War In Libya!

[souldreamer7]

So it is supposed to be better if these countries kill innocent people instead of Gaddaf!!!!


It's no different then the illegal war in Iraq................and the country is in a bigger mess then before these countries "intervened".........


If these countries really want to free countries...............then why don't they free Tibet..........


End of the day they just want the oil.............


All politicians are Evil................the reason I will never join the armed forces is because I never want to do their dirty work!!!!!!!!

Free Tibet :yes:

 

[LoveMJackson]

sorry but you really not in a position to judge. i suggest the book though shall not hate written by the palestinian dr whos 3 daughters were killed by the IDF on their war on gaza and what hes gone through his entire life. afterwhat happened to the jews in ww2 you would think of all ppl they wouldnt act like they do but i guess the persecuted have become the persecutors which is even more disgusting and shamful and use the shoah as an excuse for it and bring it up when ever anyone critizes their treatement of others. . where no one dare say a word and let them get away with what they want. from the blowing up of the king david hotel and killing soliders who only a couple of years earlier were freeing them from camps.to ethnic cleansing of ppl etc etc .its funny how history repeats itself

oh you again. you have to reply to every single post I write regarding Israel, you just cant resist. lol well, if I’m not in a position to judge, like you say then you’re even more! Shall I write all the bloody history/present of the UK? Oh it will take like 10000 pages! With all due respect, this is a discussion forum and I have the right to write my opinion on the matter. You have some nerve, seriously. The only one who mentions the Holocaust non stop is you. And if you dare to compare us to the Nazis then I think you should be ashamed of yourself because you disrespect the victims. You have no idea what you are talking about. You remind me of Norman Finkelstein with this BS (just that he’s a Jew so I find it even worse). You are one sided and brainwashed as I said to you before. Only Israel is to blame, the rest are angels. You are such a hypocrite.

I never claimed the rest of the Middle Eastern countries were any better. However, these issues are greatly known throughout the world and Arab Muslims bear the stigma of their government's actions, in contrast to Israel. ( I may as well add, it is necessary to separate a people from its government, and my critiques regarding any country, including Arab countries, is specifically directed against its government and not its people. There are many people within each cited country who do not support the atrocities their governments are committing, and I applaud these people for having sense.)

You mentioned the apartheid and Israel in the same sentence and the ‘U.N in favor of Israel’, therefore, I brought up all these examples to put things in proportions. While there are many resolutions for Israel, there NONE for these countries! Its ‘funny’, the main topic here is Libya, at least it supposed to be, not Israel. Well, what about the stigmatization of Israelis/Jews? I never put the blame on every Arab/ Muslim in those countries, clearly the majority of them are suffering under these cruel regimes and the sharia law that is the main problem in these countries.

Their civil benefits are altered so as to benefit Jews rather than Muslims in Israel, though, and it's no secret that Palestinians have less opportunities to succeed than Jews do. What good is a "voting right" if you've got no power where it counts, and only on paper? Self defence and security reasons?! They've got all the nukes--what kind of self-defence do they need? Why haven't they agreed to sign the non-proliferation treaty, if their sole purpose is to protect human rights? Surely, they have no need for extensive nuclear power against enemies whose best methods are guerrilla warfare and other primitive tactics.

Sorry but your post is really ignorant. ‘Nuke'? who the hell will use nuke? Come on. And What does that have to do with anything? When terrorists lunch rockets towards Israel, blowing up buses and hurting/killing civilians what do you expect Israel to do? This called a self defense! Actually it’s the Arabs who refuse to sign peace treaty, since 1948. And about nuclear power, Israel is surrounded by countries who seek to wipe her off the map, Iran soon will have a nuclear weapon and I think you know how crazy the regime is. So its certainly for self defense, I doubt Israel will ever use this. It can hurt Israel itself.

Israel, on the other hand, does claim to be a progressive and this is clear in its alliances with other hypocrites like the U.S., so that what you get in the end is something truly horrific and strangely laughable. Through its actions and horrible violations such as the atrocities which occurred in Gaza, it is deemed a hypocrite.

The real hypocrisy is your obsession (and its not directed to you only) with Israel while other western nations commit the real crimes against humanity, much bigger but yet Israel is your main target. That’s what I call hypocrisy & double standards.

There is also one important point--all the wonderful things you cited in your post only apply to Israel proper, not its territories, which are widely known to be starkly different in the way they treat the people who inhabit those areas, who are Palestinian. Educate yourself:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2010/12/19/separate-and-unequal

As I said, Israel is not perfect, like every other country in this world and I don’t agree with many things my government does but you, like elusive moonwalker, you are one sided so there is no point. The media is a strong thing and its anti Israel, therefore, you spew your propaganda everywhere. The media feed you with lies and you buy it.

It's the principle which matters in my eyes, not the person. If we are to truly call ourselves better or above Eichmann and everything he stood for, we ought to adhere by our own principles of following international law and going by obtaining his arrest in the proper way, whether that means pressuring Argentina, etc. There is no reason why he should have been kidnapped the way he was, and tried in a country which wasn't his own, under laws which did not exist at the time of his crimes. He ought to have been tried and executed in Germany, along with the rest of the war criminals.

That means nothing to me? How dare you assume that? It means a lot to me, actually--I never said he shouldn't have been tried. I was criticizing the methods used to obtain him, not the reasons nor the results. Moreover, in the same way Eichmann was tried, we should be trying those violators of rights on the winning side of history, such as the Soviet soldiers who raped German women and girls, and the perpetrators of the Gaza massacre, Bush and Co. for screwing Iraq--they all belong under the category of war criminals and despicable human beings along with Eichmann. Like I said, we're dealing with human lives, not potatoes. It doesn't matter if it was millions or one hundred, or forty. It's all equally despicable and sick, and these people should all pay for their atrocities. However, they should also be brought to justice using the methods we have presently laid out, these laws we created are there for a reason, and no one should be above the law.

The fact that you view him as sub-human...well, I personally don't think anyone, no matter how negative their actions are, is sub-human. That's putting you right along with <i>their</i> mentality.

