Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Arklove]

^^ I've heard that recording....He indeed sounds different, although I could (barely) tell it was him...But that was a taped recording, not a studio recording...

HOWEVER, imagine MJ DID record these songs, but sounding like he did on the Murray recording....Is that realistic that he'd record 12 songs sounding like that? Is it realistic that MJ would actually want to record with a flu/cold with a hoarse voice that ultimately made him sound like a different person? The person singing the Cascio songs doesn't sound like he's sick with a cold or flu or under the influence of anything. He just sounds like someone else.

We've all heard him on the Mexico deposition where he had just had oral surgery...He sounded a bit muffled and a little garbled while singing, yet he still sounded like himself.

 

[Aniram]

That's a good point, ivy, but coming out of being knocked out by Propofol? You think Michael was ever being injected with Propofol or morphine, etc. during his Cascio stay? I just think that's a rather extreme example, when you're under one of the most powerful drugs in the world. I'm not thinking he was under anything other than normal medication during his stay with the Cascios, but I may be wrong.

The voice in the recording I heard, though, where Michael sounded horrible and I believe the one you're referring to, where he talked about the childrens hospitals he wanted to build? I also doubt that if he sang while in that condition that he'd sound anything remotely like the Cascio songs.

 

[qbee]

Well That's Big difference becuase MJ was drugged under the influence of propoful, of course he would sound different. No one is saying MJ couldnt sound different. But he always sounded like MJ. Even in that tape couls hear MJ. I just dont feel that tape of Murray's is a good expample to use in this discussion. He wasnt recording music. Plus there is no evidence Michael was even in ill health during his time at the Casico's.

I didnt know you subscribe to the theory that Michael sounded different becuase was not well when recording these songs. Im not saying being ill can't make one sound different. But I dont think his health would place such a weird goat sounding vibrato on his voice. It is clear it was artificially maniplulated by the Casico's. Even Riley said it was.

Being the perfectionist Michael was it is my opinion he wouldn't even be recording songs if he felt his health was making his voice sound distorted. He never was in any hurry, He just wanted it perfect. Why would he change just for those songs

 

[ivy]

It was just an example - yes an extreme one. I'm not claiming anything. However if what Grace said was true and Michael was using any kind of drugs in 2007 what do you expect it to be? It's either Propofol or Demerol. That Murray audio is an example of Propofol and many people commented slower speech and slurry speech after going to Klein.

I just wanted a little realistic approach. It's known that there are some medicine that can make a person doozy and doctors say not to drive a car , not to operate heavy machinery and so on. Similarly illness and certain drugs can make a person sound different.

I have no problems with thinking it's highly unlikely that Michael would record 12 songs under the influence, I'm just saying please let's not say stuff like "feeling unwell or being under the influence doesn't make a person sound different". Let's be a little realistic.

I didnt know you subscribe to the theory that Michael sounded different because was not well when recording these songs.

I don't subscribe to such theory. It just got me thinking last night. What Darren Julien said about Michael being under the influence of drugs during his recovery and signing signatures. It just made me remember Grace's statement to the police and I started thinking "what if"?

PS : as for evidence there's actually Grace's police statement that Michael was using drugs during his stay at New Jersey. You have Cascio's on the other hand - not under oath- denying it.

see page 13 - http://ww2.lasuperiorcourt.org/hp/5s3a3q554ls1fmyz4pudtnay/1468308454.pdf

"In 2007, Michael Jackson stayed at Mr Cascio's house in New Jersey. Grace Rwaramba stated that during this time Michael Jackson was involved in heavy drug use".

 

[qbee]

^^ Ok thank you becuase I never heard you mention his health being a factor before. I see you are just presenting different scenrios of what if.

.. fair enough. It's reasonable to think his voice woul sond different under those circumstances. but it is my opinion as I said above Being the perfectionist Michael was he wouldn't even be recording songs if he felt his health was making his voice sound distorted. He never was in any hurry, He just wanted it perfect. Why would he change just for those songs. He recorded other songs during that time period and they sound great.

 

[ivy]

Actually qbee - guess what my brain is racing today.

