Michael - The Great Album Debate

[this is in reply to Birchey's post]

You make two claims that, if either could be proven, would be sufficient to finally prove the songs are fake :

1- there was no basement studio in the Cascios' home in the summer of 2007

2- there were no forensic tests done on the Cascio a capellas before the album's release

What is your proof for these two statements?

You also say MJ's kids will finally do something when they control the Estate. What is your source, and why did Prince tweet his greetings and affection to the Cascios some time after the controversy, if he thinks they're fraudsters?

What is your claim regarding Stuart Brawley's implication?

Some of the Cascio titles certainly predate MJ's stay in NJ; for instance Soldier Boy was first registered in like 2005 with Porte on vocals.

You say no forensic tests were done. So is it your contention that John McClain, John Branca and Sony Music KNEW the songs were fake when the album came out?

You say that what Eddie registered 48 hours after MJ's death are his songs, with no MJ on it. But that would imply that, 48 hours after MJ's death, he had already hatched this scheme to record an impersonator and get rich off this hoax. Seems improbable that, in such a short length of time, in the confusion after MJ's death, he would concoct such a risky, difficult-to-pull-out scheme.
 
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[this is in reply to Birchey's post]

You make two claims that, if either could be proven, would be sufficient to finally prove the songs are fake :

1- there was no basement studio in the Cascios' home in the summer of 2007

2- there were no forensic tests done on the Cascio a capellas before the album's release

What is your proof for these two statements?

You also say MJ's kids will finally do something when they control the Estate. What is your source, and why did Prince tweet his greetings and affection to the Cascios some time after the controversy, if he thinks they're fraudsters?

What is your claim regarding Stuart Bradley's implication?

Some of the Cascio titles certainly predate MJ's stay in NJ; for instance Soldier Boy was first registered in like 2005 with Porte on vocals.

You say no forensic tests were done. So is it your contention that John McClain, John Branca and Sony Music KNEW the songs were fake when the album came out?

1 - I didn't say outright there was no basement studio, what I am saying is that they already had a studio in there house which wasn't in the basement, and from the quote I posted, seems they wasn't a studio in the basement when MJ arrived. On top of that the only photo released shows no studio at all.

2 - If I said I had a forensic test done and it showed the vocals matched Malachi 100% but provided no proof, or even the name of the people who did the test, does that prove I did the test? I know the part in that statement released by Weitzman about everyone agreeing the vocals were MJ is a lie, proof of that is coming, and thats the part where he names MP, BB, Corey etc, so the part where he doesn't name these "forensic guys" hold even less weight.

My proof for 1 has already been said, you will have to wait for proof of number 2, but I can swear to you on anything you like that Weitzman lied in his statement.

Its difficult for Michael's kids as the Cascios were friends with them for a very long time, they got pulled into this and at the time I don't think they fully understood it, but they were asked things, I wont say what but they confirmed that during Michael's stay he never recorded any of those songs but confirmed he worked on Thriller 25, again you have my word.

The Stewart Brawley connection goes very deep, I would need a week or so to get everything together we found, but making those songs sound anywhere near Michael was impossible without him.

If the thing about Soldier Boy predating MJ's stay is too do with the MJSongbook, well we don't know what was in the Mjsongbook, only that its title suggests it was lyrical, book = written.

Oh yes definately, I believe in their minds they knew it wasn't Michael. but you need to understand, Sony bought the Cascio tracks by Cheque months before most people inside Sony heard them, months before the family heard them, months before a producer other than Brawley touched them and you can bet a contract of terms was written up which meant they had to release a certain amount of those songs to ensure publishing rights for Angelikson before the songs were purchased. Sony went in to fast, jumped at the chance of 12 New MJ songs, but in the long run it didn't pay off as they have 9 redundant tracks, if they believed sooooo much those songs were MJ, if Branca did, do you think they would have been shelved? this is absolute proof, Eddie has NO PROOF MJ sung those songs.

