Elton John 'cannot adopt [a 14 month old boy] in Ukraine' UPDATE: He and his partner welcome son.

[Krshna28]

They should think about the child they are looking after..........


The chances are that he will be confused growing up and wondering what's going on.........

Not to mention the times he will be bullied at school...........

 

[Roosje]

They should think about the child they are looking after..........


The chances are that he will be confused growing up and wondering what's going on.........

Not to mention the times he will be bullied at school...........

Why would he be confused?

Because kids are sometimes cruel, this kid should not have a loving home with his dads? Elton and his husband seem a very stable loving couple. Stability and love are key for the upbringing of a happy child.

 

[Asedora]

Guess what: I was raised by a mother and a father, along with two sisters, but I still turned out to be gay anyway. It wasn't a choice; it was me being true to myself.

Well let me tell you something about "confused sexuality": I was nearly damaged by my traditional Roman Catholic upbringing because it conflicted with my true self. I knew that as a child, if I came out, I would probably be shunned by my parents and, at worst, be taken to be "cured." I waited until I was 18 to come out, by which time my parents had no legal right to do anything to me. Luckily, they were more supportive than I had hoped, but the trauma of not being able to express myself as a teen had already been done.



I do not know all of the facts about Socrates, so I cannot comment on that.

But He obviously didn't intend for every man or woman to procreate. Why do you think some people are infertile? Why do you think some people are gay? The reason: to adopt the less fortunate children who were born as a result of straight people who shouldn't even be procreating in the first place.

I will be shortly answering to your points.

1. If you want to adopt a child, do not get surrogate mother involved in this case. This is Elton John case. He did not adopt less fortunate child from Africa. If he was not that lucky with Ukraine, he could try different countries but he decided to use a surrogate woman. So what you said is pointless. Gays still want to use a woman to get their own children with their own sperm.

2. If you were gay being in Catholic family, you still had TWO sexes in this family. You had your right to choose anyways in the age 18 at least. This child in Elton John's family will not have that right because he will see only male "mother" and male "father" and his sexuality will be directed this way. It will be very confusing for child sexuality imo because he will watch movies, he will see his fried's families and see opposite in his own life. This is a question about kids' rights not about gay's rights.

3.Yes, I am kind worry about my son. I am not pushing anything but as a blood parent I have all rights to teach him about male/female relationships which I consider to be normal God given relationships. If one day I will see that he is different, I will simply accept it. Nothing more, nothing less.

4.And yes, I do not like when gay’s subculture is being pushed everywhere because I have my rights too. I am not going on the street with an advertisement in my hands that saying I am heterosexual.There is something has to be PRIVATE. Gay’s got rights, they even can get married. Fine. Go ahead. Do it, just do not be so aggressive with your believes, because I have my own.
I respect you, you respect me. End of the story.

5. Ancient Greeks accepted homosexuality in a very high level but they never accepted gay "families" and homosexual relatinships with kids. I guess, we should learn something from our own history. Being ignorant does not help.

6.If God was a big fan of homosexuality he would create two guys with penises and would make them to produce children. Maximum what gays can get from this male/female created world is tolerance and human rights like any human being but gays’ families never will consider to be OK because it is against the nature.. Simple as that.

 

[Tony R]

^ There is so much wrong with the post above, but this thread is supposed to be back on track now, so well done Elton - a child that is wanted & loved has it all (and an amazing wardrobe in this case).

 

[ginvid]

(^^^How did you slip in there? The below wasn't directed at you.)

Enough is enough!

I politely asked that we get on topic in this thread. I am asking again.
For a final time, can we please stop using this thread as a means to debate homosexuality.

The thread is about Elton and John adopting a son. It is not about whether being gay is acceptable or not.

Please stay on topic! Thanks!

 

[FrankMusic1982]

I will be shortly answering to your points.

1. If you want to adopt a child, do not get surrogate mother involved in this case. This is Elton John case. He did not adopt less fortunate child from Africa. If he was not that lucky with Ukraine, he could try different countries but he decided to use a surrogate woman. So what you said is pointless. Gays still want to use a woman to get their own children with their own sperm.

I agree with you totally. The problem is that everyone has been indoctrinated to believe that it is imperative that they procreate. And in Elton John's case, he had no other choice; he is too old to adopt from the Ukraine. I don't know about other countries.

