Atheist thread

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Empyrean Dancer]

Hello everyone. Just saw this thread and had to chime in. I'm also an atheist. My family was never really religious, but still believes in a god. So I was raised chatholic. I can't pinpoint exactly when, but sometime around my late teen years, I just stopped believing. There is just no evidence for deities. So I've been an atheist for about 20 years or so.

 

[Michaels Lover]

Hello everyone. Just saw this thread and had to chime in. I'm also an atheist. My family was never really religious, but still believes in a god. So I was raised chatholic. I can't pinpoint exactly when, but sometime around my late teen years, I just stopped believing. There is just no evidence for deities. So I've been an atheist for about 20 years or so.

I've been an atheist my whole life. Never believed in god, even as a kid the stories I read from the bible was too much of a fairy tale to me

I also tried praying once (as a kid) just to see what it was like, and even then I just felt like I was talking to myself

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Hot_Street]

religion is just another drug, that I don't care for

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Hot_Street]

Religion is the opium of the people.

Opium of the people - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[MJImpeccable]

If religion and god is actually non existent, it would be the biggest and most insane scam ever. Billions of people fell for it and dedicated there life 100% believing in something that someone wrote which is utter nonsense.

And if god is real, it would mean billions of people dedicated their to possibly the 'wrong' religion cause one religion would be closest to the truth.

For me those thoughts are funny and sad at the same time.

I am raised atheist, tho rest of my family is catholic, I do think there is more to life and the universe, I dont know if a god is the answer.

 

[Michaels Lover]

 

[Maxym]

Hi everyone.

I was just checking some random Jackson lyrics that I didn't get straight away (English is not my main language).

And I came to wonder: how do you people cope with the religious/God-related aspects in MJ's discography?

Without giving my own full answer right away, here is an example of things I don't appreciate being told (be it by a person or a song)

Don't take the easy way out
Believe there is a Maker
Don't be a body of doubt
In whom does live a faker

Source: https://genius.com/The-jackson-5-reach-in-lyrics

 

[Michaels Lover]

Hi everyone.

I was just checking some random Jackson lyrics that I didn't get straight away (English is not my main language).

And I came to wonder: how do you people cope with the religious/God-related aspects in MJ's discography?

Without giving my own full answer right away, here is an example of things I don't appreciate being told (be it by a person or a song)

I don't mind it/it doesn't bother me

 

[zinniabooklover]

Hi everyone.

I was just checking some random Jackson lyrics that I didn't get straight away (English is not my main language).

And I came to wonder: how do you people cope with the religious/God-related aspects in MJ's discography?

Doesn't bother me. Can't say it interests me hugely, either. I accept Michael's faith as part of who he was and, of course, his thinking changed somewhat as he aged and got more mature. I do love the fact that he was so upfront about his faith and prayer and didn't shy away from mentioning it in interviews. Not many people in the pop / rock world do that. I also love the fact that he didn't preach to people and try to convert them. Obviously, when he was with JW he did the door-to-door thing but, I mean, I wouldn't say he tried to preach to his fanbase, he wasn't evangelising, imo. He was upfront about his beliefs and his fans can make of that what they will.

I'm not a monotheist and I'm not an atheist. I'm fascinated by faith and prayer, organised religion I'm less keen on.

Without giving my own full answer right away, here is an example of things I don't appreciate being told (be it by a person or a song)

I don't like Christian worship songs or Christian rock bands. They do always feel like they are 'preaching' plus their lyrics often seem quite sickly and sentimental to me. Those J5 lyrics you quoted don't bother me. For one thing, the brothers didn't write the song, as you know. They were just singing what they were given.

 

[Maxym]

I wouldn't say he tried to preach to his fanbase (...)

I think you summarized this right for me. Even though God is a bit too present for me in a few songs, where I think removing God from those could have made them more universal/powerful, such as We've Had Enough, I still can appreciate the fact that he wasn't "preachy" in his famous solo works.

