Understanding Joe Jackson

[Melania]

As a parent myself, I have an incredibly difficult time understanding anyone who could ever hurt their child, let alone understand anyone who could cause as much hurt as Michael was subjected to.
But I will theorize that perhaps Joe was subjected to the same "discipline" that he subjected his children to. And that can be a difficult cycle to break. Michael broke it; he is an incredibly strong person. But many people raise their children the way they were raised without a second thought.
Michael goes into a bit of detail in his Oxford speech if I recall correctly. I think he explained that Joe wanted his children to succeed and be trained them to do so in the only way he knew how.

 

[marialovesmjj]

I know people Joe's age and older who didn't do what Joe did. I agree with Roma's first post.

 

[blue_eyed_belle]

If I said that I understood Joe Jackson, I would be lying I believe that he genuinely is of a different era though, so I won't begin to judge his parenting skills. I just really don't get why he called Michael ugly :no: that really affected him.

 

[bubbyduck4MJ]

Based on this, Michael would also abuse his children. Which we know is not the case.

In the Schmuley tapes, he emphatically denied your theory that the abused often become the abuser.

Michael did not think so...neither do I.

Sadly the abused do often become the abuser. No-one has the answers why some do and others don't but I certainly think Michael's extreme sensitively and loving self could never hurt others, instead he was hurting himself...the hurt was pulled inward.

Joe messed Michael up and for that I don't like him. I don't hate him, I just don't like him and what he's doing with suing the estate is just sick.

Poor Mike spent his entire life trying to get over it.

Same. and ...

I've heard the same thing as some of yall said from many other people who grew up with strict fathers who don't show emotions. But, nothing can change my position.

Being a strict disciplinarian and being abusive must be differentiated. There is a line that must be drawn between the two.

I grew up with many similar experiences to Michael's. Even some of his specific reactions caused from the fear for his father. Also grew up in this country where physical punishment is one of the usual forms of education. I know why and where some people try to blurr the line based on their experiences and that's where "I get Joe" talk starts. I tried a few times to change their minds, but I don't think I can nor will do that now. I'm just too tired.


I simply refuse to look at Joe Jackson as one of those strict, oldschool fathers. I truly understand the meaning of the bolded part.

I totally agree with you. I do not have a lot of knowledge of the Southern area and how people were raised in regards to discipline but I can respect how people were and what they knew, but there is indeed a line and I believe Joe crossed it.

I get Joe, and well like someone said earlier, he is 80yrs old and not about to change.. He is what he is, like him or not... my guess that majority of you all don't and that is your right. I personally don't dislike the man, he has his faults just like everyone else. He and his wife raised their 9 kids how they saw fit. I may not agree with some of the things they may have done, but hell if they were to look into how my parents raised me, they may not like something... Some families are into whippings others are into timeouts, or some other types of punishments... to each their own...
Janet said the other night that she loves her dad and may cringe at some of the things he does, but hell I cringe at some of the things my mother does (she is a very outspoken person at times)..
I personally feel that both parents should be at fault for anything that happened to MJ when he was young, but Mr. Jackson gets the brunt of it since he is out in the forefront most of the time.

All we can do is hope that the children learned to not cross that fine like like their parents, meaning you can discipline your children with whippings or whatever the choice, but not go overboard with it, to the point your kids become scared of you.

If families are 'into whippings'...it is more than just an OK punishment like others mentioned, they are physically abusing their children IMO.

Snow, I understand where you are coming from and I have similar feelings, however it is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

Mrs. Jackson grew up in an era and a religion that taught women were their to serve their husband. That they were to remain loyal to them always, no matter what he did. So even if he beats you, rapes you, cheat on you, and belittle you, you stick by your man. This mindset, unfortunately, was very common for women, especially, African-American women. After you have been taught this your entire life, you cannot just switch if off.

Totally agree with you.

 

[Krshna28]

There was a time when he actually cared for his wife and children. Now he only thinks of himself.....

 

[MJJ7777]

If I said that I understood Joe Jackson, I would be lying I believe that he genuinely is of a different era though, so I won't begin to judge his parenting skills. I just really don't get why he called Michael ugly :no: that really affected him.

I know I might get jumped but I think this "name-calling" is a black family thing.

My family are from the islands. I have Black American friends. I've noticed that we all tend to call each other ugly or some other kind of mean name. I do it all the time personally, especially with my little sister and my cousins. Its all in good fun. We know no one's ugly, but for the sake of it, we just tease each other. Do you know how many times my mother, my grandmother teases us? But we all know its harmless.

MJ isn't off the hook by the way when it comes to namecalling.

He teased Janet because of her weight all the time. Calling her dunk because he thought her rear end was so large it resembled a donkey's butt. That I must say was kinda mean but who takes it seriously?

