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Investigation Wraps Up Next Week

mjdove said:
this wording "complicated" makes me a little bit nervous.

For me it sounds, the evidence might be not enough finally to serve justice ... And I don't get it, it is really better to go to the Grand Jury than to charge Murray directly?
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They were discussing this at FoxNews the other day. They were also saying that it as a complicated case and they basically said that there's a 50-50 chance of it going to trial.

What they said was
-first propofol should be the only factor and nothing should contribute : autopsy results kinda shows this
- secondly even if the propofol is the cause they still have to determine whether it was overprescribing or just an unexpected adverse reaction (unexpected accident) etc..

Therefore it is complicated and why it took so much time and additional doctor reports etc.

I think that going to grand jury is much more safe bet. What will happen is that DA will tell the grand jury the evidence that they have and grand jury will decide whether to charge the doctor or not and what to charge him with. Basically grand jury determines if there is a crime and if there is enough evidence to take it to trial. If they directly charge him and if it turns out they don't have enough evidence the case might be thrown out of court. So once again my guess is that they are playing safe with taking it to grand jury. ( I am by no means a legal expert)
 
A gentle reminder to please be tolerant of one-another, including language use and personal viewpoints. (If you think a post is blatantly disrespectful, hit the report button and staff will adress it, ok? Please treat one-another with care.) These are stressful times, but let's stick together?
 
I think that going to grand jury is much more safe bet
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I remember Grand Jury negatively, 'cause Michael's case was also hold by a Grand Jury.

Grand jury proceedings (without defense and without judge) in Santa Barbara, starting in March 2004, led to Jackson's indictment on April 21, 2004. The grand jury was composed of nineteen jurors; the indictment required the votes of at least twelve jurors. Prosecution witnesses testified without defense cross-examination.
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source: wikipedia
 
About bloody time! I pray Justice is served and the Grand Jury do the right thing by Michael and dr.death is charged, tried for second degree murder and goes away for a very,very longtime.
I pray that Jackson family and all the fans will see justice in this case.
It's going to only get harder though if this goes to trial, but we all need to pull together, for Michael, for his family and to stop this doctor killing anyone else and another family having to suffer the horrendeous grief the Jacksons have had due to the killing of Michael.
 
It may have been negative r/t to Michael's case a few years ago, but in this one it may be exactly what needs to be done to get Murray indicted (or whatever the proper word might be).

Wasn't it Soso that said a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich, or something like that? In this case, I have to think that's what we'd all like to see happen.
 
mjdove said:
I remember Grand Jury negatively, 'cause Michael's case was also hold by a Grand Jury.
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true. let me rephrase. if you want to indict someone grand jury is the safer bet. because they only hear from the DA and they are more likely to indict (even a sandwich yes)...

so yes in this case if you want the doctor's case to go to trial, grand jury is a better and safer bet.

@bgz this is exactly what I was trying to say.
 
starlightdancer said:
I was going to say the same exact thing.

It was TMZ who official pronounced Michael dead FIRST hours befor anyone else. All the other channels were still insisting he was on cardiac arrest. By 5:30 PM, the news chamged their tune and credited TMZ.

Of all the celebs show, I like TMZ the best. They have that no BS policy, where as all the other celeb shows always have a fascade to show. Too much asskissing for the celeb. Not TMZ. :laugh:
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true, they're bratty as hell. rowdy and pissy. I guess if I was a celeb, I'd hate them with a passion. but trustworthy? really? I dunno.
 
bgz said:
It may have been negative r/t to Michael's case a few years ago, but in this one it may be exactly what needs to be done to get Murray indicted (or whatever the proper word might be).

Wasn't it Soso that said a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich, or something like that? In this case, I have to think that's what we'd all like to see happen.
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its the most horrible groundhog experience ever. who would have thought we would come full circle.
 
ivy said:
They were discussing this at FoxNews the other day. They were also saying that it as a complicated case and they basically said that there's a 50-50 chance of it going to trial.

What they said was
-first propofol should be the only factor and nothing should contribute : autopsy results kinda shows this
- secondly even if the propofol is the cause they still have to determine whether it was overprescribing or just an unexpected adverse reaction (unexpected accident) etc..

Therefore it is complicated and why it took so much time and additional doctor reports etc.

I think that going to grand jury is much more safe bet. What will happen is that DA will tell the grand jury the evidence that they have and grand jury will decide whether to charge the doctor or not and what to charge him with. Basically grand jury determines if there is a crime and if there is enough evidence to take it to trial. If they directly charge him and if it turns out they don't have enough evidence the case might be thrown out of court. So once again my guess is that they are playing safe with taking it to grand jury. ( I am by no means a legal expert)
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ivy thanks very much .

now back to the idiot experts :

"overprescribing" or "unexpected adverse reaction" , ohhh really ?

overprescribing means Murray gave mj a lethal amount of propofol that killed him

unexpected adverse reaction : like he stopped breathing which is very very common with the usage of propofol so it is not really "unexpected" , infact it is very much expected and it results in a cardiac arrest and then death .

so what the difference between the two of them ? NOTHING .

they want to make it a "hard case" to prove which is not at all. all they have to show that jury is Murray administred propofol a drug that is very dangerous and with no margin of error with taking into account the drug's manufacturor instructions on the bottles . that is enough evidence to prove Murray did not have any regard to human life and a second degree murder conviction is in the prosecution pocket.
 
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I think since there is no other drug prescribe by other doctor found in MJ's body , the prosecution have really a slam dunk case against Murray .
 
