Latest on MJJC

Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

I wondered about the mention of catheters in the room as well. First thing I thought of is that sometimes iv's are referred to as "catheters", ie the actual plastic like device over a metal needle that is inserted into a vein and then the metal "needle" is withdrawn from the plastic "catheter" leaving the "catheter" in place and then the iv tubing hooked to that.

Or maybe as has been mentioned in the autopsy about the prostrate, perhaps a urinary catheter was upon occasion necessary, be it a simple "straight" catheter, or a foley catheter which can be left in place. Or, an external catheter left in place while Michael was "sleeping" in case of incontinance. And Beachlover is right, external caths rarely stay in place unless the person doesn't move around or is very well anatomically "blessed", so to speak.
 
so it doesnt say which catherter it was ie urinal or the one from the IV.? confused now lol
 
nena said:
Michael Jackson's Guitarist Manager Bruce Edwin Reports on Autopsy Summary

Bruce Edwin, who is CEO of the celebrity talent management firm Starpower Management, who managed guitarist David Williams (guitarist on Thriller, Off the Wall, etc., who also passed on last year), states, "I have reviewed over twenty pages of the coroners and criminalist report of Michael today, and what fans of Michael should know from these findings are the following; Number one, Michael Jackson was, although too thin, at nearly six foot and 136 pounds, generally in good health.
Secondly, details Mr. Edwin, 7 drugs were found in his system, and two in particular, propofol, and benzodiazepine, caused his death due to creating the inability to breath and undue strain being put on his heart due to these drugs.
Thirdly, Bruce Edwin continues, the autopsy, which involved many biopsies of various parts of the body and organs, concluded the experts' findings that Michael most likely did not administer these drugs into himself.
It is suspected, Bruce Edwin goes on, that Dr. Conrad Murray was reportedly the one present who administered these drugs into Michael. The autopsy report further details that the person who presumably gave Michael these drugs through an I.V. in to his leg, did so without following proper safety procedure, and did so reportedly for the reason of insomnia, and that these drugs are not supposed to be used to treat insomnia.
Bruce Edwin adds, Michael's guitarist, David Willliams confided to me early last year that Michael had been addicted to pills and drugs for some time, and that the Jackson family was aware of this, and that there was at least one person in Michael's home that was enabling him, and possibly more, and that one particular person who generally answered the phone was the person attempting to block the family from communicating with their son Michael. The talent manager further states that David Williams and at least one of the other Jackson brothers were attempting to do an intervention to save Michael, but that their efforts were being blocked by a person in the house to save him.
Mr. Edwin, who is also a producer, and attended the repass of Mr. Jackson, lastly states, I feel that the family knows who is responsible for the tragic loss of life of the world's biggest star, and music's legend. I feel they know who did it, and they are going after him. It won't bring Michael back, but it will help them with some closure, and they deserve it.
Click to expand...

Questions?

1) Is there a link to this story? That would make it more credible.

2) Was any of the drugs listed in Michael's body, pain meds? Assuming that's why this guy means by "addicted to pills and drugs for some time".

3) Isn't it true that pain meds stays in the body several months after taking it? Therefore if there were none detected from the Loyds of London physical and the autopsy means to me MJ was no addict. An addict need it's drug regularly.

4) Doesn't chronic back pain require constant medicating?
I do a very physical job and over the years several co-workers injured their backs and are taking meds and are still able to work. Does it make them addicts even when their bodies create tolerance to the meds and they increase dosage or switch meds?
 
Last edited:
After reading this report-which as I said made me feel so sick and so sad I believe the bottom line was that Mike was healthy in the medical sense that nothing he suffered from would end of in his death.
You could say I am unhealthy- I have asthma, fibromyalgia, eye problems all chronic but they will not kill me. Dr. Murray killed Michael. Remember Michael was 50yrs old not twenty. He was bound to have some minor health issues, but these were not a danger his health and cause or lead to his passing. It's hard to accept, to fanthom but this is what I think.
 
bgz said:
I wondered about the mention of catheters in the room as well. First thing I thought of is that sometimes iv's are referred to as "catheters", ie the actual plastic like device over a metal needle that is inserted into a vein and then the metal "needle" is withdrawn from the plastic "catheter" leaving the "catheter" in place and then the iv tubing hooked to that.

