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Joe Jackson on Spanking Kept Michael Out Of Gangs When He Was A Kid

JMie said:
And he continues to abuse him by fighting for the money from the Estate which Michael didn't want him to have.
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And he's also abusing Michael's Children with his actions!!!!!!!
 
Maybe Joe contributed to Michael's death - a fact he would never admit to.
 
pilinlim said:
Joe never did anything to Michael out of love. He didn't "spank" Michael because he wanted the best for him, so this gang argument is nothing but an excuse to put sand in the eyes of the public. It's nothing but a made up and false excuse to portray the "though love and disciplinarian" father who spanked his kids in order to put them "in line". My parents spanked me because they wanted the best for me. I deserved it! With Joe it's a different story. This man beat the life out of his children to the point Katherine would scream "You'll kill them.". Joe, a former boxer, would brutalize his children with everything he had. He'd hit them with ALL his strength and he enjoyed being violent with his children.

Joe never beat Michael because he wanted him to behave, avoid gangs and all that stuff. Joe never does anything that doesn't help Joe. He beat the life out of his children for no reason other than being blind by greed and driven by jealousy.

This man would strip his children (as a form of humiliation), oil them (so that they could feel the pain better) and beat them with anything he had in hand as hard as humanly possible. Then, he would put salt in their wounds so that they would feel even more pain. He would, at the same time, scream the most mean spirited insults one can imagine. Claiming he did this in order to keep them "in line" is ridiculous. Joe would never do anything that benefited people other than himself and doing such thing for his kids' good would imply he was concerned about them. Well, he wasn't. Joe did this because he saw his children as nothing but slaves whose only goal in life should be making him money. Joe did this because, in is mind, his children were slaves who should think about making him money 24/7. So, he tortured them simply because, after ten hours of rehearsals, his children- who worked for him and were the sole breadwinners of the family- dared to miss a dance step or a note. He beat the life out of his children simply because they dared to complain they wanted to play instead of being exploited by their father 24/7. He beat the life out of them simply because they dared to complain their feet was aching after ten straight hours of rehearsals.

And then you have the fact that Joe treated his children like dogs. You also have the fact that he emotionally and verbally tortured them. You also have the fact that he harassed Michael on a daily basis.

Joe ain't no "old school" father. He is a damn abuser and monster who should be in jail.
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I'ts sad to hear this. And why was it Michael he abused the most? I know he abused the others but all I have read was Michael. I can see why in Adult life, Michael had become estranged and deffinately in pain.:(
 
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Tsukiji said:
When you say "it's OK to physically harm children" are you saying that electrical cords/swtiches are OK? Because that's what I'm talking about here you know
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If it's done within the limits, with proper strength and out of love and wanting the best for one's child, physically harming a minor is not, in my point of view, incorrect.

The thing is: Joe surpassed every limit there was to surpass (even the limit for torturers), was sadistic and psycopathycally cruel and did that out of love for himself. He couldn't care less about his children's well being. Hell, the only reason he didn't want his children in gangs was because, if they entered one, it would be more difficult to make money off of them. Not because he was worried about them.


On a more personal approach: I would never hit my child with an electrical cord/switch.
 
pilinlim said:
If it's done within the limits, with proper strength and out of love and wanting the best for one's child, physically harming a minor is not, in my point of view, incorrect.

The thing is: Joe surpassed every limit there was to surpass (even the limit for torturers), was sadistic and psycopathycally cruel and did that out of love for himself. He couldn't care less about his children's well being. Hell, the only reason he didn't want his children in gangs was because, if they entered one, it would be more difficult to make money off of them. Not because he was worried about them.


On a more personal approach: I would never hit my child with an electrical cord/switch.
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I agree with you about Joe basically just surpassing the limit of his abuse..nobody can defend him for the things he did..nobody.

As far as any physical abuse to a child..well were getting into a whole different debate here..one that's been going on for a long time..For me I don't understand at all physically harming a child..Because physically harming a child is all about creating fear so the child won't do something you don't want him to do.Not to get to philosophical but the whole Machiavellian way of using fear to get children to get them to not do things is not right to me..I don't consider some spanking any sort of abuse at all (even though I don't really like that either) ,but when you get into people using items like an Electrical cord..then that's when it crosses a line to me..
 