2. If you were gay being in Catholic family, you still had TWO sexes in this family. You had your right to choose anyways in the age 18 at least. This child in Elton John's family will not have that right because he will see only male "mother" and male "father" and his sexuality will be directed this way. It will be very confusing for child sexuality imo because he will watch movies, he will see his fried's families and see opposite in his own life. This is a question about kids' rights not about gay's rights.

Elton's son's sexuality will not be redirected that way. That is a fallacy that most homophobes make. And once again, I did not choose to be gay. It is inherent in me. Despite the fact that I saw heterosexuality everywhere I looked as a child, I knew deep down inside that I was different, but I only went along with heterosexuality because I was indoctrinated to believe that it was the "right" and "true" thing to do. Now I know better.

Of course it's a question of the child's rights, which were taken away from me by my parents and by a sick society.

3.Yes, I am kind worry about my son. I am not pushing anything but as a blood parent I have all rights to teach him about male/female relationships which I consider to be normal God given relationships. If one day I will see that he is different, I will simply accept it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Homosexuality is just as "normal" and "God-given" as heterosexuality. The only difference is that we are attracted to people of the same sex.

4.And yes, I do not like when gay’s subculture is being pushed everywhere because I have my rights too. I am not going on the street with an advertisement in my hands that saying I am heterosexual. Gay’s got rights, they even can get married. Fine. Do it, just do not be so aggressive with your believes, because I have my own.
I respect you, you respect me. End of the story.

Unfortunately, it's more than just respecting the beliefs of others. We gays are still being persecuted, vilified, and attacked by radical, ignorant, and intolerant religious people who are in turn attempting to shove their beliefs down society's throat. We gays are making small steps to combat that. The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a small victory.

5. Ancient Greeks accepted homosexuality in a very high level but they never accepted gay "families" and homosexual relatinships with kids. I guess, we should learn something from our own history. Being ignorant does not help.

That was ancient Greece. I live in 21st Century America. I don't care what the ancient Greeks condoned or condemned. I'm more concerned about the here and now. And you've got some nerve calling me ignorant.

6.If God was a big fan of homosexuality he would create two guys with penises and would make them to produce children. Maximum what gays can get from this male/female created world is tolerance and human rights like any human being but gays’ families never will consider to be OK because it is against the nature.. Simple as that.

But did you not read what I posted before? God made us gays for reasons other than procreation, the same way he made people infertile. It is God's way of controlling the population expansion.

Two men or two women raising a child is not against nature. There is no basis to prove that.

 

[144000]

That's factually wrong.

Socrates' trial and execution should be mandatory reading for MJ fans for a number of reasons.
Socrates was the fleshy wound in the mind of highly conservative rulers, just as MJ was/is. Socrates was a threat, just as MJ still is a threat. Somebody who refused to "know their place."

It's mind blowing that MJ fans of all people wouldn't be the first to jump at these uncanny parallels in unjust prosecution when the alleged 'crime' has more to do with speaking one's mind.

Apparently MJ was well versed in all things Socrates. During the jury selection of his own trial (just trying to remember the context and time frame correctly) Michael even spoke to his own defense about Socrates drinking the hemlock. Or it might have been a book seller who was relayed this story through a former member of Michael's defense team.

No need to employ brilliant Socrates as the warning example of what happens to gay people.

i don't think Michael was about politics. people on both sides of the equation..both parties, found things wrong with him. i could understand why he tried to steer clear of it, while other artists jump in with both feet. your last sentence suggests hearsay, or uncertainty, but even if true about Socrates, MJ didn't come across as approaching it from a political standpoint, but it seems from what I read, both parties punished him for his silence on such matters.

 

[Asedora]

I agree with you totally. The problem is that everyone has been indoctrinated to believe that it is imperative that they procreate. And in Elton John's case, he had no other choice; he is too old to adopt from the Ukraine. I don't know about other countries.

Elton's son's sexuality will not be redirected that way. That is a fallacy that most homophobes make. And once again, I did not choose to be gay. It is inherent in me. Despite the fact that I saw heterosexuality everywhere I looked as a child, I knew deep down inside that I was different, but I only went along with heterosexuality because I was indoctrinated to believe that it was the "right" and "true" thing to do. Now I know better.