Its as simple as this, the Cascio songs will not be released because Eddie can't prove MJ ever sung them, its not about us proving those songs are fake anymore, we won, if fans heard the songs 3 months before the album was released you can guarantee we would have never seen them released. there are NINE more songs there, an entire album of material with Millions to gain from releasing them, whats stopping them? The truth......or lack of depending on which side of the fence you sit.
 
With the release of Chicago, my opinions might have started to change slightly. We know that She Was Loving Me is a real MJ song, but I think they autotuned it, or used Melodyne. In some parts of the song, the vibrato sounds a little processed. I did believe the Cascio songs were fake, but now I'm on the fence about it. :(
 
I didn't even notice any similarities until others started mentioning it... Chicago just sounded like normal MJ to me. It's possible the song was pitched up a tad for whatever reason.

But with the Cascio tracks, it isn't just the tone, its everything. The thing is, if people believe Malachi sang on the Cascio tracks, he does somewhat sound like MJ in certain scenarios. Otherwise, hardly anyone would probably even know who he is. But at the same time, he doesn't really sound like MJ. It's like a bowling ball and a basketball. They look a lot alike, but not really. With the Cascio tracks, its not just the tone, its the pronunciation, the lack of any other authentic vocals that everyone can agree on. For instance, in Chicago, does anyone doubt the chorus is MJ? I doubt it. I can point to no such segment of any Cascio song and say "that's Michael Jackson for sure" (except for the pasted ad-libs).

Chicago is not just a random MJ song. It's a well-known outtake, professionally recorded with engineers and witnesses I'm sure, not a secret recording between two or three people. But even if you think the verses in Chicago sound similar to some of the Cascio tracks, look at the whole picture and ask yourself if you think the pronunciation between the vocalists is the same.
 
I think the Cascio songs may actually be partly MJ. In the new song Loving You, he says restaurant and stay just like in Keep Your Head Up. In Fall In Love, there is adlibs that go, "I was loving you, loving you."
 
By the way, today Jason is releasing his new song A Little Bit Of Grace in full. :)
 
Lol! Guys, if you compare only the vibrato alone, then you can take any singer out there and find similarities. The thing with Chicago is that you instantly recognize MJ's voice with all the ingredients that it involves, not only the vibrato. With the Cascio songs the vibrato was nothing more than an additional oddity to the already unrecognizable voice timbre.

By the way, some have already pointed in the news thread that at times the voice in Chicago is a bit stretched.

Personally, I didn't even notice the vibrato in Chicago until paying attention to it. The reason I didn't notice it is because even if possibly processed it is soft and isn't annoying as oppsoed to the vibrato on the Cascio tracks which is killing my ears.

I don't actually even see the point of dragging Chicago into this thread. To me people who say that Chicago sounds like the Cascio tracks is like saying that Hollywood Tonight sounds like Cascio tracks too, which means that they clearly can't say the difference between MJ's voice and an imitator's voice. But I don't blame those people, because the Cascio tracks as a matter of fact are full of MJ's bits of real voice that were copy-pasted from mainly Invincible tracks.
 
I think the Cascio songs may actually be partly MJ. In the new song Loving You, he says restaurant and stay just like in Keep Your Head Up. In Fall In Love, there is adlibs that go, "I was loving you, loving you."

The reason you think this is because at times, Jason Malachi gets it spot on. He was put on those songs to imitate MJ and he's doing it really well. Don't be fooled though. The only Michael Jackson on those songs are the copy-pasted ad libs.
 
I think the Cascio songs may actually be partly MJ. In the new song Loving You, he says restaurant and stay just like in Keep Your Head Up. In Fall In Love, there is adlibs that go, "I was loving you, loving you."

No, dude. No...You're just going to disregard everything that's been said? It isn't just the tone of voice, it's also the word pronunciation, the fact that it sounds like a completely different individual when compared to Michael's other songs. And the voice in "Lovin' You" sounds totally different from that in Fall In Love, as well as KYHU.