I nearly vomited reading this. He committed crimes against humanity, he was responsible for the killing of millions of innocent people.. and you think he shouldn&#8217;t have been punished for it? (that's what you basically say, even if you deny it) and we have no right to search for him? I don&#8217;t care if he ran away from Germany, that doesn&#8217;t mean he shouldn&#8217;t pay for what he had done. Millions of people, babies, children are screaming out of their graves.
He is a sunhuman, he viewed us as subhumans so that makes him one himself. Ok, I understand, it&#8217;s the second time I&#8217;ve been called a Nazi here. You and elusive moonwalker should make a tea party lol and continue with this trashy talk with yourselves. Have fun!

 

[JMie]

@JMie: I have Lenin as my signature because he was a very intelligent and different man. Yes, he was ruthless in some ways, but at least he wasn't a constant wolf in sheep's clothing like the capitalist politicians tend to be. At some point in time, especially before and during the Russian Revolution, he had the people's interests in mind and suffered from banishments to Siberia and other such punishments to improve the conditions of the working class. He didn't become power-hungry until later on, but at least he wasn't a self-serving sock puppet like the capitalist politicians of this day and age, whose only concern since the beginning was to further their own agendas. The day Obama or George W. Bush get banished to Siberia over "hope" or "freedom" will be the day I'll consider gaining an ounce of respect for them. Until then, I've got nothing but a goose egg for them.

hmm ok. nevermind that he put the whole country into the socialist slavery for 70 years, which we still can't recover from to this day cause our current leaders are doing their best to return to those times. but him having to spend some time in Siberia, is very admirable yes. lol

anyway, that's offtopic, sorry.

 

[Krshna28]

Free Tibet :yes:

But the UN will never do it.................because they have nothing to gain from it................


But in Libya.............loads of oil!!!!!!

 

[Sophielo]

Guys this is getting very heated and people are naturally getting defensive when their countries are being criticised. This is a debate which is of course encouraged but when people are being called Nazis that is completely unacceptable. Discuss the conflict but do not use this as an attempt to bash everyone's countries/

 

[Alma]

It's very late, and my coherence is fading... These 'allies' seem to be on a competition (ages old) on who's to be the next best terrorist. They're furiously grouping their armies to destroy a small country big on oil like Libya is. Transparent monsters.

Berlusconi kissing Gaddafi's hand last year, now splashing it all over. ..2 hypocritical for words.

What about the horror atrocities committed in Myanmar, where it didn't seem to the world's elites that bad to intervene, what about when Hussein would kill his people by the thousands, yet they only intervened when they got to feel the empowering smell of oil there, just like with mind control, by pushing a certain button, you're instantaneously altering your state, they too then felt like saying 'Oh, the terrorists' right after. What about, what about...

Typical of predators to corner and devour a small deer. Those 'allies' are so not helpers, but 'canibals'.

 

[souldreamer7]

But the UN will never do it.................because they have nothing to gain from it................


But in Libya.............loads of oil!!!!!!

:agree:

I am always hoping to be proven wrong and pray that goodness will come of everything. ....but as you've said... and I'm paraphrasing ..If there wasn't anything to gain.. then yes.. why hasn't Tibet had it's freedom....

:rollingpeace:



:wub:
souldreamer7

 

[SLAYER]

why dont they free bahrain or yemen, what about tibet? what about civilians in gaza 2 years ago? or does interventions goes only to contries with OIL.

a wise man once said, 'They don't care about us'.

 

[LoveMJackson]

^^Gaza is not a country. It is controlled by Hamas, whom the civilians of Gaza chose to rule them. If you want to free them, you will have to start with Iran & Syria.
In bahrain the problem is that the rebels are shiite, backed by Iran. Its a fight between Sunnis & Shiite.

 

[Severus Snape]

I criticized the UK as well, and said they are directly responsible, along with the United States and other superpowers in 19th century Wester Europe, for the poor state Africa and Asia are in right now. It is through their actions, especially Britain's since they were among the longest to hold out, not relinquishing control over places like India until the 20th century, that many of these countries and entire continents are in the conditions they are today, due to their raping those lands out of their rich natural resources--that's an entirely different sort of crime, but a crime nonetheless. We still feel the echo of imperialism, and they have yet to do anything to help those people.

The people of Israel recieve monetary compensation from Germany for what the Germans did the Third Reich, and rightly so. However, I suggest we extend that idea further by making the U.S. and the U.K. pay monetary compensation for what they did to Africa and Asia in the 19th and 20th century. For that matter, the U.S. should pay Iraqi citizens for f--king their country over in less than a decade. Even more so, the U.S. should pay to support Native Americans, who as of yet do NOT receive compensation from the U.S. government for pretty much wiping most of their population off the face of the planet.

You are right, Israel is not alone in its crimes, but I never claimed it was. You seem to focus more on what I say about Israel than what I say about the rest of the countries which are its allies, such as the UN heavyweights U.S. and U.K. Like I said before, Israel is but a tiny speck of my argument, the mass sum of which is centered around the real world superpowers like the U.S. and the U.K. Historically speaking, these are among the two nations with the biggest body counts and disasters caused by their direct greed.

Have you even bothered to read my posts, or are you just twisting my words to find something to write some reactionary thing to? If only Israel were to blame for our world's problems, we would have far less problems in this world, with only the populations it chooses to discriminate against being in the hot seat. However, as I have been saying since post one, the world superpowers are the ones to blame for the present state of things, most notably the United States. Israel's transgressions are local, but the U.S. crimes stretch across the globe, whether by aggression (destroying Iraq) or by lack of action (refusing to respond to the pleas of impoverished nations who actually want their troops there to help bring down petty dictators.)