As for evidence there's actually Grace's police statement that Michael was using drugs during his stay at New Jersey. You have Cascio's on the other hand - not under oath- denying it. (Regardless to say now I'm quite interested in hearing what Frank will say under oath)

see page 13 - http://ww2.lasuperiorcourt.org/hp/5s3a3q554ls1fmyz4pudtnay/1468308454.pdf

"In 2007, Michael Jackson stayed at Mr Cascio's house in New Jersey. Grace Rwaramba stated that during this time Michael Jackson was involved in heavy drug use".

Now a what if scenario.

What if what Grace said was true and Michael was involved in heavy drug use. Can it explain the off the vocals? Can it explain not his regular habits in regards to recording? Could he be so out of it to the point not care (for perfection for example) and not even realize? Could it explain to withholding any evidence - if they have it - just as Darren Julien claimed as the reason they are withholding the video of Michael signing stuff? ( If you don't know Darren Julien reportedly stated there's a video of Michael signing the stuff but they will not release it because he doesn't look the best - as apparently he's recovering from an operation and using drugs meantime)

Furthermore interesting dilemma - who do you think is telling the truth? Grace or the Cascios? Do you believe Cascios who said they didn't see Michael under the influence when you think they are lying about the songs?


Ugh, my brain. Let me go away and do something else.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I guess I'm the only one that heard the recording that Murray did when Michael was under the influence and sounded totally different.

Can we at least be realistic? I'm assuming that everyone at least had a cold / flu and sounded hoarse and different in their life. It's quite unrealistic to say that "feeling unwell, under the influence etc" wouldn't make a person sound different. It does.

I disagree. I heard the recording and I clearly recognize MJ's voice. The same characteristics as at the end of the film Moonwalker when he goes through that door with Zeke, Sean and Kathy through the backstage rooms. Of course the Murray recording is exceptional, nevertheless MJ's voiceprint is clearly present, no doubt about it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Actually qbee - guess what my brain is racing today.

As for evidence there's actually Grace's police statement that Michael was using drugs during his stay at New Jersey. You have Cascio's on the other hand - not under oath- denying it. (Regardless to say now I'm quite interested in hearing what Frank will say under oath)

see page 13 - http://ww2.lasuperiorcourt.org/hp/5s3a3q554ls1fmyz4pudtnay/1468308454.pdf

"In 2007, Michael Jackson stayed at Mr Cascio's house in New Jersey. Grace Rwaramba stated that during this time Michael Jackson was involved in heavy drug use".

Now a what if scenario.

What if what Grace said was true and Michael was involved in heavy drug use. Can it explain the off the vocals? Can it explain not his regular habits in regards to recording? Could he be so out of it to the point not care (for perfection for example) and not even realize? Could it explain to withholding any evidence - if they have it - just as Darren Julien claimed as the reason they are withholding the video of Michael signing stuff? ( If you don't know Darren Julien reportedly stated there's a video of Michael signing the stuff but they will not release it because he doesn't look the best - as apparently he's recovering from an operation and using drugs meantime)

Furthermore interesting dilemma - who do you think is telling the truth? Grace or the Cascios? Do you believe Cascios who said they didn't see Michael under the influence when you think they are lying about the songs?


Ugh, my brain. Let me go away and do something else.

Then you also need to include these factors in your theory:

-how long was he on that something?
-how long does it take to record 12 songs?
-does the singer sound "high" on those recordings
-where are the mumblings, giving instructions, etc?

 

[Pentum]

Ivy, I am some times amazed at the excuses (or "possible" reasons) you come up with to why MJ sounds different in all of these songs. Really have no words... No offense.

 

[Aniram]

The Cascio vocalist sounds completely focused and coherent. Not like someone on heavy sedatives.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Summing up the last few pages:

[youtube]Ls4qXjZtZXI[/youtube]

[youtube]tZhWB0Kh-3s[/youtube]

 

[ivy]

Then you also need to include these factors in your theory:

not a theory just an overworking brain what if

-how long was he on that something?
-how long does it take to record 12 songs?

you do realize that heavy drug use = addiction = continuous right?

-does the singer sound "high" on those recordings

example of sounding high please. I never heard being able to determine drug use from the sound.