Same goes for "Chicago", like one person on this forum yesterday actually suggested he sounded that differently, then took it back later on in the day. While it's clear his voice has been meddled with, it isn't to the extent of the Cascio songs, here he still sounds like Michael. Whereas Eddie & Co, just failed to retain his own characteristics and vocal ticks, I don't think this is the result of software, also to make him sound so much like a well known impersonator, like why? Why they want Michael to sound like an impersonator of himself? It's just isn't Michael on those songs.
 
1 - I didn't say outright there was no basement studio, what I am saying is that they already had a studio in there house which wasn't in the basement, and from the quote I posted, seems they wasn't a studio in the basement when MJ arrived. On top of that the only photo released shows no studio at all.

2 - If I said I had a forensic test done and it showed the vocals matched Malachi 100% but provided no proof, or even the name of the people who did the test, does that prove I did the test? I know the part in that statement released by Weitzman about everyone agreeing the vocals were MJ is a lie, proof of that is coming, and thats the part where he names MP, BB, Corey etc, so the part where he doesn't name these "forensic guys" hold even less weight.

My proof for 1 has already been said, you will have to wait for proof of number 2, but I can swear to you on anything you like that Weitzman lied in his statement.

Its difficult for Michael's kids as the Cascios were friends with them for a very long time, they got pulled into this and at the time I don't think they fully understood it, but they were asked things, I wont say what but they confirmed that during Michael's stay he never recorded any of those songs but confirmed he worked on Thriller 25, again you have my word.

The Stewart Brawley connection goes very deep, I would need a week or so to get everything together we found, but making those songs sound anywhere near Michael was impossible without him.

If the thing about Soldier Boy predating MJ's stay is too do with the MJSongbook, well we don't know what was in the Mjsongbook, only that its title suggests it was lyrical, book = written.

Oh yes definately, I believe in their minds they knew it wasn't Michael. but you need to understand, Sony bought the Cascio tracks by Cheque months before most people inside Sony heard them, months before the family heard them, months before a producer other than Brawley touched them and you can bet a contract of terms was written up which meant they had to release a certain amount of those songs to ensure publishing rights for Angelikson before the songs were purchased. Sony went in to fast, jumped at the chance of 12 New MJ songs, but in the long run it didn't pay off as they have 9 redundant tracks, if they believed sooooo much those songs were MJ, if Branca did, do you think they would have been shelved? this is absolute proof, Eddie has NO PROOF MJ sung those songs.

Its as simple as this, the Cascio songs will not be released because Eddie can't prove MJ ever sung them, its not about us proving those songs are fake anymore, we won, if fans heard the songs 3 months before the album was released you can guarantee we would have never seen them released. there are NINE more songs there, an entire album of material with Millions to gain from releasing them, whats stopping them? The truth......or lack of depending on which side of the fence you sit.


I've been waiting for someone else to write this out on a forum. I've said similar things on MaxJax, but never worded as good. Well said.
 
1 - I didn't say outright there was no basement studio, what I am saying is that they already had a studio in there house which wasn't in the basement, and from the quote I posted, seems they wasn't a studio in the basement when MJ arrived. On top of that the only photo released shows no studio at all.

2 - If I said I had a forensic test done and it showed the vocals matched Malachi 100% but provided no proof, or even the name of the people who did the test, does that prove I did the test? I know the part in that statement released by Weitzman about everyone agreeing the vocals were MJ is a lie, proof of that is coming, and thats the part where he names MP, BB, Corey etc, so the part where he doesn't name these "forensic guys" hold even less weight.

My proof for 1 has already been said, you will have to wait for proof of number 2, but I can swear to you on anything you like that Weitzman lied in his statement.

Its difficult for Michael's kids as the Cascios were friends with them for a very long time, they got pulled into this and at the time I don't think they fully understood it, but they were asked things, I wont say what but they confirmed that during Michael's stay he never recorded any of those songs but confirmed he worked on Thriller 25, again you have my word.

The Stewart Brawley connection goes very deep, I would need a week or so to get everything together we found, but making those songs sound anywhere near Michael was impossible without him.

If the thing about Soldier Boy predating MJ's stay is too do with the MJSongbook, well we don't know what was in the Mjsongbook, only that its title suggests it was lyrical, book = written.

