[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Well the judge cited the 1993 case and Jason Francia and Michael being an agent as reasons why they could be within 340.1(b)(2)

We actually discussed this here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ge563?p=4052056&highlight=liberal#post4052056

The Judge said that in a "broad liberal meaning" as he put it and it's very possible that just means the theory of even if he accepts every other argument.

Please note that this hearing took place on October 1. The Estate did make this statement in a September 24 demurrer:

And the Judge still said what he said. So it was not because the Estate did not make it clear that knowing about the 1993 allegations is not equal to knowing about abuse, because of course those allegations were never proven and MJ always denied them.

I do not think the 1993 allegations in any way can be construed as a "reason to know". It's like saying anyone who is ever accused of something should be thought of as guilty no matter if it was proven or not. That would be nonsensical. MJ never admitted guilt and was never found guilty. Joy Robson herself did not think that the 1993 allegations in themselves are a reason to think he is a child molester so why should MJ's companies have?

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Exactly, I think they might have a taped phone conversation or something in which Michael actually says that, and WR is trying to make it sound like he only said it because he was 'role-playing' with him. I watched his interview again the other day and he said something along the lines of how there was 'no sense of truth over the phone' when he talked about how Michael would call him to 'role-play these scenario's'.

I agree. I suspect they either have a tape of this conversation or there were independent witnesses (eg. Mez) and because of that Wade needs to explain it away as "coaching". The whole thing just does not make sense in the context of his story and it does not support his claims at all.

Good point. There must be something against him out there, that's the only way it makes sense for him to bring it up himself. He still hurt his own case though.

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think we should not make the mistake of thinking that we know everything that MJ did in his private life.

That's true but what about taking his own words?

listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTD151jcF3k
this took place in 1991 1992 and clearly he says "we never really had sex"

it's reasonable to assume based on that and the fact that he was a JW to whom sex outside of marriage is forbidden
that in 1991-1992 at age 33 he was a virgin.

His skin disease probably also played a role. It's not uncommon for vitiligo patients to become celibate.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

That's true but what about taking his own words?

listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTD151jcF3k
this took place in 1991 1992 and clearly he says "we never really had sex"

But you still do not know whether after this conversation took place he had sex. On the same tapes there is talk about a woman called Melissa as a love interest for MJ and none of us ever heard about this person outside of these tapes. So you do not know who MJ had in his life that we don't necessarily know about.

I also do not like labels like "asexual". Even IF MJ really did not have sex until 1991-92 or so it does not necessarily mean he was asexual. You too mention the possible religious reasons for example.

 

[jaydom7]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Good point. There must be something against him out there, that's the only way it makes sense for him to bring it up himself. He still hurt his own case though.

There's a whole bunch of videos, tapes and comments from Wade Robson about MJ over the course of 20 years and they were all positive.

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I do not think the 1993 allegations in any way can be construed as a "reason to know". It's like saying anyone who is ever accused of something should be thought of as guilty no matter if it was proven or not. That would be nonsensical. MJ never admitted guilt and was never found guilty. Joy Robson herself did not think that the 1993 allegations in themselves are a reason to think he is a child molester so why should MJ's companies have?

Exactly. Which is why I don't understand how a sane judge could say what he said. It's madness.

 

[jaydom7]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

We actually discussed this here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ge563?p=4052056&highlight=liberal#post4052056

The Judge said that in a "broad liberal meaning" as he put it and it's very possible that just means the theory of even if he accepts every other argument.

Please note that this hearing took place on October 1. The Estate did make this statement in a September 24 demurrer:

And the Judge still said what he said. So it was not because the Estate did not make it clear that knowing about the 1993 allegations is not equal to knowing about abuse, because of course those allegations were never proven and MJ always denied them.

I do not think the 1993 allegations in any way can be construed as a "reason to know". It's like saying anyone who is ever accused of something should be thought of as guilty no matter if it was proven or not. That would be nonsensical. MJ never admitted guilt and was never found guilty. Joy Robson herself did not think that the 1993 allegations in themselves are a reason to think he is a child molester so why should MJ's companies have?

