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Birchey said:
Teddys version is a good pop tune, as far as what version Michael was more involved in the throwback mix (Billie Jean mash-up) is inspired about 90% by what Michael wanted.

This isn't a dig, I respect you're opinion, but after saying how people are taking Michaels art and using it wrong or removing his input into things, you say you prefer Teddys version when it does not even resemble Michaels original version, yet the Throwback Mix is very close to Michaels version?
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I find it absolutely despicable that they've mixed Michael's Magnum Opus into nothing more than a demo. Absolutely despicable. They've basically destroyed both songs in one fell swoop. Billie Jean is sacred and should NEVER be screwed with or sampled. Absolutely despicable.

In terms of Michael's 'intentions', I trust Joe Vogel as much as I trust Eddie Cascio.

Teddy's is clearly the better mix. IN MY OPINION. And if anyone wants to tell me that Michael would have preferred for Hollywood Tonight to be mixed with Billie Jean then, sorry, I won't believe them. Michael, above anyone else, knew the value of his work.
 
samhabib said:
I find it absolutely despicable that they've mixed Michael's Magnum Opus into nothing more than a demo. Absolutely despicable. They've basically destroyed both songs in one fell swoop. Billie Jean is sacred and should NEVER be screwed with or sampled. Absolutely despicable.

In terms of Michael's 'intentions', I trust Joe Vogel as much as I trust Eddie Cascio.

Teddy's is clearly the better mix. IN MY OPINION. And if anyone wants to tell me that Michael would have preferred for Hollywood Tonight to be mixed with Billie Jean then, sorry, I won't believe them. Michael, above anyone else, knew the value of his work.
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LOOOOL
It was Michael Jacksons idea to add the Billie Jean drums XD

Next you are going to tell me Joe Vogel isn't friends with brad Buxer and that he didn't get his information from him, and that Joe has not heard various versions of the song by MJ, Brad & Michael Prince over the years. You are just disregardings Joe Vogels fantastic research work and saying you don't trust him simply because it does not fit into your ideals.

Dude you just said you prefers Teddy Rileys version which strips away nearly all of MJ's elements, over a mix which still contains 90% of MJ's original idea and original demo XD
 
michaeljojacksonfan said:
I highly doubt Michael would use the BJ drums in the song had he released it. Highly, highly doubt it.
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We wont ever know the final intention but the Throwback mix is pretty much how MJ left the song last time he worked on it, MJ might well have used the BJ drums, but I too cant see it in there normal state, maybe they might have been messed about with or blending in better, maybe some more cut and pasteing fille the gaps and make some drum fills.
 
People are always asking for music 'left the way Michael left it'

The Throwback Mix is presumably pretty much that.....the Estate/Sony will never win will they :)
 
Birchey said:
LOOOOL
It was Michael Jacksons idea to add the Billie Jean drums XD

Next you are going to tell me Joe Vogel isn't friends with brad Buxer and that he didn't get his information from him, and that Joe has not heard various versions of the song by MJ, Brad & Michael Prince over the years. You are just disregardings Joe Vogels fantastic research work and saying you don't trust him simply because it does not fit into your ideals.

Dude you just said you prefers Teddy Rileys version which strips away nearly all of MJ's elements, over a mix which still contains 90% of MJ's original idea and original demo XD
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Birchey, if I read Joe Vogel's write-up correctly, he didn't claim Michael wanted to add the exact Billie Jean drums. He said Michael wanted to create a drum sound similar to Billie Jean, but DISTINCTIVE. Distinctive means different.

And, honestly, I don't see anything wrong with preferring Teddy's mix. I personally prefer the Throwback mix though. Fans always want to listen Michael's music the way he intended and the way he left. However, fans don't need to LOVE Michael's version. For example, many fans prefer the HIStory remix on BOTDF than the orignal version of HIStory on the HIStory album. However, it doesn't mean fans don't want to hear the original HIStory.
 
love is magical said:
Birchey, if I read Joe Vogel's write-up correctly, he didn't claim Michael wanted to add the exact Billie Jean drums. He said Michael wanted to create a drum sound similar to Billie Jean, but DISTINCTIVE. Distinctive means different.
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Thats what i am trying to find out, because the original 1999 Demo has a kick and snare which resembled Billie Jeans highly, so why add another kick/snare in 2007 that resembled them once again? So I have emailed Joe to ask him, if it was a direct sample used, I believe Joe only got a preview of the Demos and took some notes. And thanks for the thumbs up on my Avatar, you should check my remix coming soon, I might get in trouble for it XD
 
