Communicating with people hostile to MJ

[*~Tink~*]

My favorite era for Michael is This Is It. I'm just sayin... for me... when he's singing TDCAU... and he gets that little smile on his face, like a smirk almost... before the dancers break away? And when they are working through the dancing for Bad... in the black jacket? :wub: And the SMILE at the very end of Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)... that is the sweestest smile... aside from the one in TDCAU, lol... his expressions when he is in the Jackson Five segment and talking about his earpiece...

I can go on and on... :wub:


Favorite era ever ever ever...

 

[xo_lola_xo]

I'm regret you're offended, and am happy for you that you've not encountered this. However, many others have. I posted this at the recommendation of other members here who found this resonated with their own experiences.

Perhaps it's different where you are. In the US this is the conventional perception in mainstream media and among most people I know. Barely a news article is written about him, including TII reviews, that does not make an unflattering reference to his skin color and plastic surgery. (And no, I'm not speaking of tabloids). I'm sorry to be the bearer of what is apparently startling news to some of you...

Here is where this discussion began:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2348519#post2348519

But why do we have to defend his face?

Educating people about Vitiligo is one thing but why defend his features, plastic surgery etc. like there is something wrong with Mike?

You can have the most beautiful face ever but there will still be people who dislike it, it's just opinions.

I say this and I wish I said it when he was alive but -

Dear Michael Jackson,
I love you more than they hate you.

 

[marialovesmjj]

This certainly doesn't mean that I'm judging MJ for being so insecure about his appearance. I'm simply saying that the problem existed, and it's sad. Fans who give the impression that everything was hunky dory and awesome pertaining to Michael Jackson's face instantly come off as idol worshippers and often aren't taken very seriously by people who may very well have taken their point of view seriously if it was conveyed more sensibly. Again, the point isn't calling Michael Jackson ugly. I myself found his appearance to be enigmatic and part of his superstar quality, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any problem going on there. There obviously was. If there wasn't, then he wouldn't have had those phone conversations about how much he hates the way he looks, which I unfortunately heard a part of on TV.

Instead of how Bo G put it if your going to go the face route something like, "It's his face so it doesn't matter to me but if there were negative events that happened to him to cause him then surgery in the first place that's unfortunate. Not the fact that he changed it." or something.

*shrug*

But we really shouldn't have to bring up his face or anything like that at all. Plenty of other people get work done for whatever reason and hardly anyone says anything about them.

 

[Arklove]

I disagree... I dont know why but the 2000s Michael was most beautiful to me :wub:

I can totally agree with you here...He was beautiful AND sexy! I really actually liked his hair during this era, not when it was flipped at the bottom, but when it was more bed-headish, I guess you could say...When he wore all black suits and awesome shoes/boots, and sunglasses....All I can say is SEXY BADASS!

http://mjjgallery.free.fr/20062008/appearances/jesse/064.jpg

http://mjjgallery.free.fr/20062008/awards/wma/redcarpet/094.jpg

These are some of my favourite looks from this era, more 2006-2008...Sorry I can't post the pictures directly...I don't know how to do it...

 

[Krshna28]

Its usually ugly people who complain about Michael's face............

And It's usually people who attempt to get darker skin by getting a tan who complain about Michael's skin.

People who are bad parents complain about Michael relationships with children.

-> People who can't sing complain about Michael's singing.
--> People who can't dance complain about his dancing.
--->
---->
----->


My list could go on forever, but you get the drift!

 

[mjjfan4ever]

Fans who give the impression that everything was hunky dory and awesome pertaining to Michael Jackson's face instantly come off as idol worshippers and often aren't taken very seriously by people who may very well have taken their point of view seriously if it was conveyed more sensibly.

Your assumption that because some FANS aren't jumping for joy discussing and pointing out Michael's failures or short comings "makes some fans idol worshippers" is nonsense.

You want to call me an "idol worshipper" because I disagree with the notion that "its unfortunate what happened to Michael's face" go right ahead. I would wear that with pride and honor.

If anyone wants to label me "IDOL WORSHIPPER" because I use empathy to not rush to judgement on any issue? COOL!! Go right ahead.

Michael is /was not perfect. But you will find me casting the stone or noticing a speck in his eyes when I have a log in mine.

What I have learned from some MJ fans is that they are some of the most sweet, gentle, kind and uncritical people. Maybe that is what stops some FANS from not noticing or pointing out or feeling the need to talk about his flaws. Maybe if less people in the world needed or wanted to focus on the less important things than the world would be a better place.

Speaking to and with the general public about all that Michael had to endured is something that we all should do. Certainly educating the public about Michael's battle with Vitiligo is something productive.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

but why do we have to defend his face?

