Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[passy001]

Jackson dedicated Dancing the Dream "with love" to his mother Katherine, and has an introduction written by his longtime friend Elizabeth Taylor.

“I wrote a book called Dancing The Dream. It was more autobiographical than Moonwalk, which I did with Mrs. Onassis. It wasn’t full of gossip and scandal and all that trash that people write, so I don’t think people paid much attention to it, but it came from my heart. It was essays, thoughts and things that I’ve thought about while on tour.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_the_Dream

Mother

Eons of time I've been gestating
To take a form been hesitating
From the unmanifest this cosmic conception
On this earth a fantastic reception
And then one fateful August morn
From your being I was born
With tender love you nurtured a seed
To your own distress you paid no heed
Unmindful of any risk and danger
You decided upon this lonely stranger

Rainbows, clouds, the deep blue sky
Glittering birds that fly on high
Out of fragments you've made my whole
From the elements you fashioned my soul
Mother dear, you gave me life
Because of you, no struggle or strife
You gave me joy and position
Cared for me without condition
And if I ever change this world
It's from the emotions you've unfurl'd
Your compassion is so sweet and dear
Your finest feelings I can hear
I can sense your faintest notion
The wondrous magic of your love potion

And now that I have come so far
Met with every king and czar
Encountered every color and creed
Of every passion, every greed
I go back to that starry night
With not a fear for muscle or might
You taught me how to stand and fight
For every single wrong and right
Every day without a hold
I will treasure what you've mold
I will remember every kiss
Your sweet words I'll never miss
No matter where I go from here
You're in my heart, my mother dear.

What has his mother done for him in return? She can't even look after his children.

 

[jamba]

Here is another quote from DTD--on the subject of Courage:

MJ talks about the Cowardly Lion in The Wiz and says, although he was afraid, "But he was also sharing his true feelings with those he loved, even though he didn't always like those feelings." He says that while the typical hero is a fighter defeating an enemy, it can take "much more courage to express true feelings to one person." "When you have the courage to be intimate, you know who you are and you're willing to let others see that." "In spite of the risks, the courage to be honest and intimate opens the way to self-discovery. It offers what we all want, the promise of love."

This is important b/c it shows that MJ believed in honesty and authenticity and saying what's in your heart--communicating feelings. This as we know, from what LaToya said, is not the way he was raised. So he learned that and lived by it--communicating to the world that he didn't have a childhood, what the cost of that was, and that his father beat him during rehearsals, and so forth.

Here's some of his statements, some made public and others private:

In a book depicting children that was found in the Neverland search by prosecutors, MJ wrote:

“Look at the true spirit of happiness and joy in these boys’ faces. This is the spirit of boyhood, a life I never had and will always dream of. This is the life I want for my children, MJ.”

In the song Childhood, on HIStory, he sings about "The painful youth I've had."

When accepting the Grammy Legend Award he said,

“My childhood was completely taken away from me. There was no Christmas. There was no birthdays. It was not a normal childhood. No normal pleasures of childhood. Those were exchanged for hard work, struggle, and pain, and eventual material and professional success. But as an awful price, I cannot recreate that part of my life.” (1993)

OK, so this is well known and well documented and something he not only talked about personally but that he linked to worldwide problems b/c many children suffer the way he did:

“We have to heal our wounded world. The chaos, despair, and senseless destruction we see today are a result of the alienation that people feel from each other and their environment. Often this alienation has its roots in an emotionally deprived childhood. Children have had their childhood stolen from them." (Grammy Legends)

In thinking about who is responsible for this sitution in his personal life, I see this as similar to the % of responsibility that the jurors were to decide if they got that far. Panish suggested 20% MJ and 80% AEG. So looking at MJ's parents--what is the percentage of responsibility for what happened to him, starting at age 5? Of course, MJ did not 'blame' his mother--who else was there for him in that family? Yet we who are not directly involved can see that there has to be responsibility shared between the 2 parents for MJ's "painful youth."