Oh yes definately, I believe in their minds they knew it wasn't Michael. but you need to understand, Sony bought the Cascio tracks by Cheque months before most people inside Sony heard them, months before the family heard them, months before a producer other than Brawley touched them and you can bet a contract of terms was written up which meant they had to release a certain amount of those songs to ensure publishing rights for Angelikson before the songs were purchased. Sony went in to fast, jumped at the chance of 12 New MJ songs, but in the long run it didn't pay off as they have 9 redundant tracks, if they believed sooooo much those songs were MJ, if Branca did, do you think they would have been shelved? this is absolute proof, Eddie has NO PROOF MJ sung those songs.

Its as simple as this, the Cascio songs will not be released because Eddie can't prove MJ ever sung them, its not about us proving those songs are fake anymore, we won, if fans heard the songs 3 months before the album was released you can guarantee we would have never seen them released. there are NINE more songs there, an entire album of material with Millions to gain from releasing them, whats stopping them? The truth......or lack of depending on which side of the fence you sit.

Regarding the forensic tests, the fact they haven't mentioned the names of the experts, or published the results, makes sense in the sense that that information would be proprietary information, that would only come out in court.

As for the names of the people mentioned in the statement as having recognized MJ, surely, if they DID NOT recognize him, or now think it is not him, it is incumbent on them to say so publicly. If my name was used to support an opinion I don't agree with, I wouldn't let it stand. By the way, of the people you name, only MP is named in the statement as having recognized MJ. Brad and Cory are not.

Regarding the MJ songbook, it is registered not just as lyrics or music, but also as a musical performance. Again, it doesn't mean MJ sang those songs, but it does mean that, two days after his death, Eddie was already CLAIMING he did. And so, could he have come up with the concept for the hoax in such a short time?

It is certainly easy to believe that the Estate would have WISHED for the Cascio songs to be real : after all, it is 12 new MJ songs, which is great for anyone, especially them. It is even believable that they could have been fooled by an hoax, or that in their desire to believe the songs are real, they would have half-assed the process to confirm their authenticity. But the idea that they would have knowingly, purposely released 3 songs that they KNEW were fake makes no sense. Sure, they wanted 12 extra songs, but not to the point of putting out on an official product fake songs : that would be stupid, self-defeating and financial/legal suicide.

If the Estate were to NEVER release the other 9 Cascio songs, if would certainly be a strong indication that even they admit they are fake : after all, there is no way they would sit on 9 legit MJ songs if they had any sort of proof they're real. But the fact that no Cascio songs are on Xscape, and that Branca is apparently telling fans that those songs will not see the light of day, doesn't mean that they never will -- especially if we are to believe that Branca is nothing but a liar.

As for "the fans' victory" : there is no victory as long as the 3 released songs are still part of the official discography. If an historian were to write a biography on MJ right now, he could not write in conscience : "in 2010, three fake songs sung by an impersonator were released on an official MJ album". He could only write "three songs thought by some to be fake were released".

Finally, it is frustrating to hear from some people things like "we know things, stay tuned, you'll hear them soon", or "take my word for it, so and so said this". That's not how it works. We need to come out with what we know, with sources and context and attribution. Otherwise it's just a game of uncertain quotes that leads nowhere.
 
I wonder if they processed real MJ voice to make us feel suspicious because a lot of fans here were like "vocal processing doesn't change how a singer sounds like Cascio tracks". Of course it doesn't but it can throw us off, lol...

Listening to both Chicago and Loving You for the first few seconds it took me a while for my mind to process the voice as MJ. Listening with headphones as opposed to speakers helps. For Chicago it was only upon hearing the chorus I knew for sure it was Michael. Breaking News on the other hand I thought "hmm, it sounds a bit like Michael... wait he doesn't sound like this, it sounds like Jason Malachi

I think Chicago has been pitched up by one semitone (nothing new, because MJ might have done that himself as with many previous songs). Lovin' You is original pitch but it has been processed vocally.
 
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Regarding the forensic tests, the fact they haven't mentioned the names of the experts, or published the results, makes sense in the sense that that information would be proprietary information, that would only come out in court.

