!

p.s. Now that I think, here is another not credited one: Michael Jackson as backing vocals on this song (in order to avoid legal issues with his company. That makes it three so far:

source: wikipedia

The album The Simpsons Sing the Blues was released in September 1990. The first single from it was the pop rap song "Do the Bartman", performed by Bart Simpson's voice actor Nancy Cartwright and released on November 20, 1990.[1] Rumors began spreading in the summer of 1990 that Michael Jackson would write a song for Bart on the album. This song was reported early on to be "Do the Bartman", but executive producer James L. Brooks issued a press release in September 1990 apologizing for the misunderstanding and stating that song was actually written by one of Jackson's friends, Bryan Loren.[2]
However, The Simpsons creator Matt Groening revealed during an appearance at the 1998 World Animation Celebration convention in Pasadena, California that "Do the Bartman" was actually co-written and produced by Jackson,[1][3] but he could not receive credit for it because he was under contract to another record label.[4] Groening told a crowd at the convention that had gathered for a "The Simpsons tribute" that it had "always [been] amazing to me that no one ever found out that Michael Jackson wrote that song. [...] He was a big fan of the show."[5]
Jackson was a fan of The Simpsons, especially Bart,[6] and had called the producers one night offering to write Bart a number one single and do a guest spot on the show, which is how "Do the Bartman" came about.[7] Jackson eventually guest-starred in the episode "Stark Raving Dad" (season three, 1991) under the pseudonym John Jay Smith.[8] He also wrote a song for that episode called "Happy Birthday Lisa", which was later included in the album Songs in the Key of Springfield.[9] It has been reported that Jackson also provided background vocals for "Do the Bartman".[10]



see video here
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9hrxz_bart-simpson-do-the-bartman_shortfilms
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

2 that I can think of right now. 2 that admitted fraud. 2 that indicate that fraud IS doable.

2 too many!

you consider this "doable"? Or is it actually something that failed miserably?

Those examples show me that
1 - fraud one way or another becomes known (someone mentions it)
2- experts are perfectly capable of identifying fraud
3- record companies are not the ones that start the fraud
4- even record companies could be unwilling without malice participants in such acts they can face financial / legal consequences therefore they have all the more reason to do legit / high quality authentication processes.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

you consider this "doable"? Or is it actually something that failed miserably?

Those examples show me that
1 - fraud one way or another becomes known (someone mentions it)
2- experts are perfectly capable of identifying fraud
3- record companies are not the ones that start the fraud
4- even record companies could be unwilling without malice participants in such acts they can face financial / legal consequences therefore they have all the more reason to do legit / high quality authentication processes.

Obviously those that didn't fail miserably succeded, cf. "Do the bartman"
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think it's 100% Michael singing the lead vocals of the questionable songs on the new record. and nothing will change my mind about that lol.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's a fact that much crap music is published, to cash-in mainly. But I never thought MJ fitted this category. While selling more than anyone else, the quality was always undisputable.

You are absolutely right. Michael Jackson never fits into cash-in category. All Jackson Five, Jacksons and Michael Jackson albums I own (anything from DR Presents the Jackson Five to Invincible) are excellent, beyond-this-world amazing. Michael's albums are very few things I have bought so far in my life that I truly think worth every single penny.

However, the album Michael is not really a Michael Jackson album. Please keep in mind it's a posthumous release prepared and produced without any input from Michael. I guess we can all agree, authenticity issue aside, the Cascio tracks in their current conditions would never see the light of day shall Michael was still here with us.

This is best for a record company: quality that sells. You can compare it to (for argument's sake) J.K. Rowling (being like MJ) versus Dan Brown (being like Britney). A publishing house with any standards will be happier to publish Potter books, because it gains the house both financial and cultural gain. It's not worth it for Sony to degrade MJ to a lesser status than he had (turn him into a Britney) by putting fakes out there and just cash in when forgetting about the artistical value.

For the first posthumous release and first studio album released under the name Michael Jackson in nine years, Sony came up with a 10-track album with two tracks previously leaked, one track previously released and three tracks with sub-par vocals. I'm sorry, but this is not what I call "quality". This album is economical and is just good enough to be released as an LP.

Yes, cultural and artistic reputation is important; but, it's not important enough for Sony or any other major record label to forgo profitability. No matter what Sony does, Sony cannot degrade Michael to a lesser status. No one can turn Michael into a Britney Spears. Michael Jackson is such a strong name brand that Sony is doing anything to milk from it.


Again, I think, if they are fakes, Sony wasn't aware of this. They have too much to lose. Not just MJ's artistry is on the line, their credibility as a publisher of music would be too.

I don't know if Sony is a fradulent party or not. But, Sony did have incentive to put the questionable tracks onto the album. I mentioned in my previous post how the questionable tracks open the door for more sub par songs to come in the future.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The point is, if you heard 3 people with similar voices and then was blind folded and told to identify the voices, you most of the time, would be wrong, and would rely on guess work


that's probably true. but this analogy doesn't apply to this argument.