Or maybe as has been mentioned in the autopsy about the prostrate, perhaps a urinary catheter was upon occasion necessary, be it a simple "straight" catheter, or a foley catheter which can be left in place. Or, an external catheter left in place while Michael was "sleeping" in case of incontinance. And Beachlover is right, external caths rarely stay in place unless the person doesn't move around or is very well anatomically "blessed", so to speak.
Click to expand...

Well Damn!! That catheter sayed on through all that mess.

:wub::wub::wub::wub:
 
honestly reading the report his prostate problems didn't come across as that severe for him to use catheters imo. If he had found ''natural sleep'' without propofol I doubt he'd have to use an urinary catheter/condom catheter. I think these only came to use b/c he was literally ''out'' under propofol without any control of his body/needs. imo.
 
Another thing I just thought of in r/t a catheter in the ER, possibly one was placed to obtain a urine sample for analysis/tox screen/etc. And I think all things are left in place if an autopsy is to be performed, at least from my experience.
 
riviera1992 said:
Questions?

1) Is there a link to this story? That would make it more credible.

2) Was any of the drugs listed in Michael's body, pain meds? Assuming that's why this guy means by "addicted to pills and drugs for some time".

3) Isn't true that pain meds stays in the body several months after taking it? Therefore if there were none detected from the Loyds of London physical and the autopsy means to me MJ was no addict. An addict need it's drug regularly.

4) Doesn't chronic back pain require constant medicating?
I do a very physical job and over the years several co-workers injured their backs and are taking meds and are still able to work. Does it make them addicts even when their bodies create tolerance to the meds and they increase dosage or switch meds?
Click to expand...

There were no drugs of that nature found in MJ's system at the time of death. They did hair analysis but we didn't get those results. So, yes, some drugs stay in the body for months. I don't know if Lloyds of London cares whether or not he had drugs in his system. They would care if he was healthy. (not saying one way or another if they tested....but I have seen many a rock band perform and aren't they insured too?"....just sayin'

Chronic back pain? Everyone handles their own pain differently. I am the type of person that hardly ever takes anything including Tylenol. There are some who want pain meds if their eyelashes feel funny.

Safe to say they didn't find any opiates in his body at the time of death. He didn't take them at least not that day.
 
Lord have mercy!!! I would have never thought I would be reading this about MJ. It hurt so much. And to think this did NOT have to happen.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
ok so it was an IV catherther they found so the urinal one is talk from us and nothing more?
Click to expand...

He did indeed have an EXTERNAL uriniary appliance on which is called an external catheter or Texas Catheter in some places.

Another thing I just thought of in r/t a catheter in the ER, possibly one was placed to obtain a urine sample for analysis/tox screen/etc. And I think all things are left in place if an autopsy is to be performed, at least from my experience.

Yes, thats why I thought maybe it was placed in the hospital although you made me smile with the last explanation. On the other hand, they could just straight cath him for a sample, but you never know.

Yes, everyone should note that when something like this happens they do not remove anything from the patient when autopsy will be performed. They leave it as is.
 
daisy said:
Is it true that out of these medicines found in Michael´s body "two in particular, propofol, and benzodiazepine, caused his death due to creating the inability to breath and undue strain being put on his heart due to these drugs."???

He says about two drugs here that caused death.
In combination?

I am wondering whether Michael was conscious at the time of being administered propofol.
Click to expand...

I don't believe he was awake, and this is why I think Murray should be charged with Murder, but I guess it has to be proven and they would have to find motive for Murray to have wanted Michael dead.
 
guys the point I tried to make , if we want to believe Murray injcted him and left and then minutes later MJ died , then the propofol concentration would have droped , 4.1 is within the range of blood concentration after 1 minutes of bolus injection . There was no propofol in the bag , there was no propofol in the long tube associated with the bag , the propofol was detected in the IV and the short tube associated with the Y connecter. So Murray pushed it directly into the IV , HE DID NOT USE AN IV DRIP . Did he push it and leave IMMEDIATELY ? He did not even wait for one minute ? DO you follow me ?

