ABC 20/20 has a good MJ special on today

Limonali · Jun 27, 2010

Do you know if that's available anywhere to watch in full?
( I saw the bits on yt..)

ForeverKOP · Jun 27, 2010

I hate how everything we discussed the weeks after TII was released was contradicted in this special. After all of those discussions done on here and on other MJ forums after TII, I thought I had finally come to the conclusion that MJ was happy at the end of his life and he was fit enough to do those shows, but I am once again faced with the shady accounts of "eye witnesses". As someone else said earlier in this thread, the show was heavily focused on the circumstances surrounding MJ's death, his health, etc. This was one of the most depressing heart breaking specials I've ever seen about MJ, and I cried through almost all of it. I thought my wounds were healing up, but apparently I was wrong. I seriously don't know what to believe anymore. There's one side saying he was happy, fine, on top of it, great, in perfect health etc. Then there's another side saying that he was afraid, sad, depressed, forced into doing the shows, scared for his life, complete opposite of what the other side is saying. What really confuses me is when those people SWITCH sides and change their story. Karen Faye has always been a severely "un-liked" woman by Michael's fans. How can anything this woman was saying during this show be credible? She went on to say that TII was heavily edited and that it wasn't a true presentation of what Michael was going through. With all these statements people are making about it being "false", I can't even watch TII in peace anymore!! And now one of the dancers is going along with the opposition - Faye's side of the story???? Were all those dancers being paid to lie about Michael?!

Arklove · Jun 27, 2010

I completely, whole heartedly agree with you...I've never been so confused in my life.....The only effing thing I'm sure about is much I love and miss Michael!

diana79 · Jun 27, 2010

I believe Karen and the follower fans, because I just don't see why they would lie about what they saw. I know why AEG would encourage everyone on their payroll to lie - to make money. Let's say that Kenny, Travis, the dancers, the musicians, etc. all did interviews saying that Michael was unhealthy, too thin, and couldn't rehearse an entire song without stopping. If they had said those things, would anyone want to even see This Is It?

I think that Michael was feeling happy and excited at times, but sad and afraid at other times. There are moments in This Is It when he seems genuinely excited about the concerts. We all know that he was not happy about the 50 shows, though.

BTW - I love the pic in your signature.

dangerous_88 · Jun 28, 2010

I am completely with you on this one, and I feel the same... It's heart wrenching and the truth will never be known. So many unanswered questions... as if it weren't enough to bear with the alone fact that he died.

Jstarr06 · Jun 28, 2010

That's all I can think about during the special was, that we won't really know everything.

Thetruthbetold · Jun 28, 2010

agree all of that what they said was sicken...and karen was not there at every rehersal so she can cut that out i personally feels she hurt over that fact that Mrs.Jackson is not feeling her and a few people who claim to love her son the real people who try to do something is apart of Mrs.Jackson's life and making strong moves for her while people like KF is out here making a fool of her self confessing her un dying love for MJ its not that serious mama you was only his makeup artist just deal with that and the good memories don't start all that side line talking if she seen that there was a problem with MJ life style she shoulf of step in and help him other than that she and the rest of them can tell there story walking

Muumi · Jun 28, 2010

I have to believe Michael loved what he did to create TII with Kenny. What I did notice at the time when I saw TII is that Michael was not in control of the show like he always was...I am not sure to what extent AEG was ready to give him free hands in what to do. I think Kenny tried his best to find a compromise. Michael wanted the world on stage...

I find it hard to understand why there are so many stories about Michael doing the shows and whether he was fit to do them...why there are two camps fighting over who gets heard almost. No one is really thinking about Michael and what he needed and wanted....

I think Kenny wanted Michael to be strong and he treated him like that. You can see it on TII the way Kenny speaks with Michael at times....and I think that is best way to help someone in Michael situations when you self confidence is low. Karen on the other hand treated Michael like a baby almost smothering him. At the same time, I can understand her because she saw the whole thing from a different perspective...I think it was all about MJs own journey and fight. He wanted to be perfect but could not do it...Kenny probably encouraged him to do stuff, Karen saw the other side. I just don't understand what made Michael to lose so much weight during the last week. Did he just give up?

gerryevans · Jun 28, 2010

^^^^I love your post. It's hard to be objective about this situation considering the resulting tragedy, but you point out there are two sides. Your perspective about both camps seems on target IMO.

I don't know if the lost weight happened in one week, but did happen quickly.
It was not only due to MJ being back dancing and rehearsing like he hadn't in 8 years (since 2001 Madison Square), but another element he was enduring like he'd only had to endure to this extent one other time--STRESS. And the one other time was during the trial. We saw him at the beginning of the trial and at the end of it. The change was drastic and alarming. For TII, the stress of a comeback, putting himself out there again to be pounced on, being a perfectionist, his financial situation, etc. makes it easy to understand the lost weight.

