The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

[Lotfi11k]

Yes and no.

Vogel is fortunate enough to have spoken with many of the key players for Thriller and Bad, and as a result those chapters are fantastic. He’s very comprehensive with everything from the writing and recording process, to the influences that shaped the album, to the various collaborators MJ worked with, to the month/year songs were worked on. Bad is especially detailed; the track-by-track section is as good as it gets.

Unfortunately, he still engages in a substantial amount of guesswork and includes information that has long been corrected and/or debunked. Also, it seems as though his resources for MJ’s post-Bad albums were limited, because each succeeding chapter becomes less and less informative. By the time you get to Invincible and MJ’s final years, it’s basically like reading the Wikipedia article. His writing oddly enough also seems less journalistic in his 2019 reissue, and more… high school-ish, if that makes sense? The original book was very succinct and well-thought-out, and the new edition feels very thrown together. A nit pick, but one I feel compelled to note.

If you’re a newer fan with a limited understanding of MJ’s catalog, it’s a great starting point. Otherwise, I’d suggest Making Michael by Mike Smallcombe, which in my opinion is the definitive MJ biography. Concise, objective, and not shy from including observations that critique the man.

What unreleased unheard this books talked about

 

[zinniabooklover]

Vogel is fortunate enough to have spoken with many of the key players for Thriller and Bad, and as a result those chapters are fantastic. He’s very comprehensive with everything from the writing and recording process, to the influences that shaped the album, to the various collaborators MJ worked with, to the month/year songs were worked on. Bad is especially detailed; the track-by-track section is as good as it gets.

This is one of the things that I think makes the book - hm, I'm willing to say it's invaluable.

Unfortunately, he still engages in a substantial amount of guesswork and includes information that has long been corrected and/or debunked. Also, it seems as though his resources for MJ’s post-Bad albums were limited, because each succeeding chapter becomes less and less informative. By the time you get to Invincible and MJ’s final years, it’s basically like reading the Wikipedia article.

I agree, hence my lukewarm feelings overall about it. I'm basically conflicted about the book. As you say, each chapter becomes less and less compelling and it feels weird as you're reading it.

His writing oddly enough also seems less journalistic in his 2019 reissue, and more… high school-ish, if that makes sense?

It does make sense.

The original book was very succinct and well-thought-out, and the new edition (which I’d estimate is at least 50% rewritten) feels very thrown together.

Again, yes. I haven't seen the first edition but the 2019 one does feel ... um, kind of unsatisfying.

You can feel the sharp contrast between long, academia-esque sentences, and short, 11th-grade-English-essay ones. A nit pick, but one I feel compelled to note.

No, I struggle with this. He is an academic and I personally love good, accessible academic writing. But he does jump about with his writing style and it gets a bit wearing. I think this is partly why I use it to dip into as a reference tool more than anything. I am gonna read it a second time just to see if my reaction to it has changed at all but you are reminding me of my initial reactions.

If you’re a newer fan with a limited understanding of MJ’s catalog, it’s a great starting point. Otherwise, I’d suggest Making Michael by Mike Smallcombe, which in my opinion is the definitive MJ biography. Concise, objective, and not shy from including observations that critique the man.

Hm, interesting. I liked Smallcombe's book to start off with but got increasingly fed-up with it as I went along. It's another one I read years ago and haven't gone back to. I keep meaning to. I thought he really ran out of steam as the book progressed and it became more - I wouldn't say 'tabloidy' but, I dunno, more superficial? There is some great stuff in there and I think it complements the Vogel book quite well. I don't think either of them work perfectly on their own and I'm glad I have both. I do need to re-read Smallcombe.

@Mister_Jay_Tee - Forgot to say, re the Vogel 2019 edition, he doesn't look at the short films or live shows in any detail. He doesn't cover posthumous releases. He stops at Invincible. He mentions unreleased material briefly in the epilogue and also some of them are listed in the appendix.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Good thoughts and feelings everyone;

I've been seeing the book probably ever since it came out, I just never got around to renting or paying for it. It's available for free on Archive.com, so I think it's the first edition. It seems like overall it's a good summation of a lot of info that's basically been summarized here and elsewhere in the forums.