Right... Did Joy keep her son away from Michael after the 1993 allegations? Nope! did Wade stop seeing MJ after 1993? Nope.. That's because they knew he was innocent.. Again Wade needs to file a lawsuit against his Mama if he feels he was abused not the MJ estate.

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

But you still do not know whether after this conversation took place he had sex. On the same tapes there is talk about a woman called Melissa as a love interest for MJ and none of us ever heard about this person outside of these tapes. So you do not know who MJ had in his life that we don't necessarily know about.

But it pretty much proves that he could go without sex for years.
I noted that because that arrogant idiot juror actually argued that MJ sleeping in a bed with Brett for 365 days (which btw didn't happen Karlee was wrong)
and they only watching TV didn't make sense to him.

Well I am asexual myself so it made a lot of sense to me.

I also do not like labels like "asexual". Even IF MJ really did not have sex until 1991-92 or so it does not necessarily mean he was asexual. You too mention the possible religious reasons for example.

That's OK that's why I mentioned low libido as clearly Lisa Marie didn't lie so MJ was not asexual in the strictest sense of the word.
The point is that unless you convince the jurors that MJ didn't care much about sex one way or the other they will wonder what was going on for months during that tour.
Don't have any doubt, Robson's lawyers would bring that up!

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

and he says 'we never', talking about someone specific in this conversation. Doesn't prove anything. Not enough for people to speculate about him being asexual.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What is going on today?

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

There's a whole bunch of videos, tapes and comments from Wade Robson about MJ over the course of 20 years and they were all positive.

Of course but we're talking about the quoted convesation where Michael told Wade he's being accused of "disgusting sexual stuff". The only reason for Wade to bring it up now must be some documentation of this conversation and he's afraid it's going to surface. He claims he didn't realize it was bad because Michael told him they're not doing anything wrong and it's love, so why would he talk about this conversation?

 

[Paris78]

Taj Jackson @tajjackson3 · April 8th

MJ Fam… I filed a complaint to the @IpsoNews on April 6th. Patiently waiting to hear back #MJlegacy

Taj Jackson retweetete
MelanieLuvsOTW @Mellie4Justice · April 9th

@tajjackson3 : RT Can you assist? We want parity in investigations regarding false MJstories by SBrown NYPost - http://wp.me/p1iFF1-1XC

 

[jaydom7]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Of course but we're talking about the quoted convesation where Michael told Wade he's being accused of "disgusting sexual stuff". The only reason for Wade to bring it up now must be some documentation of this conversation and he's afraid it's going to surface. He claims he didn't realize it was bad because Michael told him they're not doing anything wrong and it's love, so why would he talk about this conversation?

Oh... okay

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

But it pretty much proves that he could go without sex for years.

I believe he could but that does not mean he was asexual or even that he had a low libido.

I noted that because that arrogant idiot juror actually argued that MJ sleeping in a bed with Brett for 365 days (which btw didn't happen Karlee was wrong)
and they only watching TV didn't make sense to him.

It also weren't 365 continuous days.

Well I am asexual myself so it made a lot of sense to me.

People should try not to project themselves onto Michael.

That's OK that's why I mentioned low libido as clearly Lisa Marie didn't lie so MJ was not asexual in the strictest sense of the word.
The point is that unless you convince the jurors that MJ didn't care much about sex one way or the other they will wonder what was going on for months during that tour.
Don't have any doubt, Robson's lawyers would bring that up!

Again, this does not mean a low libido either. If he had a low libido he would not have had all those magazines. There are a whole lot of reasons why someone would choose not to have sex. And just because two people stay together in a room for days or weeks or even months it does not mean they will unavoidably end up having sex. That's nonsense.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

But it pretty much proves that he could go without sex for years.
I noted that because that arrogant idiot juror actually argued that MJ sleeping in a bed with Brett for 365 days (which btw didn't happen Karlee was wrong)
and they only watching TV didn't make sense to him.

Well I am asexual myself so it made a lot of sense to me.



That's OK that's why I mentioned low libido as clearly Lisa Marie didn't lie so MJ was not asexual in the strictest sense of the word.
The point is that unless you convince the jurors that MJ didn't care much about sex one way or the other they will wonder what was going on for months during that tour.
Don't have any doubt, Robson's lawyers would bring that up!

you have a point. The bodyguards were with him for years but all they could recall about his interaction with women was a one week visit to Virgina during which they heard him kiss a girl in the back side of his car. Another example is the last months of his life . He was spending most nights with Murray. So yes he was not that much active, if any.