What bugged me about Karen on 20/20 is that she talked about what MJ "used to do". That he used to be able to go through a full rehearsal without stopping. etc. Well, this was 12 years since he'd really done a tour. Of course, it would not be the same experience. Her concerns were legitimate. Dehydration put him close to death once before, but to leave that out there as if that was the culpable reason for his death this time is wrong. Weight loss didn't cause his death. Dr. Conrad Murray's negligence did.

Michael got through that trial, and I think he would have gotten through TII if not for Murray's incompetence.

ETA: Not only didn't he give up, it looks like he was really back on his game that last rehearsal. Everything had really come together for him. There was an exec from the Grammy's there that day (not affiliated with AEG or anybody else) and he said MJ was great.

gerryevans · Jun 28, 2010

I think you can have peace about TII. A marathon runner who hasn't run for 12 years doesn't come out the gate running as he did in his prime. For Karen or anyone else expecting to see Michael perform without stops and starts is unrealistic. I think by that last rehearsal Michael had pulled it all together. There was this big smile of satisfaction on his face at the end of They Don't Really Care About Us. It was NOT edited in. It was a satisfied MJ.

Vici · Jun 28, 2010

DR Tohme Tohme reappered in the documentary from wherever he has been hiding.

He is described as a very private businessman that was brought in by Jermaine in the last minute to save Neverland from foreclosure. He described Neverland at that time as run down, the pond was filthy, the grass was dying etc.

Then this special talks about MJs finances.. Dr Tohme said he had to convince MJ to stop resisting a comeback and start performing again. Dr Tohme said to MJ "If u want to control your own destiny, then you have to go back to work because you need to make money". The shows in London was the soloution.

riviera1992 · Jun 29, 2010

You're 100% right.
If we take Murray out of the equation, Michael survives and goes on to make his amazing concert. Whether he'd make 50 without rescheduling some shows is another story. Bottom line: Murray out, MJ alive.

PS: I'm 53 and even though one's mind after 50 years of age is still young, sadly our bodies seem to go in the opposite direction. Physical pain becomes part of your daily life :timer:

max000 · Jun 29, 2010

Believe your eyes. Do not let any one spin you. Trust your instincts, when you first saw TII. Where you are now, was exactly where i was before i saw TII. I was scared to death to see TII, because of the drug addict rumors coming from the JACKSONS camp. It took me three days before i saw the movie. I deliberately went alone because i wanted to scrutinized this movie like no body's business. Within 5 mins of watching i exhaled, because i realised every one had lied. I sat through that movie with the biggest grin. I was so happy, and satisfied with what was on that screen, i returned to see MJ 14 times.

After seeing TII, numerous people including MJ'S detractors, said he looked healthy and normal. LESTER HOLT on NBC saturday's weekend TODAY SHOW talked about MJ and TII. The panel, including TOURE all said MJ looked healthy and normal, he looked thin, but strong, not weak.

dangerous dave · Jun 30, 2010

I don't believe Karen about what she said about Michael's rehearsals
I know in my heart that michael was healthy and ready to do the tour
Thinking about her comments in the special made me feel uneasy to watch the this is it film. But I like to believe that michael was exited and in good shape. And you can see that in the film even with editing.
And off course he lost weight because of the stress and all of that. But he died because of that stupid doctor not of his health, his health was fine. period

Arklove · Jun 30, 2010

My boyfriend, who is a casual fan of Michael's, watched TII with me last night, after he hadn't watched it in MONTHS....and, actually, TII was playing the movie channel, and it happened to be on Billie Jean....My bf was very quiet watching him, and when Michael was freestyling at the end of BJ, my bf was like, 'damn, that's pretty fuckin' good for 50 years old' .....so just him saying that, sorta gives a perspective from a non-fan almost, and therefore, gives the impression that he really was on top of his game....

side note: I remember KF mentioning in the special that Michael was wearing layers of clothing because he was so cold, and thin....but i don't know how valid that is, because I'm sure we've all seen Michael, rehearsing for the Bad tour in that big winter jacket he was wearing....so her claim doesn't seem to make any sense...

Muumi · Jun 30, 2010

Thanks Gerryevans.

Another thing I can not really understand is, when I read about Michael's condition from the recent claim Joe made against AEG, it appears he was so ill...He had a swollen brain (which I thought happened before his passing) and anemia....that brain thing definitely is worrying. He was not feeling well either...Karen said he was not himself that last week.

I think Michael wanted to do the shows and with regards to editing the TII rehearsals, I still think that MJ could have done the shows the way he could based on what I saw. The stress was too much I am sure and I am not sure whether MJ was actually ill. That made him unable to sleep. I just read some comments of MJs ex doctor from the History tour. He said that MJ was put under Propofol induced sleep and brought back again in the mornings cos he had a sleeping disorder. He could not sleep cos of the excitement and stress...and if not treated, he would have been up for 2 days and then crashed. Karen confirmed this as well in that 20/20 show (that he was not able to sleep cos of the adrenalin).