Re T Mez--he really needs to stop this IMO b/c he is deflecting from what MJ's primary concern was--his children, and instead the focus is on this trial and now it looks like there are going to be appeals on every single thing the judge did--how she dismissed certain charges and how the jury questions were set up. Why doesn't Panish take some responsibility for 5 months of meandering around instead of a tight focus on the negligent hiring issue?

I see TMez in some ways similar to KJ. He did a good thing--a very good thing--he defended MJ well in 05, but then he goes on to make mistakes re Sullivan and encouraging this civil suit. Same way with KJ, she was MJ's supportive parent when he was a child--and he had no one else--but she then made bad decisions.

 

[krikzil]

thomas mesereau interview from october 3rd

[youtube]tUlCQMoTPk8[/youtube]

I have a great deal of respect for TMez, both for the MJ trial and all the work he's done and continues to do for the community and DP cases. That said, this interview just shows me he's seeing things emotionally as a family friend rather than at a rational distance as a lawyer. It's one thing to disagree with a verdict but dismissing the jury in such a manner is inappropriate to me. Reminiscent of how his own jury came under fire for finding MJ not guilty by folks who weren't in the courtroom day in and day out listening to all of the evidence but rather just one particular narrative.

 

[krikzil]

According to Panish's BHL interview, the plaintiffs fought against the wording of question two and the judge chose the phrasing which leaned towards the time of hire.

Panish also said the jurors wanted to ask questions during deliberations however, they did not.

Wasn't that question submitted by Plantiffs?

As for the jury, did someone actually prevent them from doing so? If not, it's irrelevant.

------
No surprise there will be an appeal. I expected one no matter which side prevailed at Trial. While I personally feel the verdict was correct, I wouldn't have been torqued if it had gone the other way. Neither side had moral superiority to me; it was ALL about $$$$. However, I do wish it would just stop now, not for me, but because I think the cost is too high for Michael's children. The ONLY people I care about in this scenario. They have enough money thanks to their Dad and the Estate; they need peace and the space to move on.

 

[Tygger]

The thread has been derailed with some posters' perception of the relationship between Katherine and her son Michael. It seemed logical in my view to post Michael's perception as he experienced the relationship.

I previously said no parent would want to be in Katherine's position; it is unenviable. She receives my compassion.

Wasn't that question submitted by Plantiffs?

As for the jury, did someone actually prevent them from doing so? If not, it's irrelevant.

It is not logical that Panish would combat against a question his team worded. The relevance of the jurors having questions during deliberations and not asking those questions is being discovered during the plaintiffs' investigation. The results of the investigation would help the plaintiffs decide if they will pursue an appeal or not.

 

[Victory22]

Bubs,

once again you hit the nail on the head. I've been saying the same thing for years... what did Katherine ever do for MJ? since he was 5 years old he was supporting the family so she took care of him from infant to 5 years old.. From then on he was a commodity and an ATM machine for the family. She has never said one thing she did for him.. it was always about what he could do for her . Her son was having cash flow issues, yet she wanted a $600,000.00 RV for what??? where does she go that she needs a Motor home? and like you said when MJ was sick and having tons of surgeries for his scalp who was there with him? not Katherine but Debbie Rowe and Karen Faye and whoever else holding his hand through these painful procedures.. she was no where to be found..

It should also be notes that it was Elizabeth Taylor not Katherine Jackson who came to Mexico when she heard Michael was in danger of dying from his drug addiction while on tour. It is also note worthy that Elizabeth didn't have to force Michael into treatment. All she did was show him L.O.V.E! Janet told Oprah when asked about why the family didn't get him help "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Well, darn it maybe if the Jackson's had stopped treating Michael like a horse good for nothing more than work and more like a full family member, brother and son they wouldn't have had to make him do anything. They could have gotten him to seek the help he needed by showing him they cared!