Of course it's a question of the child's rights, which were taken away from me by my parents and by a sick society.

Homosexuality is just as "normal" and "God-given" as heterosexuality. The only difference is that we are attracted to people of the same sex.
Unfortunately, it's more than just respecting the beliefs of others. We gays are still being persecuted, vilified, and attacked by radical, ignorant, and intolerant religious people who are in turn attempting to shove their beliefs down society's throat. We gays are making small steps to combat that. The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a small victory.

That was ancient Greece. I live in 21st Century America. I don't care what the ancient Greeks condoned or condemned. I'm more concerned about the here and now. And you've got some nerve calling me ignorant.

But did you not read what I posted before? God made us gays for reasons other than procreation, the same way he made people infertile. It is God's way of controlling the population expansion.

Two men or two women raising a child is not against nature. There is no basis to prove that.

1.First of all, thanks that you agree with me not to use surrogate mother. Not every gay thinks the same. Many gays still want to use women to have children. Elton John case is an example. And there is no excuse for him that he is old or whatever. He felt young enough to produce a child with a surrogate mother. Some traditional oriented people cannot have children because of age. So, Elton John wanted to be special.

2.I even would agree with you that God created gays to control population. Maybe he did maybe he did not, hard to say but we accept it because it is here. Maybe he wanted all of us to teach tolerance and something else.

3. I do not think, that your rights were ignored by your parents. Your parents were traditional people and there is nobody's fault. Juts accept it as it is. Being born gay is not something very regular and being happening in every day basis. It is like some people are born in Africa and some in America. Some people are rich since they were born, and some do not have food on their tables and have to work hard to get it.
In the end gays are still being produced by heterosexual people. Not opposite :lol: You are still very connected with us women no matter how much you ignore us

4. When I said "ignorant" I did not mean you, but us humans in general. We do not want to learn anything from our own history. History repeats itself in cycles and there is nothing new in this world. I hope it helps.

5.The last. If a gay couple cannot produce children by natural way it means that they should not have them. This is why traditional families have all rights for kids being rise in those families because they can PRODUCE them. Simple as that. This is God given blessing.. Gays do not have this given privilege from God and should not rise kids. You guys try to fight with God defending you rights, but keep forgetting the rest of the story.

 

[144000]

I agree with you totally. The problem is that everyone has been indoctrinated to believe that it is imperative that they procreate. And in Elton John's case, he had no other choice; he is too old to adopt from the Ukraine. I don't know about other countries.

Elton's son's sexuality will not be redirected that way. That is a fallacy that most homophobes make. And once again, I did not choose to be gay. It is inherent in me. Despite the fact that I saw heterosexuality everywhere I looked as a child, I knew deep down inside that I was different, but I only went along with heterosexuality because I was indoctrinated to believe that it was the "right" and "true" thing to do. Now I know better.

Of course it's a question of the child's rights, which were taken away from me by my parents and by a sick society.

Homosexuality is just as "normal" and "God-given" as heterosexuality. The only difference is that we are attracted to people of the same sex.
Unfortunately, it's more than just respecting the beliefs of others. We gays are still being persecuted, vilified, and attacked by radical, ignorant, and intolerant religious people who are in turn attempting to shove their beliefs down society's throat. We gays are making small steps to combat that. The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a small victory.

That was ancient Greece. I live in 21st Century America. I don't care what the ancient Greeks condoned or condemned. I'm more concerned about the here and now. And you've got some nerve calling






























































God made us gays for reasons other than procreation, the same way he made people infertile. It is God's way of controlling the population expansion.

Two men or two women raising a child is not against nature. There is no basis to prove that.

Naaa he made virgins for controlling the population. lol. just kidding..yuk it up:lol:..lol....i don't know....tryin to lighten the mood in here.

we're always fighting... i don't know why

 

[ginvid]

I asked I don't know how many times for everyone in this thread to stay on topic. I was ignored. If I have to ask again, the thread will be closed and I will hand out infractions. Last warning.

Stay on topic.