Birchey said:
Thats what i am trying to find out, because the original 1999 Demo has a kick and snare which resembled Billie Jeans highly, so why add another kick/snare in 2007 that resembled them once again? So I have emailed Joe to ask him, if it was a direct sample used, I believe Joe only got a preview of the Demos and took some notes. And thanks for the thumbs up on my Avatar, you should check my remix coming soon, I might get in trouble for it XD
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Those Billie Jean drums are pretty distinctive. Any fan would know instantly if it was the billie jean drums or just a similar sample.
 
Birchey said:
We wont ever know the final intention but the Throwback mix is pretty much how MJ left the song last time he worked on it, MJ might well have used the BJ drums, but I too cant see it in there normal state, maybe they might have been messed about with or blending in better, maybe some more cut and pasteing fille the gaps and make some drum fills.
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What a sudden and swift backtrack from saying

"It was Michael Jacksons idea to add the Billie Jean drums XD".

Nowhere in Vogel's article does it say that Michael wanted to use the Billie Jean drums so please don't try to tell me that it does. It doesn't. But nice try.
 
adamschoales said:
Those Billie Jean drums are pretty distinctive. Any fan would know instantly if it was the billie jean drums or just a similar sample.
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Joe isn't an MJ fan, plus its not 100% Joe got to listen to the version with the added drums.
 
samhabib said:
What a sudden and swift backtrack from saying

"It was Michael Jacksons idea to add the Billie Jean drums XD".

Nowhere in Vogel's article does it say that Michael wanted to use the Billie Jean drums so please don't try to tell me that it does. It doesn't. But nice try.
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:agree:

You are very good at taking one qoute out of the context of an entire discussion, I have contacted Joe to see what he has to say about this, will post back.

In the meantime why dont you answer some more of the questions, like why you say they destroyed the song with the Throwback mix, considering its extremely similar to MJ's original demo, yet you say Teddys mix is better when it does not resemble Michael original demo or Michaels original message for the song? I mean all you seem to do on MJJC is say how people are disrespecting Michaels art, yet Teddy riley removes Michael Hollywood tonight ideas and replaces them with his own?
 
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Birchey said:
:agree:

You are very good at taking one qoute out of the context of an entire discussion, I have contacted Joe to see what he has to say about this, will post back.
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How did I take your quote out of context? You quoted something that was completely unproven and without basis - "It was Michael Jacksons idea to add the Billie Jean drums XD". How do you know that it was Michael's idea to add the Billie Jean drums? What did you base that on?

Out of context? No. Just a completely incorrect quote.

Birchey said:
In the meantime why dont you answer some more of the questions, like why you say they destroyed the song with the Throwback mix, considering its extremely similar to MJ's original demo, yet you say Teddys mix is better when it does not resemble Michael original demo or Michaels original message for the song? I mean all you seem to do on MJJC is say how people are disrespecting Michaels art, yet Teddy riley removes Michael Hollywood tonight ideas and replaces them with his own?
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The 'Throwback' mix is poorly mixed. You can barely make out Michael's voice, the Billie Jean sample is misplaced and drowns out any other instrumentation and the tempo of the track is much slower than the album version.

Yes I do believe people are disrespecting Michael's art. And I'm fully entitled to say so. Just like you are fully entitled to claim that the Estate are doing a fantastic job and that they are listening to the fans.
 
samhabib said:
The 'Throwback' mix is poorly mixed. You can barely make out Michael's voice, the Billie Jean sample is misplaced and drowns out any other instrumentation and the tempo of the track is much slower than the album version.
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Are we listening to the same version? Cause the vocals are crystal clear on my copy. CLEARER than the album version. MUCH clearer.

You aren't actually Teddy Riley in disguise are you?
 
adamschoales said:
Are we listening to the same version? Cause the vocals are crystal clear on my copy. CLEARER than the album version. MUCH clearer.

You aren't actually Teddy Riley in disguise are you?
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I watched the video once so have only heard this mix once. It sounded muffled to me and drowned out by the beats.