(Exception maybe Abortion Papers , but it was only released after his death... Oh and Whazupitu has some preachy lyrics.)

He also usually refers to God in a way that would unify people rather than divide them, which is easier to appreciate.

(....) Those J5 lyrics you quoted don't bother me. For one thing, the brothers didn't write the song, as you know. They were just singing what they were given.

That's also why I can do with this kind of lyrics in this era, and "focus on the melody", but I still don't like to hear that in a song.

Which brings another thought I sometimes have, to some extent HIStory validates any lyrics MJ has ever sung, by quoting young MJ saying "I don't sing if I don't mean it"... while... there are lyrics here and there in the Motown discography that I'm not convinced were worth singing for their meaning (mainly thinking about some love songs that paint what appears like somewhat toxic relationships/situations...).

 

[zinniabooklover]

I think you summarized this right for me. Even though God is a bit too present for me in a few songs, where I think removing God from those could have made them more universal/powerful, such as We've Had Enough,

Interesting. I didn't even think about WHE and it's one of my top faves. Gotta say, the god references in WHE don't hang around in my head too long. I'm just looking at this bit:

'Deep in your soul and let God decide
Deep in my soul
It's up to me and i'm still alive'

It doesn't bother me - bc it's a song lyric - but in RL I'm not up for that whole 'god has a plan for everyone' thing. Really does not work for me at all. So, in theory, I shouldn't like this lyric but I'm relaxed about it. But the really interesting part is where he sings, 'It's up to me ...' Looks to me like the person in the song has agency and isn't giving it up any time soon.

I still can appreciate the fact that he wasn't "preachy" in his famous solo works.

I think for me it's a bit like political statements. He was always socially and politically aware, imo, but it never feels like he's up on a soapbox ranting at people. Some of his lyrics are very bold but he doesn't actually harangue people.

(Exception maybe Abortion Papers , but it was only released after his death...

This is really interesting but I feel incapable of discussing Abortion Papers so will sit this one out. I will just say, it's one of my top fave songs from Michael. I don't personally believe that Michael is preaching to anyone in AP, let alone telling women what they should or should not do if they are in this situation. But I don't want to say any more bc I've noticed people get very agitated when they discuss AP.

Oh and Whazupitu has some preachy lyrics.)

Don't think I've ever made it past the first 30 seconds of that thing, lol.

That's also why I can do with this kind of lyrics in this era, and "focus on the melody", but I still don't like to hear that in a song.

Fair enough.

Which brings another thought I sometimes have, to some extent HIStory validates any lyrics MJ has ever sung, by quoting young MJ saying "I don't sing if I don't mean it"...

Tbh, I don't attach much importance to that. He was probably told to say that by Motown's PR department. I'm not saying he didn't believe it later in life. Perhaps he did. But I think too much is made of a statement he made as a child as part of a tv interview.

while... there are lyrics here and there in the Motown discography that I'm not convinced were worth singing for their meaning (mainly thinking about some love songs that paint what appears like somewhat toxic relationships/situations...).

Which is a whole topic in itself but, I agree, there are some lyrics that make me wince. A few songs I can't even listen to now. It's tricky. Some of those early songs are brilliant and I wouldn't want the whole J5 discography to be RR, lol. But I do know what you mean.

 

[Maxym]

Interesting. I didn't even think about WHE and it's one of my top faves. Gotta say, the god references in WHE don't hang around in my head too long. I'm just looking at this bit:

'Deep in your soul and let God decide
Deep in my soul
It's up to me and i'm still alive'

It doesn't bother me - bc it's a song lyric - but in RL I'm not up for that whole 'god has a plan for everyone' thing. Really does not work for me at all. So, in theory, I shouldn't like this lyric but I'm relaxed about it. But the really interesting part is where he sings, 'It's up to me ...' Looks to me like the person in the song has agency and isn't giving it up any time soon.

