[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Someone compared Jimmy Savile to MJ and this was my reply:

Jimmy Savile dies and HUNDREDS of people come forward to claim he molested them, now there is nothing to make sure they keep their silence, no pay offs no threats nothing, they just kept coming all these savile abused people!! the man is gone they have nothing to loose they can finally get justice....Michael Jackson dies ...so where are you all?? nothing to keep your silence ..no pay offs...no threats ... where are all these young boys?? your adults now ... come on you can now come forward, get justice by telling the world ...still no one?....oh yes 2 steps forward but 5 years AFTER he dies--claiming that they just now realize that what happened to them was wrong and now want compensation for it whereas the other victims knew all along that it was wrong and didn't go around praising and defending their abuser to everyone who would listen.

I think it would have been better if you had pointed out the HUGE difference between this case against MJ and all those historic abuse cases which is that Michael was accused, tried and acquitted during his lifetime. This is significant because there is not a real good reason for these people to come out and accuse him now - amongst monetary demands - when they denied abuse when money was not involved for them in 2005.

Thing is with those historic abuse cases like Saville that those people were never accused during their lifetime and people never thought about them that way. They were respected members of their community. So when a person like that dies and someone comes out accusing him and then dozens and hundreds of others follow, that is a very different situation than Robson and Safechuck's. The alleged victims of Saville can reasonably claim that they have not come out earlier because they felt alone, isolated, because they were afraid no one would believe them etc.Which is usually the reason why victims do not come forward for long. Something that neiter Robson or Safechuck can reasonably claim after 1993, let alone 2005.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Respect, thank you for taking the time to make that post on 'Conversations with a pedophile', that was really interesting. Sick and disturbing :bugeyed, but interesting to read this from the POV of 'Alan'. Seeing how a pedophile thinks and acts is probably the best way to prove Michael wasn't one. His character & behavior in no way resembles that of a pedophile, it just really doesn't make any sense!

What I was specifically interested in (and I wonder if there's more on that subject in there?) is how he reacts towards children that don't submit to him. He said there were children who let him go to a certain point but wouldn't 'allow' him to go any further, and how he would try everything in his power to make them do what he wanted, then if they didn't he was quick to drop them for the next. But what if he felt there just wasn't an opportunity with a certain child, even before he tried anything with them? If their personalities didn't make them a 'suitable victim' or their family bonds were too strong to expect them to keep quiet.. Was he capable or even interested in continuing to spend time with them?

It's not addressed directly but I don't get the impression from the book he continued friendships with children whom he did not think could be molested. He seems to have been totally consumed by the goal of molesting children, the planning, the plotting, the manipulations. I don't think he had time for any other type of relationships, nor do I think he had the will. Pedophiles do not love children. They do not like their company, they do not like them as persons. They just view them as objects, as means to satisfy their desires. In fact, there even seems to be an emotionally sadistic streak in pedophilia - ie. the offender gets this sense of power that he so desires from seeing his victims emotionally struggle.

Funny, that Wade picked this book to say it helped him to understand Michael's mind when the guy in it is actually the complete opposite of Michael. Just shows how Wade talks all kind of BS just to manipulate his audience.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The alleged victims of Saville can reasonably claim that they have not come out earlier because they felt alone, isolated, because they were afraid no one would believe them etc.Which is usually the reason why victims do not come forward for long.

Totally agree. Although some saville victims did go to the police with allegations way before he died and it was covered up and nothing done. Same thing with cyril smith (some liberal politician,big locally but not nationally), he had boys accusing him to the auths and nothing was done. This is why i'm still stunned at the usa, you get one boy making allegations against mj in 93, the biggest star ever, and wham within a few days you get neverland raided, full investigation, media on high alert, everything. No attempt to speak to mj presumably, as he was away in asia. Is america just really good at investigating child abuse with no fear or favour of the rich and famous unlike the uk, or is it just mj that gets this treatment. I'm not american so i have no idea.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Is america just really good at investigating child abuse with no fear or favour of the rich and famous unlike the uk, or is it just mj that gets this treatment. I'm not american so i have no idea.

Well, in the Sandusky case there was police cover up as well:

One child's mother reported the incident to Penn State police when he came home with his hair wet. After an investigation by Detective Ronald Shreffler, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar chose not to prosecute. Shreffler testified before the Grand Jury that director of the campus police, Thomas Harmon, told him to drop the case.

