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Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:
I repoted that Rudi D. Created a very negative german MJ documentery many years ago.

https://youtu.be/m_py5yPw_Hc

Where he also showed his true coulors after MJs death.
Click to expand...

yup, i know. he also made other specials in the last 10 years. off course not for the MJ Estate.
in 2015 a Special called "Backstage" for Servus TV, incl. some short segments
and in 2017 "Ikonen der Popmusik" for Puls 4, 5 minutes long.



with some not so nice words for MJ. but not that bad like today.
in the Backstage Special he allready talks about the plastic nose. Recolor his skin, surgery. This Asshole.
 
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mjbunny;4254828 said:
I'm also trying to figure this out. All I know is everyone was saying JS said so in LN, but it's not true. My husband (who's also a fan) actually had the stomach to watch it back in mid-March and said he didn't remember hearing that claim, so he re-found the theater part for me and we watched it together. And... nope. It's never said in the film, or even implied. Weird.

So, where did this come from? I had read most of the lawsuit documents in the old thread as they came available, but that was now a long time ago and I don't remember every little detail. Could this one-way glass BS have possibly come from there? I would think someone would have screenshotted it and tweeted about that by now, though, so I don't think it's there either. Not 100% positive, though, but...?

All I can find otherwise are some TABLOID articles (The Sun, Mirror, perezhilton and copy-pasters) from late JANUARY to FEBRUARY of this year, around the Sundance premiere, that claim it was something said in the movie. (Example from The Sun: "Safechuck, who says he took part in a creepy mock wedding at the star's home, claims that Jackson sexually abused him in a private box in Neverland’s movie theatre which had a one-way glass so no one could see inside." ) Since we hadn't had a 'chance' to see the fakeumentary yet or to get a transcript, maybe everyone just assumed it was an actual claim by JS and it got repeated over and over? Or was it from an interview??? I really don't know, but would like to. Anyone else?
Click to expand...

Now that's interesting... maybe that's where it came from? But if so, then that means the tabloids (and perhaps the regular press as well) were spreading misinfo even before LN came out, and if they were doing that, then that makes this whole thing even more sinister. Not just because of how it's shitting on Michael, but because it inadvertently led fans into making claims that ended up being not true, which therefore makes them look bad even though the press were the ones that reported bad info in the first place. Very, very sneaky.

Sudden afterthought: is there any chance the movie got edited between Sundance and its TV debut? Like, maybe in the Sundance version he said the one-way mirror thing but then it got cut before it aired on TV.

Going back to LMP for a moment, it seems she's going through a divorce right now, and her soon-to-be ex's girlfriend has been hating on Michael. Hmm...
 
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James story sleeping on the same occasion in the u.s. with Brett and MJ where Brett would sleep in with MJ in his room and James should have slept on a couch in a other rom is specificlly datet in LN in Septemeber 1992.

This is impossibe cause MJ was on the Dangerous tour in Europe the compleate September in 1992.

Does this debunk the story?

Michael was far away from LA and Wade and James on the Dangerous Tour from June 27 til Dezember 31 1992

And from August 27 til November 11 1993

Where no abuse could have happened.

But these NAMBLA idiots try to tell abuse storys which should have happend in September 1992 and right after this date when this is impossible that they can have happened cause MJ and the accusers were definitly not in the same coutry!
 
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If you watch it, implies September time frame but does not say fornsure.. it just enters the time frame and tells stories
It would be not a factual statement for us to stand by that.. I had to take it out of my document specifically because it was being brought up to me, I checked and they were right.
 
A fan on Twitter speculates that what Aaron Carter means with "truths the family might not like" is that Katherine is a Jehova's Witness and she may not like hearing about MJ picking up girls.

Now I honestly don't know much about being a Jehova's Witness, but are they truly that against picking up a woman and only approve of the more proper ways? Because it truly could be as simple as that then. Still doesn't condone him dancing aroubd that abuse question though. But hey, books books books.
 
