Four Years Left for Global Warming Action!

[Bo G]

"I'm a warrior" (2005)

...[T]he international global warming phenomenon... it's never too late.
It's been described as a runaway train;
if we don't stop it, we'll never get it back.
So we have to fix it, now." (2007)

"This is an adventure. Give your all. Let's take care of the planet.
We've got four years to get it right," or it's "irreversible."
"I have an important message to give." (2009)

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In the film "This Is It," Michael stands in a circle with his team; most hold hands. He softly but firmly looks around at all of them, then says: "This is an adventure. Give your all. Let's take care of the planet. We've got four years to get it right," he says, or it's "irreversible." "I have an important message to give, OK?"

Michael Bearden, the music supervisor for "This Is It," told an interviewer that MJ would say to him: "If we don't stop doing what we're doing with global warming and the Earth and how we're treating each other ... it could be irreversible in four years or five years..." Bearden went on to explain: "So, 'This Is It' meant to him that this is it: We don't have much longer to save the planet, to heal the world." (From: Michael Jackson Wanted This Is It Shows To Warn About Global Warming)

MJ told Ebony Magazine in his December 2007 interview that his primary concern about the state of the world today was global warming, which he described as a "runaway train." (more downthread .

The world broadly agrees now that global warming is the single greatest threat to the planet. Global warming -- climate change -- means dying forests and coral reefs, Arctic melting, drought, worsening storms, sea level rise, populated islands underwater, lost coastal wildlife habitat, mass species extinction, starvation and drought. There's been a lot of talk here about rainforest destruction, which MJ depicts in This Is It -- this is one of many causes of global warming. I know, I know, you're probably feeling something like this right now: :wild: Please don't feel overwhelmed -- there's no need. We're all in this together!

For several reasons, four years is a crucial deadline for action on global warming, and I've provided the links below. Folks, it's moving WAY too slowly! :timer: After Michael died we hit a bump in the road and it's even more urgent than he realized. I'll explain that further down.

These will be political decisions, and I know a lot of you feel that's something that you can't affect. IT'S NOT TRUE. YOU ARE VERY POWERFUL. WE CAN STOP OR GREATLY SLOW THIS. unk:

We can't all be expected to be climate scientists; I'm an environmental scientist, and hell, I don't understand it. But what I DO know is that EVERY MAJOR SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD is in agreement that this is real, it's the most urgent catastrophe facing humanity, and we must act NOW. Well hell, when I hear that, I pay attention, and even I set aside my skepticism. (Some of you may know I'm an incorrigible skeptic :cheeky: )

You can start TODAY helping carry out Michael's mission in even the smallest ways. Try to have a 2-pronged approach: 1) in your personal lifestyle, and 2) "making that change" in the world beyond ourselves.

PERSONAL LIFESTYLE

To keep this post from being even longer than it is, I'm going to leave that to others who are posting excellent suggestions on this topic in other threads. Feel free to link to those threads from here or add your own ideas.

MEDIA AWARENESS :bs
You all know how biased and just plain stupid the media can be. To get more viewers, their favorite tactic is to turn every show into The Two Arguing Heads. :fencing: :argue: People love this for some reason. That means on every debate on global warming, they need one for and one against. They have to really scrape the barrel to find someone for the skeptic side, but they always find one -- it's almost always either someone funded by the petroleum industry or a scientist that never subjects his or her work to peer review.

This keeps giving the public the wrong impression that scientists are split on whether global warming is real, or whether humans are making a significant contribution. THEY'RE NOT!!!! This is the "equal weight" error in journalism. (Just like for every positive thing a media rep says about MJ, some mistakenly think that means they have to say something negative to be "balanced." That's not balance, that's journalistic inaccuracy.)

Be on the lookout for this journalistic screwup. Point it out to your friends. It's what's made Fox, MSNBC and CNN "news" so popular, and reasonable people are tearing their hair out!