Educating people about vitiligo is one thing but why defend his features, plastic surgery etc. Like there is something wrong with mike?

You can have the most beautiful face ever but there will still be people who dislike it, it's just opinions.

I say this and i wish i said it when he was alive but -

dear michael jackson,
i love you more than they hate you.

speak the truth!!!!

 

[Krshna28]

But why do we have to defend his face?

Educating people about Vitiligo is one thing but why defend his features, plastic surgery etc. like there is something wrong with Mike?

You can have the most beautiful face ever but there will still be people who dislike it, it's just opinions.

I say this and I wish I said it when he was alive but -

Dear Michael Jackson,
I love you more than they hate you.

Exactly, Michael's job was to sing and dance, not to be a supermodel!

 

[mjjfan4ever]

Bo~

I am airing on the side that you mean well and have good intentions.

I wanted to argue point by point but I think what I have to say in defense of Michael would offend some people and I just don't want to add anymore negativity on this great board.

I will just say this.....

I am sensitive only to what Michael had to suffer and endured and care less about anyone that didn't walk in his shoes for 5 seconds.

So trying to make excuses or trying to coax or make arguments for people come around and love Michael as we do is ..... whatever!

Whatever is said about the surgery , we all know its more plausible that the surgery was about being teased and told YOU ARE UGLY than any other artistic expression.

IMHO!

Beauty is indeed very subjective. I have many posts here and elsewhere where I rail about "looks-ism." I agree with you that one should never feel the need to "defend" someone's looks. I think the distinction here is someone's "natural" looks, which none of us can help, so judging someone this way is cruel, even bigoted.

But MJ is a very, very different matter. Lisa Marie in the Diane Sawyer interview, "defended" MJ's face as he nodded suppportively beside her. I don't have time to get the exact quote, but it's easily findable on YouTube. She says something to the effect that MJ thinks of his face and body as a canvas, a medium for his artistry and creativity. Either MJ or someone quoting MJ repeats this again on another occasion; sorry I don't have that link right now.

MJ put his art out there to be critiqued. He reshaped, recolored and tattooed his face as part of his art. People can, I think, be forgiven for therefore critiquing this aspect of his art. To be mad when they do is just not being realistic.

Yes, it's my impression that the majority of the public found this "artwork" too unnatural. I do stand by this based on the vast amount of discussion in the world and online about this, but I admit I have no quantitative polls to point to that summarize this conclusively. Others are welcome to disagree.

Others found it beautiful. But it was a kind of sculpture that people are entitled to different opinions on. So I don't think we judge people harshly for this.

But really, the crux of my "defense" of his face was the explanation of vitiligo -- many people simply need to be educated about this disease. It's also an opportunity to remind people that scars can cause reconstructive work that should not lend itself to "looks-ism." I can be a "teachable moment" to spread tolerance.

I don't think we should be harsh with those in the African-American community who for a long time were upset with Michael, who had yet to speak openly about his condition, for seemingly wanting to appear more Caucasian. The evidence DID seem to point that way. Michael should have said something sooner, but was too shy. When he did, and expressed great pride in being black, the AA community rallied around him. But the word still didn't get out to everyone, so I repeat that we shouldn't be too harsh on them; just educate them. It's a sensitive subject.

I'm not saying anyone needs to do anything in my post. It's just my thoughts for those of us who are so inclined.

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[mjjfan4ever]

:clapping::clapping:

Its usually ugly people who complain about Michael's face............

And It's usually people who attempt to get darker skin by getting a tan who complain about Michael's skin.

People who are bad parents complain about Michael relationships with children.

-> People who can't sing complain about Michael's singing.
--> People who can't dance complain about his dancing.
--->
---->
----->


My list could go on forever, but you get the drift!

 

[mjjfan4ever]

edit:

 

[Petals]

Never. friggin. mind. I've deleted the post, so all can relax.

This post CLEARLY said it was a discussion of responses when OTHER people raise the issue of MJ's appearance or the allegations, and you WANT to respond to correct tabloid-driven misperceptions. It did NOT say anyone HAD to bring ANYTHING up or defend ANYTHING that you don't wish to discuss.

Commenters who didn't really read my post have twisted it into something beyond recognition.

Instead of folks writing, "Well, I've found that responding with X or Y is helpful..." I was attacked as if I ORIGINATED these ideas!

I really despair of trying to discuss anything calmly and sensibly here.

(A link to the post, where it's buried under a different topic, remains downthread if anyone's curious).

ouch! I'm very sorry! -_-

bold part: me too! -_-

 

[Grand Master S]

Your assumption that because some FANS aren't jumping for joy discussing and pointing out Michael's failures or short comings "makes some fans idol worshippers" is nonsense.

