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The main reason most people don't like Invincible album is Rodney Jerkins?

The only reason Santana's album sold what it did is because of Clive Davis getting young then hot artists like Lauryn Hill, Wyclef, Rob Thomas, etc. to sing on it. It's similar to those Frank Sinatra & Ray Charles duets albums in the 1990s, which also sold a lot. Without them, I doubt it would have done the same business. Not a single Santana album before or since has sold what Supernatural sold. Like Eagles, Queen, Johnny Mathis, & Abba, before Supernatual, Santana's biggest seller was a Greatest Hits. Clive is also the reason Whitney Houston & Kenny G were big in the 1980s & 1990s.
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
I do remember Invincible being labeled as a flop by the media. All things considered I don't think it did too bad sales wise.

The album was already dead by the end of 2002 due to no major hit singles/music videos/live performances.

One thing though, I don't buy the whole Sony sabotaged the promotion etc, it just never really took off.

MJ always released strong and consistent albums. We were pretty lucky.

If Vince is considered as MJ's worst album, fair enough, I'm sure he would have bounced back with a stronger release next time.

All the big Artists can release duds from time to time.
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*by the end of 2001 honestly
 
Nite Line said:
Did any of Madonna’s album reach the sales of History?
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Like a Virgin sold 21m worldwide
True Blue sold 25m

That's a pretty dumb question lol
Nite Line said:
Madonna hasn’t been commercially relevant since 2008.
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And MJ hadn't been commercially relevant since 2001 (or 1995, arguably)

MJ has no excuse not to sell over 10m in his 40s when when Madonna did. He failed
 
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Blues_Away2023 said:
One thing though, I don't buy the whole Sony sabotaged the promotion etc, it just never really took off.
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Let's see.

"You Rock My World" wasn't released as a commercial single in the US at all, which prevented it from charting higher on the Hot 100 (hit no.10 solely on airplay)

"Cry" wasn't released in the US at all

"Butterflies" wasn't released outside of the US at all. And in the US, it wasn't released as a commercial single, which prevented it from charting higher on the Hot 100 (hit no.14 solely on airplay)

So in the US, it had two radio-only songs and nothing more. Outside, it had two singles and nothing more.

They didn't even air a commercial for the album during the 30th anniversary concert broadcast, which was viewed by over 30 million people.

And you say it wasn't sabotaged? Nah fam
 
Spaceship said:
Let's see.

"You Rock My World" wasn't released as a commercial single in the US at all, which prevented it from charting higher on the Hot 100 (hit no.10 solely on airplay)

"Cry" wasn't released in the US at all

"Butterflies" wasn't released outside of the US at all. And in the US, it wasn't released as a commercial single, which prevented it from charting higher on the Hot 100 (hit no.14 solely on airplay)

So in the US, it had two radio-only songs and nothing more. Outside, it had two singles and nothing more.

They didn't even air a commercial for the album during the 30th anniversary concert broadcast, which was viewed by over 30 million people.

And you say it wasn't sabotaged? Nah fam
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Yeah it wasn't sabotaged, it wouldn't make sense for it, after spending so much money making the album , bit odd that they wold sabotage their own money maker soon after it's release.

Cry not being released in the US wasn't a big loss. In the uk , it reached the crazy heights of 25 in the charts.

MJ was not playing ball either, he was difficult to work with by 2001.

At the end of the day, if the album contained a few killer radio singles it might have done better. The truth is , it never
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
Yeah it wasn't sabotaged
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Why are you covering your ears lol
Blues_Away2023 said:
it wouldn't make sense for it, after spending so much money making the album , bit odd that they wold sabotage their own money maker soon after it's releas
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I see you don't know how the music biz works. Sony sabotaged the album because MJ was planning to leave them. The album succeeding would increase the chances of another label picking him up when he leaves, which would be bad for Sony in the long term. The album failing, on the other hand, turns other labels away from MJ, which benefits Sony in the long term.
Blues_Away2023 said:
Cry not being released in the US wasn't a big loss.
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Not releasing any singles after "Butterflies" in the US is definitely a big loss. Other songs like "Whatever Happens" definitely had more potential than "Cry" ever did.
Blues_Away2023 said:
At the end of the day, if the album contained a few killer radio singles it might have done better.
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"Music videos don't help"
"Advertisements don't help"
"Commercial singles don't help"

Nah fam this ain't it lol
 
I SO LOVE PRIVACY AND 2000WATTS.. BEST BANGERS ON THE ALBUM SAME WITH THREATENED AND THE FIRST 3 SONGS... LOVE THIS PART OF THE ALBUM.
 