Tsukiji said:
I agree with you about Joe basically just surpassing the limit of his abuse..nobody can defend him for the things he did..nobody.

As far as any physical abuse to a child..well were getting into a whole different debate here..one that's been going on for a long time..For me I don't understand at all physically harming a child..Because physically harming a child is all about creating fear so the child won't do something you don't want him to do.Not to get to philosophical but the whole Machiavellian way of using fear to get children to get them to not do things is not right to me..I don't consider some spanking any sort of abuse at all (even though I don't really like that either) ,but when you get into people using items like an Electrical cord..then that's when it crosses a line to me..
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Joe surpassed the limit of torture. The man brutally destroyed his children. He tortured them in every form, shape and way.


I understand your opinion. Harming a child physically inputs fear in them rather than respect.
 
Also, what some of you are describing is not what I heard coming from MJ's mouth about what went down. i don't recall him ever describing being beaten like a wild animal. That is your take on it. That's fine. Take it as you please, but don't attack others for feeling differently. Perhaps I need to go reread some of what he said or relisten but I don't get that impression. I got the impression it was the psychological effects of it all as opposed to the forms of beatings themselves. People are spanked like that all the time and they think nothing of it later. Why? Because people develop in different ways. Children are not cookie cutter. For someone as sensitive as MJ this was probably too much for him to bear. I think good parents in tune with their children realize this. As I said, what is abuse for one child, is nothing for another because we are all differnt.
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so you are saying that it is normal for a parent to beat their child with a sock filled with wet sand, so it doesn't leave bruises? Or to strip a child naked, oil him and hit him with a cord?? Are you justifying that? Even if it happens once, it's horrible. Children should not be treated like that. That's bad parenting.

And of course, Joe is finding excuses for himself and calls his actions "spanking". Just fyi, this is what wikipedia says:

Spanking is a form of corporal punishment commonly used to discipline a toddler, child, teenager, and in some cultures women. It typically consists of an adult striking the child's bottom in reaction to poor behavior, with either an open hand or an implement, without producing physical injury.[
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Nowhere at all it mentions salt, oil, cords, etc.

As for Michael not talking about it. Of course, he never did. He was too polite and too shy and too generous towards his father. Michael never spoke bad about Joe in public. All the real stuff we know comes from his private conversations with people he trusted enough to open up about this sensitive subject. So we can't really know what exactly Michael felt about Joe in the final years. We'll know only if more private info is ever made public. And now the only confirmation of Michael's true feelings is his will. Joe is not included in it for a reason.
 
so who was talking in the schmuley tapes , in the conversation with the ghostwriter of moonwalk then if not michael. michael surely didnt speak about all the love he got from joseph.when he discribed how he had to throw up everytime he sw him. how he hated to be near joseph etc etc . xrz ppl are still eager to downplay his very own words, what a shame, but I cant say Im shocked at this behavior displayed.
so you are saying that it is normal for a parent to beat their child with a sock filled with wet sand, so it doesn't leave bruises? Or to strip a child naked, oil him and hit him with a cord?? Are you justifying that? Even if it happens once, it's horrible. Children should not be treated like that. That's bad parenting.
As for Michael not talking about it. Of course, he never did. He was too polite and too shy and too generous towards his father. Michael never spoke bad about Joe in public. All the real stuff we know comes from his private conversations with people he trusted enough to open up about this sensitive subject. So we can't really know what exactly Michael felt about Joe in the final years. We'll know only if more private info is ever made public. And now the only confirmation of Michael's true feelings is his will. Joe is not included in it for a reason.
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exactly

personally I feel the reason some ppl here deny this ever took place is b/c it would destroy whatever illusions they had of these ppl, though I dont get it as I think that there is nothing left to destroy the truth has come out and will continue to come out even further.
 
