Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[ScreenOrigami]

Sometimes I regret asking a question. :laughing:

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Sometimes I regret asking a question. :laughing:

I agree. i'm with ya.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

It's not manipulation. Michael said himself in LWMJ that he had slept in the bed with children.

Bashir: Did you ever sleep in the bed with [Gavin and Star]?
Michael: No. But I have slept in a bed with many children. I'd sleep in a bed with all of them.

No matter how innocent it was that still doesn't make it appropriate in current western society.

He ALSO said that he SHARED ( gave his bed) to all kinds of children and families, not just boys. THATs the problem that I have with the manipulation of words. The media and the public want to say that Michael only “slept” with boys because they WANT him to be gay. Do you ever wonder why the media and others completely IGNORE that Michael SPECIFICALLY stated that he SHARED his bed with CHILDREN? Again, the sick media wants to perpetuate the false narrative that Micharl “sleeps” with boys, in order to fit their narrative/ agenda of him being gay.
At least, I am thankful that some fans are now saying the word” children “instead of just spewing out the word “boys”. Thats a minuscule improvement and every moment that shows some AWARENESS is welcomed. I don’t have much faith that the ignorant media and haters will ever change their narrative because they have an agenda. Hopefully, fans will continue to realize that WORDS DO MATTER.

 

[PoP]

Society are just a bunch of idiots when it comes to Michael and kids, they should be ashamed of themselves for judging this for countless years, that’s part of the reasons why I have trust issues towards people and I don’t trust society for ruining everything (ex. Halloween).

 

[Anna]

He ALSO said that he SHARED ( gave his bed) to all kinds of children and families, not just boys. THATs the problem that I have with the manipulation of words. The media and the public want to say that Michael only “slept” with boys because they WANT him to be gay. Do you ever wonder why the media and others completely IGNORE that Michael SPECIFICALLY stated that he SHARED his bed with CHILDREN? Again, the sick media wants to perpetuate the false narrative that Micharl “sleeps” with boys, in order to fit their narrative/ agenda of him being gay.
At least, I am thankful that some fans are now saying the word” children “instead of just spewing out the word “boys”. Thats a minuscule improvement and every moment that shows some AWARENESS is welcomed. I don’t have much faith that the ignorant media and haters will ever change their narrative because they have an agenda. Hopefully, fans will continue to realize that WORDS DO MATTER.

You take offense at fans using the word 'boys' as if fans are the ones suggesting something. It's not a matter of "awareness" and it's not the fans suggesting anything. The cases involve boys and the media talk about the boys, so of course the fact that those children he let in his bed included boys is going to be the focus when discussing why it wasn't a good idea.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Have you all just been waiting for a cue? I feel like in a shark tank right now. :laughing:

Can someone please help me with my question?

 

[ozemouze]

Whenever I see people discussing LN on Twitter and the other side runs out of arguments, they almost always say something along the lines of “but he slept in bed with children”. Which is of course not a crime.

Now, last night I was watching a couple of ET News videos, and found this little gem from 2003, right after the Bashir crap aired and Sneddon initially dismissed the requests for an investigation:

I’m now looking for the primary source of this quote. Can someone here help me out with Sneddon’s press release, interview or whatever it was?

Also, feel free to use the screenshot in your discussions if you find it useful.

Sometimes I regret asking a question. :laughing:

Unfortunately I can't answer your question, but it was a funny course of responses. :laughing:

Guys, the above mentioned quote is from Sneddon, not MJ.

I've only found this article mentioning the same quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2735315.stm

Santa Barbara County District Attorney Thomas Sneddon said that under the state's law sleeping with a child without "affirmative, offensive conduct" was not a criminal offence.

"Sleeping in bed with a kid is not a crime that I know of," Mr Sneddon told the Santa Barbara News-Press.

Perhaps it was just a short statement sent to the Santa Barbara News-Press after the Bashir fiasco.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Unfortunately I can't answer your question, but it was a funny course of responses. :laughing:

Guys, the above mentioned quote is from Sneddon, not MJ.