 

[kissybissy]

Why do people have to push religion into everything? There’s nothing about religion. It’s just a couple committed to each other for almost 20 years that wanted to became parents. Elton is not so old, as some say. Rod Stewart has a child yet to be born in early 2011 and he’s older than Elton. What’s the fuss about Elton? Zachary is a child that will grow up in a home surrounded by love and kindness. Also, what’s the fuss about using a surrogate mother? It’s a practice done for many years to help couples that want to be a parent. No one wants to be special for having a child via surrogate mother. They just want to become a parent. Elton tried to adopt and wasn’t allowed to. What’s the big deal about it? Didn’t Michael do the same???? Michael himself told Bashir, Blanket was born to a surrogate mother. Did Michael want to be special by having Blanket to a surrogate mother?

I don't see anything wrong about Elton having a child. It was his and his partner's dream and I'm sure they will be great parents.

 

[Krshna28]

(^^^How did you slip in there? The below wasn't directed at you.)

Enough is enough!

I politely asked that we get on topic in this thread. I am asking again.
For a final time, can we please stop using this thread as a means to debate homosexuality.

The thread is about Elton and John adopting a son. It is not about whether being gay is acceptable or not.

Please stay on topic! Thanks!

A thread about two homosexual men raising a child is bound to spark debate.......


If you don't like that then don't hesitate to lock the thread!!!!

 

[kissybissy]

I just want to post an article that I think it's very interesting. It's an opinion of a famous psychologist on how Elton and David handled the news about their son.

_______________

Top child psychologist Dr. Fran Walfish has congratulated Sir Elton John and David Furnish on their Christmas baby, insisting they’ll make great parents.

Walfish, the author of new book The Self-Aware Parent: Resolving Conflict and Building A Better Bond with Your Child, salutes the couple on its decision to keep the pregnancy and the identity of the surrogate top secret – and she hopes the media will respect the Rocket Man’s privacy as he tackles fatherhood for the first time. Little Zachary Jackson Levon Furnish-John was born on Christmas Day (12/25) and Sir Elton and Furnish waited until Monday to announce the happy news. Dr. Walfish says,

“They are already positioning their family with a surrounding wall of privacy and protection. They have laid the first layer of bricks and mortar as foundation for shielding for their son.

“These parents have taken their first steps to normalise the childhood of little Zachary. It’s hard enough parenting a child. The challenge of parenting under the scrutiny of public judgmental opinion increase complications for both child and parents. Good job, Elton and David!” And she warns bigots who may question whether two gay men can give a child everything he or she needs to keep their thoughts to themselves – because in her experience more and more kids are being brought up by gay or lesbian parents.

She adds,

“Each classroom where I have expert consulted in private schools has at least one family where the constellation consists of a gay couple, male or female, and their child or children.

“Research suggests that they turn out about the same, no better, no worse and no more likely to be gay than other kids. My professional clinical experience is that gay parents have the same challenges that heterosexual parents do. They must balance loving and nurturing their child with setting and following-through on clear boundaries.”

http://www.babyrazzi.com/2010/12/30...es-sir-elton-on-the-way-he-handled-baby-news/

 

[8701girl]

Sexuality is complicated subject and it is being developed under certain circumstances since the baby is born. It is not only about how individual feels as an adult. In traditional families both sexes are introduced in EQUAL proportions. In this case, child is being given a choice. This is what you are talking about.

This question is not about gay rights, this question is about children’s rights. This kid more likely will have confused sexuality and as a result damage personality. In ancient Greece gay relationships were a part of the culture and philosophy but Ancient Greeks used to rise kids in traditional families and they had straight rules. There were not stupid.

Socrates was executed just because he developed very close relationships with boys during his philosophy classes.

God created man and woman for a reason. If gay families want kids, they should be able to have them on their own without anybody else involved.

How can gay couple have a child with out anybody else involved? they do need a surroagte mother to give birth to their if they choose to use their own sperm cells.

And also they do sometimes need legal help with like elton & his partner have trouble adpoting.

 

[Asedora]

How can gay couple have a child with out anybody else involved? they do need a surroagte mother to give birth to their if they choose to use their own sperm cells.

And also they do sometimes need legal help with like elton & his partner have trouble adpoting.