KOPV said:
If you watch it, implies September time frame but does not say fornsure.. it just enters the time frame and tells stories
It would be not a factual statement for us to stand by that.. I had to take it out of my document specifically because it was being brought up to me, I checked and they were right.
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But it is absolutly unlogical to use september 1992 when ABSOLUTLY NOTHING with MJ can have happened in the life of the accusers in this month or the months after.
James abuse would absolutly stop in June 1992 so there can not be told ANY storys that happen between MJ and James after June 1992.
This is a fact you should cover in your fact thread to Taj cause it can be used against LN.
The story with Brett can only happen before september 1992 not in september 1992 or after!
 
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Is IMDB accepting reviews? I wrote mine a month ago and it was never accepted on their site. Are the bastars only accepting positive reviews? Or have they blocked everything during certain times?
 
The example with the Brett story is anouther example that Reed didn't really research his script for LN.
When he would have researched it he would have not wrote Septemeber 1992 and tell the Brett story or invented the story with the train station.
 
ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona said:
But it is absolutly unlogical to use september 1992 when ABSOLUTLY NOTHING with MJ can have happened in the life of the accusers in this month or the months after.
James abuse would absolutly stop in June 1992 so there can not be told ANY storys that happen between MJ and James after June 1992.
This is a fact you should cover in your fact thread to Taj cause it can be used against LN.
The story with Brett can only happen before september 1992 not in september 1992 or after!
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Yes it is illogical,the documentary does not clearly say that happened in Sept. Though! It only implies it.. shows September, tells a story THAN goes into that story. They could easily say it happened Decemberor something.

Ok I'm boarding a plane.. lol! I am tryi g to mentally unplug and idk how to. Byeee.. for now
 
Can someone please give me the link to Mcs and Bretts testimony from 2005?

I want to know when MJ did befriended Brett Barnes and Mc.
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">UPDATE: The Estate of Michael Jackson v. HBO: The Estate will appear in court on 5/13/19. They have filed a motion to remand the case back to the state court. Thread. <a href="https://t.co/CEOwvncM0o">pic.twitter.com/CEOwvncM0o</a></p>&mdash; andjustice4some (@andjustice4some) <a href="https://twitter.com/andjustice4some/status/1116870888236785664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thank you! <a href="https://twitter.com/tajjackson3?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@tajjackson3</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/BJackson82?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BJackson82</a> <a href="https://t.co/hsNZTAhRrF">pic.twitter.com/hsNZTAhRrF</a></p>&mdash; &#120123;&#8477;&#120128;&#120120; &#127815; (@screamexhale) <a href="https://twitter.com/screamexhale/status/1116818309612281857?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">12. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">&#128591;&#127997; <a href="https://t.co/Z7IDdjaicB">https://t.co/Z7IDdjaicB</a></p>&mdash; Taj Jackson (@tajjackson3) <a href="https://twitter.com/tajjackson3/status/1116913743684702215?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">His life was my realization that the media are vicious liars. My realization that the public will choose a famous scapegoat to pin their trauma on. My realization that no good deed goes unpunished and that social capital is today’s most coveted commodity.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FactsDontLiePeopleDo?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FactsDontLiePeopleDo</a> <a href="https://t.co/UsOekLUQ7T">https://t.co/UsOekLUQ7T</a></p>&mdash; Ryan Michaels (@ReasonBound) <a href="https://twitter.com/ReasonBound/status/1116595576672403457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">12. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Retweeting for the beauty &#10084;&#65039; <a href="https://t.co/S6iYNJqle3">https://t.co/S6iYNJqle3</a></p>&mdash; Samar @TheMJAP (@TheMJAP) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheMJAP/status/1116825441795493888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">12. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here's my interview in full with <a href="https://twitter.com/CTVNews?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CTVNews</a> about the Leaving Neverland credibility issues <a href="https://t.co/dUhY9XCaPk">https://t.co/dUhY9XCaPk</a></p>&mdash; Mike Smallcombe (@mikesmallcombe1) <a href="https://twitter.com/mikesmallcombe1/status/1116873156009058305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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KOPV said:
Yes it is illogical,the documentary does not clearly say that happened in Sept. Though! It only implies it.. shows September, tells a story THAN goes into that story. They could easily say it happened Decemberor something.