If anybody here is brainwashed, it's you, seeing as you're so in denial about what's going on, and so aggressive in your responses towards me, putting words in my mouth which are simply untrue, such as that I don't care about the innocent children who died in the Holocaust. I think I've already stated my views on that, and those are, in case you missed them, that I support people like Eichmann being put on trial for their crimes--however, I am also not brainwashed to believe the losers in history are the sole people who should be put on trial--Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary and borne out of nothing but cruetly, crimes against a civilian population who were not at fault for their political leaders' actions--and we have yet to see anyone in the US go to trial over that. Then, there's the fact that the Soviets had the highest body count during all of the second world war (and arguably history)--why don't we condemn the Russians with "never forget" etc. Are the people who died in the Gulag and through other horrendously unpleasant means less than holocaust victims? The United States and Great Britain knew what was going on in Russia, bu the only reason they chose not to take any action against their greater crimes was because they found themselves allied to them at a time of war. Even after the war, they failed to do anything to save these people--so what I am criticizing is not the actions taken against the architects of the Holocaust, but the actions <i>not</i> taken against other criminals, who happened to be on the winning side of history.

I would have thought by now it would be clear that it's about the principle with me, and choosing whose crimes to punish and whose crimes to ignore, is a direct violation of the high principle of placing value on human lives, regardless of the number, especially when it is the government who is involved in the killing of thousands or millions of innocent human beings.

You mentioned the apartheid and Israel in the same sentence and the &#8216;U.N in favor of Israel&#8217;, therefore, I brought up all these examples to put things in proportions. While there are many resolutions for Israel, there NONE for these countries! Its &#8216;funny&#8217;, the main topic here is Libya, at least it supposed to be, not Israel. Well, what about the stigmatization of Israelis/Jews? I never put the blame on every Arab/ Muslim in those countries, clearly the majority of them are suffering under these cruel regimes and the sharia law that is the main problem in these countries.

The stigmatization of Jews for the actions of a government is also as deplorable as the stigmatization of Arabs for the actions of a government or a terrorist organization. I think we've discussed at large just how useless the U.N. truly is, with you citing that you agreed, so what good are all these "resolutions" against Israel, and what good would any "resolutions" against countries like Libya be? They've done nothing to prevent powerful countries like the US and the UK from supporting Israel and its crimes against Gaza, and they even had Libya on the Human Rights Council! I think the UN has proven itself to be time and time again a joke--starting with the fact that the main countries who run/sponsor it are the biggest criminals of them all! (Their headquarters are in New York, U.S.A.)

Like I've said time and time again, I put the blame on these countries' governments and not its people. Blaming the Jews or Israeli citizens for what Israel's government does would be as illogical as blaming American citizens for the war of terror against Iraq. The average folk have no power to stop what the government decides to do in the end, and it is those who do have the power (i.e. government and its officials) whom I am criticizing. Not the people.

Sorry but your post is really ignorant. &#8216;Nuke'? who the hell will use nuke? Come on. And What does that have to do with anything? When terrorists lunch rockets towards Israel, blowing up buses and hurting/killing civilians what do you expect Israel to do? This called a self defense! Actually it&#8217;s the Arabs who refuse to sign peace treaty, since 1948. And about nuclear power, Israel is surrounded by countries who seek to wipe her off the map, Iran soon will have a nuclear weapon and I think you know how crazy the regime is. So its certainly for self defense, I doubt Israel will ever use this. It can hurt Israel itself.

The fact remains that Israel remains unwilling to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, along with India and Pakistan. Those are the only three countries in the world who have refused to sign it altogether. If these weapons are just for self-defence, then why not sign the treaty? That's something I don't get. Your post is ignorant, since you have yet to address why the Israeli government has refused to sign this treaty: http://news.antiwar.com/2010/09/21/israel-rules-out-signing-nuclear-non-proliferation-treaty/

Moreover, if they're not likely to ever use them in any case, why not sign the treaty? It's just a treaty, and it's basically harmless.

Of course Iran is a mess as well, but at least they've signed the treaty. If even a country with such an erratic government can pledge themselves to the treaty, why can't Israel? It is through their signing of this treaty that we can hold them accountable for its violation. Perhaps Israel is afraid a similar thing will occur to them if they sign it? It remains the only first world country to outright refuse to sign this treaty. Moreover, what more self-defence do they need, when they've got the US, the mightiest military power in the world, as their ally?

If we were talking about Israel in 1948, I would entertain the self-defence argument as a logical one. However, we are talking about 2011 here, over 50 years later, with Israel being the only Middle Eastern country considered a first world country, and with it having the biggest world power as its ally. They're up against people with home-made bombs and other primitive tactics (attacking a school bus would be a primitive tactic, since they do this only because they know they would lose against an actual army especially with US support.)

The real hypocrisy is your obsession (and its not directed to you only) with Israel while other western nations commit the real crimes against humanity, much bigger but yet Israel is your main target. That&#8217;s what I call hypocrisy & double standards.

No, actually, it's quite the opposite. The hypocrisy is their obsession with crimes against humanity committed by other countries, and ignoring those committed by the likes of Israel,the US and the UK. It's obvious you're a biased party since you daresay others commit "real" crimes against humanity. So, in your opinion, the massacre in Gaza is not a real crime against humanity? Like I said, my main targets were the biggest superpowers of the world. Israel only comes about because it gets their support while itself committing crimes against humanity in its occupied territories. The larger party to blame, from my perspective, would be the US.

I'm not saying other nations don't commit crimes against humanity, nor that they should not pay the consequences for such. The people who carry out attacks against Israeli civilians should be held accountable as well, as this is a crime against people who have nothing to do with either the military or the government. However, by the same token, Israel's attacks on Gaza and continued discrimination in its territories should also be treated as crimes against humanity. That's not a double-standard at all. It's fair. You commit a crime against an innocent people of any race, colour, religion, origin, etc. you pay the price. No one is above the rules.

As I said, Israel is not perfect, like every other country in this world and I don&#8217;t agree with many things my government does but you, like elusive moonwalker, you are one sided so there is no point. The media is a strong thing and its anti Israel, therefore, you spew your propaganda everywhere. The media feed you with lies and you buy it.

Actually, neither I nor Elusive Moonwalker are one-sided. We know what's going on in other countries in the world, Libya included, and we do not support it. At least I don't. However, we also know of the crimes nations like the US, the UK, and Israel commit against civilians (Iraq and Gaza, respectively.) To want justice to be served across the board for the sake of innocent people, including innocent American, British, and Israeli citizens who have suffered at the hands of terrorist groups, is neither one-sided, nor propaganda.