Under Pennsylvania law of the time, any state employee who learned about suspected child abuse was required to report the incident to his immediate supervisor. In the case of the 2002 incident, McQueary reported the incident to his immediate supervisor, Paterno. In turn, Paterno reported the incident to his immediate supervisor, Curley, and also reported it to Gary Schultz, who oversaw the campus police at the time. For these reasons, Paterno and McQueary were not implicated in any criminal wrongdoing, since they did what they were legally required to do.[SUP][35][/SUP][SUP][85][/SUP][SUP][86][/SUP][SUP][87][/SUP] However, once the incident came to light, Paterno was criticized for not reporting the incident to police, or at least seeing to it that it was reported.[SUP][88][/SUP] Several advocates for victims of sexual abuse argued that Paterno should have faced charges for not going to the police himself when it was apparent Penn State officials were unwilling to act.[SUP][89][/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_child_sex_abuse_scandal

 

[la_cienega]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

But like Alan describes, the only time he spent with children was in order to either groom or molest them. He wasn't interested in a friendship, the only thing on his mind was sexually abusing these children. In fact, I guess it would have been completely impossible for someone so obsessed to spend that much time with a child, be alone with them, share a bed with them and NOT try anything with them. Pedophilia isn't something that only comes out at certain times, you either are or you aren't and if you are, apparently it's something that completely takes you over to the point where you have to give in to these urges.
So if Michael really would have been a pedophile, then why and how was he able to hold such close yet innocent friendships with these kids, for years - even into adulthood? You can't just turn a switch and have a harmless friendship with one kid, then molest the other. Fact is, these people who've spent A LOT of time with Michael, went on holidays with him, on tour with him, stayed at his house, and insist he did absolutely nothing wrong and was the nicest guy they'd ever met have NO reason to lie about that, unlike the ones who claim he was the opposite - $$$.

Great point. It only makes sense if you pretend every child was abused - which is what some people end up doing. Claiming Mack, Brett, Spence, Feldman, his nephews, cousins, Emmanuel Lewis, Omer Bhatti, were all victims.

But then there's Dave Dave. Ryan White. His own children.

And the girls he befriended.

So it becomes this bizarre idea that perhaps he only selected very few random kids very rarely to abuse long term - like perhaps 7 or 8 his entire life.

And that the rest were exactly as he described, innocent friendships.

But then that makes no sense when we have Wade claiming it was the second night he was abused. That would mean he was an opportunist seeking to abuse everyone in sight.

Just none of it ever makes any sense.

And yes, the lack of sadism in MJ is also something completely at odds with this idea. Wade claims MJ did brutal physical acts, sadistic degrading things. None of it could be portrayed as MJ pretending the child enjoyed it. None of it could be this idea MJ pretended it was love.

And yet MJ lacked that in his interactions with children outside of that, or with any people or animals. Apparently just these 7/8 boys his entire life, those were the only people he managed to turn into a total monster around.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

But then that makes no sense when we have Wade claiming it was the second night he was abused. That would mean he was an opportunist seeking to abuse everyone in sight.

Yes, that's another thing. Wade says MJ started to molest him immediately and would molest him at every opportunity they were alone until he was 14. James says he was molested about 100 times. This would suggest a guy who is insatiable. So insatiable that he cannot wait to molest Wade so much that he's even taking HUGE risks - like Chantal sleeping upstairs and not properly grooming Wade. But then if he was so insatiable how come he molested a couple of boys in the early 90s then stopped then molested Gavin 10 years later and that was it?

If he's portrayed as such an insatiable monster then it's the kind of pedophile who should have hundreds of victims.

 

[la_cienega]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Apparently it goes Jonathan Spence when MJ was 25, Safechuck at the age of 30, Wade, Mack, Brett, Jordan, then Wade a bit longer and maybe Brett, then Omer... then Gavin? Who he'd known for 3 years by that point and had deliberately avoided when he was at the right age for him, 10-13, instead of 13, which is when he apparently always ditched kids?

What a consistent pattern for an obsessive predator who needed it so badly he set up rooms, alarms, got a hold of child porn from a pedophile ring, and molested kids the second day of meeting them.

Apparently the only kid who got the whole thing was Safechuck - alarms, secret rooms, alcohol, child porn, MARRIAGE, I'm assuming rape too. Things Jordan and Gavin never got.