 

[Victory22]

If you don't like word cold as ice, I'm willing to change it to cold and calculative.
What do you call a woman who was trusted by her beloved son in his last will and testament to take care of his kids in case of his passing, and then this woman goes on and sell those kids to porn producer?

Don't think photos with Prince is going to work as there are tons of photos KJ with Michael too.
I'm sorry to say, while Joe physically abused Michael, Katherine "I don't like to hear bad news" Jackson participated to it by doing nothing to stop him, and then she mentally abused Michael herself by emotionally blackmailing him to do things he didn't want to do.

Here is the link to KJ teatimony, post 55:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-AEG-Live-Daily-Trial-Testimony-Summary/page4
Show me a part, any part of her testimony where she testified she did something for Michael? Her testimony is full what Michael did to her and how Michael gave her anything she wanted, how it hurts her that Michael is called lazy etc....
Show me the bit where she said what she did anything to him? If you don't find anything from her trial testimony, please be free to check her interviews with Oprah and others, and most recent;y Hello magazine. You ain't going to find anything from those either. Seemingly Michael only exists when she needed something or someone to take care of her. She is Michael's mother, not the other way round.

Btw, it is quite usual that if child have two abusive parents, (abusive can mean psychological or physical) abused child turns to the parent that hurts less, and doesn't realise the different type of abuse him/her receives from less abusive parent.

I love this post because it's totally TRUE!!! Michael spent his entire life trying to find the love he never got from his parents. He turned to Diana Ross, Elizabeth Taylor, and many others trying to find it. It makes me so sad and angry for him.

 

[krikzil]

It is not logical that Panish would combat against a question his team worded.

Not accurate?

Katherine Jackson / Plaintiff's proposed verdict form

1. Was Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 2. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

The relevance of the jurors having questions during deliberations and not asking those questions is being discovered during the plaintiffs' investigation. The results of the investigation would help the plaintiffs decide if they will pursue an appeal or not.

I expect an appeal no matter what jurors told them. Whatever questions jurors had and thoughts they shared with Plaintiffs would be useful should they get a chance for a retrial down the line. I'm just saying "having questions and not asking" aren't grounds to appeal unless some misconduct literally prevented them from asking.

 

[Mneme]

Eons of time I've been gestating
To take a form been hesitating
From the unmanifest this cosmic conception
On this earth a fantastic reception

another thing:

The lines above, his lyrik "I am the particle, I am the wave..", some paintings by Livingstone Strong with Michael in different poses on them.... all this shows that between 90-93 Michael was very interested on spiritualism / esoteric /religions (buddism,...), he was in connection with Deepak Choprah... with one word:
his mind was full with thoughts about "from where do I come / where I will go to / what is the sense of life etc.
And btw. in this phase he created the foundation 'Heal The World'; the songs 'Will you be there', 'Keep the faith' and even 'Black or White'that all for me is expression of his mental mind in those years.

I think Michael until to his dead kept on thinking about this.... one could say: twig of philosophy.

I guess Michael has had a very concret consciousness about "cycle of nature" and that he is a part from the nature.

AND NEVERTHELESS (OR MAYBE BETTER:THEREFORE) TODAY MICHAEL IS RESTING IN A MAUSOLEUM WITHOUT EARTH; WITHOUT NATURE; WITHOUT CYCLE

Do you want say me 'his mother doesn't know that her son is convinced of spiritualism"?


(and no! I am not an esoterik fan! But if I think about this mausoleum I every time my heart startet pounding because it is not adäquat for Michael)

 

[Tygger]

Krikzil, it is not logical that Panish would argue with the judge on the wording of a question his team authored.