As a matter of fact, I happen to live in a country where the propaganda/media are very pro-US/UK/Israel. The same place where even mentioning being an Arab would probably grant you a nice place as a social outcast. So, I'm not following you with the whole "spewing propaganda" and swallowing the media lies. If I sounded like you do, perhaps I could see how that argument would be valid.

I nearly vomited reading this. He committed crimes against humanity, he was responsible for the killing of millions of innocent people.. and you think he shouldn&#8217;t have been punished for it? (that's what you basically say, even if you deny it) and we have no right to search for him? I don&#8217;t care if he ran away from Germany, that doesn&#8217;t mean he shouldn&#8217;t pay for what he had done. Millions of people, babies, children are screaming out of their graves.
He is a sunhuman, he viewed us as subhumans so that makes him one himself. Ok, I understand, it&#8217;s the second time I&#8217;ve been called a Nazi here. You and elusive moonwalker should make a tea party lol and continue with this trashy talk with yourselves. Have fun!

Right, and he should have paid, like he did. When in my post did I say he shouldn't be punished? Perhaps you need reading glasses, because I said he should have been punished in a German court like the rest of the war criminals, and brought to justice under a country which existed at the time of his crimes. It makes no sense to try him according to laws which did not exist at the time he committed his atrocities, at a place which did not exist as a nation at the time these were done. Moreover, it should have been a world trial rather than merely Israel trying him--the Nuremberg trials had judges from the US, UK, and USSR. and Eichmann's trial should have had those as well, since these people were the ones who won the war.

International policy should have been followed--yes, there was a need to get him out of Argentina, however, the means used were just as illegal. There are rules stated for a reason, and kidnapping people is not the way they should be brought to trial under any self-respecting democracy.

As for an explanation on how we ended up talking about the US/UK/UN/Israel here, in a thread about Libya, the evolution of that is simple. The original topic was stating how we are going to war against Libya over human rights violations, then we went on to comment on how the UN was completely useless, and how the so-called fighters for human freedom only seem to extend these altruistic crusades to countries who just so happen to be rich in resources like oil, while ignoring the pleas of countless others who are being bullied by dictatorial regimes. Then, the point was brought up about Libya being on the Human Rights Council, and the additional point was made that no aggressive effort is being brought about to resolve human rights issues in the US, the UK, and Israel. Why the focus on these these three? Because they're first-world countries who all claim to be progressive.

Like I said before, I have an issue with pretentiousness--you can't claim to be a progressive country if you're instigating a war for oil and wealth, or if you're committing human rights violations in your own territories, or against your prisoners of war in direct violation of the Geneva convention (as I cited, the US and Abu Grhraib--we have yet to see anyone really pay for these actions, most namely Donald Rumsfeld, who still enjoys a life of American leisure while being a disgusting criminal.)

Punishing the Libyan government while turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed by the other countries' governments makes little sense to me, and if you can't separate criticisms of a government from its people as a whole, then I can't help you. You seem very defensive in your replies, by the way.

P.S. @ Sophielo: I have yet to witness anyone actually calling anyone else a Nazi. In regards to my own postings, I have only cited earlier historical events because they are in direct connection, via timeline, to the state the world is today. It would be ignorant to not cite cause/effect, when it is so very relevant to the reason why the world is shaped as it is today, and as a History major, I cannot ignore these facts.

With that said, neither I nor anyone else can help how others choose to twist and take statements.

Moreover, no one is "bashing" nations as a whole. Criticizing a government and its actions is different from criticizing the nation altogether. A distinction between citizens and government entities exists, at least in my mind, and whenever I criticize the actions of, say, the US, I am very obviously talking about the government, and not the people. That's probably among the most important points I've repeatedly brought about.

 

[LoveMJackson]

Mikage Souji, you should learn to read. The first reply was directed at elusive moonwalker, not you.

 

[Severus Snape]

^You are very right. It was 5 a.m. when I read that, and I apologize for misreading that part of your post. I know how to read, though, and like I said, it was merely an error on my part, brought about by the lateness of the hour and the fact that I, as of right now, am not wearing my (sadly broken) glasses.

 

[LoveMJackson]

No, I have to reply to every single post which quotes me, under the assumption that you are talking to me.

I wasn't the one who posted you were in no position to judge--elusive moonwalker made that post. At least learn to distinguish between posts before accusing me of saying something. Yes, you do have the right to post your opinion and I highly respect and support your right to view these events with whatever opinion you choose, however, I've got the same right as you.

I don't dare compare you to the Nazis--I just find it ironic that the same people who formed a state as victims of a horrible event which should have never happened live under a government who turns around and discriminates against others because of factors they cannot control (i.e. Gaza territory.) Something about that is, in my perspective, a bit off. Furthermore, I'm not comparing an entire people--there are many who are in disagreement with how the government chooses to treat the Palestinians under its territory. So it would seem, I am criticizing your government and its actions, not the average person living in any of the countries I am talking about, for they have little to no power to change anything.

The UK? I criticized the UK as well, and said they are directly responsible, along with the United States and other superpowers in 19th century Wester Europe, for the poor state Africa and Asia are in right now. It is through their actions, especially Britain's since they were among the longest to hold out, not relinquishing control over places like India until the 20th century, that many of these countries and entire continents are in the conditions they are today, due to their raping those lands out of their rich natural resources--that's an entirely different sort of crime, but a crime nonetheless. We still feel the echo of imperialism, and they have yet to do anything to help those people.

The people of Israel recieve monetary compensation from Germany for what the Germans did the Third Reich, and rightly so. However, I suggest we extend that idea further by making the U.S. and the U.K. pay monetary compensation for what they did to Africa and Asia in the 19th and 20th century. For that matter, the U.S. should pay Iraqi citizens for f--king their country over in less than a decade. Even more so, the U.S. should pay to support Native Americans, who as of yet do NOT receive compensation from the U.S. government for pretty much wiping most of their population off the face of the planet.

You are right, Israel is not alone in its crimes, but I never claimed it was. You seem to focus more on what I say about Israel than what I say about the rest of the countries which are its allies, such as the UN heavyweights U.S. and U.K. Like I said before, Israel is but a tiny speck of my argument, the mass sum of which is centered around the real world superpowers like the U.S. and the U.K. Historically speaking, these are among the two nations with the biggest body counts and disasters caused by their direct greed.

