Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[shelly_webster]

"I find there is something distasteful about these types of cases, where people take advantage of a loophole or technicality to sue for millions."

Maybe, now lawyers will think twice before filing those kind of lawsuits.

 

[Petrarose]

The same court system that MANY people believe is unfair or unreliable. That doesn't mean they are always wrong. Don't many people - -including MJ fans - - believe Casey Anthony and OJ got off? What about Zimmerman.

Does that mean that these people never believe any verdict? I think not. so, I guess they are all hypocrites, as well, then?

It's hypocritical for me to support specific vedicts but also believe that the justice system is nonetheless unreliable and unfair? I'm honestly surprised MJ was acquitted. I never said the system works, anyway! It just did in that instance, by the grace of God.

Something I learned about the phrase "get off" is that individuals need to look at the jury instructions & legal definitions that the jury has to go by. Once I started looking at these verdicts in that way, then I stopped using that phrase. Also, when you go on jury yourself and have to give a verdict, you begin to understand why these verdicts can be so unpredictable. Sometimes everyone feels the person is guilty, but when they get the jury instructions and really see that there is no direct evidence of the person's guilt, they have to vote not guilty. Sometimes the person really is guilty.

I remember I was wondering why Putnam was doing specific things in the case and why certain experts said a particular thing. I was complaining that all that is going to make AEG lose, if Putnam did not stop. Then, Ivy posted the final instructions, and going over them, it really clicked that the evidence was addressing each questions. In case the jury went to all questions, there was evidence to address it. I did not like how AEG staff talked about Michael & I don't like the way they tried their case. However, looking back, I really see that there was a method in the way evidence was presented. However, both sides made mistakes.

I also feel Panish was a good lawyer, but his emphasis on winning by appealing to the emotions was not the best way to go. Now I am thinking he did this because he did not have any facts to back up the instructions that would help him win his case. I felt the firm may have taken on this case because they felt AEG would settle to avoid being shamed in public. The firm took that gamble & unfortunately lost. I feel Panish will be good with cases where they is adequate direct evidence or when companies become scared and do a quick settlement.

 

[marebear]

I hope there is no appeal. Let Michael rest in peace. I always knew that if people actually got to know about Michael that they would like him too. You can't believe tabloids and articles and things people say on the shows. A lot of people did show Michael the person in this trial and that was a good thing. I hope the Jacksons let Michael rest in peace.

 

[Petrarose]

People who think the fact that MJ was called 'the freak" in an email he never saw, or that RP wrote in an email he 'slapped him" and 'yelled at him so hard the walls shook" is enough to find for negligent hiring and supervision are not grounded in reality b/c yelling, slapping, name-calling does not kill anyone and is not an indication that you are going to kill anyone. Also, to me it's clear RP was in a stressed state at the time he made these remarks and was exaggerating--does anyone really believe the 'walls shook"???

^^Great post.

I am dismayed that these reports are saying Michael fans are upset with the verdict as though it is all fans. I feel this "upset" is making people think Michael's fans are illogical. To me such fans lost focus on what the case was about. Some see the issues you posted above^^ are grounds for punishing AEG by making them pay for Michael's death. AEG is seen as forcing sweet little Michael to take on more shows than his poor little body could handle. AEG is also seen as hiring this doctor for Michael, and since the fact that Michael also hired Muarry is not understood or conveniently forgotten, some put all these together and think this is the evidence needed to make AEG pay for Michael's death. As a result, a non liable verdict makes them think the verdict was unjust.

I become concerned when people do not understand how the facts influenced the verdict, because it shows they are not matching the facts with the questions. If they follow the case and can't do this, then when such people tell others that Michael is innocent of the allegations, people will not believe them because they will see the fans as a group that does not understand or accept facts. It is facts from the 05 trial that show Michael was innocent, so how do you try to make people see those facts, when you go on record ignoring facts in this case? That is my main concern about this vocal group that the media is paying attention to. It is not so much that they want the family to win or they hate AEG, but that they are not understanding the role of the facts or lack of it in this case.

Thank goodness we had a level headed new fan speak about the facts & connected it to the questions and verdict--yeah the jury foreman.