 

[ChanceToDance]

What unreleased unheard this books talked about

I've sent you everything 2 times. I've also said this 2 times.

 

[Lotfi11k]

I've sent you everything 2 times. I've also said this 2 times.

No i mean second person book not vogel

 

[Andymachine]

Even Serious Effect (which Imo is the best Loren track) pales in comparison to the Teddy Riley tracks on Dangerous

Even Serious Effect sounds crap to me. Bryan Loren tracks are really dull and repetitive . Man in Black sounds like a NKOTB song , Work that Body and She Got it another pair of boring songs which are ultra dated now for a future release unless they make a " The Out takes " album which of course will never happen . Teddy Riley is one of the driving forces which made Dangerous such a success , MJ obviously as well lol . Loren seems to be a one trick pony with his songs , which mainly are boring apart from one song SuperFly Sister which is brilliant but i have a feeling MJ had more to do with that than Loren. I remember when people were wondering about Men in Black and thinking it was some sorta holy grail and when we finally heard it most of us thought "oh is that it? " lol .

 

[ChanceToDance]

No i mean second person book not vogel

You mean Making Michael? I haven't read it entirely but I remember it mentioning that the songs That, Bio and Hanson were the first songs made for the Invincible album. It has plenty of interesting info on the book.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Even Serious Effect sounds crap to me. Bryan Loren tracks are really dull and repetitive . Man in Black sounds like a NKOTB song , Work that Body and She Got it another pair of boring songs which are ultra dated now for a future release unless they make a " The Out takes " album which of course will never happen . Teddy Riley is one of the driving forces which made Dangerous such a success , MJ obviously as well lol . Loren seems to be a one trick pony with his songs , which mainly are boring apart from one song SuperFly Sister which is brilliant but i have a feeling MJ had more to do with that than Loren. I remember when people were wondering about Men in Black and thinking it was some sorta holy grail and when we finally heard it most of us thought "oh is that it? " lol .

Now let's not rewrite history. All the Bryan Tracks would sound crazy right after Bad, or even instead of it, idk, it would not sound so out of place. More honestly it just sounds, organic. MJ is flowing and having fun.

Of course Teddy's stuff is better, the goal was to make more modern dance R&B music. BL's stuff is kinda just pop/funk tunes like Black or White.

I'll take any of the Bryan Loren tracks over Slave to the Rhythm tbh, now that's a boring song.

 

[Andymachine]

Now let's not rewrite history. All the Bryan Tracks would sound crazy right after Bad, or even instead of it, idk, it would not sound so out of place. More honestly it just sounds, organic. MJ is flowing and having fun.

Of course Teddy's stuff is better, the goal was to make more modern dance R&B music. BL's stuff is kinda just pop/funk tunes like Black or White.

I'll take any of the Bryan Loren tracks over Slave to the Rhythm tbh, now that's a boring song.

Agreed on Slave to the Rhythm .

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

Even Serious Effect sounds crap to me. Bryan Loren tracks are really dull and repetitive . Man in Black sounds like a NKOTB song , Work that Body and She Got it another pair of boring songs which are ultra dated now for a future release unless they make a " The Out takes " album which of course will never happen . Teddy Riley is one of the driving forces which made Dangerous such a success , MJ obviously as well lol . Loren seems to be a one trick pony with his songs , which mainly are boring apart from one song SuperFly Sister which is brilliant but i have a feeling MJ had more to do with that than Loren. I remember when people were wondering about Men in Black and thinking it was some sorta holy grail and when we finally heard it most of us thought "oh is that it? " lol .

Work That Body is a terrible song Imo. The Jackson 5 lyric in it is jarring and doesn't fit the song at all. Even Superfly Sister (which, again, is too long and uninteresting) is not nearly as good as its "sister" track, BOTDF. I get that Loren is upset his tracks weren't included, but the reality is that most (if not all) of them are just not up to par with MJ's standards.