Yes I am Teddy. And no one can do Michael's scream like Michael.
 
love is magical said:
I, too, look forward to Vogel's book. I'll definitely get a copy. I wonder how he got all these insider info.
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He got it the old-fashioned way : interviews. He got in touch with whomever he could and talked to them.
 
kreen said:
He got it the old-fashioned way : interviews. He got in touch with whomever he could and talked to them.
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Anyone who believes the Cascio songs are legitimate has got nothing to say to me about Michael Jackson's music.
 
samhabib said:
Anyone who believes the Cascio songs are legitimate has got nothing to say to me about Michael Jackson's music.
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This guy isn't a straight up MJ fan, he don't listen day in and day out like we do. He works on the facts laid infront of him, and "Officially" there is more pointing towards the tracks being real than fake. Even though the majority of us fans know they aint Michaels vocals.

You can't have things both sides of the coin, if Joe just writes in his Book the vocals are Jason Malachi's without proof, then waht else do you think he could put in his book without proof? Anything! and then certain people will complain about how much unfactual the book is.

Regardless of how much we don't like it the Cascio tracks ARE MJ Officially, and they will always be until we have proof that MJ didn't sing them, and I don't think we will get it anytime soon.

Joe is doing fantastic work speaking to all the people involved in MJ's music over the years, if you dont want to read the book fair enough, and I am pretty sure the cascio "incident" will only be a small portion of the book. can't wait for all the good stuff he has in store for us
 
grainy/gritty look to TWYMMF: wasn't the video intended to look like this....i remember it being gritty even when it premiered on mtv...
 
samhabib said:
I watched the video once so have only heard this mix once. It sounded muffled to me and drowned out by the beats.

Yes I am Teddy. And no one can do Michael's scream like Michael.
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So you're making your snap judgement based on ONE listen?

Sorry guy, but you might want to perhaps give it a few more listens through before you make a final judgement call. Especially based on a video.
 
powernoize said:
grainy/gritty look to TWYMMF: wasn't the video intended to look like this....i remember it being gritty even when it premiered on mtv...
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Yes, but it goes from a VERY grainy, crappy quality, then the next scene is markedly clearer...Then it goes to grainy again....Not easy to watch that...lol...The quality is MUCH better on HIStory DVD
 
adamschoales said:
So you're making your snap judgement based on ONE listen?

Sorry guy, but you might want to perhaps give it a few more listens through before you make a final judgement call. Especially based on a video.
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My new remix will wipe the floor with Teddys & the Throwback mix :evil: Guaranteed to make you list more than once............I hope :cheeky:
 
adamschoales said:
Are we listening to the same version? Cause the vocals are crystal clear on my copy. CLEARER than the album version. MUCH clearer.

You aren't actually Teddy Riley in disguise are you?
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when i first saw the video i preferred the album version....however, after hearing the new mix on headphones i think it's way better. you can't tell from the video.
 
Arklove said:
Yes, but it goes from a VERY grainy, crappy quality, then the next scene is markedly clearer...Then it goes to grainy again....Not easy to watch that...lol...The quality is MUCH better on HIStory DVD
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yeah, i think only certain parts of it were shot that way. i don't think it has anything to do with the quality....just a different lens.
i'll have to check out my HIStory dvd....thanks!
 
powernoize said:
yeah, i think only certain parts of it were shot that way. i don't think it has anything to do with the quality....just a different lens.
i'll have to check out my HIStory dvd....thanks!
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Yes, but I mean it doesn't do that on the HIStory DVD...It's a consistent quality on the HIStory DVD....whereas, on the Vision DVD, it's back and forth...
 
samhabib said:
Anyone who believes the Cascio songs are legitimate has got nothing to say to me about Michael Jackson's music.
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wow

they can't make you happy can they?

you complain for respect for Michael's artistry - a guy spends years researching it (Vogel has been working on this book for a few years BEFORE Michael's death) and now all his effort is rejected because he happens to have a different opinion than you (and supposedly you are an unbiased person respectful of other people's opinions)

for months and months everyone is criticized for altering with Michael's vision or not giving out as perfect final product as Michael could - the estate says here you go this is how he left the song and now that's being criticized?

wow

I'll be blunt. Michael is dead, he's gone. You'll never ever get a final product done by him. Nothing will have his final touch, his approval, his full vision. Everything will be done from now on will have someone else's touch. So you have 2 choices really. Either accept the reality and make your peace with "not perfect but better than nothing" releases to enjoy them or limit yourself to releases during Michael's lifetime to spare yourself from this anger and negativity.
 
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