We didn't hear 3 random people. i haven't "heard" michael jackson. I've listened to michael jackson. Over and over and over again. nearly every day of my life. i've heard every song he's ever been on, a million times over, in a million situations OVER AND OVER. am i qualified to pick his voice out, blindfolded?

hell yes.

apparently more so than sony.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Obviously those that didn't fail miserably succeded, cf. "Do the bartman"

I don't know if Sony is a fradulent party or not. But, Sony did have incentive to put the questionable tracks onto the album. I mentioned in my previous post how the questionable tracks open the door for more sub par songs to come in the future.

If we go with the Milli Vanilli example and the reality of music and law - I think it's pretty obvious that record companies have the least incentive for fraud because
1- they already earn a lot of money and have selling artists
2- selling a few more albums doesn't provide incentive for them to hurt their reputation for a long time (it's obvious that Michael album isn't selling 100s of millions so I don't think sales / profits could be an incentive for taking such a high risk with fraud / illegal activity)
3- they have completely acceptable (legal) methods in their disposal to use such as having as much as additional/ supporting vocals as long they are credited and creating "studio magic" with editing and enhancement.

so again - like the Milli Vanilli example - we come to the point of producers/ songwriters fooling people in record companies (if we are to go with successful fraud theory). Sure it could happen but in this case to me it seems unlikely because on one hand we have a group of people that can easily identify such fakeness with just listening to songs and on the other hand you have experts and longterm musicians easily fooled. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It's such an oxymoron like "a successful fraud that has an unsuccessful impostor".
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

An interesting article for all those who belive that fraud is unconceivable and too risky:

The creator of the pop due milli vanilli and many others, Frank Farian

Frank Farian is probably best know for composing the pop duo of milli vanilli. Farian is a singer/song writer and producer, however before all of this he started off as a cook. His work has produced more than 800 gold and platinum records so far. But Frank Ferian actually wanted to be a singer and he usually put his own voice in the backing or in place or along with the lead male singer.




Frank Farian has worked with many musical act such as, Boney M., Far Corporation, Meat Loaf, Milli Vanilli, Eruption, No Mercy, La Bouche, Le Click along with others. So you can tell Frank Farian who's real name by the way is Franz Reuther Farian, did not start doing this yesterday.

But Frank Farian is also known as a con artist, especially for the creation of millli vanilli where he had Rob and Fab actually front the whole thing and a bunch of other guys sang on the record. Now if you think that's the first time Frank Farian tried something like that then you are wrong, even in Boney M another group Farian produce he had himself and other's voices used for the vocals and it was not until the 1980's was Boney M's lead front man allowed to record vocals on the albums.

So we know about two music act Frank Farian created or enhanced should we say, thats why even though he has produced over 800 gold and platinum records Frank Farian is still know to be a con man by a lot of people.



Read more: http://www.bukisa.com/articles/406341_frank-farian#ixzz1DPdQ02Sd
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If we go with the Milli Vanilli example and the reality of music and law - I think it's pretty obvious that record companies have the least incentive for fraud because
1- they already earn a lot of money and have selling artists
2- selling a few more albums doesn't provide incentive for them to hurt their reputation for a long time (it's obvious that Michael album isn't selling 100s of millions so I don't think sales / profits could be an incentive for taking such a high risk with fraud / illegal activity)
3- they have completely acceptable (legal) methods in their disposal to use such as having as much as additional/ supporting vocals as long they are credited and creating "studio magic" with editing and enhancement.

so again - like the Milli Vanilli example - we come to the point of producers/ songwriters fooling people in record companies (if we are to go with successful fraud theory). Sure it could happen but in this case to me it seems unlikely because on one hand we have a group of people that can easily identify such fakeness with just listening to songs and on the other hand you have experts and longterm musicians easily fooled. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It's such an oxymoron like "a successful fraud that has an unsuccessful impostor".

Point #3 of your post - isn't it essentially what Sony has done with the Cascio tracks? Legally speaking, the tracks are not fraudulent. But, from my standpoint, the tracks are not Michael Jackson songs. Period.

Sony has the least incentive to commit "legal fraud"; yet, it has every incentive to include the sub par songs. Why? Like you mentioned in the past, save some genuine good one for future releases.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

If we go with the Milli Vanilli example and the reality of music and law - I think it's pretty obvious that record companies have the least incentive for fraud because
1- they already earn a lot of money and have selling artists
2- selling a few more albums doesn't provide incentive for them to hurt their reputation for a long time (it's obvious that Michael album isn't selling 100s of millions so I don't think sales / profits could be an incentive for taking such a high risk with fraud / illegal activity)
3- they have completely acceptable (legal) methods in their disposal to use such as having as much as additional/ supporting vocals as long they are credited and creating "studio magic" with editing and enhancement.

so again - like the Milli Vanilli example - we come to the point of producers/ songwriters fooling people in record companies (if we are to go with successful fraud theory). Sure it could happen but in this case to me it seems unlikely because on one hand we have a group of people that can easily identify such fakeness with just listening to songs and on the other hand you have experts and longterm musicians easily fooled. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It's such an oxymoron like "a successful fraud that has an unsuccessful impostor".