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Ok, I just relistened to the Geraldo interview from 2005. It is on youtube. I will post the link. (I will edit the link in afterwards.)
I believe later in life, his views had changed. i think he realizes Joe did the best he could based on his knowledge. I am not going to sit here and condemn this man for that.

now as for Joe's present misfortunate sayings and doings, well I cannot defend those. But I do realize that as you get older, you do not always feel the same. I think some people will not move on from that even if Michael did. And if they won't so be it. I cannot say some one should. We are all different! What strikes a chord with one person is nothing with another. Because of their own experiences some will have a harder time overlooking this particular fault.

I do remember interviews where MJ spoke about his father and he was in tears. I know for his sweet nature, it was too much what Joe did. I am glad his children were able to help him with that. Carrying that around for decades must have worn on him so much. But I ma sure he felt such a release when he could let it go.
 
ginvid said:
Ok, I just relistened to the Geraldo interview from 2005. It is on youtube. I will post the link. (I will edit the link in afterwards.)
I believe later in life, his views had changed. i think he realizes Joe did the best he could based on his knowledge. I am not going to sit here and condemn this man for that.

now as for Joe's present misfortunate sayings and doings, well I cannot defend those. But I do realize that as you get older, you do not always feel the same. I think some people will not move on from that even if Michael did. And if they won't so be it. I cannot say some one should. We are all different! What strikes a chord with one person is nothing with another. Because of their own experiences some will have a harder time overlooking this particular fault.

I do remember interviews where MJ spoke about his father and he was in tears. I know for his sweet nature, it was too much what Joe did. I am glad his children were able to help him with that. Carrying that around for decades must have worn on him so much. But I ma sure he felt such a release when he could let it go.
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True, I'm not sure if we can say if Michael forgave him or not, but one thing we know is Michael never forgot what he done to him...As JMie said, Joe is not in the will for a reason which is a very telling sign of Michael's feelings towards him.
 
Tsukiji said:
True, I'm not sure if we can say if Joe forgave him or not, but one thing we know is Michael never forgot what he done to him...As JMie said, Joe is not in the will for a reason which is a very telling sign of Michael's feelings towards him.
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just like the rest of the gang, they were left out for a reason as well, but then again normally siblings dont expect to be in the will of a sibling who has got his very own family.
 
I think its obvious that some of us such as JMie, plinlim, Tsukji, etc and myself see harm in what Joseph did and other such as Ginvid, blueocean, Moulin rouge (?), dont, see any harm whatsoever at all, I guess it all boils down to the fact that Michael was scared for life due to Josephs antics. So everything else really doesnt matter anymore. Michael has passed away while Joeseph is shamelessly going after Michaels estate, that alone says more about his character than anything.,, Im sure all of u know the saying ''one in a million', well Michael was 'one in a dozen'' totally different from the rest of his relatives
 
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Wasn't there an interview where MJ discussed Joe & the abuse?

I don't think I imagined that one.... MJ asked Janet how she'd feel about Joe dying, and sJanet replied she wouldn't cry. This little tidbit tells me everything I need about Joe.
 
I think times were different back then when MJ grew up in Gary. But I also remember the beatings continued on when they moved to California. If you watch the Jacksons An American Dream it shows what Joe was like to his kids. Its a part of Michaels life that stayed with him for a very long time. But I dont think Joe knew any better when he was raising his kids and even now dosent realise what he did was wrong.
 
I'll comment on this by adding my own personal experiences. I come from a culture that historically spanking is seen normal and common. (although every new generation experiences it less and less).

I also experienced spanking myself (and witnessed siblings/cousins/friends etc get spanked as well). For example I do remember getting spanked for trying cigarettes or alcohol or talking back to my parent, rejecting their authority etc. and yes I got disciplined for those kinds of behavior by which included among other things - spanking.

However years later when I grew up and became an adult and looked back to those events I was able to see the "reason", see my mistake, realize that it was for my own good. I know that my parents didn't spank me just because they felt like it or whenever they felt like it, I know that it was because of what I did. I know that there was a legit reason. In my personal opinion what I experienced was definitely not child abuse and I do not have any negative feelings towards my parents. ( and as far as I can tell neither does any of my cousins/ friends etc who experienced similar things in their childhoods as they can also see a "reason" behind this kind of discipline.)