 

[Victory22]

It is increasingly alarming to me how many people seem to be losing the ability to analyze facts critically. It’s scary how any illogical theory or conspiracy theory can be thrown up and people will believe it without paying any attention to the facts. Randy and the Jackson's have done a good job of messing with the minds of MJ's fans.

 

[Aquarius]

@Ivy. I just want to thank you for all the time and work you put into this trial. Without you, I would have not be able to understand certain legal aspects. Just wanted to say thank you for your unconditional effort you have put. Also I want to tell you that I admire your patience. Even when you confronted some posters with the facts, these posters tended to twisted just to make them fit their points. I would have given up on them, but you didn't. That's a good trait. My thanks & admiration to you.

 

[Aquarius]

"I find there is something distasteful about these types of cases, where people take advantage of a loophole or technicality to sue for millions."

Maybe, now lawyers will think twice before filing those kind of lawsuits.

That's taking advantage, in a negative way, of the system. Many people do that. Once I was called as a juror for a case. The case was about a woman being hit by a bus. One of the questions they attorneys asked was, How we feel about awarding money. I told him, if the money was for necessities due to the accident I was ok with it, but if the money was to go on vacation to an island I wouldn't approve it. As you might guess, I was dismissed.

I'm glad this trial is over and I'm very happy that Katherine is not getting any money. After all, she said this trial was about the truth. I remember Jermaine saying "this is not about money", so they all should be happy.

 

[shelly_webster]

I also think it will force them to consider a little more the question of personal responsabities. It's obvious to me that the jury would have never given 1 billion to the Jackson. They obviously think he was partly responsible for his death.

 

[Petrarose]

It is increasingly alarming to me how many people seem to be losing the ability to analyze facts critically. It’s scary how any illogical theory or conspiracy theory can be thrown up and people will believe it without paying any attention to the facts. Randy and the Jackson's have done a good job of messing with the minds of MJ's fans.

Yes this is of concern since we may have a Wade case coming and we need to understand facts. We had conspiracies in Michael's death; some saw him sit up when he was being transferred to the helicopter and think he is living in another country. Ha. One of my friends pulled me by the arm to show me this movement on her blackberry. She kept saying you see you see, and I kept saying no I don't see any movement. Then she told me it goes by quickly so she kept playing this thing over & over. Up to now I still do not see any Michael sitting up. Ha

The latest conspiracy I heard is from Oxman who claims Michael did not tell Muarry to buy all that prof. It seems AEG told him to do that.

No Randy news I see. The estate needs to be careful now. I mean letters did not work; kidnapping did not work; name calling did not work; suing did not work; so what would a desperate mind do next?

Aquarius your comment: I told him, if the money was for necessities due to the accident I was ok with it, but if the money was to go on vacation to an island I wouldn't approve it. As you might guess, I was dismissed.

This is so funny. I guess they did not want any trouble makers.

 

[Ashtanga]

BY Mike Garcia (ex bodyguard Michael):

My reaction to the AEG vs Jackson verdict...EVERYBODY needs to leave Mr Jackson alone and quit trying to make money from him. Its really sad seeing people trying to ride on his legacy and not doing the right things. EVERYTHING NEEDS TO STOP.
I've done 8 tv interviews speaking about Mr Jackson and got paid $0. I never thought the money offered was ever mine to begin with, because it costs nothing defending a man who gave so much to this world. Let him rest in paradise. ?#?RIPboss?

https://www.facebook.com/MikeGarcia808/posts/10151671089863587

I hope.... :fear:

He needs to be kept far away from KJ so she can think clearly what is she doing and at what cost. Then KJ needs to kick all of her advisers and lawyers to the curb as so far they've been good for nothing.

She is not naive especially when it comes to money involved. -_- She knows exactly what makes and is aware of things. People can even influence it in some way to make decisions or manipulate it ... If she goes ahead and does it ... because she wants and knows what she is doing and it was not because someone put a gun to her head and forced her to do. Katherine (and the rest of the family) with her sweet voice, with all the drama theater and her naive face can fool a lot of people. Or not? :fear:

 

[8701girl]

Originally Posted by Ashtanga
Randy is silent. :bugeyed Strange that he is not screaming on twitter on the result this shit trial. :fear:Maybe he's busy thinking about what he will do with his life going forward. :lmao:

Yes it is strange isnt it lol

 

[crillon]

Krizkil, exactly! It is a matter of perception.