Spaceship said:
Why are you covering your ears lol

I see you don't know how the music biz works. Sony sabotaged the album because MJ was planning to leave them. The album succeeding would increase the chances of another label picking him up when he leaves, which would be bad for Sony in the long term. The album failing, on the other hand, turns other labels away from MJ, which benefits Sony in the long term.

Not releasing any singles after "Butterflies" in the US is definitely a big loss. Other songs like "Whatever Happens" definitely had more potential than "Cry" ever did.

"Music videos don't help"
"Advertisements don't help"
"Commercial singles don't help"

Nah fam this ain't it lol
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I'm sorry but I'm reading through your post and the only thing I'm seeing is excuses.

As if MJ couldn't get picked up by another label, of course he could. The man had so much power that he could do almost anything.

The real reason why it 'failed' was because MJ was no longer the huge draw that he was before, he was also 43 years old and the music came second to the circus surrounding his life.

Invincible did not have any major hit potential singles, his work on Invincible was not as good as before.

That's what I truly believe. As huge MJ fans we obviously love the music but I can see why Joe bloggs may not.
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
As if MJ couldn't get picked up by another label, of course he could. The man had so much power that he could do almost anything.
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There are other ways of admitting that you don't understand how the music industry works. If you release a flop album, then labels are going to back off from you. He could maybe find a new label, but not likely one that would make him their priority. Sony had been hesitant to promote him in America since Blood on the Dance Floor, before he planned to leave them, so after Invincible flopped, other labels are going to be just as hesitant.

The general consensus after Invincible flopped was that MJ was a washed up old act from the 80s. He was never going to get top billing ever again regardless of what label be was on. "He had so much power" even though he was in debt? LOL

Blues_Away2023 said:
Invincible did not have any major hit potential singles, his work on Invincible was not as good as before.
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"You Rock My World" hit no.10 solely on airplay
"Butterflies" hit no.14 solely on airplay.
If they were CD singles, then they would have objectively peaked even higher.

No need to deny statistics.
 
Spaceship said:
If they were CD singles, then they would have objectively peaked even higher.
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I don't think that really mattered in 2001. Here's the Top 12 songs from a Hot 100 chart in October 2001. 4 of the songs, including Ginuwine's at #4 are all album tracks, which means no physical single to buy. When the charts were based on sales of 45s, album tracks could not chart. But the B-side of a 45 could. The labels started to phase out physical singles in the 1990s. I think that's why Napster hit so hard very quickly, the labels was trying to force people to buy the albums when they only wanted the song on the radio. 45s were also cheap for teenagers who didn't have much money to spend. Back then, CDs already cost more than the record & tape versions of the albums.
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Fred Bronson, Billboard's chart expert at the time, remarked, "Certainly, if a commercial single had been available [for "You Rock My World"], it would have peaked higher - perhaps even at no.1".

Think I'll go with the word of the professional expert over some randoms online lol

And "Differences" by Ginuwine definitely would have hit no.1 if it had a CD release. Song was huge.
 
Spaceship said:
There are other ways of admitting that you don't understand how the music industry works. If you release a flop album, then labels are going to back off from you. He could maybe find a new label, but not likely one that would make him their priority. Sony had been hesitant to promote him in America since Blood on the Dance Floor, before he planned to leave them, so after Invincible flopped, other labels are going to be just as hesitant.

The general consensus after Invincible flopped was that MJ was a washed up old act from the 80s. He was never going to get top billing ever again regardless of what label be was on. "He had so much power" even though he was in debt? LOL



"You Rock My World" hit no.10 solely on airplay
"Butterflies" hit no.14 solely on airplay.
If they were CD singles, then they would have objectively peaked even higher.

No need to deny statistics.
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There are other ways of admitting you do not know how the music industry works? I'm sorry but who are you?

If Michael Jackson moves to another label, he instantly becomes the top star on that label.