Now knowing and reading all the statements done by Michael, I personally do not think that Michael could look to the past and say "yes I deserved it and it was for my own good". He simply didn't feel that way.

Some points to consider

1. Michael was 10 when Jackson's signed the contract with Motown. and yes he was performing with his brothers since he was 5 years old. I really do not think that he was in a high risk group to join a gang between 5-10 years old and while he was practicing/ performing with his brothers all the time.

So was Joe spanking Michael when he was 7 years old so that he wouldn't join a gang when he was 12 years old?

Even this was the case there was no need IMO. Watching an older brother getting spanked would be enough to get the message across. Saying to the younger kids that "let this be a lesson to you as well, if you do anything similar you know what's going to happen" and believe me it would stay with you. Kids do learn from example.

2. Also let's remember when Michael said that Joseph sat in a chair with a belt in his hand as he and his siblings rehearsed and that "if you didn't do it the right way, he would tear you up, really get you".

How could "miss a step and I'll hit you" equals to "stay out of gangs"?

Plus how about "he would tear you up, really get you" part?

My personal experience (both from myself and cousins/friends) that none of us were "tore up" by our parents. It was spanking buttock, hitting the palm of our hands, under our feet etc that wouldn't hurt more than few minutes with no bruises etc. When I look back to spanking/beating that I personally experienced , I can see that my parents goal wasn't to hurt me physically - on the contrary they held back and used appropriate force. I never felt that my parents were out to get me. Michael's this statement alone demonstrates that inappropriate force was being used.

3. and what about the emotional abuse? I really cannot see how calling a child "big nose" or similar things would help to keep them out of trouble..

As a result although I can understand (and not really against) spanking myself, I think that Joe used unnecessary force and heavy beatings. Also I think that his claims about the reasons for those beatings (gangs and jail) isn't truthful and doesn't explain why he would beat his kids based on their musical performances or why would he include verbal insults to the mix. And as I said before I personally do not think that Michael was able to look back and feel that those spankings (or call it what you want) was justified. Perhaps that's the most important point in this whole debate.


Side note: what is abuse or not, what is normal and acceptable changes dramatically from person to person in these issues. there are several factors such as culture and location where you grew up that has an affect on how you perceive these things. Plus you need add personality into the mix. For some people spanking while they were a child could mean nothing but a sensitive person (such as Michael) could have been severely affected by such behavior.
 
^ Joe did a lot worse than "spanking". He beat and abused them. Michael's words.
 
ivy said:
and that's my whole point in the above post. :)
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Oh my bad! I thought by saying "For some people spanking while they were a child could mean nothing but a sensitive person (such as Michael) could have been severely affected by such behavior. " you were implying that's the only thing that happened to Michael. nvm
 
sharon007 said:
I think times were different back then when MJ grew up in Gary. But I also remember the beatings continued on when they moved to California. If you watch the Jacksons An American Dream it shows what Joe was like to his kids. Its a part of Michaels life that stayed with him for a very long time. But I dont think Joe knew any better when he was raising his kids and even now dosent realise what he did was wrong.
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I agree. He didn't know any better. Joe doled out what he got as a kid himself. BUT, when you think of the extent of his "spankings", you still shudder and wonder how he could go as far as he did on his own children. Spanking them is one thing, but Joe literally beat his children until as Michael said, Katherine yelled at him, "stop, Joe, you're killing him". That's one of the dangers of that kind of disciplining, you lose control and the spanking becomes more about venting frustations and anger and personal demons that have nothing to do with the child himself and certainly not some childhood offense.

I'm sure the majority of parents who literally killed their children did not purposely intend to do so, the fear of prison alone would be deterrent, but when you lose it as Joe apparently did, you have no control and tragedy happens.


I also think it is one thing to spank a kid to stop them from sticking their hand in a fire versus hitting them because they missed a music note or didn't do a dance step right.