I've only found this article mentioning the same quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2735315.stm

Perhaps it was just a short statement sent to the Santa Barbara News-Press after the Bashir fiasco.

Yes, the fact that Tom Sneddon said this is why I posted it. It’s unfortunate that ET News used a photo of MJ instead of Sneddon, but the quote is an interesting find, in my opinion.

Having the statement corroborated by BBC News is already very helpful. Thank you.

Now, if someone has the Santa Barbara News-Press document, that would be even better! Anyone?

 

[ozemouze]

It's a great find BTW! The “but he slept in bed with children” line is indeed the usual last resort after all guilter arguments got discredited - imagine destroy that too with a Sneddon quote!

It would be nice to obtain the original Santa Barbara News-Press article.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Sneddon did say something along the same lines in his press release dated February 6th, where he started to fish for “victims” to come forward.

But it’s of course not as snappy as the ET News quote.

 

[ozemouze]

It's so absurd to read reasonable sentences from Sneddon :/ (especially as you know he was about to/already fishing for victims and sneaking his card to the Arvizos). One may say he was just acting professionally, but not when you witnessed how unprofessional he was most of the time. The most probable solution is that these statements were written by others on behalf of the DA office.

It's very unfortunate indeed that ET couldn't use a Sneddon picture for that quote :/ (it's rare that you miss to see him, but that's definitely the case). It would be just perfect to use that screenshot then.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

It's very unfortunate indeed that ET couldn't use a Sneddon picture for that quote :/ (it's rare that you miss to see him, but that's definitely the case). It would be just perfect to use that screenshot then.

In the news segment, they show a video clip of Sneddon right before the quote, so in context it could hardly be misinterpreted. ET News in general often seemed to be very fair to MJ. At least that’s my impression.

 

[ozemouze]

In the news segment, they show a video clip of Sneddon right before the quote, so in context it could hardly be misinterpreted. ET News in general often seemed to be very fair to MJ. At least that’s my impression.

It's nice to hear they were fair. I understand it was clear in the given context, it's just a pity the picture itself can't really be used as a a quick reference like this. It would be so nice though, instead of getting involved into further arguments, finding videos about the size of MJ's bedroom and the other usual stuff, you could just end the topic with a quote by Sneddon of all people saying it's not a crime!

 

[ScreenOrigami]

It's nice to hear they were fair. I understand it was clear in the given context, it's just a pity the picture itself can't really be used as a a quick reference like this. It would be so nice though, instead of getting involved into further arguments, finding videos about the size of MJ's bedroom and the other usual stuff, you could just end the topic with a quote by Sneddon of all people saying it's not a crime!

You know what, I’m going to use it anyway. Should be very revealing when someone mistakes it for an MJ quote, because that shows how they come to the wrong conclusions by not actually reading what’s presented to them.

And of course there’s also a Tweet to go along with it. I don’t think the photo is that much of a problem here, all things considered.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

At the same time sneddon was pushing his business card under the arvizos door hoping they would work with him to set mj up

 

[ozemouze]

You know what, I’m going to use it anyway. Should be very revealing when someone mistakes it for an MJ quote, because that shows how they come to the wrong conclusions by not actually reading what’s presented to them.

Yeah, I was thinking about that angle too. Plus if they start to argue with the quote (thinking it's by MJ), it can be pointed out it's actually Sneddon they disagree with.

At the same time sneddon was pushing his business card under the arvizos door hoping they would work with him to set mj up

Sure. These statements obviously came from some real professional from the DA Office, not Sneddon himself. He never acted or spoke in a professional manner when you could actually witness his behavior: in press conferences or not to mention his performance at the trial, where he was so disorganized that he had to stand down basically and let Zonen do the job (he lost the "trial of his carrier" even before the verdict).

But it's still the official legal standpoint they had to release, and should have proceeded accordingly, and as such, worth for quoting.