second he was using a pulse oximeter , they found it along with everything he used that day in his room HIDDEN like everything else , would not his oximeter warned him immediatley ? ofcourse .

then comes the amount in MJ's urine , very little . He wanted to use it to sleep and he used lorazepam ok , he used half the amount OK , but for how long 25 mg or even 50 or even 100 mg would have kept him sleep ? 3 minutes , 5 minutes , HALF AN HOUR , where does the 8 HOURS OF SLEEP STORY GOES THEN ?
Just asking , was he injecting MJ like that everynight and MJ did not drop dead on the FIRST NIGHT , OR THE SECOND NIGHT ...............MURRAY WAS THAT MUCH SKILLED THAT MJ SURVIVED SIX WEEKS OF NEARLY DEATH EXPERIENCE WITH EVERY BOLUS INJECTION WOW ? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean THIS STORY IS SOOOOOOO WRONG on SOOOO MANY LEVELS .

I want to know what amount he purchased because I HAVE SERIOUS DOUBT .
 
Soundmind said:
guys the point I tried to make , if we want to believe Murray injcted him and left and then minutes later MJ died , then the propofol concentration would have droped , 4.1 is within the range of blood concentration after 1 minutes of bolus injection . There was no propofol in the bag , there was no propofol in the long tube associated with the bag , the propofol was detected in the IV and the short tube associated with the Y connecter. So Murray pushed it directly into the IV , HE DID NOT USE AN IV DRIP . Did he push it and leave IMMEDIATELY ? He did not even wait for one minute ? DO you follow me ?
Click to expand...
I was just going to ask, why would he inject an anaesthetic directly into the line instead of mixing the propofol into the medium in the IV bag? If a gravity-fed IV is already risky, surely this is even more so?

second he was using a pulse oximeter , they found it along with everything he used that day in his room HIDDEN like everything else , would not his oximeter warned him immediatley ? ofcourse .
Click to expand...
If he was even using it that night. It seems very odd to me that he had inadequate monitoring, and even such devices as he did have, the oximeter and the blood-pressure cuff, were in a closet in the next room. Did he hide them after the fact, or did he just never use them?

Just asking , was he injecting MJ like that everynight and MJ did not drop dead on the FIRST NIGHT , OR THE SECOND NIGHT ...............MURRAY WAS THAT MUCH SKILLED THAT MJ SURVIVED SIX WEEKS OF NEARLY DEATH EXPERIENCE WITH EVERY BOLUS INJECTION WOW ? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean THIS STORY IS SOOOOOOO WRONG on SOOOO MANY LEVELS .
Click to expand...
It certainly...leaves a lot to be explained.
 
Soundmind said:
guys the point I tried to make , if we want to believe Murray injcted him and left and then minutes later MJ died , then the propofol concentration would have droped , 4.1 is within the range of blood concentration after 1 minutes of bolus injection . There was no propofol in the bag , there was no propofol in the long tube associated with the bag , the propofol was detected in the IV and the short tube associated with the Y connecter. So Murray pushed it directly into the IV , HE DID NOT USE AN IV DRIP . Did he push it and leave IMMEDIATELY ? He did not even wait for one minute ? DO you follow me ?

second he was using a pulse oximeter , they found it along with everything he used that day in his room HIDDEN like everything else , would not his oximeter warned him immediatley ? ofcourse .

then comes the amount in MJ's urine , very little . He wanted to use it to sleep and he used lorazepam ok , he used half the amount OK , but for how long 25 mg or even 50 or even 100 mg would have kept him sleep ? 3 minutes , 5 minutes , HALF AN HOUR , where does the 8 HOURS OF SLEEP STORY GOES THEN ?
Just asking , was he injecting MJ like that everynight and MJ did not drop dead on the FIRST NIGHT , OR THE SECOND NIGHT ...............MURRAY WAS THAT MUCH SKILLED THAT MJ SURVIVED SIX WEEKS OF NEARLY DEATH EXPERIENCE WITH EVERY BOLUS INJECTION WOW ? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean THIS STORY IS SOOOOOOO WRONG on SOOOO MANY LEVELS .

I want to know what amount he purchased because I HAVE SERIOUS DOUBT .
Click to expand...