Grist Magazine is a great online magazine that gets emailed to you and is free. It looks at environmental issues, with short summaries of news on global warming and environmental politics, in a lighthearted, often funny, easy-to-handle way that nontechnical folks can digest. :wub:

PUBLIC OPINION honetalk:

Political decisions are driven to a large extent by public opinion. And every single one of us can play a significant role both in public opinion and which politicians get to make the decisions. If MJ fans all did a little bit to affect the opinion of those around us, whether it be in conversation, joining a local rally, or writing letters to the editor, it would make a HUGE difference.

Local governments and state governments are making decisions all the time about the role they're going to play in global warming. Find out what those are and see if you can help support them.

VOTING AND POLITICS :salut: :shakehands

As for choosing what politicians are going to make these crucial decisions, some may come up for election within the next four years. But we definitely know that in two or so years, the primary candidates for President will start campaigning. We can't wait till then to affect people's voting decisions. Voting awareness about the environment must be happening now. Be sure you're registered to vote. Become politically aware, sign up at your local party office -- they're doing rallies and events on the issues already. If you're too young to vote, talk to your parents, and you can still go to events.

FOR U.S. CITIZENS -- THE LATEST BUMP IN THE ROAD :doh: :banghead

A critical global agreement on global warming to cut greenhouse gas emissions has long been set to be signed in Copenhagen this December. The US is looking as if it may not go along with it. AAGHH!!! :bugeyed If we don't get that agreement in place, it's going to be much more difficult to make that deadline. So we've gotten even further off track than he realized, and our help is needed even more urgently.

LINKS ON FOUR-YEAR DEADLINE FOR GLOBAL WARMING ACTION :reading::reading::reading:

U.N. Chief Seeks More Climate Change Leadership
November 18, 2007

Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, describing climate change as “the defining challenge of our age,” released the final report of a United Nations panel on climate change here on Saturday and called on the United States and China to play “a more constructive role.”
[...]
“If there’s no action before 2012, that’s too late,” said Rajendra Pachauri, a scientist and economist who heads the IPCC. “What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.”

The Observer, Sunday 18 January 2009

'We have only four years left to act on climate change - America has to lead'

Jim Hansen is the 'grandfather of climate change' and one of the world's leading climatologists. In this rare interview in New York, he explains why President Obama's administration is the last chance to avoid flooded cities, species extinction and climate catastrophe...

Posted 12:54 PM on 8 Oct 2007
by David Roberts

BARACK OBAMA'S PLAN TO MAKE AMERICA A GLOBAL ENERGY LEADER

Re-Engage with the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC):

As the world prepares for the post-2012 phase of the UNFCCC, the United States must regain its leadership role in multiple forums to negotiate effective climate agreements. This requires re-engagement with the diplomatic efforts under the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change. The UNFCCC process is the main international forum dedicated to addressing the climate problem and an Obama administration will work constructively within it.

Arctic summers ice-free 'by 2013'
By Jonathan Amos
Science reporter, BBC News, San Francisco
12 December 2007

Arctic summer melting in 2007 set new records

Scientists in the US have presented one of the most dramatic forecasts yet for the disappearance of Arctic sea ice.

Their latest modelling studies indicate northern polar waters could be ice-free in summers within just 5-6 years.

Professor Wieslaw Maslowski told an American Geophysical Union meeting that previous projections had underestimated the processes now driving ice loss.

Summer melting this year reduced the ice cover to 4.13 million sq km, the smallest ever extent in modern times.

 

[Pentum]

Nice.. BTW, it's 3 years actually, since it's in 2012. I think MJ said it in 2008, i dunno.

 

[L.T.D]

Nice.. BTW, it's 3 years actually, since it's in 2012. I think MJ said it in 2008, i dunno.

Its nothing to do with the world supposedly ending in 2012!

He said it at the This is It rehearsals, which was this year. 4 years would be 2013. Its nothing to do with the world ending in 2012.

 

[Plasmadaemon]

He said it at the This is It rehearsals, which was this year. 4 years would be 2013. Its nothing to do with the world ending in 2012.