 

[ozemouze]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">After filming Leaving Neverland, Shane and Chantal Robson seek help from Scott Ross, the man who helped acquit their brothers' alleged abuser. Cos that's makes perfect sense right? &#55358;&#56609; <a href="https://t.co/kc8luI6GtS">pic.twitter.com/kc8luI6GtS</a></p>&mdash; Troy (@MrTroy_) <a href="https://twitter.com/MrTroy_/status/1277948526526263298?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 30, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm not sure if this Scott Ross interview was talked about here before. It's just a funny montage to highlight the contradictions (full video here, not just about the MJ case: https://youtu.be/N7cchBnulgQ), and some of the things he says were already known (he worked together with Shane Robson and considers him a friend).

What I've found interesting here is that they also worked together weeks before LN came out, but Shane didn't tell him anything about it. It's already strange to work with someone who you think is a complicit in a crime, but it's the "not saying anything about it" part is what caught my ear. Shane also knows it's a scam, and was ashamed about it when facing Ross? Why wouldn't he talk about it, moreover confront Ross if he believed Wade?

 

[ChrisC]

It's not manipulation. Michael said himself in LWMJ that he had slept in the bed with children.

Bashir: Did you ever sleep in the bed with [Gavin and Star]?
Michael: No. But I have slept in a bed with many children. I'd sleep in a bed with all of them.

No matter how innocent it was that still doesn't make it appropriate in current western society.

I know we're not having this debate, but I didn't take Michael at his word here. Given that he prefaced it with denying that he slept in a bed with Gavin, to me it was him saying to his critics in 1993 and beyond, 'you don't control me, I do what I want because I know I'm not a criminal'. A word of defiance, I didn't change because of what you accused me of doing, kind of thing. I think that was definitely an aspect of Michael's personality. He didn't like his clothing, or actions or appearance being limited by society's hang ups.

 

[Anna]

I know we're not having this debate, but I didn't take Michael at his word here. Given that he prefaced it with denying that he slept in a bed with Gavin, to me it was him saying to his critics in 1993 and beyond, 'you don't control me, I do what I want because I know I'm not a criminal'. A word of defiance, I didn't change because of what you accused me of doing, kind of thing. I think that was definitely an aspect of Michael's personality. He didn't like his clothing, or actions or appearance being limited by society's hang ups.

You can't describe protecting children from potential paedophiles as a "hang-up".

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Mj only let the shi$@/& and his family in his room along with cascio sharing the room to afford false protection because of his illness. Some of you talk as if every other random was in his room over the years

This subject has so done its course Talk about flogging a dead horse. mj paid for his innocence, naivity,stupidity (you pick) it ruined his life and led to his early death because bashir set him up. Is that not enough ? Or do we have to keep using it as a stick to beat a dead man.

 

[terrell]

Here is the thing when it comes to this issue, EVERYONE is correct in THEORY issue of bed sharing; HOWEVER, What Anna, Elusive moonwalker, etc are saying is the reality of society. Regardless if anyone agree with it or not, my stance on the issue is that does NOT give NO ONE right to LIE about abuse and falsely accuse anyone as these liars have done. Back on the issue itself, I wish MJ would have not been so trusting with STRANGERS (we all have to be careful even with certain family members let alone people who are not related to us). I understand MJ doing what he did because my grandmother did the same thing (she just was not rich and famous for someone to lie on her to try to make money). We live in an EVIL world and we all have to protect ourselves as much as we can from "trouble". I look at this situation just like I I look at guys who like to walk around with their pants hanging down, wearing hoodies, or women who like to wear clothes with everything hanging out. To me, those things are viewed inapporiate; however, it does not give no one the right to violate them or falsely accuse a guy of committing a crime all because someone think they look "suspicious" but it happens. Also, and lets keep it real, we have a double standard in society with it comes to this issue as well. MJ was man and black. If MJ was a woman and allowed kids in her room and on her bed, many people would not be as outrage like they are when it is a man. Also, MJ is black. Again, lets keep it REAL. People do not want to hear/see a MAN period letting kids in his room and when you add a black man being shown to let white kids or non black kids in his room, that is a double BIAS. Regardless if it is Fair or not, that is society. This is why haters keep throwing it up (even though MJ was innocent). This is why these LIARS are able to do what they are doing because they are preying on society bias and double standards on this issue. So again, I think everyone is correct; but the reality of it all, society on this issue can make your life difficult (worst is when you have $$$$ because people will scheme to find a way to try to get it) and MJ is proof of what can happen even when innocent.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

Mj only let the shi$@/& and his family in his room along with cascio sharing the room to afford false protection because of his illness. Some of you talk as if every other random was in his room over the years

This subject has so done its course Talk about flogging a dead horse. mj paid for his innocence, naivity,stupidity (you pick) it ruined his life and led to his early death because bashir set him up. Is that not enough ? Or do we have to keep using it as a stick to beat a dead man.