Both Forbes and CNN's Duke have stated the jurors did not see an unethical or conflicted doctor as unfit and incompetent however there are those that see that quite differently and more plainly than these jurors.

Neither side is right or wrong; it is simply their view. For the jurors, it is a shared view or shared decision that we are free to agree or disagree with in this subforum.

No one knew Murray was unethical until AFTER Michael died. The jurors were correct in considering him "fit and competent" at the time he was hired.

 

[Tygger]

No one knew Murray was unethical until AFTER Michael died. The jurors were correct in considering him "fit and competent" at the time he was hired.

That is your view, you find it correct, and that is fine.

Some do believe a conflicted doctor is unethical. You have to blame Forbes and Duke for the statements in the articles.

 

[passy001]

That is your view, you find it correct, and that is fine.

Some do believe a conflicted doctor is unethical. You have to blame Forbes and Duke for the statements in the articles.

The real question is: What do you believe? and does it even matter?

 

[Tygger]

The real question is: What do you believe? and does it even matter?

What I believe matters most to me. If I do not believe in something, I am bound to fall for everything and follow everyone who may not value my best interest.

 

[bluetopez]

After finding out that the Jurors wouldn't have even passed question 3, it's like why are we still arguing over this then? AEG would have won regardless! =/

 

[krikzil]

Krizkil, exactly! It is a matter of perception.

Both Forbes and CNN's Duke have stated the jurors did not see an unethical or conflicted doctor as unfit and incompetent however there are those that see that quite differently and more plainly than these jurors.

Neither side is right or wrong; it is simply their view. For the jurors, it is a shared view or shared decision that we are free to agree or disagree with in this subforum.

Well obviously it's a "shared" view for jurors; there couldn't be a verdict otherwise. We can all agree or disagree with pretty much everything in life so I'm not sure what point you're making here to be honest.

Bottom line....when it comes to a trial, the only opinion that matters IS that of the Triers of Fact.

(But for the record, I do think they saw things very clearly and got it right.)

 

[krikzil]

I find there is something distasteful about these types of cases, where people take advantage of a loophole or technicality to sue for millions. In this case, you have Michael and AEG acting as though Muarry was hired, so legally Muarry is hired. Someone jumps on that & with no evidence whatsoever, accuse AEG of negligently hiring Muarry. It seems the only evidence that allowed the case to go forward was for oral hiring, but there was no evidence for negligent hiring. The judge felt the jury should decide. As a result of this, Michael's personal issues had to be paraded in court. I could never respect people who file cases like this.

I find it distasteful, too.

I might have believed that Katherine was on a real quest for justice had she gone for the criminal restitution but when she declined it, it was clear to me it was just about the never-ending quest for $$$. Cynically, I also don't think it's over either.

 

[Tygger]

We can all agree or disagree with pretty much everything in life so I'm not sure what point you're making here to be honest.

No issue here Krikzil.

 

[gerryevans]

People who think the fact that MJ was called 'the freak" in an email he never saw, or that RP wrote in an email he 'slapped him" and 'yelled at him so hard the walls shook" is enough to find for negligent hiring and supervision are not grounded in reality b/c yelling, slapping, name-calling does not kill anyone and is not an indication that you are going to kill anyone. Also, to me it's clear RP was in a stressed state at the time he made these remarks and was exaggerating--does anyone really believe the 'walls shook"???

I totally believe RP was completely exaggerating, but I still wish one of MJ's big hefty bodyguards had been around and slapped him back, especially if he put his hands on MJ in a truly vicious manner. The ONLY good thing about this suit was that it put him and AEG on the hot seat, and they've got some major legal bills.

 

[twinklEE]

I totally believe RP was completely exaggerating, but I still wish one of MJ's big hefty bodyguards had been around and slapped him back, especially if he put his hands on MJ in a truly vicious manner. The ONLY good thing about this suit was that it put him and AEG on the hot seat, and they've got some major legal bills.

Th bills issue I pray to God Michael's estate isnt forced to pay them, if it should come out of Katherine's allowance.

 

[Bubs]

I find it distasteful, too.