Have you seen that video of MJ on Barry White's farm, where he calls Randy an "ugly ape"? Guess not.

It isn't a big deal. Bottomline, MJ knew he was goodlooking (i.e., Fainting fans).

 

[bgz]

It's hard coming from a generation where discipline was the norm. My family was white, pretty much German/Bulgarian descent. My dad was an engineer, known for exacting and disciplined behavior. If I spoke up, I got a hand across my face. But it was not at all unusual for the time or the generation (the '50's) when I was a child. To this day if someone speaks in an authoritarian manner to me, I just withdraw. The same was true of my mother, she knew no other way when it came to being the wife /mother and adhereing to the male dominance. Did that make it right? Not by today's standards, but it was very much seen a "norm" in most segments of the general population at the time. I could not state emphatically that I hated my father, but I hated the discipline and often unjustified coldness that was the norm for me and many of my friends. It was what it was, and you adapted to their form of upbringing because there was no option, other ways of upbringing were not readily seen in my community.

What bothers me most is the unfairness of it all in comparison to today's standards. And the life long fear and discomfort I continue to feel if I don't agree with something, or need to speak up.

In many ways I really do understand the position Katherine has/had taken, but know the ongoing difficulty/pain it may cause to the her grandchildren no matter how well meaning or ingrained it has become over the years. It's a hard cycle to completely break free of; wishing her strength and the will to definitively take a stand where Michael's children's welfare is at stake, as well as the other grandchildren in her care.

jmo

 

[ensleyave]

ell because I promised Trish in the NEW MJJC Rules thread that I wouldnt talk trash about Joe ...all I can say is no comment!!!........and just for the record....I dont get Joe at all.

I get him; I am from the south was whipped never mentally abused though. Parent praised me and loved me but got into that a** when needed with whatever was handy. I know about the electrical chords and wire hangers. I DON'T GET JOE. No comment.

 

[ginvid]

Snow, I understand where you are coming from and I have similar feelings, however it is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

Mrs. Jackson grew up in an era and a religion that taught women were their to serve their husband. That they were to remain loyal to them always, no matter what he did. So even if he beats you, rapes you, cheat on you, and belittle you, you stick by your man. This mindset, unfortunately, was very common for women, especially, African-American women. After you have been taught this your entire life, you cannot just switch if off.

I just have to say that that is categorically not true. Era is correct, religion is not.

 

[ginvid]

I know I might get jumped but I think this "name-calling" is a black family thing.

My family are from the islands. I have Black American friends. I've noticed that we all tend to call each other ugly or some other kind of mean name. I do it all the time personally, especially with my little sister and my cousins. Its all in good fun. We know no one's ugly, but for the sake of it, we just tease each other. Do you know how many times my mother, my grandmother teases us? But we all know its harmless.

MJ isn't off the hook by the way when it comes to namecalling.

He teased Janet because of her weight all the time. Calling her dunk because he thought her rear end was so large it resembled a donkey's butt. That I must say was kinda mean but who takes it seriously?

Have you seen that video of MJ on Barry White's farm, where he calls Randy an "ugly ape"? Guess not.

It isn't a big deal. Bottomline, MJ knew he was goodlooking (i.e., Fainting fans).

I think it is common in many families to call each other names and make fun of each other. However, I by no means think it is harmless. Listen at Janet talk about her weight issues and how they affected her and you will see it has an effect.

When people jest, esp about the same thing over and over, that stuff starts to stay with you.

My whole family is very thin. My bro is 5'11, 125 lbs. My sister was 5'6 102 lbs. My mother after 4 children was 5'7 98lbs. After having 6 childre she went to 140lbs. My father, aunts uncles and grandparents are all thin. Me on the other hand, I'm 5'4 180lbs. I got teased constantly growing up. All the time. From my grandparents to cousins to bros, sisters and parents. They would tell me I'm too fat. And if all the food was gone in the house, check me. They were joking but that stays with you. When I wanted to do something to lose weight, I had to see a therapist first and he told me I was dysmorphic and should consider therapy (whatever).

Anyway, all of that was just to say that no matter how many times someone tells you to the contrary, esp if those who were supposed to l;ove you the most, point out a flaw and cont to make fun of it, you will have that with you forever. And you will always be fighting in your head against this image of yourself that someone else has given you. And we are a black family. Even when I was 140lbs, I was still trying to get smaller. i think the smaller the better. You're never satisfied.

Mj might have felt that he looked ok to some, but if the same people who belittled him growing up never ack that he was, in his mind he prob was not. And when he looked in the mirror he prob saw this distortion of his face. Words, whether in jest or not are very powerful. And their long term effects cannot just be dismissed.