You want to call me an "idol worshipper" because I disagree with the notion that "its unfortunate what happened to Michael's face" go right ahead. I would wear that with pride and honor.

If anyone wants to label me "IDOL WORSHIPPER" because I use empathy to not rush to judgement on any issue? COOL!! Go right ahead.

Michael is /was not perfect. But you will find me casting the stone or noticing a speck in his eyes when I have a log in mine.

What I have learned from some MJ fans is that they are some of the most sweet, gentle, kind and uncritical people. Maybe that is what stops some FANS from not noticing or pointing out or feeling the need to talk about his flaws. Maybe if less people in the world needed or wanted to focus on the less important things than the world would be a better place.

Speaking to and with the general public about all that Michael had to endured is something that we all should do. Certainly educating the public about Michael's battle with Vitiligo is something productive.

LOL, I don't think you even know what you're arguing against right now since your post is presumably opposing mine. The righteous attitude in the post did make me laugh though, so kudos.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

LOL, I don't think you even know what you're arguing against right now since your post is presumably opposing mine. The righteous attitude in the post did make me laugh though, so kudos.

actually.. i do know what i am opposing.

we just disagree. you can laugh it off. its ok.

righteous? are the people that sit there is say.... if you don't agree with this and that ... than clearly you are an "idol worshipper" who lives in a cloud of smoke.

carry on!

 

[mjjfan4ever]

I really despair of trying to discuss anything calmly and sensibly here.

I am sorry I added to this. Really I am. :hug:

You and I just disagree on one issue.

But I hope I have disagreed with you in a respectful manner, if I didn't or if you feel like I wasn't PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY.:better:

 

[Grand Master S]

actually.. i do know what i am opposing.

Oh, okay. So you're arguing against the notion that it's unfortunate that Michael Jackson had vitiligo and that he was insecure about the way he looked to an unhealthy degree. Gotcha.

You certainly couldn't be arguing against me saying that he was bad looking, since I not only didn't say that but specifically pointed out that I wasn't saying that to dissuage passionate yet illogical reactions like yours.

And you won't need to be the one to bring up Michael's face if you converse with enough people about him. It'll be brought up by the other party enough times.

But, you know, good job sticking up for Michael against mean old me. *thumbs up*

 

[marialovesmjj]

Never. friggin. mind. I've deleted the post, so all can relax.

This post CLEARLY said it was a discussion of responses when OTHER people raise the issue of MJ's appearance or the allegations, and you WANT to respond to correct tabloid-driven misperceptions. It did NOT say anyone HAD to bring ANYTHING up or defend ANYTHING that you don't wish to discuss.

Commenters who didn't really read my post have twisted it into something beyond recognition.

Instead of folks writing, "Well, I've found that responding with X or Y is helpful..." I was attacked as if I ORIGINATED these ideas!

I really despair of trying to discuss anything calmly and sensibly here.

(A link to the post, where it's buried under a different topic, remains downthread if anyone's curious).

Well that...

I thought this whole topic is an important one... it's good to see how people respond to these kind of things, and how the fans respond to that.

Maybe we can have this discussion again later? I think this topic is a good one also because in some way it can help some people fight against non fans.

I believe this discussion can be handled in a calm rational, respectful manner.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

Clearly, I have touched a nerve.

You made a general statement towards fans using the term "idol worshipper" ....

I disagreed with that and quoted you and shared my opinion.

I didn't or wasn't trying to get you all upset.

Really... if my rant came across righteous.... I AM SORRY, it was not my intent.

Of course people are going to bring up mike's face, and we can all discuss and share our point of view.

I agree that it is "unfortunate" that Mike suffered from Vitiligo just as much as he suffered from Lupus......

I didn't say you said he was bad looking.

I actually agreed with the other stuff you wrote in your original post.... thats why i left it out.

Look I am sorry if I offended you.

I have tried very hard to be respectful.

Oh, okay. So you're arguing against the notion that it's unfortunate that Michael Jackson had vitiligo and that he was insecure about the way he looked to an unhealthy degree. Gotcha.

You certainly couldn't be arguing against me saying that he was bad looking, since I not only didn't say that but specifically pointed out that I wasn't saying that to dissuage passionate yet illogical reactions like yours.

And you won't need to be the one to bring up Michael's face if you converse with enough people about him. It'll be brought up by the other party enough times.

But, you know, good job sticking up for Michael against mean old me. *thumbs up*

 

[Grand Master S]

Never. friggin. mind. I've deleted the post, so all can relax.