The investigation is still open. Panish also said in the interview it seemed one or two jurors were biased. The investigation will hopefully answer questions about what role this juror(s) may have played in deliberations.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

thats because the only thing they wanted to lead him to was family concerts. when mj had issues in the 90's and early 00's he delt with it and got help himself. to hard for the family to understand he didnt want them knowing (in 02) because it would have been on the ftont page on the enquirer and no doubt used to blackmail him to help out the family

It should also be notes that it was Elizabeth Taylor not Katherine Jackson who came to Mexico when she heard Michael was in danger of dying from his drug addiction while on tour. It is also note worthy that Elizabeth didn't have to force Michael into treatment. All she did was show him L.O.V.E! Janet told Oprah when asked about why the family didn't get him help "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Well, darn it maybe if the Jackson's had stopped treating Michael like a horse good for nothing more than work and more like a full family member, brother and son they wouldn't have had to make him do anything. They could have gotten him to seek the help he needed by showing him they cared!

 

[Victory22]

Amen to your post Elusive!

 

[Victory22]

Krikzil, it is not logical that Panish would argue with the judge on the wording of a question his team authored.

The investigation is still open. Panish also said in the interview it seemed one or two jurors were biased. The investigation will hopefully answer questions about what role this juror(s) may have played in deliberations.

Biased by what for God sake! THE TRUTH! I am so sick of this BS!

 

[jamba]

At some point, MJ figured out that his mother was always going to have at the forefront of her concerns the needs of all her children and the family as a whole, and that meant he could not count her on his side to do what was needed for him. She was on a different team. He always loved her and had regard for her as the one loving parent in the household but over the years he saw her limitations and how he couldn't count on her to put his needs first. She was not really there for him--she was there for this entity called "the Jacksons" and she would never repudiate the violence of Joe or divorce Joe. I am sure she was not happy when MJ started exposing the family secrets, esp. that he was abused and beaten. When he started talking about his pain openly and publicly, he broke a huge family taboo.

I just wish someone would talk her out of an appeal--but as long as she is not paying for it and people around her are pushing for it, fat chance.

 

[jamba]

re the wording of the question re was CM fit and competent, Panish said they wanted the words "at any time" but the judge put "for which he was hired."

 

[marebear]

Michael loved his family. But actions speak louder than words. Michael has a huge family and yet whenever he needed help and to have peace he went to other people and other families than his own. These people know about Michael's life and last few years than the Jacksons. You can't help wonder why that was.

His will says it all too. He wanted his children taken care of and the only person in his family in the will was his mom. Even with that her percentage goes right back to his children when she dies. She can't give it away to anyone in the family. People question his will but to me leaving everything to his kids and charity makes total sense to me.

Katherine loved Michael because the pain in her face to me is real. Like others have said she puts the needs of the whole family first. That's the way it seems. Whatever is Michael's is theirs too. That's the way it looks. At 83 I don't think you can change. She even said herself she doesn't want to talk about "bad" things or know about it. I don't know Katherine but Michael did and I think he tried to make her happy.

 

[marebear]

I have faith in Michael's kids. I feel his influence on them is strong and they will find happiness in their lives on their terms like Michael wanted for them. He spent time with them, talked with them and taught them. They have a better advantage I feel than Michael had.

 

[krikzil]

re the wording of the question re was CM fit and competent, Panish said they wanted the words "at any time" but the judge put "for which he was hired."

Doesn't what I quoted above from "Plaintiffs Proposed Verdict Form" include that very language, not what Panish is now saying he wanted?

Krikzil, it is not logical that Panish would argue with the judge on the wording of a question his team authored.

No, it's not logical hence why I'm seeking clarification.

The investigation is still open. Panish also said in the interview it seemed one or two jurors were biased. The investigation will hopefully answer questions about what role this juror(s) may have played in deliberations.

No surprise he thinks there was bias. He lost.

 

[jaydom7]

Panish and his team agreed with the wording of that sentence. Why didn't they complain then? we said it all along that the question was stupid because what Murray did was not what he was hired for.. Murray was hired for general medical care for MJ and his children not being an anesthesiologist which is a specialized field.

 

[serendipity]

The second question was in the plaintiffs proposed verdict form. And Jurror#27 said they did consider other times too, not just the time of hiring. IMO the problem was not so much the time, but "what he was hired for". The jury still answered with a no.