Kind of a moot point then, don’t you think? ;-)

 

[StaceyMJ]

I feel so passionately about this subject. It upsets me because most people I know don't really think about it, or like Michael said, always assume 'they' will sort it out. People need to realise we can make a difference. I don't know, I just feel the world has lost its way.

 

[MJJLaugh]

Bo G, a very inspiring post you wrote here. I was thinking about that too after having seen This Is It but where to start is the big question.

Allow me to post some suggestions for the personal living part:
- save your (plastic) bags and use them several times, take them to the shop
- don't leave the water running when you're brushin your teeth
- buy fruits and vegetables from the season and not shipped from afar
- support ecological, biological grown vegetables and biological diary products
- become a vegetarian!
- take a shower instead of a bath
- for non u.s. citizens: walk, ride your bicycle, use public transportation
- carpool with colleagues
- many governments subsidize solar panels on roofs of houses
- buy a smaller car
- turn off appliances entirely, not in standby mode


I'm sure there are many other things people can do if they want to. Make that change!

I like the suggestion about following the local government on their environmental policies.

 

[Bo G]

Bo G, a very inspiring post you wrote here. I was thinking about that too after having seen This Is It but where to start is the big question.

Allow me to post some suggestions for the personal living part:
- save your (plastic) bags and use them several times, take them to the shop
- don't leave the water running when you're brushin your teeth
- buy fruits and vegetables from the season and not shipped from afar
- support ecological, biological grown vegetables and biological diary products
- become a vegetarian!
- take a shower instead of a bath
- for non u.s. citizens: walk, ride your bicycle, use public transportation
- carpool with colleagues
- many governments subsidize solar panels on roofs of houses
- buy a smaller car
- turn off appliances entirely, not in standby mode


I'm sure there are many other things people can do if they want to. Make that change!

I like the suggestion about following the local government on their environmental policies.

Every one of these is great, MJJLaugh, thanks for posting! A couple expansions on these:

Less meat, YES. I vacillate over the years in my vegetarianism. But I have learned in my activism that many people find it too hard and give up altogether. And are turned off if a guilt trip is laid on them. So I've since focused on encouraging moderation; no need to eat meat at every meal, and it can be a small side dish rather than the entree. (Also, if we eat less meat, we could do away with inhumane factory farms, and let more animals be free range).

Purity issues stop a LOT of people from doing these things -- they think it's all or nothing. So just do whatever you can -- find your own path. Too much worry about being pure can sap energy you're going to need for activism. It's a delicate balance.

On cars, definitely smaller when it's time for that next car! Meanwhile, many think it's better to hang onto whatever vehicle you have (unless it's utterly DREADFUL in emissions and you drive a LOT), drive it into the ground, THEN buy a smaller car or hybrid. Because someone's going to use your current car, and a lot of emissions are produced in manufacturing that new car, even if it's a hybrid.

Keep the ideas coming! And this is a great place to share with us what you're up to personally.

 

[MJ2U]

Hey good to see this on the table here. AS we know from the scientists, the four years is a goal to reach. But we know that our political operatives are playing with the truth.
We are controlled and manipulated and we do not even know it. Do your homework, ask questions and speak up.

MJ was going to be a strong force. Now we have to carry on.

 

[mariemarie]

There are many things we can do to help the planet. The most easiest thing that everyone can do is to recycle. If they don't have places where you can recycle in your area, demand they get one!

Public transport. I know that not everyone have a very good public transport in their area, so driving a car may be your only option, but for those that do leave your car at home and take the metro, buss, tram, bicycle or walk.

Michael have once again managed to inspire us. When I saw the movie and the way he talked about our planet, he spoke directly to me. I have always shared his passion and optimism about what we can do to make it a better place.

 

[dangerous_88]

Nice.. BTW, it's 3 years actually, since it's in 2012. I think MJ said it in 2008, i dunno.

2009
2010
2011
2012

4 years. in a way.