This post CLEARLY said it was a discussion of responses when OTHER people raise the issue of MJ's appearance or the allegations, and you WANT to respond to correct tabloid-driven misperceptions. It did NOT say anyone HAD to bring ANYTHING up or defend ANYTHING that you don't wish to discuss.

Commenters who didn't really read my post have twisted it into something beyond recognition.

Instead of folks writing, "Well, I've found that responding with X or Y is helpful..." I was attacked as if I ORIGINATED these ideas!

I really despair of trying to discuss anything calmly and sensibly here.

(A link to the post, where it's buried under a different topic, remains downthread if anyone's curious).

Dude, you're not going to last long if you take it to heart every time you're hit with over sensitivity/defensiveness from other posters, lol. You have to be prepared for the inevitable sparkly assault of girlishness if you even plan on approaching the subjects you approached here.

I feel you, though.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

Well that...

I thought this whole topic is an important one... it's good to see how people respond to these kind of things, and how the fans respond to that.

Maybe we can have this discussion again later? I think this topic is a good one also because in some way it can help some people fight against non fans.

I believe this discussion can be handled in a calm rational, respectful manner.

I completely agree. Bo and I may disagree on one issue or term or whatever....

but the topics are worth discussing and disagreeing so long as we try to be respectful.

BO PLEASE DON'T BE DISCOURAGED.:better:

 

[Grand Master S]

Clearly, I have touched a nerve.

It really confuses me when people say this after they were the ones who originally wrote a long detailed enthused rebuttal to my post. I could have just as easily responded to your first reply with "ooh I touched a nerve."

You made a general statement towards fans using the term "idol worshipper" ....

This entire thread is about how to argue your case in civil conversation against people criticizing MJ, if one is actually interested in doing that. Some fans don't care and don't want to bother explaining themselves to anybody, which is also fine. Sometimes I'm like that and sometimes I want to prove the other person wrong. It depends on my mood.

But yes, when the subject of MJ's appearance comes up, you WILL come off as a fanatic not to be taken seriously in a debate if you don't acknowledge certain things, and rightfully so.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

But yes, when the subject of MJ's appearance comes up, you WILL come off as a fanatic not to be taken seriously in a debate if you don't acknowledge certain things, and rightfully so.

I agree with what BO had brought up, he/she had some great points.

As well, I agree with somethings you had to say on your original post.

But I did take the "idol worship" thing a little hard.

And I UNDERSTAND (not yelling) the point that both you and BO makes about making sensible, non emotional (no matter how difficult it is), logical points and arguments.

I thought the exchange between Bo and I were quite respectful.

As far as to my long rant to your post, I AM JUST LONG WINDED!!! :lmao:

I think we all have more in agreement than disagreement.

But i do have to say.... that your subsequent posts were more confrontational and a little disrespectful TO ME.

But ..... I do like this exchange we have going. So long as we keep is respectful.

BACK ON TOPIC though.

Somethings are so hard to discuss or defend. I am sure we all agree beauty is subjective. Or doesn't even need defending.

anyways..... i am also a little distracted while watching Pac Man vs Cotto (undercard fights).... :lmao: so no offense to anyone.

 

[Grand Master S]

As far as to my long rant to your post, I AM JUST LONG WINDED!!! :lmao:

...

But i do have to say.... that your subsequent posts were more confrontational and a little disrespectful TO ME.

Well, I'm naturally sarcastic and snarky, so I guess we all gotta deal with each other's personalities, lol.

 

[lovelymj]

I can't deal with people being hostile to MJ, guess I have a temper....

 

[Bo G]

I really appreciate some of the positive thoughts directed my way... thanks.

An important part of resilience is knowing when to choose carefully where to direct one's limited time and energy. Continuing to beat one's head against a brick wall is not resilience, but mindless doggedness. So I'm largely withdrawing from MJJC to find more positive ways elsewhere to direct my energy. Of course I don't want to leave behind a post so upsetting to members (this is just mind-boggling, but whatever).

I'd request this reasonable little decision on my part is not next twisted into making me into some kind of a quitter, for heaven's sake. MJJC is simply not where I should be using time to share ideas, only to keep up with basic news.

 

[FedoraHatGirl2058]

some people want him to be guilty no matter what, they will keep on and on, they have dirty heads and they want him to be guilty, i wouldnt waste my time explaning anything to that kind of people, they are the ones obsessed in all that and to be obsessed on that matter its not good, i mean, are they all day thinking about it???:bugeyed, disgusting!uke: its their dirty imagination, bad imagination, ugh... DONT WASTE YOUR TIME ON THEM, they might try to hurt you, ugh..