Sound, I am presently looking at Propofol metabolism and Propofol is excreted in the urine and I am trying to figure out how long it takes to get to the urine or if it could be from a prior 24 hours or 48 hrs, etc. The amounts in urine reported are low if it was in the studies I saw (0.6 is not uncommon, etc)
 
the fact that all the correct monitoring equipment was in the next room tells me he KNOWS he is supposed to use it. The fact that he KNEW that and decided NOT to use it that night (due to laziness or whatever) - THAT in itself is PREMEDITATION - he took a premeditated life threatening risk. That is not involuntary!!

Why can people on these boards figure all this stuff out and the police and lawyers dont seem to be able to?? it is sooooo frustrating!!!!!
 
Soundmind said:
guys the point I tried to make , if we want to believe Murray injcted him and left and then minutes later MJ died , then the propofol concentration would have droped , 4.1 is within the range of blood concentration after 1 minutes of bolus injection . There was no propofol in the bag , there was no propofol in the long tube associated with the bag , the propofol was detected in the IV and the short tube associated with the Y connecter. So Murray pushed it directly into the IV , HE DID NOT USE AN IV DRIP . Did he push it and leave IMMEDIATELY ? He did not even wait for one minute ? DO you follow me ?
Click to expand...

1. Murray reached the highest peak of stupidity, ignorance and lack of any responsible behaviour that it seems impossible?

Soundmind said:
second he was using a pulse oximeter , they found it along with everything he used that day in his room HIDDEN like everything else , would not his oximeter warned him immediatley ? ofcourse .
Click to expand...

2. Like RedMaryFLint said, this is not sure that he used it that night, which leads to point 1 above.

Soundmind said:
then comes the amount in MJ's urine , very little . He wanted to use it to sleep and he used lorazepam ok , he used half the amount OK , but for how long 25 mg or even 50 or even 100 mg would have kept him sleep ? 3 minutes , 5 minutes , HALF AN HOUR , where does the 8 HOURS OF SLEEP STORY GOES THEN ?
Click to expand...

3. Because propofol is NOT used for treating insomnia (see point 1)


Soundmind said:
Just asking , was he injecting MJ like that everynight and MJ did not drop dead on the FIRST NIGHT , OR THE SECOND NIGHT ...............MURRAY WAS THAT MUCH SKILLED THAT MJ SURVIVED SIX WEEKS OF NEARLY DEATH EXPERIENCE WITH EVERY BOLUS INJECTION WOW ? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? I mean THIS STORY IS SOOOOOOO WRONG on SOOOO MANY LEVELS .
Click to expand...

Oh yes, very wrong. Did he know how these meds can work together to the point of deadly danger? Is it possible Michael used it for longer time?
 
Beachlover said:
Sound, I am presently looking at Propofol metabolism and Propofol is excreted in the urine and I am trying to figure out how long it takes to get to the urine or if it could be from a prior 24 hours or 48 hrs, etc. The amounts in urine reported are low if it was in the studies I saw (0.6 is not uncommon, etc)
Click to expand...

the urine bladder was 550 , so that would cover a period of at least 12 hours . If mj used it for hours the propofol concentration would have been much higher than that , and where did you get the number 0.6 ? I think it was 0.15 in Mj's case
 
RedMaryFlint said:
I was just going to ask, why would he inject an anaesthetic directly into the line instead of mixing the propofol into the medium in the IV bag? If a gravity-fed IV is already risky, surely this is even more so?

Propofol is given directly into the line. You don't mix it in with a bag of IV fluids. But of course it should not be given as a bolus as Murray did, you need an infusion pump to control the rate and infuse it at a slow, steady state.
Click to expand...
 
daisy said:
1. Murray reached the highest peak of stupidity, ignorance and lack of any responsible behaviour that it seems impossible?



2. Like RedMaryFLint said, this is not sure that he used it that night, which leads to point 1 above.



3. Because propofol is NOT used for treating insomnia (see point 1)




Oh yes, very wrong. Did he know how these meds can work together to the point of deadly danger? Is it possible Michael used it for longer time?
Click to expand...

you know what if MJ was 'stupid' enough to inject himself and did not even bother and hire Murray to do it for him , he would have been alive today , because he would not have been able to overdose himslef like Murray did to him .
 