I might have believed that Katherine was on a real quest for justice had she gone for the criminal restitution but when she declined it, it was clear to me it was just about the never-ending quest for $$$. Cynically, I also don't think it's over either.

To me it was plain old extortion attempt from Jackson's side. First they allowed CM free to profit from his crime, then they offered twice to settle the case.

Kevin Boyle, an attorney for Jackson’s mother and three children, said the family made the offers in January and March.
Boyle would not provide details but said AEG’s insurance would have paid, “which means they could have settled the case without them paying a dime of their money.”
Full article here:http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/21/local/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-trial-20130521


Does that scream real justice? KJ says she wanted to know what happen to MJ, but if AEG had agreed with their extortion attempt, there wouldn't have been uncovering who hired CM and and fiinding out what happened to MJ. For right amount of money those issues wouldn't have mattered. To family justice means $$$$$$$

 

[Bubs]

I totally believe RP was completely exaggerating, but I still wish one of MJ's big hefty bodyguards had been around and slapped him back, especially if he put his hands on MJ in a truly vicious manner. The ONLY good thing about this suit was that it put him and AEG on the hot seat, and they've got some major legal bills.

I don't think that slap was vicious. I think he is kind of type that do a bit of boasting and exaggerating to color his stories.
I don't know whether its a good thing hat they got some major legal bills as they can go to judge with their bills and ask plaintiffs to pay them. Randy is not going to pay them for sure, so it is either Panish's company or KJ, and we know what happen if KJ has to pay those.

 

[Mneme]

To me, the deciding issue is at the time he was hired was there any reason to believe he was incompetent or unfit, setting aside theories of how conflicts of interest would lead or could lead to dire consequences and also setting aside that he was in debt. Just on the face of it, he had the required licenses and he lacked malpractice suits, etc. The only complaint in his file was that he did not return a call when he was supposed to. He was licensed in 4 states. So at the time he was hired, he passed the fit and competent criteria. Later, he showed himself to be unfit and incompetent, but that was not until MJ was already dead, and after an investigation and a trial that documented all the ways he failed to adhere to the standard of care, including not calling 911 right away. At the time of the 19th of June, MJ could have had the flu, mental issues due to stress, etc. There was no way to decisively "know" it was nightly injections of propofol, or anything else CM did, that were the cause.

People who think the fact that MJ was called 'the freak" in an email he never saw, or that RP wrote in an email he 'slapped him" and 'yelled at him so hard the walls shook" is enough to find for negligent hiring and supervision are not grounded in reality b/c yelling, slapping, name-calling does not kill anyone and is not an indication that you are going to kill anyone. Also, to me it's clear RP was in a stressed state at the time he made these remarks and was exaggerating--does anyone really believe the 'walls shook"???

Then there is Panish saying AEG didn't care about MJ and they only wanted him for the money he would bring--yes, it's called capitalism and that's the system we're operating under. If you buy something in the marketplace, the maker of the product does not 'care' about you. Caring is not part of capitalism. That's not how it works--it was a huge struggle for Ralph Nader to get seatbelts and airbags installed in cars as standard safety features. Companies resist making changes that cost them $$ even when public safety is at stake and there are many instances of this (unfortunately). AEG didn't have to care but they had to not be negligent.

I was impressed with that foreman and the jury. In order to have liability you have to prove negligence and the evidence to show that AEG knew what depths of incompetence CM could sink to at the time they hired him or even at the end, was just not there.

edit: And just as AEG could not forsee the depths CM would sink to in terms of incompetence, neither could MJ. I am sure he never thought that CM would abandon him, that he wouldn't call 911, that he didn't know the basics of resuscitation.

Many thanks, Jamba, You wrote all this what I would write if my english would be better!

 

[elusive moonwalker]

It is increasingly alarming to me how many people seem to be losing the ability to analyze facts critically. It’s scary how any illogical theory or conspiracy theory can be thrown up and people will believe it without paying any attention to the facts. Randy and the Jackson's have done a good job of messing with the minds of MJ's fans.
--------------------------------------------------------

ive just come from the robson thread where deluded haters still claim child pron was found.kinda worrying you have the same thing going on but about a different issue.

and why did that article think mj fans would be upset about the verdict! they should research more lol

 

[gerryevans]

I don't think that slap was vicious. I think he is kind of type that do a bit of boasting and exaggerating to color his stories.
I don't know whether its a good thing hat they got some major legal bills as they can go to judge with their bills and ask plaintiffs to pay them. Randy is not going to pay them for sure, so it is either Panish's company or KJ, and we know what happen if KJ has to pay those.