You Rock My World was a CD single, music video and all... forget the US.

You talk about denying statistics yet dismissed everything I said was the real reason Invincible flopped.
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
If Michael Jackson moves to another label, he instantly becomes the top star on that label.
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Post the allegations? LOL no. History's underperforming in 1995 quite bluntly proved that MJ was no longer the biggest star.

Blues_Away2023 said:
You talk about denying statistics yet dismissed everything I said was the real reason Invincible flopped.
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Ironic coming from mr. "Forget the US" lol
 
Spaceship said:
Fred Bronson, Billboard's chart expert at the time, remarked, "Certainly, if a commercial single had been available [for "You Rock My World"], it would have peaked higher - perhaps even at no.1".

Think I'll go with the word of the professional expert over some randoms online lol

And "Differences" by Ginuwine definitely would have hit no.1 if it had a CD release. Song was huge.
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Spaceship said:
Post the allegations? LOL no. History's underperforming in 1995 quite bluntly proved that MJ was no longer the biggest star.



Ironic coming from mr. "Forget the US" lol
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🤡
 
Spaceship said:
Fred Bronson, Billboard's chart expert at the time, remarked, "Certainly, if a commercial single had been available [for "You Rock My World"], it would have peaked higher - perhaps even at no.1".

Think I'll go with the word of the professional expert over some randoms online lol

And "Differences" by Ginuwine definitely would have hit no.1 if it had a CD release. Song was huge.
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It was #1 on the R&B chart, but that wasn't the point. I just picked a chart at random. Anyway you are the person who believes whatever album sales #s are put out there, when the RIAA, Billboard, nor the record labels, didn't even track the old record club sales (12 albums for a penny!), nor cutout versions of albums sold for cheap or singles put on those K-Tel compilations or albums sold on TV commercials (no CODs). The RIAA doesn't even audit whatever the labels tell them. Prince once said that he had no idea what Purple Rain sold, only what Warners told him. Also the fact that today a certain amount of streams is considered an album sale. There is no way to even track how much a record sells, because there is also the bootleg market or people burning CDs and selling them.
 
Spaceship said:
It's funny how this guy wants to pretend "You Rock My World" wasn't a global success, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Rock_My_World#Charts

It hit the top 5 in almost every country it charted. Even number one in six countries. Song was a smash lol
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Who said you rock my world wasn't a success? Not me anyway.

I'd say it did above average but it was absolutely not a massive comeback single. Here in the UK it landed at number 2 , behind Kylie Minogue's huge I just can’t get you outta my head *which had already been at number 1 for the past 3/4 weeks)

It slipped down the charts quite rapidly after that. The next single was Cry , number 25 in the charts.

That was the end of the Invincible era.
 
You need to make up your mind though dude. One minute you're saying Invincible flopped due to sabotage by Sony, the next you're saying it was because MJ was no longer commercially relevant...
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
Who said you rock my world wasn't a success? Not me anyway.

I'd say it did above average but
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It was a success lol. No buts.
Blues_Away2023 said:
The next single was Cry , number 25 in the charts.

That was the end of the Invincible era.
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Oh so just because "Cry" flopped means that none of the other songs had potential to be hits. Even though "Butterflies" was hit in the US. LOL cap

Cry sucked anyway. MJ never even wanted it as a single, but Sony forced it to be one against his wishes. Unsurprisingly, it flopped.
 
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Invincible definitely had way more potential than most people realize.
Even with a lot of solid songs not making the final tracklist, it still had enough material to be a good release.

Yes, Michael was not the draw he once was, but he still put out a solid list of songs that could have done well as singles.

Break of Dawn, Heaven can Wait, Unbreakable, Butterflies, You Rock My World, Whatever Happens, Threatened are all songs that when I show - people feel are very solid.

The potential remixes for Unbreakable and Threatened - they would have gone off in the clubs. When I show young people Unbreakable and Threatened now they still bop to it. The Unbreakable short film also had Michael's passion behind it and i'm sure something amazing would of come out of it. Break of Dawn and Heaven can Wait were perfect for radio. Whatever Happens was perfect for the Central and South American markets and the potential Western short film would have been amazing. Butterflies was well received in the USA and could have done even more with a proper release (short film included). Additionally, the era would of had WMCIG which could of been the new WATW.