What worries me is that there's a chance he could get off... :no:
 
and a preliminary hearing SHOULD BE AVOIDED by a grand jury , why? because in a preliminary hearing the potential jurors will only hear over and over again that the prosecution have no case and murray should walk free ...etc , they will twist everything in favor of murray , no reports of the prosecution case only the defense will be everywhere in the news .

the DA is very aware of the media and their tactics , it helped sneddon big time in 2003 but now the media are against the DA , they want to TRY MJ ONE MORE TIME in a court of public opinion . and a preliminary hearing will be a great opportunity to do so .
 
I dunno........I don't know how I feel about anything. We should'nt be in this damn situation! Michael should be here! he never got any damn justice when he was alive (and I don't call the trial justice as even then regardless of the verdict he was seen as guilty!) and I wonder if it will be the same now.

I can only hope that once and for all MJ gets the vindication that he is due.
 
MJ will never be vindicated because of the media and their lies , we know that already , but at least let's hope Murray also won't be vindicated .
 
ivy said:
They were discussing this at FoxNews the other day. They were also saying that it as a complicated case and they basically said that there's a 50-50 chance of it going to trial.

What they said was
-first propofol should be the only factor and nothing should contribute : autopsy results kinda shows this
- secondly even if the propofol is the cause they still have to determine whether it was overprescribing or just an unexpected adverse reaction (unexpected accident) etc..

Therefore it is complicated and why it took so much time and additional doctor reports etc.

I think that going to grand jury is much more safe bet. What will happen is that DA will tell the grand jury the evidence that they have and grand jury will decide whether to charge the doctor or not and what to charge him with. Basically grand jury determines if there is a crime and if there is enough evidence to take it to trial. If they directly charge him and if it turns out they don't have enough evidence the case might be thrown out of court. So once again my guess is that they are playing safe with taking it to grand jury. ( I am by no means a legal expert)
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The coroner ruled that the manner of death was homicide not accidental death though, so that surely rules out that this was an accident right?
 
homicide means death caused by someone else.

accidental overdose means caused by the deceased himself/herself and was not a suicide action.
 
williamorange1 said:
homicide means death caused by someone else.

accidental overdose means caused by the deceased himself/herself and was not a suicide action.
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Oh so what would happen if Murray just said it was an accident?
 
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I don't know why. But I can't be happy about this. My only hope at this point is that the one who killed Michael doesn't get away with it. But nothing will bring Michael back. And he shouldn't be dead in the first place. That's what really hurts.
 
Also, can there be an accidental death in medical practice or not? Say if a patient was given a treatment and they then died. What are the options for the manner of death?
 
daisydaisy said:
Also, can there be an accidental death in medical practice or not? Say if a patient was given a treatment and they then died. What are the options for the manner of death?
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ofcourse there is and this is what happened here . but what lead actually to the accidental death ?

Murray administered propofol without the medical equipment needed to administer such a dangerous drug , he showed no regard to human life , there is no such a "simple accident " here . propofol is a very very dangerous drug , without equipment the chances of suffering complications which causes death are VERY VERY HIGH . it is not like he did everything by the book and failed , he did not follow the basic instructions provided to administer such a drug and he can't claim he was not aware because this instructions are printed on every bottle/vial , NO ESCAPE . he was aware yet he did not follow them .
 
this is the first time I found anything to explain what is actually " acute propofol intoxication" and it is very interesting to say the least , some one read and explain to us please :


Acute Toxicity



•Pathogenesis

Limited information is available on the acute toxicity of propofol in humans. The IV LD50 of propofol, administered as the emulsion formulation, averaged 53 and 42 mg/kg in mice and rats, respectively, while the oral LD50 of propofol, administered as a solution in soybean oil, was 1230 and 600 mg/kg in mice and rats, respectively.
•Manifestations

Overdosage of propofol would be expected to produce manifestations that principally are extensions of the drug’s pharmacologic and adverse effects. At least 2 fatalities have been reported following intentional self-administration of a 400- or 1600-mg dose of propofol.
•Treatment

In the event of overdosage, therapy with propofol should be discontinued immediately, and appropriate symptomatic therapy initiated. Overdosage of propofol is likely to be associated with cardiorespiratory depression. If respiratory depression occurs, patients require administration of oxygen and institution of artificial ventilation. In addition, for cardiovascular depression, elevation of the lower extremities, increasing the rate of IV fluid administration, and/or use of vasopressors or anticholinergic agents are suggested.
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What does LD50 mean?

LD stands for "Lethal Dose". LD50 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 50% (one half) of a group of test animals. The LD50 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.

Toxicologists can use many kinds of animals but most often testing is done with rats and mice. It is usually expressed as the amount of chemical administered (e.g., milligrams) per 100 grams (for smaller animals) or per kilogram (for bigger test subjects) of the body weight of the test animal. The LD50 can be found for any route of entry or administration but dermal (applied to the skin) and oral (given by mouth) administration methods are the most common.
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williamorange1 said:
this is the first time I found anything to explain what is actually " acute propofol intoxication" and it is very interesting to say the least , some one read and explain to us please :








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Thanks for posting this! I honestly don't understand it very well either, but it just proves that Murray lied when he said he administered 25mg of Propofol, when we all know the cause of death was LETHAL amounts of Propofol. 25mg of Propofol woudn't even kill a mouse.
 
how dose the dose went from 25-50 mg to probably 400 or maybe even above 1000mg ?
 
Finally.
I'll be praying for Michael. I truly hope justice is served.
 
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