Have you even bothered to read my posts, or are you just twisting my words to find something to write some reactionary thing to? If only Israel were to blame for our world's problems, we would have far less problems in this world, with only the populations it chooses to discriminate against being in the hot seat. However, as I have been saying since post one, the world superpowers are the ones to blame for the present state of things, most notably the United States. Israel's transgressions are local, but the U.S. crimes stretch across the globe, whether by aggression (destroying Iraq) or by lack of action (refusing to respond to the pleas of impoverished nations who actually want their troops there to help bring down petty dictators.)

If anybody here is brainwashed, it's you, seeing as you're so in denial about what's going on, and so aggressive in your responses towards me, putting words in my mouth which are simply untrue, such as that I don't care about the innocent children who died in the Holocaust. I think I've already stated my views on that, and those are, in case you missed them, that I support people like Eichmann being put on trial for their crimes--however, I am also not brainwashed to believe the losers in history are the sole people who should be put on trial--Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary and borne out of nothing but cruetly, crimes against a civilian population who were not at fault for their political leaders' actions--and we have yet to see anyone in the US go to trial over that. Then, there's the fact that the Soviets had the highest body count during all of the second world war (and arguably history)--why don't we condemn the Russians with "never forget" etc. Are the people who died in the Gulag and through other horrendously unpleasant means less than holocaust victims? The United States and Great Britain knew what was going on in Russia, bu the only reason they chose not to take any action against their greater crimes was because they found themselves allied to them at a time of war. Even after the war, they failed to do anything to save these people--so what I am criticizing is not the actions taken against the architects of the Holocaust, but the actions <i>not</i> taken against other criminals, who happened to be on the winning side of history.

I would have thought by now it would be clear that it's about the principle with me, and choosing whose crimes to punish and whose crimes to ignore, is a direct violation of the high principle of placing value on human lives, regardless of the number, especially when it is the government who is involved in the killing of thousands or millions of innocent human beings.

Again, my first reply wasn't aimed at you so you could at least edited your post, the parts where you attack me and say I'm putting words in your mouth. I'm not the one who's being aggressive and twisting others people's words. Its funny because you accuse me with things you basically do. Next time, please read more carefully before you hurry to reply with unnecessary attacks which are irrelevant to what I wrote to you.

If I choose to focus more about Israel, its my choice and I have my own reasons. How am I brainwashed exactly? because I dare to say you are wrong? sure there are things that should be changed and again, Israel is far from being perfect, I'm not ashamed to admit it but overall I feel that most things regarding Israel are simply blown out of proportion.

The UN is Israel&#8217;s ally? HA! Please don&#8217;t make me laugh! The U.N is an ally of the Arab/Muslim countries, China & Russia. That&#8217;s a fact and again the reason is oil. Israel doesn&#8217;t have oil. Yep, the UN is a big joke, indeed. And if you seriously compare countries like Libya & Iran to Israel then I don&#8217;t have what to add. This argument would be pointless.

Btw, I agree with most of the things you said about the crimes of the US and UK but what about countries like Turkey who commits crimes against humanity, killing 1.5 million Armenians and denying the genocide till this day! They should pay them reparations. They committed a genocide against Greeks and Assyrians as well. And what about the Kurds? They ethnically cleansed 1 million Kurds and they are waging cultural genocide against them. Banning political Kurdish parties, Kurdish language and culture. Israel doesn&#8217;t even do that against Arabs (as you can see in my first post about Arabs in Israel). And yet, the Turks dare to criticize Israel. The Turks also invaded Cyprus in 1974 and forced 140,000 Greeks Cypriot to leave their homes, they continue till this day to occupy northern Cyprus. Has the world even dare to criticize them? And force them to pay for their crimes? And Turkey is not the only one of course, you have Russia who committed even bigger crimes and China. Yet no one dares to say a word. Yes, at least the Germans paid reparations, while other nations deny their crimes against others. Do you see why I am calling others hypocrites? mainly the world&#8217;s leaders. Israel is an easy target. All the nations who criticize Israel have bloody history themselves, full with sins and crimes. That&#8217;s to me the biggest hypocrisy ever and its disgusting and unfair. What about other occupied territories all over the world by other nations? While Israel won these territories fairly in wars that the Arabs started themselves against Israel, other nations occupy for no justified reason. And if they won them in wars too, do they give the lands back? Like Israel did with Gaza and Sinai and others? and Israel is willing to give more for peace but that's a problem when you don't have a partner on the other side.

The stigmatization of Jews for the actions of a government is also as deplorable as the stigmatization of Arabs for the actions of a government or a terrorist organization. I think we've discussed at large just how useless the U.N. truly is, with you citing that you agreed, so what good are all these "resolutions" against Israel, and what good would any "resolutions" against countries like Libya be? They've done nothing to prevent powerful countries like the US and the UK from supporting Israel and its crimes against Gaza, and they even had Libya on the Human Rights Council! I think the UN has proven itself to be time and time again a joke--starting with the fact that the main countries who run/sponsor it are the biggest criminals of them all! (Their headquarters are in New York, U.S.A.)

You can say that the US is Israel's ally but they also sponsoring terrorists. You should see where the taxes are going. eventually it hurts us and the whole west. The reason is oil again. Israel is also stupid for giving weapons to Fatah who use them to kill us and for Iran pre- 1979 (when the shah was in power).

Like I've said time and time again, I put the blame on these countries' governments and not its people. Blaming the Jews or Israeli citizens for what Israel's government does would be as illogical as blaming American citizens for the war of terror against Iraq. The average folk have no power to stop what the government decides to do in the end, and it is those who do have the power (i.e. government and its officials) whom I am criticizing. Not the people.

There is a &#8216;slight&#8217; difference between the US, UK and Israel. In Israel, everyone who reaches age 18, must join the army. That&#8217;s the difference. In the US and most countries in the world, you have the choice whether to join the army or not, that's not the case in Israel and that&#8217;s because Israel is in danger on a daily basis. In the end of the day it&#8217;s the government who gives the orders. true.