 

[Driver]

I obviously don't agree with a lot of the things Joe Jackson has done, but sometimes people forget that Michael did forgive him, respected him and loved him. It is really not nice to read people being rude about him. He must have worked really hard to put food on the table for all the children and Katherine, there are admirable qualities to him which are often overlooked. He played a huge part in bringing Michael to us, see my sig...

 

[ensleyave]

My grandfather was no different from Joe. He live in the rural area couldn't read. Moved to Birmingham Alabama to work in the Steel Mills. It was very difficult for him in the heart of the south before and during the Civil Rights Movement. He never never did the things to my dad and uncles that Joe did to his kids. It was hard down here in the south in Birmingham even in the seventies. We had bombings every other day Klan marches. There is no excuse for the way he treated MJ and his family. I forgive him because I truly believe he is a different man today. Some of the things he say and do are questionable because he is not educated or articulate for that I give him a pass. I do not doubt he love Michael and his family he just could not show it. The cycle can be broken. When you know better you do better.

 

[MJJ7777]

I obviously don't agree with a lot of the things Joe Jackson has done, but sometimes people forget that Michael did forgive him, respected him and loved him. It is really not nice to read people being rude about him. He must have worked really hard to put food on the table for all the children and Katherine, there are admirable qualities to him which are often overlooked. He played a huge part in bringing Michael to us, see my sig...

I enjoyed your post! I love your sig too. Joe resembles Paris so much in it. Maybe its just me.

 

[MrsMJ2007]

I think that the majority of people out there get Joe Jackson. But the problem is that Joe Jackson's comments and actions have really made him his own worst enemy. I'm not going to pretend I like him. I really tried to have understanding and sympathy for him because of the loss of his son. But I still do not approve of how he treated his children. His words and actions as of late, brought back those old feelings of resentment that I really didn't want to touch on again.
Many of us grew up with very strict parents, especially in the black community. But it doesn't mean that the way some of us were reared was right. We have a huge problem with violence in the black community. The same excuse I heard as a kid is the same excuse I hear now. "If I don't beat you then someone else out there will". It's time we changed the attitudes in the black community regarding disciplining our children. It's not necessary to beat on children just b/c they do something wrong or they break something. They are children and are learning. We are not speaking of a simple pat on the behind or a swat on the hand.
Do you as adults enjoy being slapped, hit with a belt or switch or kicked around? How would that make you feel? What affect would that have on your self esteem? Couple that with psychological or emotional torture with no affection such as hugs or kisses? What u get are so many of the problems that are occurring in this nation today. Not saying that all children turn out to do something bad. But it can tend to cycle from generation to generation.
There are many other ways to discipline children without hitting. But you have to set rules and boundaries for children. They need that structure. But most of all they need our love and understanding.

 

[MrsMJ2007]

Re: Sibling Name Calling

I know I might get jumped but I think this "name-calling" is a black family thing.

My family are from the islands. I have Black American friends. I've noticed that we all tend to call each other ugly or some other kind of mean name. I do it all the time personally, especially with my little sister and my cousins. Its all in good fun. We know no one's ugly, but for the sake of it, we just tease each other. Do you know how many times my mother, my grandmother teases us? But we all know its harmless.

MJ isn't off the hook by the way when it comes to namecalling.

He teased Janet because of her weight all the time. Calling her dunk because he thought her rear end was so large it resembled a donkey's butt. That I must say was kinda mean but who takes it seriously?

Have you seen that video of MJ on Barry White's farm, where he calls Randy an "ugly ape"? Guess not.

It isn't a big deal. Bottomline, MJ knew he was goodlooking (i.e., Fainting fans).

Name calling isn't limited to black people. All races do that with their siblings. It's not harmless b/c it can have a profound affect on someone else. I know we all tease our brothers and sisters at one point or another. But we don't realize as kids how much words really do hurt even if it is in jest.
Yes, I saw that video posted on YT. And no, Michael did not think he was good looking at all. Michael had very, very low self-esteem. It's sad b/c to me he was one of the most beautiful men I've ever seen inside and out.

 

[MJJ7777]

Re: Sibling Name Calling

Name calling isn't limited to black people. All races do that with their siblings. It's not harmless b/c it can have a profound affect on someone else. I know we all tease our brothers and sisters at one point or another. But we don't realize as kids how much words really do hurt even if it is in jest.
Yes, I saw that video posted on YT. And no, Michael did not think he was good looking at all. Michael had very, very low self-esteem. It's sad b/c to me he was one of the most beautiful men I've ever seen inside and out.

Ok, maybe it isn't harmless. I still don't get how he is able to perform the way that he performs onstage if he is that self conscious of himself. He was practically a worshipped man. If he didn't know that then I don't know what to tell you.