 

[dannyboy72]

Respect, thank you for taking the time to make that post on 'Conversations with a pedophile', that was really interesting. Sick and disturbing :bugeyed, but interesting to read this from the POV of 'Alan'. Seeing how a pedophile thinks and acts is probably the best way to prove Michael wasn't one. His character & behavior in no way resembles that of a pedophile, it just really doesn't make any sense!

What I was specifically interested in (and I wonder if there's more on that subject in there?) is how he reacts towards children that don't submit to him. He said there were children who let him go to a certain point but wouldn't 'allow' him to go any further, and how he would try everything in his power to make them do what he wanted, then if they didn't he was quick to drop them for the next. But what if he felt there just wasn't an opportunity with a certain child, even before he tried anything with them? If their personalities didn't make them a 'suitable victim' or their family bonds were too strong to expect them to keep quiet.. Was he capable or even interested in continuing to spend time with them?
In Michael's case, it's a fact he's had completely innocent, close friendships with kids like Mac, Brett Barnes or Frank Cascio. They insist nothing ever happened, he was never inappropriate, they just simply hung out together. But like Alan describes, the only time he spent with children was in order to either groom or molest them. He wasn't interested in a friendship, the only thing on his mind was sexually abusing these children. In fact, I guess it would have been completely impossible for someone so obsessed to spend that much time with a child, be alone with them, share a bed with them and NOT try anything with them. Pedophilia isn't something that only comes out at certain times, you either are or you aren't and if you are, apparently it's something that completely takes you over to the point where you have to give in to these urges.
So if Michael really would have been a pedophile, then why and how was he able to hold such close yet innocent friendships with these kids, for years - even into adulthood? You can't just turn a switch and have a harmless friendship with one kid, then molest the other. Fact is, these people who've spent A LOT of time with Michael, went on holidays with him, on tour with him, stayed at his house, and insist he did absolutely nothing wrong and was the nicest guy they'd ever met have NO reason to lie about that, unlike the ones who claim he was the opposite - $$$.
Also interesting is how Alan describes how he did his best to not be associated with kids, he was really worried people would wonder why he spent so much time with children. Makes sense - if you're doing something you know is illegal and wrong, you're gonna try to cover it up as much as you can and not draw any attention to it. Why don't people understand that a pedophile would NEVER be as open with his love for children as Michael was? And he wasn't just open about it, he agreed to be in documentaries, photoshoots and commercials with his actual 'victims', hugging them, holding their hands..? He would have been the dumbest pedophile ever, while on the other hand being the most brilliant one for being able to molest children while being under investigation by the FBI without ever getting caught.. :smilerolleyes:

Yeah this was the same thing I was saying about the 2005 case. Why would MJ put Gavin in the documentary if he had planned on molesting the child? If I was a pedophile and had been investigated before, there's no way in hell that I would ask one of my potential victims to be in a documentary with me that's going to air on national tv and sit there holding hands with him and talk about us sleeping in the same bedroom.

I like this quote from Geraldo:

“All of the charges are subsequent to Martin Bashir’s damning documentary. Tom Sneddon would have us believe that Martin Bashir does this documentary that alleges Michael Jackson is a pedophile, Michael Jackson watches it on TV and says “Hey what a great idea. I’m gonna go out and molest a kid.” And then from there, from February 6th on, he starts these allegations. I think that it is preposturous“

 

[myosotis]

Yeah this was the same thing I was saying about the 2005 case. Why would MJ put Gavin in the documentary if he had planned on molesting the child? If I was a pedophile and had been investigated before, there's no way in hell that I would ask one of my potential victims to be in a documentary with me that's going to air on national tv and sit there holding hands with him and talk about us sleeping in the same bedroom.

I like the quote from Geraldo:

“All of the charges are subsequent to Martin Bashir’s damning documentary. Tom Sneddon would have us believe that Martin Bashir does this documentary that alleges Michael Jackson is a pedophile, Michael Jackson watches it on TV and says “Hey what a great idea. I’m gonna go out and molest a kid.” And then from there, from February 6th on, he starts these allegations. I think that it is preposturous“

Not just the documentary though...all those years of attending completely public events with boys who were often dressed the same as him, performing on stage, in adverts, visiting Disneyland etc ...that really sets MJ apart...his friendships were all public...nothing was hidden and lots of events were photographed and / or filmed.