I'm glad the Jacksons had a strong father, but Joe was a unapologetic brute.
 
I want to say that I am not sure what neighborhoods other members of the board grew up in - Maybe my neighborhood was real rough. (Not maybe actually, it was)- But I remember kids very young being drafted by gangs. I remember a story of a 6 year old being gunned down because gangs liked to target very young kids to deliver drugs for them and "do work" for them so if they were caught, they would not be in trouble. In our family we had code words so that we knew if something we were told to do by others came from my mother or another family member as opposed to a stranger. I guess this is why I do understand and do not doubt Joe's words. My next door neighbor was a drug dealer. Some stabbed man was running up and down our streets screaming. This are images I have so clearly in my head. So many people in the world are so fortunate to not be privy to the kinds of things that people have to live with in their everyday lives. Some places, it is almost impossible to keep your children away from such negative influences. And it is easy in your own comfortable surroundings and world to point the finger at someone else and judge them from afar.

I think Joe went overboard, but I can say I understand. Now the emotional and mental abuse. I don't think there is any reason for that. And I also think, even if you feel like you are disciplining your children for one reason, if you are not clear for the reason you are spanking them for, than why do it. what lesson will they learn? They won't associate the wrong action with the spanking, they will just view it as abusive. I do think the spankings for missing notes was excessive. And I also wonder at Joe not regretting anything he did. I think as a loving father, even if you thought you had good intentions, if you knew what you had done hurt your child so much you would at least express regret at that.

I think the story is not cut and dry and in the end it only matters how MJ viewed it regardless of what Joe says his intentions were. Although I can understand his intentions, I don't matter. No one does. Although I think what Joe did haunted him his whole life, I think Mj was finally able later in life to throw down that weight his father put upon him and move on. It forever affected their relationship, but I think MJ could understand more where his father was coming from. Not condone or approve but understand. And I think that made MJ stronger in the long run.
 
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ginvid said:
I want to say that I am not sure what neighborhoods other members of the board grew up in - Maybe my neighborhood was real rough. (Not maybe actually, it was)- But I remember kids very young being drafted by gangs. I remember a story of a 6 year old being gunned down because gangs liked to target very young kids to deliver drugs for them and "do work" for them so if they were caught, they would not be in trouble. In our family we had code words so that we knew if something we were told to do by others came from my mother or another family member as opposed to a stranger. I guess this is why I do understand and do not doubt Joe's words. My next door neighbor was a drug dealer. Some stabbed man was running up and down our streets screaming. This are images I have so clearly in my head. So many people in the world are so fortunate to not be privy to the kinds of things that people have to live with in their everyday lives. Some places, it is almost impossible to keep your children away from such negative influences. And it is easy in your own comfortable surroundings and world to point the finger at someone else and judge them from afar.
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That's just it. Sometimes it is impossible to keep children away from negative influences. If a kid is drafted in a gang, his father can beat him to stay out of it, but that doesn't mean the gang isn't beating him too because he isn't joining.

And lets not forget, MJ's "Bad." The song was derived from the story of a kid who went out of the neighborhood to school and when he came back to his neighborhood, he was killed by gang members because he wasn't one of them. The kids father beating him too certainly wouldn't have helped.

There are no easy answers in these kinds of situations. A strong father can make a big difference, but that doesn't mean he has to be an abuser, and that's what Joe was.
 
JMie said:
As for Michael not talking about it. Of course, he never did. He was too polite and too shy and too generous towards his father. Michael never spoke bad about Joe in public. All the real stuff we know comes from his private conversations with people he trusted enough to open up about this sensitive subject. So we can't really know what exactly Michael felt about Joe in the final years. We'll know only if more private info is ever made public. And now the only confirmation of Michael's true feelings is his will. Joe is not included in it for a reason.
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Michael DID talk publicy about it. The Bashir documentary. Michael talked how Joe would TEAR him up with an iron cord and pretty much everything he could get his hands on. Joe used to practice them with a belt in his hand and if they missed a step, he would tear them up. Michael says how Joe used to throw him up against the wall. He says how scared he was of Joe and that half of the time, Joe couldnt catch him, but when he could, it was really really bad. He would vomit just by seeing him. He says he had a strong hate against his father. He says how he were not allowed to call him daddy, he had to say Joe. He mentioned how Joe used to tease him about his looks/appearance, saying he had a big fat nose. Michael himself says he just wanted to die and on top of it all, he had to go and perform infront of hundrends and thousands of people. He felt for like saying to him "Thanks for making me feel better".