If you are gay just be gay. They claim that they are not attracted in opposite sex. Fine. Just be who you are till the end and be proud of it. Do NOT shop for a FEMALE egg for God sake because it looks highly hypocritical. This is what Elton did cos he wants to be special.
Control population on Earth, if you believe you have this purpose, and do not produce more children with surrogate females.
Adopting and heplping trobubled kids is another question. Elton tried Ukraine, it did not work and then decided an easy way.
Besides, i am not sure that gay couples will want to adopt a baby girl. I do not know how Elton got a baby boy. was it accidental "blessing"? Not sure. Doctors can control it. It coud be possible that other female fetuses were simply removed from a surrogate mother. The truth about this baby boy will come out eventually.

 

[8701girl]

If you are gay just be gay. They claim that they are not attracted in opposite sex. Fine. Just be who you are till the end and be proud of it. Do NOT shop for a FEMALE egg for God sake because it looks highly hypocritical. This is what Elton did he wants to be special.

I do not think he "shoped" for a female egg, he most likely asked a female friend who he trusted & knew to do it.

 

[Asedora]

I do not think he "shoped" for a female egg, he most likely asked a female friend who he trusted & knew to do it.

It does not matter if she was a friend. It does not change the fact that gay wanted a women to produce children. It is still "shopping" for a female egg. If you are gay, be yourslef. This is the point.

 

[LindavG]

It's sad to see so many homophobics around here. Asedora, I find your comments downright shocking. I can't believe there are still people in 2010 who believe having gay parents automatically leads to sexually confused children. By saying gays shouldn't "shop around for female eggs" (how is that any different from how Michael conceived Blanket btw?) you mean gays should not be allowed to have children of their own. Why the hell not? What is wrong with wanting to pass on your genes to your child? You say they don't have this "God given right" (another classic homophobic comment btw) so I guess straight men or women who are infertile or are for other reasons not able to conceive shouldn't be allowed to have children of their own either, right? Why should Elton be forced to adopt some kid from Africa or Eastern Europe because YOU think he has no right to have kids of his own. You know what, I strongly advise homophobics like yourself (and this is not an insult, just because you hide your discriminatory remarks behind "God" doesn't mean you're not homophobic) to listen to this song, sang by a young Dutch boy who is being raised by two gay men and proud of it (comes with English subtitles) You listen to it and tell me if this kid's "rights" are being damaged (as you implied):

[youtube]_qf0puHJ-KM[/youtube]

 

[8701girl]

It does not matter if she was a friend. It does not change the fact that gay wanted a women to produce children. It is still "shopping" for a female egg. If you are gay, be yourslef. This is the point.

Thats the thing they are being themselves but having to be a parent for them is much harder & difficult in this society. But its their life and we have no right to judge or tell them what they should do .

 

[HIStory]

It does not matter if she was a friend. It does not change the fact that gay wanted a women to produce children. It is still "shopping" for a female egg. If you are gay, be yourslef. This is the point.

I know Michael wasn't gay, but he obviously didn't choose to have and raise his kids in a traditional family either (was he shopping for a female egg when he had Blanket?), so I find it a bit hypocritical from an MJ fan.

 

[HIStory]

On a sidenote, this is the context in which the Socrates story was told:

"MICHAEL Jackson was a book-loving "intellectual" - with more than 10,000 classics in his vast Neverland library, his lawyer yesterday revealed.

Bob Sanger said the Liberian Girl singer was fascinated by philosophy and history - and covered his books with notes.

Sanger - the pop king's lawyer for 16 years - said: "Michael was extremely well-read. We talked about psychology, Freud and Jung, sociology and black history.

"But he was well-read in the classics of psychology and history and literature. He was very intellectual but didn't flaunt it."

Sanger said he was surprised during a break at *****'s 2005 child molestation trial when the star spoke of the execution of philosopher Socrates - who had to drink a brew made from toxic herb hemlock.

He said: "Michael says, 'The jury system is much older than 200 years, isn't it?'

"I said, 'It goes back to the Greeks.' He says, 'Socrates had a jury trial.' I said, 'You know how it turned out for him.' Michael says, 'Yeah, he had to drink the hemlock.'"

 

[Krshna28]

And stop calling Asedora homophobic.........she just isn't conformable with the idea of same-sex couples raising a child together...............I myself would never want to be raised by a same-sex couple!!!!!!