Ok I'm boarding a plane.. lol! I am tryi g to mentally unplug and idk how to. Byeee.. for now
Click to expand...

Not really MJ perforemed til Dezember 31 at the Dangerous tour.
Then he came back to LA and it is the year 1993 and all abuse storys with James are over.

I want to know if MJ took Brett with him on the first or on the second leg from the Dangerous Tour.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Major Chinese fashion brand Semir released new collection of Michael Jackson T-shirts now! <a href="https://t.co/4CVA6p6b1Y">pic.twitter.com/4CVA6p6b1Y</a></p>&mdash; Keen Zhang (@mkgenie) <a href="https://twitter.com/mkgenie/status/1116895549716779008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Michael Jackson's Unfair Trial By Social Media <a href="https://t.co/jTLqtDEkxV">https://t.co/jTLqtDEkxV</a></p>&mdash; MJVibe (@Mjvibe) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mjvibe/status/1116988857470337024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LeavingNeverland?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LeavingNeverland</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FactsDontLiePeopleDo?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FactsDontLiePeopleDo</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJInnocent?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJInnocent</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Mjfam?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Mjfam</a> <a href="https://t.co/TdnfyOHwX5">pic.twitter.com/TdnfyOHwX5</a></p>&mdash; MJsupport (@BelgiumMJfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/BelgiumMJfan/status/1117045659046117377?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="de"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Love is all we are about. The love of great dance, pop and soul music from the 80s and early 90s. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJMonday?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJMonday</a> returns on Monday with a whole day of more MJ! In the meantime stick us on for your weekend soundtrack &#128588;&#127997;<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJInnocent?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJInnocent</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJ?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJ</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MichaelJackson?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MichaelJackson</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LeavingNeverland?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LeavingNeverland</a></p>&mdash; NEON Radio (@neonradio) <a href="https://twitter.com/neonradio/status/1117031455262220288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">13. April 2019</a></blockquote>
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mjchris said:
That was in 2003. Now he is talking the oposite.
He was director for at least Dangerous-Tour Munich 1992 Special (Live Special with Opening Concert) and Michael Jackson and friends Munich 1999. Mystery Drink Commercial. Maybe some Music Videos and Specials for Michael Jackson. Cant say at the moment what the other projects was.
I think he was director for some european Michael Jackson projects (TV, Videos, commercials in the 90s).

Here is what he is saying (video and audio):
https://www.krone.at/1898527
https://oe3.orf.at/stories/2974565/
https://tvthek.orf.at/profile/Studi...daBy6uYEGqQLwdI93thbIZ9xNhdcFzubCWAfb4szmJFko
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Thanks! Now I see what you mean! What a snake!!! These are the typical fake show biz people who will throw you under the bus and jump on the accusation bandwagon as soon as they can't benefit from you. It was very telling when he said that he took MJ out DURING the trial when people told him "How can you work with a child molester?". He didn't even wait for the verdict but convicted Michael just because the "popular" opinon in the media was that MJ was guilty. Even though he said HIMSELF that he NEVER saw anything bad and that Michael gave him access to all his PRIVATE footage from tours and mentions footahe from hotel rooms when some of the boys were there. He said there NEVER was anything sexual or bad going on. Yet, he still throws him under the bus. Just so HE won't get any criticism himself for standing up to MJ. They all just think about themselves. It's not about guilty or innocent to them, it's about what is the popular opinon. If he did a documentary about MJ after MJ died, when MJ was popular agan, shows how they had no problem making money by using Michael's name once again. They are all vile hypocrites. But...karma will get them....

ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona said:
Did you reconize how large James already was in the birthday footage?
He was nearly so tall as his mum and his mum is nearly so tall as Michael.

When was the black or white shoot?
Did it took place before the Robsons moved to LA or after?
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Don't know when the Black and White shoot was, but I found this info in the book from March-April 1990: The seven year old Wade Robson from the Australian Brisbane, flies (note...FLIES....not MOVES) with his parents to the USA to learn to sing and dance from Michael Jackson. His mother Joy says that Wade learned to dance from Michael's videos and says Michael is the perfect role model for Wade.