Umm... don't get me wrong please, please please and don't hate me guys, but in a way I want this to happen. (just in a way)

 

[Bo G]

Umm... don't get me wrong please, please please and don't hate me guys, but in a way I want this to happen. (just in a way)

No one will hate you! But do you really want the world to end in 2012? The other set of theories is that some transforming supernatural event will occur, which kinda takes us off the hook for environmental action. And MJ clearly was trying to SPUR environmental action. Both of these are driven by a few astrologers, which is far too iffy a proposition to risk the whole planet on. When thousands of the world's top scientists are saying something different, you need to put the two on a set of scales and see which has more weight.

The year 2012 begins approximately three years, not four, from when Michael said this during TII rehearsal. The global warming deadlines all talk about action by the end of 2012 or in 2013.

All of us are prone to prefer the "sexier," simpler-to-wrap-your-brain-around theories. I'd much rather learn about the Mayan calendar than drowning polar bears. It does take a real act of willpower and personal strength to resist and go with reality, not what we wish were real.

For those really enchanted with the 2012 astrological prophecies, I'd beg you to find a way to COMBINE it with the global warming action deadline in a way that does not take away from doing what you can on it. If we do learn that MJ believed in this (I admit this would disappoint me, though not reduce my love for his artistry), I have little doubt that's exactly what he would do. He was known to keep up with the news, so I'm sure he was aware of the global warming deadlines.

Either way, I promise to keep this thread a "hate-free zone," so don't worry.

 

[movingcoolcat]

I would be extremely happy if Michaels message about this got through to people. I know its so overwhelming, and in many ways it looks almost impossibleto turn this around. But you know the story about how to eat an elephant? You do it one bite at a time...... (not suggesting to eat elephants, but kind of a fitting metaphor).
We make choices every day, about how to get from point A to point B ( transport), what to eat, where to buy our clothes, what to spend our money on, and how to live our lifes. That is, in its simplest form our way of influencing the environment.
Its not only that this world is a beautiful place, and we should keep it that way. This is our home. Its what gives us what we need to survive. There is no other place to go, if this place becomes damaged beyond repair.
There is a lot of good things happening at the moment, but there is also a lot more that needs to be done.
Get involved! If anything would be a fittting tribute to Michael, it would be this: to start to work to create a better world.

 

[callmerose]

I think a lot of us have been concerned about the environment and the state of the planet for years. Michael always was so compassionate about hurting people. I know he is most well known for his work and compassion for children, but he deeply cared about all people young and old. I was thrilled to hear his message about conservation and preventing global climate change.

I am also a scientific researcher. And one thing I have come to realize in the last few years is how the welfare of all people is inexplicably tied to the health of the planet.
The solutions are not simple.

For example. Slash and burn clearing of the rain forest for farming not only devastates the forest, but the land is only good for farming for a few years. Then it erodes away with the rains. The land that is left takes many decades to recover. But the people who clear the land, see no other alternative. They need to make a living, feed their families. So, it is not enough to just protest the destruction of the rain forest, we must also have compassion for the farmer and help him/her to farm in an ecologically sound, sustainable way. It can be done. It has been done in some places. There are organizations like Conservation International and the Nature Conservancy that implement these programs.

I recommend Michael Pollens book The Omnivores Dilema. It is a real eye opener. But not in an alarmist way. And he is an excellent writer.


Who better than Micahel Jackson, to merge conservation and environmental protection with compassion and love for humanity. If he had lived to deliver his message, I think he would have inspired a movement that would have changed the fate of our planet. I am hoping that even though he is not here, his goals can still be accomplished through those of us who loved him.

Thanks for starting this thread Bo G!

 

[Bo G]

I was thrilled to hear his message about conservation and preventing global climate change.

I am also a scientific researcher. And one thing I have come to realize in the last few years is how the welfare of all people is inexplicably tied to the health of the planet.
The solutions are not simple.

...we must also have compassion for the farmer and help him/her to farm in an ecologically sound, sustainable way. It can be done...