THANK YOU! I am also tired of the bull$#@*.

 

[ozemouze]

Mj only let the shi$@/& and his family in his room along with cascio sharing the room to afford false protection because of his illness. Some of you talk as if every other random was in his room over the years

This subject has so done its course Talk about flogging a dead horse. mj paid for his innocence, naivity,stupidity (you pick) it ruined his life and led to his early death because bashir set him up. Is that not enough ? Or do we have to keep using it as a stick to beat a dead man.

Thank you for this.

It's a bit disheartening that even we fans can't miss an opportunity to harshly criticize MJ over and over for the same things he already paid an unproportionally high price for - all in the name of righteousness and objectivity.

Yes, he wasn't perfect and made mistakes - like any other human being. He wasn't treated as such though, and this circumstance contributed to the tragic course of events much more than MJ's naivety/stupidity/faults. Making mistakes doesn't justify a broken system allowing an overzealous prosecutor trying to hunt you down over and over, or court decisions robbing you from your right to a fair trial, or false accusers, extortionists, lying and vindictive media.

And no one should be treated as an abstract concept at best, and an object/caricature at worst.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Here is the thing when it comes to this issue, EVERYONE is correct in THEORY issue of bed sharing; HOWEVER, What Anna, Elusive moonwalker, etc are saying is the reality of society. Regardless if anyone agree with it or not, my stance on the issue is that does NOT give NO ONE right to LIE about abuse and falsely accuse anyone as these liars have done. Back on the issue itself, I wish MJ would have not been so trusting with STRANGERS (we all have to be careful even with certain family members let alone people who are not related to us). I understand MJ doing what he did because my grandmother did the same thing (she just was not rich and famous for someone to lie on her to try to make money). We live in an EVIL world and we all have to protect ourselves as much as we can from "trouble". I look at this situation just like I I look at guys who like to walk around with their pants hanging down, wearing hoodies, or women who like to wear clothes with everything hanging out. To me, those things are viewed inapporiate; however, it does not give no one the right to violate them or falsely accuse a guy of committing a crime all because someone think they look "suspicious" but it happens. Also, and lets keep it real, we have a double standard in society with it comes to this issue as well. MJ was man and black. If MJ was a woman and allowed kids in her room and on her bed, many people would not be as outrage like they are when it is a man. Also, MJ is black. Again, lets keep it REAL. People do not want to hear/see a MAN period letting kids in his room and when you add a black man being shown to let white kids or non black kids in his room, that is a double BIAS. Regardless if it is Fair or not, that is society. This is why haters keep throwing it up (even though MJ was innocent). This is why these LIARS are able to do what they are doing because they are preying on society bias and double standards on this issue. So again, I think everyone is correct; but the reality of it all, society on this issue can make your life difficult (worst is when you have $$$$ because people will scheme to find a way to try to get it) and MJ is proof of what can happen even when innocent.

I agree. we live in a mess up world. what may seem innocent to some may seem bad to others. Michael was too pure and should of been careful who he hung out with.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

Thank you for this.

It's a bit disheartening that even we fans can't miss an opportunity to harshly criticize MJ over and over for the same things he already paid an unproportionally high price for - all in the name of righteousness and objectivity.

Yes, he wasn't perfect and made mistakes - like any other human being. He wasn't treated as such though, and this circumstance contributed to the tragic course of events much more than MJ's naivety/stupidity/faults. Making mistakes doesn't justify a broken system allowing an overzealous prosecutor trying to hunt you down over and over, or court decisions robbing you from your right to a fair trial, or false accusers, extortionists, lying and vindictive media.