 

[HIStory]

Taj Jackson @tajjackson3 · April 8th

MJ Fam… I filed a complaint to the @IpsoNews on April 6th. Patiently waiting to hear back #MJlegacy

Taj Jackson retweetete
MelanieLuvsOTW @Mellie4Justice · April 9th

@tajjackson3 : RT Can you assist? We want parity in investigations regarding false MJstories by SBrown NYPost - http://wp.me/p1iFF1-1XC

Good. Whatever needed I'm gonna do it if we are going to go after Stacy Brown. BTW, I see the Estate made a longer statement:

“Statement from the Estate of Michael Jackson RE: Stacy Brown
We have received a number of inquiries from the community regarding the most recent Stacy Brown story. As many of you are aware, the Estate generally prefers not to legitimatize the lies and rumors spread in the media or expand the coverage by other media of those stories. However, the Estate has asked that we share with you the following statement that was issued by Howard Weitzman, attorney for the Estate of Michael Jackson, in a response to a request for comment yesterday:
“We are aware of recent false “reports” regarding Michael Jackson having, among other things, paid over $200 million to 20 “victims.” There is not a shred of evidence to support these ludicrous “reports.” It is unfortunate that, even in death, Michael cannot be free of these types of allegations, but we are confident that the truth will prevail in the end, just as it did in 2005 when a jury fully exonerated him.”
The Estate is steadfast in its defense of Michael in courts and that will not change regardless of what lies and rumors are spread by journalists with their own agendas.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I believe he could but that does not mean he was asexual or even that he had a low libido.



It also weren't 365 continuous days.



People should try not to project themselves onto Michael.




Again, this does not mean a low libido either. If he had a low libido he would not have had all those magazines. There are a whole lot of reasons why someone would choose not to have sex. And just because two people stay together in a room for days or weeks or even months it does not mean they will unavoidably end up having sex. That's nonsense.

Exactly. I don't think I have a low libido or am asexual. But I didn't have sex til I was about 28 and I'm celibate now. I'm also not in love with anyone right now.

So why does this mean anything. This is just personal gossip stuff. Nothing to do with the case.

 

[jaydom7]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What is going on today?

nothing.. There was a hearing set for April 10th supposedly but I think it's been postponed or cancelled until May too.. Not sure maybe Ivy knows. Pearl Jr called the courthouse to verify the dates and was told there was nothing on the books until May. Maybe Ivy can verify.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So why does this mean anything. This is just personal gossip stuff. Nothing to do with the case.

I don't think either that it's relevant how many times MJ had sex during his life.

Talking about the Glenda tapes though MJ does say a number of things there which go against these allegations. Unfortunately MJ is not here any more to be able to testify for himself, which could be a disadvantage.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

nothing.. There was a hearing set for April 10th supposedly but I think it's been postponed or cancelled until May too.. Not sure maybe Ivy knows. Pearl Jr called the courthouse to verify the dates and was told there was nothing on the books until May. Maybe Ivy can verify.

the next court day is next month

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I don't think either that it's relevant how many times MJ had sex during his life.

Talking about the Glenda tapes though MJ does say a number of things there which go against these allegations. Unfortunately MJ is not here any more to be able to testify for himself, which could be a disadvantage.

sorry, which allegations do you mean?

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

and he says 'we never', talking about someone specific in this conversation. Doesn't prove anything. Not enough for people to speculate about him being asexual.

I think the context make it absolutely clear, especially knowing that he was a JW

I want to be with someone. I want to know what a relationship is all about before I die. I've never had...I mean I've been with Tate.
I thought I was with Diana it was just in my own mind.. I never had a real relationship. My brothers have had girlfriends I really haven't had that.
What am I gonna do? I was involved but we never did anything...we never really had sex.