I recommend Michael Pollens book The Omnivores Dilema. It is a real eye opener. But not in an alarmist way. And he is an excellent writer.

Who better than Micahel Jackson, to merge conservation and environmental protection with compassion and love for humanity... I am hoping that even though he is not here, his goals can still be accomplished through those of us who loved him.

Awesome post! Your example of the rainforest hot mess is a great one, one that's going down in habitats all over, maybe at a theater near you. It's so intertwined with economics; it's a complexity that requires the absolute best people at the top, and us to put them there. People who can then lead us to help in our own individual ways.

People just rave about that book... it's on my too-long list of must reads this year. And who better than MJ indeed. A global, multicultural, multigenerational icon.

(Why am I not surprised to hear of your work, callmerose...)

 

[Billie_Jean09]

Did anyone see the BBC documentry about the 'Black hole'?
Quantum gravity?
amazing mind blowing documentary.............
MJ cared about our planet............we must too.........
Small things.....small steps..........hopefully it's not too late?
xxx

 

[Bob George]

Another great thing he said, during the Earth Song video, was "people always say 'the government will do it. They'll do it.' They who? It starts with us." That quote stuck with me because I agree with it 100%. If there is a global warming crisis, government can't fix it. What have they ever effectively fixed in the past? We the individuals have to make this world a better place. If anything is going to reverse or minimise the effects of global warming, it's going to be private initiative. Government serves only as a roadblock to people getting things done. If the opposite of pro is con, then the opposite of progress must be congress.

 

[Bo G]

If there is a global warming crisis, government can't fix it. What have they ever effectively fixed in the past?

I could go on for pages listing things the government has effectively fixed. I don't know what country you're in, but in my country (the US) rivers used to run thick and green with raw sewage, or catch fire with toxic pollutants, and the sky used to be near black at times near factories. Until the Clean Water and Clean Air Acts. The National Park System here has preserved a network of wilderness areas that ensure at least some part of America's wildness will belong to all Americans forever. Fishery laws have prevented the near-certain extinction of numerous species. Vaccination programs have ended every parent's nightmarish fear of polio. Smallpox is gone. Hurricane and flood prediction now saves thousands of lives...

I'm just getting warmed up...

But you know, each person will have to choose his or her own path. I certainly agree we should not completely depend on government and absolve ourselves of responsibility. What are your thoughts for how we can encourage the growth of private initiatives? What kind would they be? Do they already exist?

 

[Bo G]

Hey, did you all know about this?

MJ writing a new song about the environment 2 days before his death

Deepak Chopra:

Two days previously he had called me in an upbeat, excited mood. The voice message said, “I’ve got some really good news to share with you.” He was writing a song about the environment, and he wanted me to help informally with the lyrics, as we had done several times before. When I tried to return his call, however, the number was disconnected. (Terminally spooked by his treatment in the press, he changed his phone number often.) So I never got to talk to him, and the music demo he sent me lies on my bedside table as a poignant symbol of an unfinished life.

How awesome is that? I wonder if we'll be hearing more about this?

(P.S. How about let's keep comments about Chopra himself in the Chopra thread...)

 

[movingcoolcat]

Another great thing he said, during the Earth Song video, was "people always say 'the government will do it. They'll do it.' They who? It starts with us." That quote stuck with me because I agree with it 100%. If there is a global warming crisis, government can't fix it. What have they ever effectively fixed in the past? We the individuals have to make this world a better place. If anything is going to reverse or minimise the effects of global warming, it's going to be private initiative. Government serves only as a roadblock to people getting things done. If the opposite of pro is con, then the opposite of progress must be congress.

Bob George- how are you doing? We have been discussing this before;Dso I say this with looooove (quoting Michael):
Lets not make this in to a discussion about government versus private initiativ? I think that only stops us from discussing what can be done.
This time around- lets focus on that?
I am very happy if this quote got stuck with you- I hope it stuck with a lot of people.