Cookie Monzter said:
RedMaryFlint said:
I was just going to ask, why would he inject an anaesthetic directly into the line instead of mixing the propofol into the medium in the IV bag? If a gravity-fed IV is already risky, surely this is even more so?
Click to expand...

Propofol is given directly into the line. You don't mix it in with a bag of IV fluids. But of course it should not be given as a bolus as Murray did, you need an infusion pump to control the rate and infuse it at a slow, steady state.
Click to expand...
But given that we already know that he didn't use an infusion pump, the alternative would have been a gravity-fed IV? So why would he inject the propofol directly into the line like that?
 
Soundmind said:
the urine bladder was 550 , so that would cover a period of at least 12 hours . If mj used it for hours the propofol concentration would have been much higher than that , and where did you get the number 0.6 ? I think it was 0.15 in Mj's case
Click to expand...

The 0.6 was to say it is not uncommon to find a low amount. I got that from looking at the link I provided which shows Propofol Metabolism in urine.

The 550gm is how much urine found inside him. Yes, the amount is 0.15 in the urine. Where are you getting 12 hours from?
 
ElleBella said:
Just a thought, it's too much of a coincidence to me that Klein brought this whole pee in a bottle to TMZ over a month ago. And they just happened to find a jar of pee at the crime scene?
Click to expand...

okay this will be slightly off topic - He told that to explain how the accuser got a glimpse. I thought that Klein exaggerated that when he said that MJ peed in cups in his house but the second explanation that they had about in concert setting is actually makes a lot of sense. I worked and toured with a rock band (all male). in some venues the restrooms will be far away and during the concert if needed they would indeed pee in cups and sometimes when there was no dressing room they would change their clothes (strip naked) at the backstage in front of other people as well. It's kinda normal backstage behavior. Perhaps it was just a habit, who knows.
 
SOUNDMIND and MJJMSC I agree with you. Michael was HEALTHY. Healthy does not mean everything is 100%. The things that were wrong were not remarkable and would not lead to death. Sometimes I wonder if fans are reading the same documents that I am reading. ALSO MICHAEL WAS NOT DOING 50 SHOWS IN A ROW. People think he would work every night for 2 hours. This was not the case. Let us find out information before we say he was too sick to do the shows. Michael simply needed a better way to sleep. Unfortunately, he never got that!!
 
RedMaryFlint said:
But given that we already know that he didn't use an infusion pump, the alternative would have been a gravity-fed IV? So why would he inject the propofol directly into the line like that?
Click to expand...


Not everything can be mixed into a bag of IV fluids. In fact most things aren't and are given by a separate infusion e.g. antibiotics, other medications etc. A pharmacist would be able to elaborate further on the actual pharmacological reasons behind this.

The reason he gave it as a bolus would be up for discussion I suppose - negligence, laziness, malicious intent?
 
You generally give an IV bolus for induction, which is to put the person 'out' and then you follow up with a maintenance dose in an iv bag.

Things don't add up for me either and I can't figure out the toxicology because I can't figure out if the Propofol in the urine is from that day or the night before. I would need to know the time it takes to reach the urinary bladder, etc. Murray said he didn't give it the night before and it looks like he did not but then again, I am not sure what their 'normal value' at 24 hours would be. According to the reports I read the level at 24 hours would be way higher than 0.15 if he had it the night before.
 
Soundmind said:
you know what if MJ was 'stupid' enough to inject himself and did not even bother and hire Murray to do it for him , he would have been alive today , because he would not have been able to overdose himslef like Murray did to him .
Click to expand...

It's hard to believe that Michael would voluntary put himself in this kind of deadly danger one night after another.

SO Murray:
- overdosed Michael with propofol
- Did not use pump or another appropriate equipment to administer it
- did not use a pulse oximeter or ignored (?) it
- left Michael

About the concentration in urine, I found 0.6 as the lowest value for the 24h (hope it's accurate info, have no med background)

What could slow down the metabolism process?
 
daisy what do you want to say?!!

Murray is a killer , you like it or not !
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top