And no one should be treated as an abstract concept at best, and an object/caricature at worst.

I agree. Seriously, I am so sick of these self-righteous fans who ALWAYS have to throw in a dig at Michael or stab him in the back in a so- called “objective “ way. What really pisses me off it’s the same fans who come up with this so-called objective BS, just for the sole reason of throwing a subtle “dagger” in Michael’s back. Fans are not stupid or naive, we see what those so-called “ objective” fans are doing. I say WTF at a fan or fans who ALWAYS have a negative spin to anything concerning Michael and these fake accusations. It’s the little slyly worded innuendos that make me most angry. Damn, if a fan does that type of thing, then why should we care what haters say. Of course, these so-called “objective” fans will be the first ones to stand on their soap box and get angry
When he/she is called out. Hypocrisy at its worst.

 

[ChrisC]

You can't describe protecting children from potential paedophiles as a "hang-up".

I am speaking about this from Michael Jackson's perspective. Please understand that.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">After filming Leaving Neverland, Shane and Chantal Robson seek help from Scott Ross, the man who helped acquit their brothers' alleged abuser. Cos that's makes perfect sense right? &#65533;&#65533; <a href="https://t.co/kc8luI6GtS">pic.twitter.com/kc8luI6GtS</a></p>&#8212; Troy (@MrTroy_) <a href="https://twitter.com/MrTroy_/status/1277948526526263298?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 30, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm not sure if this Scott Ross interview was talked about here before. It's just a funny montage to highlight the contradictions (full video here, not just about the MJ case: https://youtu.be/N7cchBnulgQ), and some of the things he says were already known (he worked together with Shane Robson and considers him a friend).

What I've found interesting here is that they also worked together weeks before LN came out, but Shane didn't tell him anything about it. It's already strange to work with someone who you think is a complicit in a crime, but it's the "not saying anything about it" part is what caught my ear. Shane also knows it's a scam, and was ashamed about it when facing Ross? Why wouldn't he talk about it, moreover confront Ross if he believed Wade?

This is just another piece of the puzzle that shows there is ZERO credence to the fake accusations of these scam artists. However, you still have some ignorant haters who want to keep this $#@& going. Sadly there are even some so-called &#8220;fans&#8221; who try to throw underhanded doubt and darts at Michael. Their rational for throwing these darts at Michael is based on pure conjecture, what the @#$&*#$ public/society thinks and innuendo.

 

[Anna]

I agree. Seriously, I am so sick of these self-righteous fans who ALWAYS have to throw in a dig at Michael or stab him in the back in a so- called “objective “ way. What really pisses me off it’s the same fans who come up with this so-called objective BS, just for the sole reason of throwing a subtle “dagger” in Michael’s back. Fans are not stupid or naive, we see what those so-called “ objective” fans are doing. I say WTF at a fan or fans who ALWAYS have a negative spin to anything concerning Michael and these fake accusations. It’s the little slyly worded innuendos that make me most angry. Damn, if a fan does that type of thing, then why should we care what haters say. Of course, these so-called “objective” fans will be the first ones to stand on their soap box and get angry
When he/she is called out. Hypocrisy at its worst.

You're the only one here who's always standing on their soap box getting angry. Your posts are always so aggressive. Chill. Accepting the reality of society is not stabbing Michael in the back. Good lord.

 

[myosotis]

You may recall that LN has been nominated for more than one BAFTA.

BAFTA will be running a webinar with Reed and Cornell (Editor) as speakers (interested parties need to register online) :

Hear from the creative teams behind two of 2019&#8217;s most talked-about documentaries ('Creative teams' - they got that right! completely fabricated!!)

https://bafta.zoom.us/webinar/regis...AY8JiSXyJc22Lb8vj_w&timezone_id=Europe/London


21st July 2020 at 5.00 pm

 

[Lightbringer]

Is it not possible to confirm or deny whether Robson went along with family to the grand canyon in any way? Not just the court documents where Joy states that the whole family went there. Something more, some staff at Neverland maybe could remember if Wade was there 5 days with Jackson ALONE?