 

[PrettyYoungThang]

Another suggestion - if you fly a lot, purchase the carbon offsetting when you book your flight...

Also, avoid products that contain palm oil. They are destroying the rainforest in indonesia and are in almost all processed food products, cosmetics etc.

http://www.palmoilaction.org.au/

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

What he says before and after ES are my fav parts of the whole movie. Michael was always right about everything and I believe in him and think that we really got 4 years and then everything is over. The end is near

 

[Muumi]

Well....the resent studies show the world aint getting any warmer but it is actually getting colder...unlike the fame seeking and highly political researchers are saying. It is also funny how the big research companies who are saying the world is practically being destroyed because of global warming do not want to release their material without a fight. Read about Richard S. Lindzen's research "the Iris hypothesis" and you'll know.

I know the material the main institutions have taken from Finland have been monipulated for political purposes...the charts were shown in in the industry a wrong way around. Besides, it is funny that some of the main charts "quoted" today do not even show the impact of the ice age in northern Europe. The resent and independent studies show that worlds weather temperatures have always changed and the impact the industrialism has on it is about 1 celcius which is about nothing. This is because the athmosphere acts like an iris of the eye...meaning it will maintain the temperature by getting thinner and thicker.

 

[swirly]

It's alll for love We can help change the world we live in, small steps go a long way over 4 years

 

[Bob George]

I could go on for pages listing things the government has effectively fixed. I don't know what country you're in, but in my country (the US) rivers used to run thick and green with raw sewage, or catch fire with toxic pollutants, and the sky used to be near black at times near factories. Until the Clean Water and Clean Air Acts. The National Park System here has preserved a network of wilderness areas that ensure at least some part of America's wildness will belong to all Americans forever. Fishery laws have prevented the near-certain extinction of numerous species. Vaccination programs have ended every parent's nightmarish fear of polio. Smallpox is gone. Hurricane and flood prediction now saves thousands of lives...

I'm just getting warmed up...

But you know, each person will have to choose his or her own path. I certainly agree we should not completely depend on government and absolve ourselves of responsibility. What are your thoughts for how we can encourage the growth of private initiatives? What kind would they be? Do they already exist?

Not to turn this thread into a debate, but there are unfortunately some things I can't just let slide without correcting them.

A lot of major industrialised countries passed Clean Air and Clean Water acts in the second half of the 20th century and in nearly all cases where these types of legislation were passed the results were insignificant compared to the rate that pollution was already decreasing before the new legislation. It was just another case of government taking credit for something that was already happening before government intervention. Pollution levels were decreasing in most countries even before they passed Clean Air and Clean Water acts (The Ultimate Resource, Julian Smith).

And don't give me fishery law. Look at every instance in the world where fish levels have depleted dramatically. These are places were governments have expanded there territorial waters so as to take control of the fisheries creating massive disputes over territorial sea and exclusive economic zone boundaries which has been the real cause of over-fishing and repleting levels of fish. But if the fisheries were owned by a single entity, there'd be an incentive to keep a renewable supply of fish so higher fees would be charged when fish levels got low, reducing the level of fish caught and giving the fish time to repopulate. Free-market principles would have saved fisheries all over the world.

As for vaccinations, what a long and expansive topic. Just keep in mind the number of government provided vaccines that have caused more problems than they were supposed to cure. And the number of tried, tested and proven to work medicines and vaccination that have come out of the private market that government agencies didn't approve. How many lives could have been saved if government got out of the way?

That's all I'm going to say. It's tough to argue with conventional wisdom. It's hard to shift people's faith in government. There have been way smarter people than me trying to do it for years and still the idea that government is saviour is widely held as a conventional wisdom. One of those people was Milton Friedman who said that the free market is hard to get people to side with because it's not in anyone's special interest, it's in the general interest. People are short-sighted. They see the visible benefits of government intervention, but don't see the invisible problems it creates. That's why Adam Smith referred to the "invisible hand" of the free market. You may think there are many visible benefits of government intervening to reverse or minimise the effects of global warming. But be very wary of the invisible, unintended consequences that are almost always suffered when government gets involved in anything.