Besides, the third question wouldn't have gone the plaintiffs' way either.

They need to let it go and stop wasting MJ's money and let those kids have some peace.

 

[jaydom7]

The second question was in the plaintiffs proposed verdict form. And Jurror#27 said they did consider other times too, not just the time of hiring. IMO the problem was not so much the time, but "what he was hired for". The jury still answered with a no.

Besides, the third question wouldn't have gone the plaintiffs' way either.

They need to let it go and stop wasting MJ's money and let those kids have some peace.

True.. let it go is right.. I really wish Katherine would've been this diligent in finding out MJ's issues and getting him the help he needed..

 

[Member Service]

Thread cleaned: Please keep this thread on topic. Do not turn this thread into your personal Katherine/Jackson bashing thread. As we posted before keep discussions in here about the Jackson's related to the trial or appeal process. While you are welcome to have an opinion on the Jackson's, you are well aware that "mean spirited hateful posts for no other reason than to bash" are against MJJC Policy. Some of you are posting the same thing over and over and over. It's becoming redundant, making transparent the purpose of doing that. Any posts of that nature will be deleted as well as the replies to deleted posts.

Try discussing the facts or issues without adding your personal mean spirited "speculative" opinions about Katherine Jackson's character. No one is stating there are not issues or concerns with katherine or the Jackson's but if you wish to discuss them do it in a respectful manner and not for the sole purpose to bash or make up your own negative, speculative reasons for her actions. Much of what is being discussed isn't even related and should be taken to the Jackson's 2300 forum or take it to the tabloid section in this forum.

Thank you for your cooperation and as always if you have any questions or concerns PM Admin and do not derail the thread by replying or discussing moderation requests on the board.

 

[Allusio]

Did he ask AEG directly or was he just complaining at home? This "more time" stuff should have been figured out BEFORE the contract was signed IMO. Another very important thing that SHOULD have been done before signing contract, was to make sure he wouldn't be doing more than one show a week! This should have been the #1 clause in his contract and should have been established before he signed it.

Not sign the contract and THEN start complaining about the shows being too close. He knew himself better than anyone and his insomnia issues - this should've been sorted out before he signed anything. He should've gotten a better lawyer and not rely on Thome's lawyer.



Completely agree! The fact that they are showing so much more hate for AEG and Estate than they've ever shown Murray is very telling about what they care the most!

Yes, he made a mistake. But was it that he had to pay with his life for it.

In any, ANY situation with ANY singer something may go wrong along the way!

And as far as I remember Michael called Randy about “more time”, he did state it to AEG – but they refused !!!

His biggest mistakes were trials to do the best he could and trust Murray.

He should have done this or that, AEG should have listened to him !!!

 

[Big Apple2]

Well I truly can not say that I'm surprised by this verdict. In my opinion, Mother's lawsuit was frivolous and without merit right from the gate. Just my personal, "on the outside, looking in," opinion, nothing more.

The one thing that did strike me was the fact that after a FIVE MONTH trial, testimony from experts, family, friends, doctors, and professional associates, the dang thing was over after the jury answered ONLY two questions. BOOM, it was over!

Mother may have lost her lawsuit, but ONE of her requests was made.

That being that there would be NO restitution from Murray, because Mother wanted to be sure that he would be able to financially support his children. So Mother won that one. I hope she's pleased, I'm SURE Murray is!

 

[serendipity]

Yes, he made a mistake. But was it that he had to pay with his life for it.

In any, ANY situation with ANY singer something may go wrong along the way!

And as far as I remember Michael called Randy about “more time”, he did state it to AEG – but they refused !!!

His biggest mistakes were trials to do the best he could and trust Murray.

He should have done this or that, AEG should have listened to him !!!

Of course he didn't have to pay with his life. That mistake with the propofol I mostly blame Murray for! He should've been the one to say no!