 

[HIStory]

I like the quote from Geraldo:

“All of the charges are subsequent to Martin Bashir’s damning documentary. Tom Sneddon would have us believe that Martin Bashir does this documentary that alleges Michael Jackson is a pedophile, Michael Jackson watches it on TV and says “Hey what a great idea. I’m gonna go out and molest a kid.” And then from there, from February 6th on, he starts these allegations. I think that it is preposturous“

Not only that. According to their final timeline MJ actually started to molest Gavin on February 20, AFTER the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office and the Child Protection Services started their investigations against him for the Bashir documentary and WHILE those investigations were still ongoing! So he did not molest him for three years but once an investigation starts he's like "I have not molested him so far, but hey, why not give my good, old friend, Tom Sneddon what he wants? Let me start to molest him now that they are investigating me!"

Actually this is the story one has to believe to believe the whole Arvizo crazy mess.

 

[dannyboy72]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Not only that. According to their final timeline MJ actually started to molest Gavin on February 20, AFTER the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office and the Child Protection Services started their investigations against him for the Bashir documentary and WHILE those investigations were still ongoing! So he did not molest him for three years but once an investigation starts he's like "I have not molested him so far, but hey, why not give my good, old friend, Tom Sneddon what he wants? Let me start to molest him now that they are investigating me!"

Actually this is the story one has to believe to believe the whole Arvizo crazy mess.

Yeah many jurors stated that the timeline was the biggest problem because it made no sense. Ron zonen tried to explained it away during his closing argument. He said: "Why would he molest Gavin after the Bashir documentary? because he could. That's why. That kid was in love with him. He would do anything he said"

Given MJ's history with sick children including various cancer patients, what exactly makes Gavin so special that he would ply him with alcohol and sexually abuse him?

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Apparently it goes Jonathan Spence when MJ was 25, Safechuck at the age of 30, Wade, Mack, Brett, Jordan, then Wade a bit longer and maybe Brett, then Omer... then Gavin? Who he'd known for 3 years by that point and had deliberately avoided when he was at the right age for him, 10-13, instead of 13, which is when he apparently always ditched kids?

Poor old gavin seemed to have got the 'grooming for separation' before he was actually molested or indeed had any type of friendship. Which all makes perfect sense, lol.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

He said: "Why would he molest Gavin after the Bashir documentary? because he could. That's why. That kid was in love with him. He would do anything he said"

Wow, what a great explanation. *sarcasm*

I swear it's Michael's accusers who say the weirdest and creepiest things. And they judge Michael?

And it's not even true Gavin was a boy who was "in love with" MJ (whichever way Zonen meant that). He was actually never really a fan of Michael.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I swear it's Michael's accusers who say the weirdest and creepiest things. And they judge Michael?

Exactly and that what get me the things their say. Let Michael say it and he is weird.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^Not only kids who accused him, also ex employees like we saw recently again. They're fuking sick of their heads, but Michael still is that disgusting and racist moniker.

On the Saville and Sandusky cover ups by the authorities, racism much? When Michael was accused, Neverland was raided in a matter of days with more cops than when they raid serial killers. And Sandusky didn't go under a humiliating strip search Michael went through.

 

[dannyboy72]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Wow, what a great explanation. *sarcasm*

I swear it's Michael's accusers who say the weirdest and creepiest things. And they judge Michael?

And it's not even true Gavin was a boy who was "in love with" MJ (whichever way Zonen meant that). He was actually never really a fan of Michael.

Zonen also said that MJ and Brett Barnes were in a sexual relationship, that MJ loved him not like a man would love a child but like a man would love a woman.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I'd question more their state of mind and perversion in it than Michael's.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Zonen , was not it revealed at some point there was a cover up by the DA office in SB concerning Zonan snorting coke ?

 

[dannyboy72]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^what are you referring to?

 

[dannyboy72]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Oh and someone mentioned on another forum that if MJ was really a homosexual pedophile who just couldn't control himself then he would have certainly molested his own sons. I found this very interesting because I've read so many stories about pedophiles adopting children and using them as their little sex toys. Even Jerry Sandusky's own adopted son says his dad molested him.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ Danny, if you want to talk about your discussions with haters, there is a seperate thread for that: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/133197-Debates-with-the-public

Let's not make this thread about them. We know already there are a lot of ignorant opinions out there.

ETA: Sorry, I misread your previous post. That was not a hater apparently but defending MJ. But I still say let's not make this thread about debates with haters if possible (I have seen a couple of comments focusing on them.)