You keep on stating that legally it is almost impossible to do it.

Yet, I keep on providing examples, such as Plastic Bertrand with 4 FAKE ALBUMS in a country where illegal actions are taken seriously.

BONEY M, is another example which had this kind of illegal activity.

Michael Jackson was not credited on "DO THE BARTMAN" even if in the song, when you listen to it, can clearly recognize Michael Jackson's style, even the way the background vocals sing.

I remember when I heard "do the bartman" when it came out, I was looking for MJ's credits (cuz my ears were sure Michael was involved); and they were nowhere to be seen. I was disappointed and trusted what my eyes saw - no credits for Mike, so MJ was not involved. Today, no more, enough. I don't trust what I see, but what I hear).

Fraud is perfectly doable. The fact that someone is not credited is perfectly realistic. The companies or the responsibles involved don't seem to be bothered.

Companies claim that they don't earn that much money actually. Companies claim that for every flop they lose money as there are more flops than hits. So, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that they cover themselves legally and produce something cheap in order to earn easy money. It was done before. It's been done during many years and it will be done in the future. It is not because we don't hear any complaint that we can assume there is no more fraud than what we know. We see only 1/3 of the iceberg.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

An interesting article for all those who belive that fraud is unconceivable and too risky

I think I already summarized that - yes he did commit fraud but it failed and the risks became reality and they paid financial consequences that involved returning album and concert costs.

In the end they didn't make any profits from such activity, for both "real" and "fake" Milli Vanilli's music careers was over and they forever lost their reputation.

Sure it's doable (anything is possible in life) but actually this example show us that fraud do not pay.


You keep on stating that legally it is almost impossible to do it.

whoo stop there. where did I say it's legally impossible to do it? Murder is illegal but it still happens. So similarly fraud is possible but has legal consequences which means people has less incentive to do it. That's my whole point.

Fraud is perfectly doable. The fact that someone is not credited is perfectly realistic. The companies or the responsibles involved don't seem to be bothered.

we need the details for "do the bartman". There might be a contract in which Michael gave up his rights and/or got paid a lump sum money for his participation etc , he might be credited with an alias etc - in short it might have been legal. and my guess it is as the simpsons producers acknowledged this in later years.

Plus not crediting Michael in "do the bartman" is not a fraud because they were selling a "simpsons" album which was sing by the voice talents (nancy cartwright in this case) who indeed provided the vocals.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think I already summarized that - yes he did commit fraud but it failed and the risks became reality and they paid financial consequences that involved returning album and concert costs.

In the end they didn't make any profits from such activity, for both "real" and "fake" Milli Vanilli's music careers was over and they forever lost their reputation.

Sure it's doable (anything is possible in life) but actually this example show us that fraud do not pay.


Well not exactly.

I won't go back to Milli Vanilli again, but, -one last thing- we cannot deny that they didn't enjoy huge success.

Boney M have known huge success, mainly all over Europe, and are still played on the radio stations.

"Do the Bartman" knew a frank success back in time, without proper credit.

I mean, come on, who are we trying to be kidding here? The world -despite the laws- will do things that go against the law. Further on, companies become more and more nuts driving, they cover themselves legally with a pile of legal acts, annexes and clauses that it becomes almost impossible to attack them in justice. You know in advance that you lose, unless one of the involved doesn't admit it himself (which we will know maybe in 10 - 20 -30 years, after prescription period).
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I think I already summarized that - yes he did commit fraud but it failed and the risks became reality and they paid financial consequences that involved returning album and concert costs.

In the end they didn't make any profits from such activity, for both "real" and "fake" Milli Vanilli's music careers was over and they forever lost their reputation.

Sure it's doable (anything is possible in life) but actually this example show us that fraud do not pay.




whoo stop there. where did I say it's legally impossible to do it? Murder is illegal but it still happens. So similarly fraud is possible but has legal consequences which means people has less incentive to do it. That's my whole point.

You make it sound impossible.



we need the details for "do the bartman". There might be a contract in which Michael gave up his rights and/or got paid a lump sum money for his participation etc , he might be credited with an alias etc - in short it might have been legal.


You won't get them. There is none as someone else has been credited. You are not going to risk your on-going contract by signing another one with an alias. It would be too easy to dig it out. Let's not omit that verbal contracts with witnesses exist too. So if there was a verbal contract, you won't have necessarily a written one.
 
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