Sony failed Michael by not promoting the album and Michael made the mistake of saying he was a free agent after the album. Both are true. Both parties are at fault for different reasons and their lack of unity prevented the Invincible album from living up to its potential.
 
Spaceship said:
There are other ways of admitting that you don't understand how the music industry works. If you release a flop album, then labels are going to back off from you. He could maybe find a new label, but not likely one that would make him their priority. Sony had been hesitant to promote him in America since Blood on the Dance Floor, before he planned to leave them, so after Invincible flopped, other labels are going to be just as hesitant.

The general consensus after Invincible flopped was that MJ was a washed up old act from the 80s. He was never going to get top billing ever again regardless of what label be was on. "He had so much power" even though he was in debt? LOL



"You Rock My World" hit no.10 solely on airplay
"Butterflies" hit no.14 solely on airplay.
If they were CD singles, then they would have objectively peaked even higher.

No need to deny statistics.
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Spaceship Wwwwwwwww
 
Spaceship said:
Like a Virgin sold 21m worldwide
True Blue sold 25m

That's a pretty dumb question lol


And MJ hadn't been commercially relevant since 2001 (or 1995, arguably)

MJ has no excuse not to sell over 10m in his 40s when when Madonna did. He failed
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Marketing of Madonna's 2008 album had a lot to do it, for a pop star in her 40's she performed on a lot of big talent shows and she appeared on nearly every chat show in the UK around that time. You couldn't get away from her. She also was working Pharrell.

Also she stayed relevant by attaching her music to popular films series, Austin Powers in the late 90's and then she delivered one of the weakest James Bond songs in 2002 and appeared in the film. So she was relevant by design, more so than appeal. She was chasing Kylie Minogue, Shania Twain and Britney Spears at the time, so her album neared a marketing push that in rightly got.

So Michael's 8-10 million sales for Invincible weren't bad, when you think he had very little promotion and frankly a slightly damaged image at the time of release.

Had Invincible had a good second single/video lined up and a decent interview with a famous journalist, it could have made a miny surge around Christmas 2001.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
Marketing of Madonna's 2008 album had a lot to do it, for a pop star in her 40's she performed on a lot of big talent shows and she appeared on nearly every chat show in the UK around that time. You couldn't get away from her.
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Right, unlike MJ she actually knew how to market herself lol

SmoothCriminal1995 said:
She also was working Pharrell.
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*Timbaland

SmoothCriminal1995 said:
So Michael's 8-10 million sales for Invincible weren't bad
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*6.5 million

It most definitely didn't sell 10m lol
 
Michael did know how to market himself - he had it done better than any artist from Off the Wall - HIStory.
He deliberately limited his appearances so when he did appear, it was always an event.

Michael was supposed to perform at the Grammys for Invincible - I think it was Whatever Happens.
But it didn't materialize for whatever reason.
He didn't have the backing from Sony and thus the album fizzled out after YRMW.

The truth is the general public no longer cared about his music so much as his personal image and life, he had become somewhat of a joke to the eyes of many. Madonna didn't have the same issue image wise and so could do what she did.
Also, Michael had been in the spotlight far longer than Madonna by that point and I think people were just burnt out by Michael Jackson.
 
Spaceship said:
They didn't even air a commercial for the album during the 30th anniversary concert broadcast, which was viewed by over 30 million people.

And you say it wasn't sabotaged? Nah fam
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Well to be fair...even though he performed yrmw...the album wasn't even displayed in the discography part of the clip that was shown
 
Keyan Asadi said:
Michael did know how to market himself - he had it done better than any artist from Off the Wall - HIStory.
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Following Bad, he mainly just focused on promoting himself to the rest of the world. The Dangerous tour wasn't in America at all, which resulted in the album's sales declining in 1992. They picked back up in 1993 when he started making more public appearances in the country but fell off when the scandal hit later that year. For History, he forsook promoting himself in America almost entirely.

He did more public appearances in America to promote Invincible, but Sony bit him in the ass. Still partly his fault, though.
 
Michael Jackson went global in the 90s, he was too big not to.
He had already done it all in America throughout the 70s and 80s.
 
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