 

[dannyboy72]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^oh no, that wasn't from a hater. It was from someone who was saying that MJ wasn't a pedophile because if he was then he would have certainly abused his own children. They were saying he didn't have the same characteristics as real offenders.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^oh no, that wasn't from a hater. It was from someone who was saying that MJ wasn't a pedophile because if he was then he would have certainly abused his own children. They were saying he didn't have the same characteristics as real offenders.

OK, now I realized my mistake - I did not notice the "if" in the sentence. Sorry.

 

[Lil]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Great point. It only makes sense if you pretend every child was abused - which is what some people end up doing. Claiming Mack, Brett, Spence, Feldman, his nephews, cousins, Emmanuel Lewis, Omer Bhatti, were all victims.

Unfortunately when it comes to Michael people suddenly believe the most unlikely things. I can think of a motivation to say something happened while it didn't, but what possible motivation could there be for a whole group of people, knowing about the allegations & while repeatedly being asked about it, to say nothing happened if it did? There's no logic on earth to explain that imo :ermm:

Yes, that's another thing. Wade says MJ started to molest him immediately and would molest him at every opportunity they were alone until he was 14.

Yeah, I was really surprised when I first read this. I mean, his story is hard enough to believe as it is; he supposedly got brutally abused, and although he wasn't 'stuck' with Michael (like with a family member or teacher) he still spent time with him, defended him in court, kept in contact for over 20 years, never realized what happened between them was wrong..
Now, for that scenario to even be remotely believable, he had to have been really, really, REALLY brainwashed by Michael, yet there was no grooming, no preparations, no manipulating, no gaining of trust, no bribes needed to achieve this, nothing at all?! :brow:
He is clearly trying to squeeze ever possible dollar out of every minute he ever spent with Michael, but with that he's only making his story less believable:dntknw:

 

[IrishFaery]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Totally agree. Although some saville victims did go to the police with allegations way before he died and it was covered up and nothing done. Same thing with cyril smith (some liberal politician,big locally but not nationally), he had boys accusing him to the auths and nothing was done. This is why i'm still stunned at the usa, you get one boy making allegations against mj in 93, the biggest star ever, and wham within a few days you get neverland raided, full investigation, media on high alert, everything. No attempt to speak to mj presumably, as he was away in asia. Is america just really good at investigating child abuse with no fear or favour of the rich and famous unlike the uk, or is it just mj that gets this treatment. I'm not american so i have no idea.

It all has to do with Michael's race amongst other things. But that is another long post for another day.

 

[LindavG]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think it's dangerous to argue that Michael could not be a pedophile because he didn't fit a certain stereotype. There's no such thing as a "typical" pedophile, just like there is no such thing as a typical heterosexual or homosexual. This is why so many pedophiles are never caught; no one suspects them of being capable of such vile acts because they seem just like one of us. It's better to just point out the contradictions in Wade's statements than to go down this road. That alone is reason enough to assume he's full of it.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think it's dangerous to argue that Michael could not be a pedophile because he didn't fit a certain stereotype. There's no such thing as a "typical" pedophile, just like there is no such thing as a typical heterosexual or homosexual. This is why so many pedophiles are never caught; no one suspects them of being capable of such vile acts because they seem just like one of us. It's better to just point out the contradictions in Wade's statements than to go down this road. That alone is reason enough to assume he's full of it.

But when Wade himself uses a book about a pedophile to say somehow it describes the mind of MJ, when that's just the complete opposite, it needs to be pointed out.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^I've read abstracts of that book (I need to find it full) and Michael wasn't a sadist in any way but a kind and sweet creature. He was quite open with his association with children, he didn't hide it, while that Alan twisted fuk was very careful of that and didn't like their company. I could read the Dr. wrote Alan was selfish, he only cared to satisfy his urges while Michael was excessively generous. Robson is throwing stupid claims out of nowhere, any child who continued their friendship with him into adulthood could easily dismiss it testifying the goodness in his character.

 

[analogue]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So apparently Cliff Richard as been accused of child molestation. I wonder if the media will treat him the same way the treated Michael. By twisting facts or just flat out lying to make him look guilty before any evidence is seen. Or will they treat Cliff Richard more fairly

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So apparently Cliff Richard as been accused of child molestation. I wonder if the media will treat him the same way the treated Michael. By twisting facts or just flat out lying to make him look guilty before any evidence is seen. Or will they treat Cliff Richard more fairly

The public treats him just like they did Michael. Yesterday on LSA (a general forum) people were talking about it as if it's a fact he did it. A mere accusation is enough for people to judge a person - without even knowing anything further about the accuser or what he alleges.