 

[Bo G]

Well....the resent studies show the world aint getting any warmer but it is actually getting colder...unlike the fame seeking and highly political researchers are saying. It is also funny how the big research companies who are saying the world is practically being destroyed because of global warming do not want to release their material without a fight. Read about Richard S. Lindzen's research "the Iris hypothesis" and you'll know.

I know the material the main institutions have taken from Finland have been monipulated for political purposes...the charts were shown in in the industry a wrong way around. Besides, it is funny that some of the main charts "quoted" today do not even show the impact of the ice age in northern Europe. The resent and independent studies show that worlds weather temperatures have always changed and the impact the industrialism has on it is about 1 celcius which is about nothing. This is because the athmosphere acts like an iris of the eye...meaning it will maintain the temperature by getting thinner and thicker.

Consider the probability that every single major physical science body in the world, including the UN panels of hundreds of the world's top scientists, is in on this conspiracy you suggest to manipulate the data for some nefarious political agenda. Listing these bodies is truly beyond the scope of this thread, but it is worldwide, comprehensive, and sweeping. I have to tell you that this level of agreement in the international science community is stunning and nearly unprecedented for such a major development. It's rather unlikely that at this point they have forgotten to notice the information you provide. I'm personally familiar with a number of them and I can assure you that at least these have reached their conclusions independently, reluctantly, and sadly. Conspiracies this large are infinitesmally improbable.

I would direct you to the greatly respected climate science blog RealClimate.org, where climate scientists directly address comments from the public such as yours with the published data to back it up. You can also witness them debating in real time various new studies as they come out, sometimes disagreeing, but always supplying the data to support their argument. It's fascinating to watch science at work there; I can rarely follow the details, but you really get a sense of how it's happening.

In the global world of science, this debate is simply over. I can't use this thread to re-create a debate that simply no longer exists. Your concerns are respectfully noted. Clearly you disagree with what we believe to be part of MJ's message, which is fine. I invite you to post a thread on your conspiracy theory in the Investigative Unit forum. Thanks.

 

[Bo G]

Not to turn this thread into a debate, but there are unfortunately some things I can't just let slide without correcting them.
...pollution was already decreasing before the new legislation.
...fish levels have depleted dramatically. These are places were governments have expanded ...Free-market principles would have saved fisheries all over the world.
...government provided vaccines that have caused more problems than they were supposed to cure...Adam Smith referred to the "invisible hand" of the free market....
...unintended consequences that are almost always suffered when government gets involved in anything.

Pollution was not already decreasing; this is plain wrong, I'm sorry. Many other species have indeed declined dramatically; commercial fishing corporations still have far too much influence in setting quotas. But where we haven't had quotas, the declines have been even more dramatic. Look at cod, look at striped bass, so many species that rebounded after better quotas went into place... It's rather amazing to see such faith still in the "invisible hand," now that we see the collapse of the world's markets under this marvelous guiding hand -- recall Alan Greenspan's recent breathtaking honest "I was wrong" speech about this mythical Hand...

But of course you're quite aware you are indeed turning this into a debate, which threatens to hijack this thread. I'm afraid the reality is that like it or not, governments will continue to exist by popular demand, and will continue to try to be be stewards of public resources, also by popular demand. There may be some parts of the world where you can escape government, and you're welcome of course to go there if you don't want to support or take advantage of what most other humans believe to be beneficial.

Michael Shermer, a staunch libertarian who writes for Reason magazine and for years scoffed at global warming and government involvement, wrote a famous article in Scientific American titled something like "I Was Wrong." I've heard Cato Institute libertarian economists, who sound much like you on the government, lecture on the promise of carbon cap and trade programs, which we're moving toward, for control of greenhouse gases. They do so because it allows private initiatives to find their own way to make the actual cuts, under an overarching cap so we know what the heck goal we're working toward. Otherwise the many private initiatives will just neutralize each other and would move us nowhere.