I don't think it's about a God having a plan for everyone (That would Whazupwitu : "Man is a creation, man is nothing else" , or HIStory : "... live the prophet's plan".) I think in WHE it's rather saying that people should not "choose" death for one another. (If it wasn't written by Michael, I could even see "God" as some kind of placeholder/default word. As if an atheist would use the expression "Oh my God" or "Only God knows...".)
But he repeats "God" so many times I can't miss it.
Sometimes, I'll mentally-"improve" the song by "hearing" some things like "...let "random" decide", or slightly more ironic "...let Mom decide".

Don't think I've ever made it past the first 30 seconds of that thing, lol.

I just re-listened to it and I understand this...

Tbh, I don't attach much importance to that. He was probably told to say that by Motown's PR department. I'm not saying he didn't believe it later in life. Perhaps he did. But I think too much is made of a statement he made as a child as part of a tv interview.

Back then it was likely an ephemeral PR moment, but being quoted in the song HIStory gives it a much wider scope.

Now, people could argue that the lyrics I don't like in Whazuptwitu are sung by Eddie Murphy and the lyrics I don't like in Reach In are mainly sung by Jermaine. But I can find other lyrics sung by Michael that I somewhat see as mistakes (not necessarily God-related).

Which is a whole topic in itself but, I agree, there are some lyrics that make me wince. A few songs I can't even listen to now.

Like, which ones you can't listen to? (This just got me curious on the topic.)

 

[Hot_Street]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky

 

[zinniabooklover]

I don't think it's about a God having a plan for everyone

Mm, I dunno. Having the words 'God' and 'decide' together like that, for me that suggests the 'god has a plan thing'. But I'm not being dogmatic about this. Your interpretation works, too, and since that line doesn't bother me or even register that much ...

(That would Whazupwitu : "Man is a creation, man is nothing else" , or HIStory : "... live the prophet's plan".) I think in WHE it's rather saying that people should not "choose" death for one another. (If it wasn't written by Michael, I could even see "God" as some kind of placeholder/default word. As if an atheist would use the expression "Oh my God" or "Only God knows...".)

That's kind of more how I take it except I wouldn't even limit it to atheists (not that I would know since I'm not one, lol).

But he repeats "God" so many times I can't miss it.

Fair point.

Sometimes, I'll mentally-"improve" the song by "hearing" some things like "...let "random" decide", or slightly more ironic "...let Mom decide".

I don't do this deliberately but I don't always know all of the lyrics of a song 100% and it doesn't bother me. I'm more into the song as a whole, I never feel driven to chase down every last meaning of every syllable.

I just re-listened to it and I understand this...

Back then it was likely an ephemeral PR moment, but being quoted in the song HIStory gives it a much wider scope.

Mm, feeling a bit lukewarm about this suggestion but, yeah, that is a fair point.

Like, which ones you can't listen to? (This just got me curious on the topic.)

Oh, it just got weird. Normally I would say can't listen to 'You've Changed' but I just checked it out and it didn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. Also, I used to prefer the Tamla version but just now I enjoyed the Steeltown Records version much more. It's less polished, of course, but it's got a bouncier pace and feel. Anyway, it didn't bother me that much this time around so I don't know what that's about, lol. In the past I have definitely felt a bit uncomfortable about the lyrics for 'Touch' but I just listened to it and was more bothered by the slightly MOR (imo!) feel and production. It seemed a little bit cheesy to me more than anything.

Going back to your original point, I see that Hot Street has posted some lyrics from Imagine. Now those I don't like. I can take any number of references to God in a song and I'll just engage with it intellectually and explore what I think it might mean or it just doesn't register with me that much. The John Lennon lyrics, can't stand them, tbh. They annoy me immensely. No offence to anyone who likes the song - I know the song has a huge fanbase - but, for me, ugh! Drippy song, drippy lyrics.

And I came to wonder: how do you people cope with the religious/God-related aspects in MJ's discography?

This is how I feel about 'Imagine'. I can't be doing with it.

Without giving my own full answer right away, here is an example of things I don't appreciate being told (be it by a person or a song)

This. 100%. This is exactly how I feel about 'Imagine'. 'Don't appreciate' - that sums it up!