AEG already pushed the shows with a week and we all remember the uproar that ensued from fans and people who have booked hotels and flights and lost their money. IMO they were all between a rock and a hard place.

Besides, I don't really think pushing the shows more would've really solved the problem. Was Murray going to be gone if the shows were pushed more or was going to be back when the shows started? IMO to solve the problem MJ needed a sleep specialist and until he agreed to get one, the problem was likely going to remain.

 

[Allusio]

Besides, I don't really think pushing the shows more would've really solved the problem. Was Murray going to be gone if the shows were pushed more or was going to be back when the shows started? IMO to solve the problem MJ needed a sleep specialist and until he agreed to get one, the problem was likely going to remain.

That is what I’ve said in my previous posts … We do not know that. We do not know if Michael wanted time to find the second person to be near Murray or insomnia hit him to hard this time and he did not know what to do. The man who could answer for sure is gone.

You know looking at what the result is – I would be more than happy if those shows would be canceled AT ALL. If at one point Michael would say “I’m not ready” I would understand and that would be the best way out.

So there were angry fans he cared too much about, AEG far from being perfect contract and Murray the idiot … Maybe Michael was not forced but he did feel obligated, I wish he would think more about himself.

 

[serendipity]

You know looking at what the result is – I would be more than happy if those shows would be canceled AT ALL. If at one point Michael would say “I’m not ready” I would understand and that would be the best way out.

Obviously, but that's after the fact. Looking at the result, I wish he would have never agreed to tour again, period.

 

[Big Apple2]

On a side note:

I wonder what's going on at Mr. Panish's law firm. I'm sure Randy Jackson ain't the only one crying.

I guess if the case hadn't lasted so long that would have been one thing, but this case went on forever. In my opinion, Mother wasn't the only loser, Mr. Panish and his law firm were also losers, because they earned NO money. I guess that also explains why they asked for a settlement - TWICE!

Mr. Panish "probably" bills $550.00-750.00 per hour. I'm guessing that he's a CAPITAL PARTNER and would bill that amount or more. The "Managing" Partner must be pissed!

They played their hand, but AEG's side never blinked!

 

[#MJforever57]

Obviously, but that's after the fact. Looking at the result, I wish he would have never agreed to tour again, period.

I have to agree with you on that 100% and above i wish Michael never agreed either to tour again imo Michael was not ready.

 

[Mneme]

And as far as I remember Michael called Randy about “more time”, he did state it to AEG – but they refused !!!
He should have done this or that, AEG should have listened to him !!!

/Allusio
Michael called Randy Ph. about 'more time'? I never heard from that.
From what I know:
Michael signed his contract with AEG Live on Jan. 26., 2009 and he signed twice (once for The Michael Jackson Company LLC and once for Michael Jackson).
In this conract there is under number 3:
"Artistco hereby pre-approves up’ to thirty one (31) Shows, or such other greater number as agreed by Artistco and Promoter, at the 02 Arena in London, England between July 26’ nd September 30, 2009."

For me it means Michal KNEW about the date for the first show. Therefore I don't understand this 'more time' what Michael's family and some fans always spread.
These were Michael's shows and Michael was the former who had the say. For me it seems something went wrong with the rehearsals und maybe Michael with his concept wasn't ready. He wanted to much in that short time beween announcement (03.05.) and move to London (exactly 4 month). He was missed on the rehearsals because he was in that studio due to the earth film one full week. He had to do his dance exercises at home daily. He had his dates with his voice teacher. He had many years stage absence. ...

Of course the time for rehearsals was too short! But he had signed the contract and in that case one can't say "he should have known" but "he had known".

due to "called Randy Ph.": On Michael's request Frank DiLeo negotiated with Phillips about a postponement for 4 shows at the beginning and putting them on the end. And that was not refused from AEG.
Maybe you mean this?

What do you mean with "He should have done this or that, AEG should have listened to him !!! ?
What did he say to AEG what AEG did not listened?