I haven't read every entry but from leafing through, I have found several mentions of Ryan White and Macauley Culkin, also Brett Barnes is mentioned...but have not found mentions about Safechuck and that was so far the only mention of Wade I could find. Brooke Shields is also mentioned several times having gone out with Michael. Also a mention about Miichael and Madonna having gone out severa times in March-April 1991. I mainly leafed through 1987-1992.
 
I just bought my Bad album cover from H&M in Istanbul, Turkey! It's good to see that H&M Turkey isn't affected by the mockumentary. They sell other MJ t-shirts as well. Also, when I was clubbing they were playing a tribute song in the club for MJ. Turkey still loves Michael
 
summer said:
Thanks! Now I see what you mean! What a snake!!! These are the typical fake show biz people who will throw you under the bus and jump on the accusation bandwagon as soon as they can't benefit from you. It was very telling when he said that he took MJ out DURING the trial when people told him "How can you work with a child molester?". He didn't even wait for the verdict but convicted Michael just because the "popular" opinon in the media was that MJ was guilty. Even though he said HIMSELF that he NEVER saw anything bad and that Michael gave him access to all his PRIVATE footage from tours and mentions footahe from hotel rooms when some of the boys were there. He said there NEVER was anything sexual or bad going on. Yet, he still throws him under the bus. Just so HE won't get any criticism himself for standing up to MJ. They all just think about themselves. It's not about guilty or innocent to them, it's about what is the popular opinon. If he did a documentary about MJ after MJ died, when MJ was popular agan, shows how they had no problem making money by using Michael's name once again. They are all vile hypocrites. But...karma will get them....

Don't know when the Black and White shoot was, but I found this info in the book from March-April 1990: The seven year old Wade Robson from the Australian Brisbane, flies (note...FLIES....not MOVES) with his parents to the USA to learn to sing and dance from Michael Jackson. His mother Joy says that Wade learned to dance from Michael's videos and says Michael is the perfect role model for Wade.


I haven't read every entry but from leafing through, I have found several mentions of Ryan White and Macauley Culkin, also Brett Barnes is mentioned...but have not found mentions about Safechuck and that was so far the only mention of Wade I could find. Brooke Shields is also mentioned several times having gone out with Michael. Also a mention about Miichael and Madonna having gone out severa times in March-April 1991. I mainly leafed through 1987-1992.
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Was Kathrine with Michael in Rotterdam, Paris and Germany on the badtour?

That the black or white video was shoot in 1990 fits to the footage of Michael and Mc in 1990 from the home videos.
So he befriended Mc at the same time as he befrinded Wade and spend also much time with him in 1990.

The Replace story does upsolutlly not fit when they filmed Black or whide already in March 1990.

Wade by the way constantly mentioned the wrong year with 1989 in his 2005 testimony this happend also in two interviews.
In the beach interview and in the rare Thriller special in 2008 I guess.

That he mentioned the wrong year speakes against a coching from Michael or his loyars.

When there would have been a couching from Michael, I would expected that he would tell Wade not to say that he slept in the same bed with him.

Right?
 
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mjchris said:
yup, i know. he also made other specials in the last 10 years. off course not for the MJ Estate.
in 2015 a Special called "Backstage" for Servus TV, incl. some short segments
and in 2017 "Ikonen der Popmusik" for Puls 4, 5 minutes long.



with some not so nice words for MJ. but not that bad like today.
in the Backstage Special he allready talks about the plastic nose. Recolor his skin, surgery. This Asshole.
Click to expand...
He looks like a sneeky fool.
 
A big problem is that Wade said very simular things in 2005 about the sleepovers with Michael in his room and bed togther with him on all the occasions he mentioned also later.
The only diffrence is that he said that nothing sexual ever happened between them.