The fact remains that Israel remains unwilling to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, along with India and Pakistan. Those are the only three countries in the world who have refused to sign it altogether. If these weapons are just for self-defence, then why not sign the treaty? That's something I don't get. Your post is ignorant, since you have yet to address why the Israeli government has refused to sign this treaty: http://news.antiwar.com/2010/09/21/israel-rules-out-signing-nuclear-non-proliferation-treaty/

Moreover, if they're not likely to ever use them in any case, why not sign the treaty? It's just a treaty, and it's basically harmless.

This is irrelevant. Send a letter to the Israeli government and ask them if you are so eager to know.

No, actually, it's quite the opposite. The hypocrisy is their obsession with crimes against humanity committed by other countries, and ignoring those committed by the likes of Israel,the US and the UK. It's obvious you're a biased party since you daresay others commit "real" crimes against humanity. So, in your opinion, the massacre in Gaza is not a real crime against humanity? Like I said, my main targets were the biggest superpowers of the world. Israel only comes about because it gets their support while itself committing crimes against humanity in its occupied territories. The larger party to blame, from my perspective, would be the US.

&#8216;The massacre in Gaza?&#8217; I blame Hamas for that. They are the ones who use their people as human shields, they are the ones who kill their own people, Israel warns civilians to leave their homes before attacking, hamas convinces them to stay, they hide weapons in schools, mosques, hospitals. No wonder innocent civilians killed! Who kidnapped an Israeli soldier 5 years ago and lunch lots of rockets that injured and killed Israeli citizens? Israel didn&#8217;t commit crimes against humanity in Gaza, no, its Hamas. when Hamas and Fatah killed each other brutally, no one said a word. When Hamas harasses Palestinian Christians no one cares. To me, that&#8217;s hypocrisy. Who elected Hamas &#8216;democrately?&#8217;..yep, that's right.
I&#8217;m not biased at all, I&#8217;m realistic.

P.S. @ Sophielo: I have yet to witness anyone actually calling anyone else a Nazi.
With that said, neither I nor anyone else can help how others choose to twist and take statements.

Yes you did and Elusive Moonwalker as well, I don't twist anyone's words. You and anyone else can read it between the lines.

 

[Severus Snape]

Again, my first reply wasn't aimed at you so you could at least edited your post, the parts where you attack me and say I'm putting words in your mouth. I'm not the one who's being aggressive and twisting others people's words. Its funny because you accuse me with things you basically do. Next time, please read more carefully before you hurry to reply with unnecessary attacks which are irrelevant to what I wrote to you.

If I choose to focus more about Israel, its my choice and I have my own reasons. How am I brainwashed exactly? because I dare to say you are wrong? sure there are things that should be changed and again, Israel is far from being perfect, I'm not ashamed to admit it but overall I feel that most things regarding Israel are simply blown out of proportion.

The UN is Israel&#8217;s ally? HA! Please don&#8217;t make me laugh! The U.N is an ally of the Arab/Muslim countries, China & Russia. That&#8217;s a fact and again the reason is oil. Israel doesn&#8217;t have oil. Yep, the UN is a big joke, indeed. And if you seriously compare countries like Libya & Iran to Israel then I don&#8217;t have what to add. This argument would be pointless.

I said the U.S. was, as in, the United States. Moreover, I'm not comparing Israel to Libya or Iran--I'm comparing attitudes towards Libya and Iran, who violate human rights, and Israel, who also happens to do so. Perhaps not to the same degree as the former two, but violations nonetheless. Moreover, this still doesn't explain why they haven't signed the non-proliferation treaty, if even Iran signed it... but you are right in saying the UN is a big joke. I don't think anything Israel does is blown out of proportion--quite the contrary. Especially in the American media, the crimes which occur in Gaza on Israel's part are completely glossed over, and for that matter, the crimes their own country has perpetrated against numerous peoples of the world.

Btw, I agree with most of the things you said about the crimes of the US and UK but what about countries like Turkey who commits crimes against humanity, killing 1.5 million Armenians and denying the genocide till this day! They should pay them reparations. They committed a genocide against Greeks and Assyrians as well. And what about the Kurds? They ethnically cleansed 1 million Kurds and they are waging cultural genocide against them. Banning political Kurdish parties, Kurdish language and culture. Israel doesn&#8217;t even do that against Arabs (as you can see in my first post about Arabs in Israel). And yet, the Turks dare to criticize Israel. The Turks also invaded Cyprus in 1974 and forced 140,000 Greeks Cypriot to leave their homes, they continue till this day to occupy northern Cyprus. Has the world even dare to criticize them? And force them to pay for their crimes? And Turkey is not the only one of course, you have Russia who committed even bigger crimes and China. Yet no one dares to say a word. Yes, at least the Germans paid reparations, while other nations deny their crimes against others. Do you see why I am calling others hypocrites? mainly the world&#8217;s leaders. Israel is an easy target. All the nations who criticize Israel have bloody history themselves, full with sins and crimes. That&#8217;s to me the biggest hypocrisy ever and its disgusting and unfair. What about other occupied territories all over the world by other nations? While Israel won these territories fairly in wars that the Arabs started themselves against Israel, other nations occupy for no justified reason. And if they won them in wars too, do they give the lands back? Like Israel did with Gaza and Sinai and others? and Israel is willing to give more for peace but that's a problem when you don't have a partner on the other side.

Yes, I do know about the Armenian Holocaust which occurred during the decline of the Ottoman Empire, and it does not get the attention it rightfully should--and they should pay reparations to those people.This is something more-or-less (and unfortunately) forgotten in history--the Turks don't have to bear the same stigma the Germans do, for example. In any case, I didn't name Turkey because it isn't a superpower, and the US and the UK are, and they both claim to be for human rights, yet support a country which is in violation of these in its territories, and are themselves among the largest perpetrators of war and destruction, historically and in present.

Moreover, Israel was formed in 1948 because the British, who themselves oppressed the Palestinians, handed part of it over to them as a way to make amends for the Holocaust. They did this without any regard to the peoples who were already there, therefore, one could see why the Palestinians would be angered at these newcomers. It was already a slap in the face to be occupied by the British for as long as they were, and on top of that there's another group of people coming to inhabit. It seems unfair, in a way, given that these people had been there for a rather long time, and now they have to move over for foreign people--which is what led to the Arab-Israeli wars which I am sure you are familiar with.