------------------------------------------------

Alcohol

Alcohol is both a depressant and a muscle relaxant, affecting the whole body. Sometimes even a small amount can lead to lowered awareness of pitch and vocal control. It is also drying to the membranes of the throat and larynx, which need to stay moist and lubricated. Finally, alcohol causes dilation of the blood vessels, resulting in a swelling of the vocal folds. The voice coarsens from the thickening of the vocal folds, which are potentially in danger of a hemorrhage. Beer and wine have a lower alcohol content than hard liquor but are still best taken in moderation and after a performance, not before it.

------------------

How can drugs and alcohol affect the voice?
They dry out the voice. And, when this happens they can’t vibrate properly and become highly irritated. It’s not easy for them to work. When smoking, plaque forms on the vocal cords, creating a rough-sounding voice. Vocalists suffering from this tend to work too hard to compensate for the voice not being as pliable as it once was. As a result, hemorrhages – ruptured blood vessels – and polyps can form, creating an even rougher sound. It’s detrimental because that plaque is not something that can be removed surgically from the vocal cords.
What other effects do drugs and alcohol have on the voice?
The main detriment is muscle-covering – that is, the singer’s sensation of the voice becomes dampened, so they are no longer connected to it. The substances themselves include damaging factors, but when a singer is vocalizing without any sensation, it can be very dangerous and damaging. Likely, they could be pushing the voice to compensate for that numbness or lack of feeling they are experiencing when they sing.
Drugs

Drugs and medications can have direct effects and side effects, which may alter your vocal production as well as your general ability to function. Illegal drugs, prescription, and over-the-counter medications are all capable of both causing damage and masking damage. They all bear potentially serious capacity to harm your voice.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, I am some times amazed at the excuses (or "possible" reasons) you come up with to why MJ sounds different in all of these songs. Really have no words... No offense.

I'm also totally amazed that you were unable to read the part when I said I do not subscribe to such theory and what Darren Julien said got me thinking (because the allegedly fake signatures is quite similar to the Cascio event) and it was just a what if. I would not feel any offense as I did not claim any of the above as a reason or an excuse. I really wish people have better reading - no offense.

For the record : My position is still the same as it always was - Malachi has an inferior technique, you are losing me with "100% Malachi" point of view and I'm more likely to believe to another soundalike and/or ghost vocals. I also believe to the possibility and effect of Porte being included. Plus processing to some extent. That's all.

If and when I came up with any other theory I would post it in bold and red colors so you wouldn't feel confused about my stand and my "excuses".

ps : you could at least thank me that I'm giving you something new to discuss and debunk or would you prefer the non active thread that no one posts and pictures monkey balls?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

not a theory just an overworking brain what if



you do realize that heavy drug use = addiction = continuous right?



example of sounding high please. I never heard being able to determine drug use from the sound.

------------------------------------------------

Alcohol

Alcohol is both a depressant and a muscle relaxant, affecting the whole body. Sometimes even a small amount can lead to lowered awareness of pitch and vocal control. It is also drying to the membranes of the throat and larynx, which need to stay moist and lubricated. Finally, alcohol causes dilation of the blood vessels, resulting in a swelling of the vocal folds. The voice coarsens from the thickening of the vocal folds, which are potentially in danger of a hemorrhage. Beer and wine have a lower alcohol content than hard liquor but are still best taken in moderation and after a performance, not before it.

------------------

How can drugs and alcohol affect the voice?
They dry out the voice. And, when this happens they can’t vibrate properly and become highly irritated. It’s not easy for them to work. When smoking, plaque forms on the vocal cords, creating a rough-sounding voice. Vocalists suffering from this tend to work too hard to compensate for the voice not being as pliable as it once was. As a result, hemorrhages – ruptured blood vessels – and polyps can form, creating an even rougher sound. It’s detrimental because that plaque is not something that can be removed surgically from the vocal cords.
What other effects do drugs and alcohol have on the voice?
The main detriment is muscle-covering – that is, the singer’s sensation of the voice becomes dampened, so they are no longer connected to it. The substances themselves include damaging factors, but when a singer is vocalizing without any sensation, it can be very dangerous and damaging. Likely, they could be pushing the voice to compensate for that numbness or lack of feeling they are experiencing when they sing.
Drugs

Drugs and medications can have direct effects and side effects, which may alter your vocal production as well as your general ability to function. Illegal drugs, prescription, and over-the-counter medications are all capable of both causing damage and masking damage. They all bear potentially serious capacity to harm your voice.