So when we say Wade told the (full) trouth in 2005 it is clear that it semes not possibe to proove that the sleepovers with MJ together in a room and sometimes in one bed didn't happen in this occasions cause they did!

When something of what Wade said in 2005 about the sleepovers with MJ was untrue MJ would have to go on the stand answering the same questions and say what was untrue.
But this didn't happen.

MJ put himself in a very bad position with letting all this happen all the time.
 
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somewhereinthedark said:
Just wondering. Is there some significance to knowing when Michael befriended Brett and MAC? Am I missing something all these years?
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Seems their whole narrative is that they got "replaced" by either Brett or Macauley from what I understand. But I haven't even thought about that angle before. Good catch! MJ was definitely spending more time with Macauley in 1991 than the others. MJ went on vacation with Macauley and his family in June 1991 and in August 1991 he celebrated his bday at Neverland and it says his parents were also there. I need to look again to find when they mentiond Brett.

I just found one mention of Jimmy from July 18th, 1988. It says MJ went sightseeing with Jimmy and they visited the Elstree Studios where Steven Spielberg was filming Indiana Jones. It mentions them meeting Harrison Ford.
 
summer said:
Seems their whole narrative is that they got "replaced" by either Brett or Macauley from what I understand. But I haven't even thought about that angle before. Good catch! MJ was definitely spending more time with Macauley in 1991 than the others. MJ went on vacation with Macauley and his family in June 1991 and in August 1991 he celebrated his bday at Neverland and it says his parents were also there. I need to look again to find when they mentiond Brett.

I just found one mention of Jimmy from July 18th, 1988. It says MJ went sightseeing with Jimmy and they visited the Elstree Studios where Steven Spielberg was filming Indiana Jones. It mentions them meeting Harrison Ford.
Click to expand...

Ok this is also in LN and James complaint.

MJ spend much time with Mac already in 1990 prooven trough the Michael Jackson Home Videos.
 
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Wade really said in 2005 that he never was in Neverland without his mother exept from once when he was together with Jordan and Mac there.

He said that he only spend one night togther with Jordan MJ and Mac in his bedroom suite.
 
ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona said:
Not really MJ perforemed til Dezember 31 at the Dangerous tour.
Then he came back to LA and it is the year 1993 and all abuse storys with James are over.

I want to know if MJ took Brett with him on the first or on the second leg from the Dangerous Tour.
Click to expand...

Well Michael returned back to US in beginning of October 1992 and stayed there until beginning of December 1992 for the Japan leg of Dangerous Tour. Brett was with him during the first leg of tour in 1992.

Here Michael is leaving Istanbul on October 4/5th 1992 after he cancelled his performance on 4th just 5 hours before the concert start due to vocal cord strains. You can also see Brett with him in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0UMdum7kPI

I know I have read somewhere he had to be admitted to hospital in US and the doctors had to perform surgery on his vocal cord which where strained from all the live vocal performance during the 3 month tour in Europe.

Here is Brett Strong telling about he arranged a meeting between Michael and Lisa Marie Presley and all of them three together with Strongs son met at Strongs home in November 1992. Which city not clear but US definitely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqzzY1ObE5c

And here is the press conference Michael held for donating money to the people in Sarajevo through the Americare Foundation, November 24th 1992. But this was in New York at the JFK airport:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHDGQNT5vz8
 
Hm its tragic that we can not debunk James story in September 1992 or right after this date as not taken place then.

Mj should have decided to move to Africa in the 90ies and to stay there for ever.

The estate should really try to get acess to the testimonys of the Safechucks and the Robsons in 1993/ 94 and make them public.
 
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ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona said:
Was Kathrine with Michael in Rotterdam, Paris and Germany on the badtour?
Click to expand...
She was in at least one of the concerts. And Janet was also there too with her. It can be seen in this clip from Private Home Movies starting at 26:04:

It is during the European Tour for sure. Because you can see in the stage those stairs in the background behind Michael and the dancers. The US tour did have different stage, with no stairs but rather ramps that surrounded the musicians. Which date is unsure but I have heard it's from the concert in Hannover, Germany September 2th 1988.
 
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