It seems that, Israel put aside, you and I are actually more-or-less on the same page regarding world power hypocrisy and the uselessness of the UN.

It is true that countries like Turkey have no right to be criticizing Israel, but by the same token, Israel has little justification in lauding itself as a progressive country when they treat Palestinians unequally. Although it's all rather florid in paper, it has been noted that there is discrimination against Palestinians, such as discrimination against Palestinian children in schools by the Human Rights Watch, etc. (2001) on top of things like the Gaza massacre, which we have already gone over, so it would seem that they are in no position to judge either.

You can say that the US is Israel's ally but they also sponsoring terrorists. You should see where the taxes are going. eventually it hurts us and the whole west. The reason is oil again. Israel is also stupid for giving weapons to Fatah who use them to kill us and for Iran pre- 1979 (when the shah was in power).

Of course they are. Who was the US best buddy during the time when they were against the USSR? Osama Bin Laden. It's all corrupt, it's all for oil, it's all so transparent.

There is a &#8216;slight&#8217; difference between the US, UK and Israel. In Israel, everyone who reaches age 18, must join the army. That&#8217;s the difference. In the US and most countries in the world, you have the choice whether to join the army or not, that's not the case in Israel and that&#8217;s because Israel is in danger on a daily basis. In the end of the day it&#8217;s the government who gives the orders. true.

Military service is compulsory for Israelis who reach the age of 18, however, it is not compulsory for Palestinians. It is also noteworthy that those who perform military service are granted more government benefits than those who do not, so therefore, this is already skewed to put the Palestinians at a disadvantage. Regarding the US, given their way, the Republicans would happily usher the draft back in.

This is irrelevant. Send a letter to the Israeli government and ask them if you are so eager to know.

It is not irrelevant. It is the only first-world country to refuse to sign a treaty which serves to monitor the development of nuclear weapons. Why? Especially if the only purpose is self-defence. It's a good question to ask.

&#8216;The massacre in Gaza?&#8217; I blame Hamas for that. They are the ones who use their people as human shields, they are the ones who kill their own people, Israel warns civilians to leave their homes before attacking, hamas convinces them to stay, they hide weapons in schools, mosques, hospitals. No wonder innocent civilians killed! Who kidnapped an Israeli soldier 5 years ago and lunch lots of rockets that injured and killed Israeli citizens? Israel didn&#8217;t commit crimes against humanity in Gaza, no, its Hamas. when Hamas and Fatah killed each other brutally, no one said a word. When Hamas harasses Palestinian Christians no one cares. To me, that&#8217;s hypocrisy. Who elected Hamas &#8216;democrately?&#8217;..yep, that's right.

Not according to the article I cited, in which the Israeli military were the ones using Palestinian kids as human shields. This came from the Huffington Post, and not some obscure pro-Palestine newsmagazine, so it is credible.

"The accusations came in reports to the U.N. Human Rights Council which also called for an urgent end to Israeli restrictions on humanitarian supplies to Gaza and a full international investigation into the conflict.

"Investigators reporting to the United Nations Human Rights Council Monday enumerated a number of human rights violations committed by Israel during its Gaza incursion, including the specific targeting of occupied civilian homes and the use of children as human shields. Civilian targets, particularly homes and their occupants, appear to have taken the brunt of the attacks, but schools and medical facilities have also been hit," said one report by Radhika Coomaraswamy, the U.N. Secretary-General's Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/23/israel-committed-human-ri_n_178159.html (again)

That wouldn't seem like Hamas, despite this group's violations as well. If they warned them to leave, like you said, why are Israeli soldiers using children as human shields and targeting homes? That certainly doesn't seem very nice.

I&#8217;m not biased at all, I&#8217;m realistic.

Not given the counterexamples I have provided. The truth is always found somewhere in between.

Yes you did and Elusive Moonwalker as well, I don't twist anyone's words. You and anyone else can read it between the lines.

No. All I did was point out the irony in certain attitudes, not only regarding Israel, but also the United States and the United Kingdom, and cite my own confusion at how the world can condemn certain crimes and turn a blind eye to others, that's all. You certainly did make numerous assumptions, among them that I don't care about the lives of innocent children and other dramatic statements with no substance behind them.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

It's sad, I feel sorry for all the people who are innocent :yes:

 

[MechaJackson]

The innocents will suffer the most from this.

So much for the UN being for peace.

Statism is evil.

 

[Severus Snape]

^As is sadly always the case.

It'll be interesting to see how they justify this human massacre, that will no doubt happen, as a result of this war. I'm so glad Germany chose not to be a part of it. It seems to be one of the only countries who actually possesses reason in modern times.

 

[LoveMJackson]

Yes, I do know about the Armenian Holocaust which occurred during the decline of the Ottoman Empire, and it does not get the attention it rightfully should--and they should pay reparations to those people.This is something more-or-less (and unfortunately) forgotten in history--the Turks don't have to bear the same stigma the Germans do, for example. In any case, I didn't name Turkey because it isn't a superpower, and the US and the UK are, and they both claim to be for human rights, yet support a country which is in violation of these in its territories, and are themselves among the largest perpetrators of war and destruction, historically and in present.

Moreover, Israel was formed in 1948 because the British, who themselves oppressed the Palestinians, handed part of it over to them as a way to make amends for the Holocaust. They did this without any regard to the peoples who were already there, therefore, one could see why the Palestinians would be angered at these newcomers. It was already a slap in the face to be occupied by the British for as long as they were, and on top of that there's another group of people coming to inhabit. It seems unfair, in a way, given that these people had been there for a rather long time, and now they have to move over for foreign people--which is what led to the Arab-Israeli wars which I am sure you are familiar with.

It seems that, Israel put aside, you and I are actually more-or-less on the same page regarding world power hypocrisy and the uselessness of the UN.