It heartbreaking to watch Michael describe and talk about Joe's beating and teasing. Although he also says that he has forgive Joe in the very same interview, it is clear how much Joes action caused Michael pain that would last for a long long time.
 
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ginvid said:
I want to say that I am not sure what neighborhoods other members of the board grew up in - Maybe my neighborhood was real rough. (Not maybe actually, it was)- But I remember kids very young being drafted by gangs. I remember a story of a 6 year old being gunned down because gangs liked to target very young kids to deliver drugs for them and "do work" for them so if they were caught, they would not be in trouble. In our family we had code words so that we knew if something we were told to do by others came from my mother or another family member as opposed to a stranger. I guess this is why I do understand and do not doubt Joe's words. My next door neighbor was a drug dealer. Some stabbed man was running up and down our streets screaming. This are images I have so clearly in my head. So many people in the world are so fortunate to not be privy to the kinds of things that people have to live with in their everyday lives. Some places, it is almost impossible to keep your children away from such negative influences. And it is easy in your own comfortable surroundings and world to point the finger at someone else and judge them from afar.

I think Joe went overboard, but I can say I understand. Now the emotional and mental abuse. I don't think there is any reason for that. And I also think, even if you feel like you are disciplining your children for one reason, if you are not clear for the reason you are spanking them for, than why do it. what lesson will they learn? They won't associate the wrong action with the spanking, they will just view it as abusive. I do think the spankings for missing notes was excessive. And I also wonder at Joe not regretting anything he did. I think as a loving father, even if you thought you had good intentions, if you knew what you had done hurt your child so much you would at least express regret at that.

I think the story is not cut and dry and in the end it only matters how MJ viewed it regardless of what Joe says his intentions were. Although I can understand his intentions, I don't matter. No one does. Although I think what Joe did haunted him his whole life, I think Mj was finally able later in life to throw down that weight his father put upon him and move on. It forever affected their relationship, but I think MJ could understand more where his father was coming from. Not condone or approve but understand. And I think that made MJ stronger in the long run.
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Oh my goodness!! Are you in my brain or what?!

That's the gist of my point I made earlier in this thread. The age of 5, 6, 7 and 8 are not all THAT young in certain neighborhoods. There are neighborhoods where kids as young as 6, 7 and 8 are targeted or courted by gangs and drug dealers to do their 'dirty work' for them because these parisites know young kids have a better advantage due to their young age. Young kids are less likely to get caught by police and even if they do get caught, because of being a minor, they are not likely to get charged for peddling drugs. That kind of thing was happening in the 'hood even during the Jackson's time in Gary Indiana; and it's even worse now. There was an 8 year old boy that used to live across the street from me that sold drugs---and his father was absent--in jail himself. That's why I said although I believe Joe went too far with the physical discipline, I understand why he felt the need to do what he did. It wasn't just ALL about missing dance steps. Like someone mentioned earlier, when the Jacksons were still in Gary, Tito was almost recruited into a gang. This had to be during the time the Jackson brothers were rehearsing and performing before their Motown days. What makes anyone on here think Michael or Marlon would not be targeted--even though they were much younger?
 
Vici said:
It heartbreaking to watch Michael describe and talk about Joe's beating and teasing. Although he also says that he has forgive Joe in the very same interview, it is clear how much Joes action caused Michael pain that would last for a long long time.
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^^^^It was also very heartbreaking to hear MJ add to that admission, "Jjoseph, please don't be mad at me". I tear up just thinking about that segment in the interview.
 