 

[SoS]

What I do ... hm...it rarely comes up for me, but when it did, mostly during the trial, I just let them know something they didn't already know. As for his face, I agree with whomever said, 'its his face' and that's exactly what I would tell people, and I find it easy to see the old MJ in his face, so I always see his face 'before' the changes.

The number 1 thing I always try to get people to realize, no matter what they're saying about MJ is that MJ is them. They are exactly the same as him, and I feel its pretty damn arrogant of people to presume otherwise.

He just lives his in a fishbowl and they don't. I ask them if they've ever thought of getting any changes to their face - someone honest says, 'well yes, but '...and before they can follow that 'but' with something prejudiced, I'll say, 'ok and you didn't because you didn't have the money and Michael did okay end of story', I'll ask them, 'so have you ever wanted to share your child with people who wanted to see your child? and they say, yes, but .. and before they can finish that 'but' I'll say, 'and so did Michael Jackson and since he had to hold the child up for thousands to see instead of the three people YOU had to worry about, that makes his situation different and that is the ONLY thing that makes it different, and I'll ask them, 'don't you have your favorite way of rejuvinating your spirit, restoring your soul?' and they'll say something like, 'yes I go to the park but' ... and before they can finish I go, "woah, ok so you go to the park, Michael invites zillions of little angels to his fairytale home, what's the difference'...and on and on I could go. The only thing that really upsets me is when people dare to presume that Michael is somehow different from them, or inferior in some way just because "bashing" of anyone is the quick fix for so many peoples' self esteem issues and ego trips. I don't let them get away with that because its a lie from hell. They are telling themselves a lie imho if they feel they do not share the exact same humanity as Michael Jackson.

What people don't realize is that Michael Jackson is the "poster child" for every single human beings' experience cloaked in different robes...and I feel the sooner people realize that, the sooner they'll realize he's no different than anyone else...I just wish he could have realized that too so he wouldn't have felt so different. He was really no different than anybody else, but the world allowed him to feel so, and to me, that is the saddest thing of all, because its wrong, its a lie, its just not the truth. Michael is the one who always tried to get people to see that we're all one. For the world not to realize that he was all 1 with everyone too, that is such a travesty to me.

 

[zizousama]

I think defending MJ is easy. I was never overwhelmed by an MJ hater. I either convince them or shut them up. It has nothing to do with me being smart or anything. It is simply that truth is overwhelming. People who hate MJ simply didn't educate themselves on him. I swear that looking at two or three clips of him shows clearly how kind and great he is. It is just that these people didn't bother looking. If I tell someone "he gave +350m to charity, they say so what?! He's loaded and can afford it." How about Michael giving his time to others? How can he make up for it? Money, he can make money, but can he make time? This is a sign of true love and compassion. Fakers wouldn't give their time to others. My point is, truth crushes lies with ease.

 

[FedoraHatGirl2058]

i wouldnt waste my time on them seriously, i just think they are energy vampires, who needs them???, dont even waste your prescious time, go, write a song, read a book, sing a song, go to the movies, see friends, why waste on stupidity???, they are trying to neglect a great talent like Michael cause they believe whatever they WANT TO, its them and their creepy heads, i mean i have tried in the past explaining stuff, but i realize this was all meant to make Michaels music on a side, and what i most love about him of course is his music, his talent, why keep on on negative unproven false cases that were meant, created to destroy him, its not fair to him, that should be a crime, dont even answer them, yes im tired but im more tired of supporters who try to explain to peopl who are only trying to either hurt you or Michael, its stupid, i mean if they are worth is one thing, but if they arent then WHY???? im sensible cause today a read a book called the power of accusation, i mean, stop!, by discussing these false stuff again and again they are keeping them alive and they are FALSE!, and its not fair!, i mean WHO CARES WHAT THESE IGNORANTS SQUARE HEADS THINK???? IM SUSPECTING THEY JUST WANT TO BOTHER US, no i take that back im confirming it

 

[Bo G]

Those of you harshly judging and namecalling people who don't happen to share your affection for your favorite musical artist are on a path to social isolation, if you haven't gotten there already.

No, I am NOT going to abandon my friends and family and consider them "energy vampires" or whatever simply because they don't like Michael Jackson, for God's sake. That's insanity -- no one should -- that's mentally and emotionally unhealthy. You simply change the subject. This is called maturity.

I am more than an MJ fan, much much more, and I"m capable of relationships that are based on ties other than my admiration for one singer. I don't appreciate being lectured to abandon my loved ones! I think this is where a line is crossed and persons feeling this way should consider whether they've become too obsessed and should re-enter the bigger world. Seriously, folks!