As for the names of the people mentioned in the statement as having recognized MJ, surely, if they DID NOT recognize him, or now think it is not him, it is incumbent on them to say so publicly. If my name was used to support an opinion I don't agree with, I wouldn't let it stand. By the way, of the people you name, only MP is named in the statement as having recognized MJ. Brad and Cory are not.

Regarding the MJ songbook, it is registered not just as lyrics or music, but also as a musical performance. Again, it doesn't mean MJ sang those songs, but it does mean that, two days after his death, Eddie was already CLAIMING he did. And so, could he have come up with the concept for the hoax in such a short time?

It is certainly easy to believe that the Estate would have WISHED for the Cascio songs to be real : after all, it is 12 new MJ songs, which is great for anyone, especially them. It is even believable that they could have been fooled by an hoax, or that in their desire to believe the songs are real, they would have half-assed the process to confirm their authenticity. But the idea that they would have knowingly, purposely released 3 songs that they KNEW were fake makes no sense. Sure, they wanted 12 extra songs, but not to the point of putting out on an official product fake songs : that would be stupid, self-defeating and financial/legal suicide.

If the Estate were to NEVER release the other 9 Cascio songs, if would certainly be a strong indication that even they admit they are fake : after all, there is no way they would sit on 9 legit MJ songs if they had any sort of proof they're real. But the fact that no Cascio songs are on Xscape, and that Branca is apparently telling fans that those songs will not see the light of day, doesn't mean that they never will -- especially if we are to believe that Branca is nothing but a liar.

As for "the fans' victory" : there is no victory as long as the 3 released songs are still part of the official discography. If an historian were to write a biography on MJ right now, he could not write in conscience : "in 2010, three fake songs sung by an impersonator were released on an official MJ album". He could only write "three songs thought by some to be fake were released".

Finally, it is frustrating to hear from some people things like "we know things, stay tuned, you'll hear them soon", or "take my word for it, so and so said this". That's not how it works. We need to come out with what we know, with sources and context and attribution. Otherwise it's just a game of uncertain quotes that leads nowhere.

Bullshit on you're opening line, only come out in court? Why even mention the tests? The whole point of that statement was to reassure fans they did their homework before songs were released.

And regarding that statement, I can tell you right now people who were in that meeting didn't even know of the existence of that statement until a couple of years later, funny ain't it.

As for the MJsongbook sh*t, "sound recording, performance, production, compilation, LYRICS." the entry could contain Eddie farting into a Mic, for all we know, but at a guess its Porte's demos, plus some lyrics (notice in the entry they are in caps) Eddie wrote for MJ. Fact is if this stuff was ready and cataloged 2 days after MJ passed, it funny it took 2 years for anyone outside of Porte, Cascio and Brawley's magic circle to even hear it.

Fans can't change the past and even bringing a lawsuit against Sony, they would deflect it onto the Cascios, so the case would be against them, not the Estate either. So even proving the songs were faked in court doesn't mean they will remove them from the catalogue. But like I said if fans heard the songs 3 months before release they would never be on there, you know it, I know it, History shows it. We stopped Monster single release, and we know they won't ever release another one of those songs so lets not beat about the bush.

It is frustrating to hear "we know things, stay tuned" but we know things because WE ARE OUT THERE gathering for our side of the story, why don't you try find some evidence MJ sung these songs? instead of sitting on a forum waiting to generalize and side step around peoples posts. Then again there actually is evidence for us to gather, unlike supporters of these piss poor, tracks.
 
I'm done here for a while, back to joke posts xD I think everyone has made their minds up on this, so its not much of a debate anymore.

pvc-roller.gif
 
As soon as they issued the statement my first reaction was: "Who are those "one of the best forensics"? What are their names?" One doesn't talk science (forenscis) without revealing the names of the scientists! It is as if the NASA issued a report saying that some of the best astronauts walked on the Moon without ever revealing their names under the pretext that it could be harmful for their privacy. I mean come on, when one talks science, one signs his/her name at least for the credit.
 