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enlightenu said:
What makes anyone on here think Michael or Marlon would not be targeted--even though they were much younger?
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What makes anyone think because Joe beat them they would not join IF they were given certain ultimatimums by the gang. When there's the choice of getting beat by your father versus getting beat by multiple people, many youths will take that father beating than the gangs. And many of the most vicious gang members are those who were regularly beaten. That's why there is so much talk about it these days to deter parents from bestowing the kind of "spanking" Joe did.
 
Gary, Indiana is a rough place to live in, even in today's standards, considering the surroundings they were living in the midst of, I can understand Joe disciplining them with spankings, even with a belt in some cases. But I also come from a background where that type of thing is normal, and it's happened to me on numerous occasions as a youth and almost everyone else I know. What I don't agree with is when other objects come into play, shoes, cords, etc. And I believe what Michael said about the whole oil thing, I don't think that's tolerable, even with that said, as children we fear these types of things and the people who do them to you. But as you get older you begin to understand why these things happened, I believe Michael felt this way, as he's even stated he forgave him later in life.

Point is, Joe's claim doesn't excuse everything he's done to Michael in life.
 
Well, I grew up in a rough Brooklyn neighborhood in the projects...can't get any rougher than that. I was raised by my mother only and yes, she could get "physical" with us sometimes. She would mostly threaten us though. Once in a while she would raise her "chankla" to us (Spanglish word for slipper) or threaten us with a belt (rarely used). She was not abusive (though some of my siblings disagree with me). I don't agree with what she did but I don't classify it as abusive. I don't have children myself so my opinion that EVER inflicting physical pain on a child is wrong can be debated, I'm sure.

But what Joe did to Michael (and maybe the others, not sure when they continually deny it) was indeed abusive and forever damaging (it saddens and angers me so much to read those transcripts from the Shmuley and Glenda tapes!!!). That just went far beyond anything acceptable. Maybe Michael was able to forgive but I'm sure he could never forget because that kind of abuse lives with you forever. This Joe was also very cold to Michael, hardly ever showing him love or telling him he loves him. That alone is neglect and abuse. And to hear Joe continually deny this and sugar coat his abuse by saying it was keeping Michael out of gangs. Infuriating!

My father abandoned me when I was about 2 years old. However, I still muster the strength to speak to him over the phone every so often (how he got back into my life is a long story). I still have a lot of resentment for what he did to me, my mother and sister all those years ago. I am still scarred by it. But he's an old man and won't live forever. So I try to put it aside. I guess I can see how Michael may have been able to forgive his father but never forget...possibly.
 
gerryevans said:
^^^^It was also very heartbreaking to hear MJ add to that admission, "Jjoseph, please don't hate me". I tear up just thinking about that segment in the interview.
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I know. Isn't that sad? And he had already been a grown man for many years during that interview. And still scared of and wanting not to anger his father. This is what that kind of abuse can do to a person.
 
^^^^Exactly. But I just realized I got the quote wrong. I think it was "please don't be mad at me." In any event, I just remember being very sad hearing how intimidating and scarey Joe actually was to him.
 
Tsukiji said:
Oh my bad! I thought by saying "For some people spanking while they were a child could mean nothing but a sensitive person (such as Michael) could have been severely affected by such behavior. " you were implying that's the only thing that happened to Michael. nvm
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nope. that part was just to say that we will most probably have different takes on whether spanking is acceptable or not, when it is abusive or not depending on our personality as well as culture and background. Plus also I tried to mean that as a sensitive person Michael could have been more affected by such behavior than a non-sensitive person.

my take on the situation was as follows

As a result although I can understand (and not really against) spanking myself, I think that Joe used unnecessary force and heavy beatings. Also I think that his claims about the reasons for those beatings (gangs and jail) isn't truthful and doesn't explain why he would beat his kids based on their musical performances or why would he include verbal insults to the mix. And as I said before I personally do not think that Michael was able to look back and feel that those spankings (or call it what you want) was justified. Perhaps that's the most important point in this whole debate.
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