Some wise words from the song "Cuz I Got High" for overworking brains asking "what if":

I'm gonna stop singing this song, because I'm high
I'm singing this whole thing wrong, because I'm high
And if I don't sell one copy I know why, (why man) 'cuz I'm high,
because I'm high, because I'm high

 

[Aniram]

The Cascio vocalist also doesn't sound really rough like ivy says they would if they were under drug use.

 

[Chamife]

We all know the names of other world famous artists who had serious problems with drugs (also alcohol), which eventually led to their death. Yet they are still recognizable on their albums as far as I know.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

ps : you could at least thank me that I'm giving you something new to discuss and debunk or would you prefer the non active thread that no one posts and pictures monkey balls?

Thank you Ivy. We're bunch of cerebrally disabled people without new discussions brought to this thread.

 

[ivy]

Thank you Ivy.

Thanks Bumper. I'm doing my best to avoid the monkey balls on this thread. It takes work and effort but it's so worth it.

 

[StellaJackson]

I guess I'm the only one that heard the recording that Murray did when Michael was under the influence and sounded totally different.

Can we at least be realistic? I'm assuming that everyone at least had a cold / flu and sounded hoarse and different in their life. It's quite unrealistic to say that "feeling unwell, under the influence etc" wouldn't make a person sound different. It does.

Despite being under the influence, he still sounded recognisable as MJ. The accent and pronounciation etc was still his. The Cascio vocals aren't tired or strained. They are full out vocals and share no resemblance to MJ. The Murray recording, despite how bad Michael sounds, is still easily recognisable as MJ. It's like when Michael did a cockney accent at the start of the Bashir programme (UK broadcast only) or when he put on a fake voice during the Ralphige prank call. Everything that makes his voice is still there. It it totally absent from the Cascio tracks.

 

[StellaJackson]

Well That's Big difference becuase MJ was drugged under the influence of propoful, of course he would sound different. No one is saying MJ couldnt sound different. But he always sounded like MJ. Even in that tape couls hear MJ. I just dont feel that tape of Murray's is a good expample to use in this discussion. He wasnt recording music. Plus there is no evidence Michael was even in ill health during his time at the Casico's.

I didnt know you subscribe to the theory that Michael sounded different becuase was not well when recording these songs. Im not saying being ill can't make one sound different. But I dont think his health would place such a weird goat sounding vibrato on his voice. It is clear it was artificially maniplulated by the Casico's. Even Riley said it was.

Being the perfectionist Michael was it is my opinion he wouldn't even be recording songs if he felt his health was making his voice sound distorted. He never was in any hurry, He just wanted it perfect. Why would he change just for those songs

The vibrato isn't the result of artificial manipulation. Teddy Riley claimed he caused it himself but it as proven that he was lying as the vibrato is on all 12 songs, including the three and a half he worked on, since long before he got his hands on them.

 

[ivy]

I need to run out now but before I go I wanted to thank to the people that took the time to respond and discuss this without turning it into a "you" thing. See you later alligators.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Whenever this thread falls asleep, play:

and the debate will be re-ignited...

 

[StellaJackson]

What would the potential outcome be if it were proven beyond any doubt that the songs are fake? Serious question. It would be a huge media scandal. Could it affect the future of the deal between the Estate and Sony? Worth thinking about.

 

[qbee]

Your welcome Thank you for bringing something new to the thread


But I have a different theory of what IF's .. That doesn't lay so heavy on my heart.
What IF Michael's voice sounded different becuase of what the Casicos were feeding him for lunch

Sorry I just couldnt resist. That discussion was so heavy .. I needed some comic releif

 

[Arklove]

^^:rofl:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Your welcome Thank you for bringing something new to the thread


But I have a different theory of what IF's .. That doesn't lay so heavy on my heart.
What IF Michael's voice sounded different becuase of what the Casicos were feeding him for lunch

Sorry I just couldnt resist. That discussion was so heavy .. I needed some comic releif

Some monkey balls?

 

[Aniram]

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

^^:rofl:

Shut up, you don't even know why you are here

 

[Arklove]

Shut up, you don't even know why you are here

Shut up, or I'll reinfect you with shutupitis

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Shut up, or I'll reinfect you with shutupitis

I think that your best contribution to this topic is when you buckle up