OK, so ... your point about some of Michael's lyrics, I now understand that a bit better. I don't agree bc I don't have the same reaction but I do now understand this much more than I did.

 

[Maxym]

(Note: I feel like this answer is digression from the thread, though not from the recent discussions. (Though parts may have to do with different kind of "beliefs".)

(...) 'You've Changed' (...) 'Touch'

I'd say I sometimes felt a bit weird about You've Changed (because in a part, it describes a guy who seems just sooooo focused on looks and clothing... but it also makes sense to me that when people change over time, things like attraction may also change... though usually it worsens rather than improve), but in both cases here I haven't been to deep into the lyrics. In the same vain as Touch, there's also Touch The One You Love (I think both feel weird indeed).

Some examples on my side (that have nothing to do with God(s)/religion... ) :
Examples that I actually don't listen much to any more:
- If I Have To Move A Mountain: Used to be one of my favourite Jackson 5 songs for singing/melody but, mainly verse 2 kind of takes me out of the song for me 'In your eyes, I see no faith / There's an absence of trust in your embrace / But why would I pretend to give / Just to take from the person for whom I live'.
- Music's Takin' Over: I don't like the lyrics overall but especially : 'Music is a teacher / That can teach you right from wrong / ... / There's a lesson in the song' or worse 'They (people) make their decision / By the records that they play'... come on...

Examples where it's just some lines here and there but I still appreciate the songs overall:
- Be Not Always: I think it's a great song, but I think the word 'research' is misused in place of 'industry'.
- I'm extremely uncomfortable with dancing myself, so any song about people enjoying dancing is perfectly fine, but when it's turned in a way that dancing in mandatory, reminding of dance-centric society and social pressure that goes with it... I don't like that aspect.
- Also Smile (and MJ's craze about smiling like wanting his employees to always to always smile)... I get it that it's a beautiful song to encourage the listener to feel happy, but same as for dancing. I'm unable to put a smile expression on my face on command, which sometimes induces the same kind of social pressure as for dancing. Also, smiling can be used to fake happiness or manipulate, and assuming that someone who doesn't smile isn't happy and someone who smiles is happy is just inaccurate.

 

[Hot_Street]

Don't know much biology? Here you go:

The Blind Watchmaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[zinniabooklover]

- Music's Takin' Over: I don't like the lyrics overall but especially : 'Music is a teacher / That can teach you right from wrong / ... / There's a lesson in the song' or worse 'They (people) make their decision / By the records that they play'... come on...

I don't know this song well bc I've never even got halfway through but I do think those lyrics are naff. They just seem really generic to me. The lyricists are trying too hard. I think they are trying to be profound and it simply isn't working, imo.

- Also Smile (and MJ's craze about smiling like wanting his employees to always to always smile)

uh, really? Seriously? That's not some kind of Taraborelli / tabloid nonsense? god, I had no idea. That would hack me off big time.

I'll take it with a pinch of salt, if that's OK. Any story about Michael I automatically place it in the pending tray with a big question mark over it, lol.

... I get it that it's a beautiful song to encourage the listener to feel happy, but same as for dancing. I'm unable to put a smile expression on my face on command, which sometimes induces the same kind of social pressure as for dancing. Also, smiling can be used to fake happiness or manipulate, and assuming that someone who doesn't smile isn't happy and someone who smiles is happy is just inaccurate.

Yes, I take your point. These ideas can be really positive and helpful but they can also become tyrannical and counter-productive.

 

[Maxym]

uh, really? Seriously? That's not some kind of Taraborelli / tabloid nonsense? god, I had no idea. That would hack me off big time.

I think I read this on this forum. But like many info, this on I cannot fully fact-check. I thought it had to do with the fact that he wanted his place to be like a mini Disneyland... In the same info, they also said that his employees were not allowed to look at him when not required. Which could be understandable for privacy reasons... I thought maybe that's not just MJ, maybe other famous people have this in their employees' contracts... no idea actually.