Anyway.........

If Elton really wanted children.........he wouldn't have waited over 60 years.........

 

[Severus Snape]

Re: Elton John 'cannot adopt [a 14 month old boy] in Ukraine'

Elton should "provide his own material" to a surrogate mother and bring his own kid up, than to adopt a child...

Why? There are lots of kids out there without mothers or fathers, who would love to have a family and someone who cares for them, rather than living in a dingy orphanage with no past and no future. We've got a massive overpopulation problem and selfish people just think about having "their own" kids. Well, lookie here, there's loads of kids in this world, and I think it better to give them a chance rather than bringing more prisoners into the ship. If you love them all the same, what does it matter that they don't look like you or carry your genetic material? They're your kids, because you love them and they love you, period.

I think what Elton John wants to do is nothing short of admirable. Adoption is a great option. :yes:

Moreover, you're never too old to give a loving family to a child who needs it.

 

[Severus Snape]

It does not matter if she was a friend. It does not change the fact that gay wanted a women to produce children. It is still "shopping" for a female egg. If you are gay, be yourslef. This is the point.

What about people whose wives or husbands are infertile and can't have children of their own due to that? Should they just "be themselves" too? Or is "shopping" around, as you put it, for a female egg or donor sperm OK then because they're straight?

 

[kissybissy]

Honestly, it is sad that such bigotry, hate & ignorance still exist in the world today. And even sadder that so much of it is religion fueled, which is supposed to be about love, understanding, acceptance & compassion for others while not judging...

 

[FrankMusic1982]

(^^^How did you slip in there? The below wasn't directed at you.)

Enough is enough!

I politely asked that we get on topic in this thread. I am asking again.
For a final time, can we please stop using this thread as a means to debate homosexuality.

The thread is about Elton and John adopting a son. It is not about whether being gay is acceptable or not.

Please stay on topic! Thanks!

I am sorry, but I am not the one at fault here, Ginvid. Asedora is the one who started this debate about homosexuality being acceptable or not. Being a gay man myself, I was deeply offended by her comments and felt compelled to not only express myself, but to defend myself and the entire gay community against her ignorance, intolerance, and insensitivity.

If you feel the need to close this thread, please do so, but please also reprimand the guilty party.

I will continue my conversation with Asedora through private messaging if that makes you feel any better.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

This topic is most obviously being used to get a rise out of people.

There's a reason we were asked to stop battling this out in this thread. Because this thread is less and less about a specific topic but is just baiting people into emotional reactions.

 

[Asedora]

Thats the thing they are being themselves but having to be a parent for them is much harder & difficult in this society. But its their life and we have no right to judge or tell them what they should do .

This whole story is not about gays rights ,this is about children's rights. Children's rights have a PRIVILAGE and it always will be the case. Have you all of sudden forgotten about it? This is a shame to remind about it on MJ's fan board!

Children have no voice as usual. Their rights are being ignored as usual and this is what Michael always was talking about.

Now I have to leave this crazy thread because I feel hopeless.

 

[HIStory]

This whole story is not about gays rights ,this is about children's rights. Children's rights have a PRIVILAGE and it always will be the case. Have you all of sudden forgotten about it? This is a shame to remind about it on MJ's fan board!

Children have no voice as usual. Their rights are being ignored as usual and this is what Michael always was talking about.

Now I have to leave this crazy thread because I feel hopeless.

You know what? The bigoted likes of Gloria Allred and Co. also said Michael was violating "children's rights" when he chose to have and raise his kids as a single father. That he was violating their rights to have a mother bla-bla-bla.

You seem a lot like her in this topic - pretending to KNOW what's best from someone else's child. What you are basically saying is that Elton John's son shouldn't have been born at all. What a nice way to welcome a baby in this World....

 

[StaceyMJ]

I am shocked at what this thread has become. Not to mention deeply saddened. Some of the views expressed here are downright homphobic.

To all those offended I apologise on behalf of MJJC. MJJC is created for people of all walks of life, backgrounds, cultures, sexualities, races, it's for everyone, and created to honour a man who was the epitome of this way of thinking and living. I for one won't sit and watch members being alienated and offended by the comments of a select few.

Thread closed.