I hadn't thought about them actually asking KJ's side to pay. Wow...one travesty after another with this thing if that happens. But I think Randy Phillips is a little punk, and as much as I know he wanted MJ to pull it together for the shows, I believe he was like many others, and got an ego boost seeing the mighty Michael Jackson in a distressed state. Even distressed, MJ was a better man than all the AEG execs combined. That's probably why he exaggerated as much as he did, because a part of him knew that, too.

 

[Christine3110]

This bow is for you IVY ... thanks and love

 

[Juror#27]

It is increasingly alarming to me how many people seem to be losing the ability to analyze facts critically. It’s scary how any illogical theory or conspiracy theory can be thrown up and people will believe it without paying any attention to the facts. Randy and the Jackson's have done a good job of messing with the minds of MJ's fans.

I couldn't agree more with the bolded. It's practically an epidemic as far as I'm concerned.

I was on this jury, and of all the places I've seen where this is being talked about, this community seems by far to be the most level-headed and approachable. So many passionate MJ fans rationally discussing the verdict rather than lashing out in anger is very nice to see, and makes me think this is probably the best place for me to make a small statement.

Initially I planned to avoid and ignore all the comments about the verdict after the trial ended. Because as soon as we answered 'no' to question 2 in the jury room, I knew how it would be reported and misunderstood ("DURR STUPID JURY HOW CAN CONRAD MURRAY BE FIT AND COMPETENT WHEN HE IS IN JAIL FOR KILLING MJ??? DURRR"). And sure enough, the very first question asked by the media when we got outside was "How could you find Conrad Murray competent?" And of course a bunch of hardcore MJ supporters outside were yelling, calling us stupid and confused, etc. So I figured rather than getting annoyed at misinformation being spread or seeing us called morons ad nauseam, it'd be better to just ignore it all.

Well that lasted about a day before my curiosity got the better of me, and I had to peek around to see what people were saying. I had to see if that version of us as idiots was the main narrative going on. Thankfully most people commenting on the verdict are actually looking at what we were instructed to consider, and agree with our decision. We knew from day 1 that no matter the outcome we would have people agreeing and disagreeing with the verdict, and I'm thankful that this jury did not concern itself with what people would say or think about us and decided to follow the instructions and base our verdict on the evidence in the case.

Just like our jury foreman, I went into this trial about as neutral as one could be towards Michael Jackson. I was 7 when Thriller came out so I grew up with his music and loved it, but I knew very little about his life other than what I'd seen in the media, and I honestly had no strong feelings about him as a person either way. I walk out of this trial completely understanding why he has so many fans who practically deify him. Who are so strongly attracted to his kind spirit, huge heart, gentle nature, love of his children and mother, etc. I totally get it now.

Every single witness who was questioned about whether they thought MJ was a good father (and almost every one who knew him closely was asked) sang endless praises about his love of his kids. If Prince's testimony is any indication, MJ was definitely a great father. The kid is bright, intelligent, caring, has great character and a great personality, and I truly believe MJ did a phenomenal job raising him in the few years he was able to. Honestly, every single juror came away feeling very positive about Michael Jackson as a person and father.

I know there was concern about MJ's image being hurt because of this trial, and maybe to outside viewers it was because of some of the details that came out. But for us in the jury in that courtroom for all these months, we just grew more and more fond of him during the course of the trial.

I'd like to say thank you to all the people I've seen here supporting us jurors in our decision, it really means a lot. I will be happy to answer anything I can about the trial if you'd like to ask and if I am able.

 

[ivy]

^^

I just approved the above post from the juror

 

[LastTear]

I'm so pleased the juror came here to make their statement, it is very much appreciated. Whilst I personally believe that they brought the right verdict I hope they understand that although others do disagree it is actually only a small percentage who resort to name calling.

And also thank you for your lovely words about Michael, these are things we know already but they are often ignored by the media and so it's nice that when someone actually has an opportunity to see, really see Michael that you can come away with such lovely sentiments.