My belief is actually either those vocals are Michael, under a weird autotune, or they are partially Michael, and an imitator was used to finish up the parts that weren't done.

Forget it, i heard the acapella from Breaking News, "his" voice was trembling, and awful high.
Then i heard the acapella of Stranger In Moscow, and his voice was much clearer.
The weird part is, i autotuned the song "Monster" (i wanted to make his voice lower), but "his" voice didn't changed at all, then i autotuned the acapella of Butterflies, funny how the latter did change...
 
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According to Teddy Riley, the FBI had a hand in the forensic testing:

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He posted these tweets shortly after the premiere of Breaking News.
 
I wonder what ever happened to the book that Teddy was supposed to put out...
 
Here's the original question:

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So Teddy Riley may have actually seen the forensic musicologist/tests.
 
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I wonder what ever happened to the book that Teddy was supposed to put out...

I guess the same thing that happened with the forensic tests and the other takes that were deleted from the hard drive, video proof of Michael recording Monster in the studio etc, etc, etc - never happened.
 
While I'm convinced the Angelikson songs are counterfeit, I do believe a forensic musicologist was likely involved in the Estate's internal investigation.
 
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Bullshit on you're opening line, only come out in court? Why even mention the tests? The whole point of that statement was to reassure fans they did their homework before songs were released.

And regarding that statement, I can tell you right now people who were in that meeting didn't even know of the existence of that statement until a couple of years later, funny ain't it.

As for the MJsongbook sh*t, "sound recording, performance, production, compilation, LYRICS." the entry could contain Eddie farting into a Mic, for all we know, but at a guess its Porte's demos, plus some lyrics (notice in the entry they are in caps) Eddie wrote for MJ. Fact is if this stuff was ready and cataloged 2 days after MJ passed, it funny it took 2 years for anyone outside of Porte, Cascio and Brawley's magic circle to even hear it.

Fans can't change the past and even bringing a lawsuit against Sony, they would deflect it onto the Cascios, so the case would be against them, not the Estate either. So even proving the songs were faked in court doesn't mean they will remove them from the catalogue. But like I said if fans heard the songs 3 months before release they would never be on there, you know it, I know it, History shows it. We stopped Monster single release, and we know they won't ever release another one of those songs so lets not beat about the bush.

It is frustrating to hear "we know things, stay tuned" but we know things because WE ARE OUT THERE gathering for our side of the story, why don't you try find some evidence MJ sung these songs? instead of sitting on a forum waiting to generalize and side step around peoples posts. Then again there actually is evidence for us to gather, unlike supporters of these piss poor, tracks.

Yeah, this last post is disappointing to me : I had heard good things about you, and I thought we could have a discussion where we actually both try to ascertain the truth. I assumed you had extra information and insight. Instead, as is so often the case with the anti-Cascio people, you come off as angry, dogmatic, sectarian and arrogant. You're not a hero, and I'm not a villain. We should all work TOGETHER to solve ALL aspects of the Cascio mystery. And we should be happy when we're asked for proof or confronted with another angle we didn't think of. Instead it always turns into a contest where we try to "win" over the other side. We should all be on the same side : to prove the complete truth, with all of the nuances that might not fit into our black-and-white preferences.
 
One thing I forgot to add : Birchey says "we stopped Monster from coming out as a single". Aside from the fact that we don't know why that particular single didn't come out, I need to point out that Monster was included in the Immortal show and on the Immortal cd. Yes I know they only used 50 Cent's rap, but Cascio still got credit and royalties since you get money even if only a few seconds of your song is sampled.

The Estate certainly didn't need to throw that bone to Eddie. So why did they? If they know the songs are fake and know that we know, it seems to me that that particular song would have been kept far away from a second official product.
 
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I wonder what ever happened to the book that Teddy was supposed to put out...

Speaking of which, I wish Frank Dileo had finished his book. He was supposed to offer his perspective on the vocal controversy, as he was fairly close to the matter.
 
My friend Ghost, who knew about Days In Gloucestershire leaking two months before it happened, other friend just leaked two new Jason Malachi songs and some snippets of one song.
 
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