I don't know how it could be clearer. He was a virgin when this conversation took place which proved that he could go without sex for years.
That's all you need to explain why he could sleep in a bed with someone for a months and do nothing sexual.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

How do you know what he was doing in his private life? And none of this has anything to do with what we are discussing damn

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

sorry, which allegations do you mean?

What allegations is this thread about?

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I believe he could but that does not mean he was asexual or even that he had a low libido.

It's not relevant whether he was 100% asexual or not. What matters is that sex was not something that was on his mind while he was with Brett pr any kid
even if it was 100 or 200 or whatever days.

It also weren't 365 continuous days.

I said that myself. Karlee was wrong. Her memory was faulty.

People should try not to project themselves onto Michael.

I'm not projecting myself onto Michael I explained why I found that juror's comment arrogant as hell.
He didn't even contemplate the possibility that MJ wasn't even interested in sex like that is something completely impossible.
I've seen that mentality many times. People thinking about sex like it's food or water without which one cannot exist. That's just not the case.

Again, this does not mean a low libido either. If he had a low libido he would not have had all those magazines.

Actually those magazines do not say anything about his libido since we don't know how often he...err...used them.

There are a whole lot of reasons why someone would choose not to have sex. And just because two people stay together in a room for days or weeks or even months it does not mean they will unavoidably end up having sex. That's nonsense.

That's precisely what a lawyer should explain if this goes to trial to avoid people like that jurors having the upper hand.
Most people, including Dr. Richard Garner thought that merely sleeping in a bed is sexual.
I read that and I couldn't believe my eyes.

If that was the case then relatives sleeping in a bed was automatically sexual too.

But if this is the atitude of the average Joe in America, and this is what Chandler and Arvizo exploited then during a civil trial
one should provide an alternative explanation as to why MJ sleeping in bed with someone had nothing to do with sex.
I think it's obvious. You cannot just brush this issue aside and hope that it won't influence the jurors.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think the context make it absolutely clear, especially knowing that he was a JW

I don't know how it could be clearer. He was a virgin when this conversation took place which proved that he could go without sex for years.
That's all you need to explain why he could sleep in a bed with someone for a months and do nothing sexual.

The different between us is that I don't claim I know what he didn't do. One thing, he left JW in mid 80's. Second thing, the context does not make anything clear. Third thing, did it accure to you that you don't have to be in a real relationship in order to have sex with someone? Last thing, you just took two things that were said seperately and put them together for it to be "absolutely clear". Smooth... NOT. So still nothing here is "absolutely clear".

How do you know what he was doing in his private life? And none of this has anything to do with what we are discussing damn

Thank you.

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

How do you know what he was doing in his private life? And none of this has anything to do with what we are discussing damn

I'm talking about what HE actually SAID. So you say we cannot know aspects of his private life not even if he talks about those aspect himself in no uncertain terms?

yes it is relevant because Robson and Safechuck and every other creep who accused MJ based their case on the idea that
he slept in bed with them because he wanted sex.

When Joe Q hears that Robson slept in a bed with MJ and knows nothing about MJ's sexual history he will automatically assume that MJ had sex with Robson.
If you want to counter that very notion you need to explain MJ's interest or lack of interest in sex.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What allegations is this thread about?

lol... got a bit lost in that off topic zone :swoon2: :flowers:

 

[barbee0715]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think the context make it absolutely clear, especially knowing that he was a JW




I don't know how it could be clearer. He was a virgin when this conversation took place which proved that he could go without sex for years.
That's all you need to explain why he could sleep in a bed with someone for a months and do nothing sexual.

This means Nothing!!! Being in a relationship and having sex are 2 different things! You can think about sex every second of the day and still not want to have sex with a kid!!

Move on. Please.

 

[aldebran]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Third thing, did it accure to you that you don't have to be in a real relationship in order to have sex with someone?

It did but that's how being raised as a JW comes in the picture and what he told Schmuley about how values associated with being a JW affected his relationship with women.
Yes he disfellowshipped himself but that doesn't mean those values went away. After all he cried when he first celebrated Christmas. You don't do that if you have completely rejected that religion.

Last thing, you just took two things that were said seperately and put them together for it to be "absolutely clear". Smooth... NOT. So still nothing here is "absolutely clear".



Thank you.

No they were not said separately. Watch the video. One follows the other.