It is true that countries like Turkey have no right to be criticizing Israel, but by the same token, Israel has little justification in lauding itself as a progressive country when they treat Palestinians unequally. Although it's all rather florid in paper, it has been noted that there is discrimination against Palestinians, such as discrimination against Palestinian children in schools by the Human Rights Watch, etc. (2001) on top of things like the Gaza massacre, which we have already gone over, so it would seem that they are in no position to judge either.

I think that's a shame. Denying the Armenian genocide is the same like denying the holocaust. Hitler even said before the holocaust: “who still remember the Armenian Genocide nowadays? “. anyway, my point with Turkey was just to show the hypocrisy & double standards of other nations in the world..when Israel looks like an angel next to them. from western countries, the UK seems like the most hypocrite one with its attitude towards Israel.

Well, the Arabs refused to accept the UN plan for 2 states, one Arab and one Jewish, in 1947. They wanted the whole state and preferred to start a war and “drive the Jews into the sea”, in their own words, they failed as we all know. There were Jews here before 1948 too and the terrorism against Jews started before Israel was even created, for example, 1929 Massacres (which the British didn’t care about in the start, only when they felt threatened by the Arabs they did something), 1920 Massacre and more. By the way, one of the Arab leaders who led these violent riots against Jews was Haj Amin al-Husseini who later became a friend of Hitler and helped the Nazis! He created his Muslim SS division.
Israel recognizes the right of the Palestinians to have a state, the Palestinians, however and many other Muslims and Arabs DO NOT recognize the right of Israel to exist. And that is the main problem.
Has anyone even cared that 1 million Jews were expelled from Arab/ Muslim countries? they left with nothing. Their houses and property were stolen. but the only victims are the Palestinians, right? in Iraq, for example, there was a pogrom against Iraqi Jews (during world war 2, another collaboration with the nazis). These Jews did nothing to hurt their neighbors so why? there are many stories that everyone seems to ignore..that's sad and unfair.

Yes, we seem to agree about the U.N.

The Israeli army does not use kids as human shields. Of course in every war there are mistakes, its not a game, war is a bad thing. The israeli army does not train you this barbaric tactic..that's more 'appropriate' for terrorist groups, such as Hamas who openly admits it, Hezbollah- "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are&#65279; going to win, because they love life and we love death." -Nasralla

Military service is compulsory for Israelis who reach the age of 18, however, it is not compulsory for Palestinians. It is also noteworthy that those who perform military service are granted more government benefits than those who do not, so therefore, this is already skewed to put the Palestinians at a disadvantage. Regarding the US, given their way, the Republicans would happily usher the draft back in.

Do you mean the Palestinians=Arabs in Israel or those who live in Gaza & the west bank? there are Arabs in the Israeli army as well. As a matter of fact, my commander was an Arab. And they are getting benefits, just like everyone else..its not that much btw.

Not according to the article I cited, in which the Israeli military were the ones using Palestinian kids as human shields. This came from the Huffington Post, and not some obscure pro-Palestine newsmagazine, so it is credible.

"The accusations came in reports to the U.N. Human Rights Council which also called for an urgent end to Israeli restrictions on humanitarian supplies to Gaza and a full international investigation into the conflict.

"Investigators reporting to the United Nations Human Rights Council Monday enumerated a number of human rights violations committed by Israel during its Gaza incursion, including the specific targeting of occupied civilian homes and the use of children as human shields. Civilian targets, particularly homes and their occupants, appear to have taken the brunt of the attacks, but schools and medical facilities have also been hit," said one report by Radhika Coomaraswamy, the U.N. Secretary-General's Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/23/israel-committed-human-ri_n_178159.html (again)

That wouldn't seem like Hamas, despite this group's violations as well. If they warned them to leave, like you said, why are Israeli soldiers using children as human shields and targeting homes? That certainly doesn't seem very nice.

As I said before, this is not the value of the Israeli army. I read this article, I'm familiar with this. Yep, the UN again..and Libya was in the Human Rights Council. They also said that Hamas was not using kids as human shields..really credible. Of course soldiers make mistakes and wrong decision, no one is perfect, but you cant blame the whole army for this.

----------------
And the war in Libya, who asked these countries to interfere and to stick their noses in Libya's business? no one asked them. Its not for self defence or that they care about the Libyan people.
100 protesters killed in Syria, I don't see that anyone cares..

 

[Severus Snape]

^Well, it seems we agree in some things, and the rest--I'll just leave as is, out of fear of going ad infinitum with it. There have been mistakes made by all countries, it seems, hardly anyone is left without blood on their hands, but that's the way things will always be I reckon.

In any case, anyone else with further developments into any news stories with Libya or anything tying in to that can post.

This thread, to be honest, has made me very depressed, so I probably won't be coming back. In regards to the events and news, the international hypocrisy is rampant, especially among superpowers, and I know it's not the best action but for right now it's the healthiest action--and that is, I am going to retreat and only passively follow the going-ons in Libya in regards to UN and U.S./French/ etc. involvement.

 

[riviera1992]

MIDDLE EAST, THE REST OF THE STORY
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/163630

 

[elusive moonwalker]

So now the west wants to go after gaddafi and his son for crimes against humanity.what a bunch of hypocrites.funny how they didnt bother when blair and co were sucking upto him and universities in the uk were taking money from his son

 

[Alma]

So now the west wants to go after gaddafi and his son for crimes against humanity.what a bunch of hypocrites.funny how they didnt bother when blair and co were sucking upto him and universities in the uk were taking money from his son

... So typical of them. ...Sucking up 2 u, then sucking like leeches, all for their own profits and interests.

*sigh*

 

[elusive moonwalker]

And the west wonders why theres so much hatred towards them and the terrrorism that follows.they caused most of it

 

[Alma]

Precisely....

 

[Krshna28]

And the west wonders why theres so much hatred towards them and the terrrorism that follows.they caused most of it

Exactly.............

But to the west............terrorism is business.............

And I'd like to know how much money they make from selling weapons to almost every nation???

The Libyan rebels might think that the US are helping them............but once the fighting is done, the US will want full payment for their services and weapons (plus interest).............that's when Libya will be reduced to poverty.............

..........even the us Brits have had to pay the US for their "help" during WW2!!!!!