I am not sure what to think about AEG. They obviously want the people to see them as the party who gave Michael his dream back...but there are some shady people associated and I can only hope, they really wanted whats best for Michael.

I also know MJ did not like how the tickets were sold...apparently Michael was to gain his profits from the ticket sales...only, not from the tour revenues. I am not sure how that would have worked out.

There are so many questions and I think we will never know. Murray is probably saying MJ killed himself and its worrying that they actually implied that in that document...that there was only two possibilities, either there was someone else injecting the stuff or MJ did it himself....I have to say I only saw an edited version of the show. (and I hope Janet and others who said MJ was an addict would keep it zipped unless they want to be witnesses for the defense)!! I don't believe MJ was addicted to anything.

Muumi · Jun 30, 2010

...and would that postponing of the shows have anything to do with MJs condition? I can think numerous reasons why the show was postponed and MJ not being ready is not one of them.

riviera1992 · Jul 1, 2010

This discussion prompted me to watch TII again and really try hard to see Michael as weak and ill. Sorry Karen but I just don't see it.

And about the different clips for the same songs doesn't mean that MJ wasn't physically able to perform. If you look at the songs and follow the clips sequence with one specific outfit you can see he's rehearsing the whole song and others on the same day. IMO, "They" edited different days to make sure we see all his moves. Not because he was too weak to finish the songs.

We all know MJ wasn't happy about the ear monitors. That's the only time he looked lost, at the beginning of J5 medley. But when he took them off and gave Kenny a look that say:"been singin' since 5, shove these things where the sun don't shine" with LOVE L.O.V.E., after that, he did great. He still put such feelings into those old songs that he's done all his life.

I can imagine there was frustrating days and Michael expressed his feelings to people close to him the longest but at the same time, always at his best with the new young dancers.

I don't think any of these people are lying. Different perception at different time.

Muumi · Jul 1, 2010

Well, I can say for sure, Michael was very skinny...and I have my reasons to believe Michael lost interest in doing the shows...because it became very clear, there would not be one and it was not Michael's fault. Obviously, the people and some of the fans would have thought it was Michae'l fault. (which would have been a nightmare for Michael because he must have felt, there was no where to turn to).

If you watch the TII, the dance routines are the same as in History....therefore, no problem for MJ. But he looks exhausted after doing the Beat it rehearsals...I have never seen MJ so tired...that he wold have asked the lights to be turned off while he was walking of the stage to take 10 min break. That probably is nothing for us...but for him, hard I suppose.

I would like to know what really did happen.

Sorry, I know this was all about the 20/20 show....the show just raised more concerns and doubts....

andythemisfit · Jul 1, 2010

There is nothing that showed that MJ suffered from anemia and a swollen brain from his autopsy report. And those claims came from Oxman who has also included a whole other bunch of exaggerated nonsense in his lawsuit against AEG like MJ suffering from bronchitis! Come on!

riviera1992 · Jul 4, 2010

^^^ I hear ya.
But I thought the Jacksons had a private autopsy?? Maybe they got different things???

Back on topic
I wonder what Karen Faye thought about the March announcement? She said, she first heard about the concert when she saw Michael on TV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQZgU8xj-jM&NR=1

IMO, Michael did great despise the nervousness/shyness (so cute!!) but he was doing his thing like a boxing match announcement: the little boxing move he did (so cuuuttee!) and then the pose and litl' diddy with the black power salute. (sooo sexy) That drove the crowd in a frenzy.

Don't know if it was rehearsed or improv, but genial nonetheless.

And starting at 2:00 when he was telling the fans how much he loves them, very heartfelt and poignant.

Anyway the point is, he looked just as skinny in March.

What was Ferrigno doing all these months when he was supposed to beef up Michael?

rainny · Jul 4, 2010

Brian Oxman was asked that question during one of Eddie Jones' shows, and

he said that the results were consistent. Then, he said that it was a body

examination, which made me wonder if there was a actually a second autopsy

performed or not. Karen Faye said there were two of them though.

rainny · Jul 4, 2010

Ferrigno said that it was mostly about flexibility; that he wouldn't lift weights

as heavy as the ones he lifted for the HIStory tour, which weren't heavy in

the first place, and that they saw each other two or three times per week

for two months. Lou didn't see MJ during the last month, he said.

PoP · Jul 4, 2010

I recorded it on tape, I think it was good, I'd say I give a 9/10. They keep saying he's not in perfect shape, he has bronchitis, he's too fragile, it's like they're twisting everything up, even the truth. They better get the facts straight or shut the hell up, it's either he's healthy during his rehearsals or not, they can't say he's not healthy til the last minute.

ABC 20/20 has a good MJ special on today

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