 

[Bob George]

Bob George- how are you doing? We have been discussing this before;Dso I say this with looooove (quoting Michael):
Lets not make this in to a discussion about government versus private initiativ? I think that only stops us from discussing what can be done.
This time around- lets focus on that?
I am very happy if this quote got stuck with you- I hope it stuck with a lot of people.

Yes, I remember our long discussion on this topic a while back. I hope you learned a lot. And yes, I agree, this time around let's focus on what can be done. So let's do that.

So we've established that the Earth is warming. The global average surface temperature has increased about half a degree celsius over the twentieth century. But is global warming because of us? Well I said in my previous post that I'm not going to argue with conventional wisdom because people are too hell-bent on what they want to believe. So for the sake of this argument I'll just ignore that there was much more warming in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half though we burnt much for fossil fuels during that time. And I'll ignore Earth's history of extreme climate changes and pretend that we humans, who've been here for 200,000 of this planet's 4.5 billion year history, are going to destroy the Earth by raising it's temperature half a degree despite the massive climate changes in managed to survive in the past.

Now that we've established that the Earth is warming and, in keeping with conventional wisdom, man caused it. Can man reverse it? Is that feasible? Is it worth sacrificing our individual way of life, our free enterprise system, our global economy for? Is it worth growing the government to an unprecedented size and scope? Or is it smarter to, rather than try to reverse or minimise global warming, simply adapt to it? Who knows, maybe it'll be better. In fact that's exactly what some scientists say. Over the last hundred years, the areas of the Earth that have experienced the most warming have been the coldest parts of the world. In moderate temperature parts of the world, warming hasn't happened nearly as much. e.g. In the United States, the temperature has risen half a degree in the last 100 years. In Siberia the temperature has risen for 2 degrees in the last 50 years. Who wants to stop that? Are we sure yet we want to waste so much money and sacrifice so much in the name of this boogie-man called "global warming"?

 

[Bo G]

...this boogie-man called "global warming"...

Seriously... your boogie-man really wants to be in the Investigative Unit forum, which is where conspiracies are discussed. Here's some reading material: Scientific American Magazine 9/10/09:
Why People Believe in Conspiracies.

 

[Bo G]

...this boogie-man called "global warming"...

Seriously... your boogie-man belongs in the Investigative Unit forum, which is where conspiracies are discussed. Here's some reading material: Scientific American Magazine 9/10/09:
Why People Believe in Conspiracies.

Now you've made me totally late for work...

 

[Bob George]

It's rather amazing to see such faith still in the "invisible hand," now that we see the collapse of the world's markets under this marvelous guiding hand -- recall Alan Greenspan's recent breathtaking honest "I was wrong" speech about this mythical Hand...

Whoa now let's not get too off topic. But let me quickly just say, the world's markets have not been under the "invisible hand" of the free market, they've been under the iron fist of government regulation and intervention. But rather than go on and on about the causes of the economic crisis in a thread about global warming, I'll just kindly recommend you read Thomas Sowell's "The Housing Boom and Bust" or listen to some of the economists who predicted the economic collapse such as Peter Schiff. It's amazing to me that so many people are still listening to the people who got it wrong while ignoring the people who got it right and actually predicted this will happen. If they saw this coming, how about we listen to them before we make more mistakes?

But this is all neither here nor there. We are supposed to be discussing what Michael Jackson said in the film "This Is It" about the environment and how deeply he cared about it and wished to preserve it's beauty. You know, one of the things I admired about Michael was his philanthropy. He was the type of rich man that gave me faith in the ability of individuals to help each other. He took a vested interest in specific cases of children living in extreme poverty or living with an extreme illness and he helped those kids. That's how you really make a change. And Michael wasn't forced to do it. He did it out of the goodness of his heart. You can't force compassion. Leave compassion to those who actually fucking have it, to quote the great Penn & Teller.