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

Even Serious Effect sounds crap to me. Bryan Loren tracks are really dull and repetitive . Man in Black sounds like a NKOTB song , Work that Body and She Got it another pair of boring songs which are ultra dated now for a future release unless they make a " The Out takes " album which of course will never happen . Teddy Riley is one of the driving forces which made Dangerous such a success , MJ obviously as well lol . Loren seems to be a one trick pony with his songs , which mainly are boring apart from one song SuperFly Sister which is brilliant but i have a feeling MJ had more to do with that than Loren. I remember when people were wondering about Men in Black and thinking it was some sorta holy grail and when we finally heard it most of us thought "oh is that it? " lol .

Man In Black sounds very similar to Do The Bartman to me. Both tracks even have the same bass lick at the end.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Agreed on Slave to the Rhythm .

Well that's fair enough. It's got great vocals still.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Hm, interesting. I liked Smallcombe's book to start off with but got increasingly fed-up with it as I went along. It's another one I read years ago and haven't gone back to. I keep meaning to. I thought he really ran out of steam as the book progressed and it became more - I wouldn't say 'tabloidy' but, I dunno, more superficial? There is some great stuff in there and I think it complements the Vogel book quite well. I don't think either of them work perfectly on their own and I'm glad I have both. I do need to re-read Smallcombe.

That’s very fair. Smallcombe’s book is less about the music and more about the entirety of MJ’s career, which comes with a lot of ups and downs. I personally appreciated that he was unashamed to dive into the darker elements, but always tried to evenly weigh it with commentary from observers rather than try to push the reader in any one direction. But I think your perspective is the best: the Smallcombe and Vogel books complement one another well.

Now let's not rewrite history. All the Bryan Tracks would sound crazy right after Bad, or even instead of it, idk, it would not sound so out of place. More honestly it just sounds, organic. MJ is flowing and having fun.

Of course Teddy's stuff is better, the goal was to make more modern dance R&B music. BL's stuff is kinda just pop/funk tunes like Black or White.

I'll take any of the Bryan Loren tracks over Slave to the Rhythm tbh, now that's a boring song.

Yeah, I like the Loren tracks enough. “Superfly Sister,” “She Got It,” and “Serious Effect” specifically are great. I wouldn’t say I’m dying to hear more, but they’re better than I remember them being. And yeah, the demo of “Slave to the Rhythm” is terribly mediocre. I’m astonished MJ saw anything in it. The Justin Bieber remix (and elements of the Timbaland one) actually bring it to life.

 

[zinniabooklover]

That’s very fair. Smallcombe’s book is less about the music and more about the entirety of MJ’s career, which comes with a lot of ups and downs.

Let me return the favour! Your comment re Smallcombe's book is very fair. I definitely need to read it again. And it does have it's strengths plus I appreciate what he was trying to achieve and the effort that went into it. It's frustrating looking at the list of people who declined to be interviewed by him. I do understand Rod Temperton wanting to live a quiet, private life but, selfishly, I can't help wishing he had said yes to the request. Especially with Smallcombe being British.

I personally appreciated that he was unashamed to dive into the darker elements,

Yes. I do think that's important. There is a need to look at Michael and his life and career with a clear eye. No need to be all tabloidy. That's unnecessary and unacceptable. But a balanced look at the facts of Michael's life - as long as it's done calmly and respectfully, I don't have a problem with that.

but always tried to evenly weigh it with commentary from observers rather than try to push the reader in any one direction.

Yes, he does try to stay out of the reader's way, IIRC. It was years ago that I read it. I need to go and dig it out.

But I think your perspective is the best: the Smallcombe and Vogel books complement one another well.

They really do. For me, anyway.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I’m astonished MJ saw anything in it.

The lyrics are really good. And he sings the heck out of them.

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

The lyrics are really good. And he sings the heck out of them.

I agree. It’s one of his best vocals ever Imo

 

[AlwaysThere]

The lyrics are really good. And he sings the heck out of them.

The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.

the production isn’t good because it’s a demo lol

 

[AlwaysThere]

the production isn’t good because it’s a demo lol

Not an excuse imo. Most MJ demos sound fantastic even in an unfinished state—Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, I’m So Blue, Free, Loving You, DYKWYCA, I Am a Loser, Days in Gloucestershire, Serious Effect, so on and so forth. Slave to the Rhythm is just very boring on a compositional and production level. MJ’s singing is the saving grace.

 

[SeriousFX]

The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.

What Hollywood said, plus the fact that Babyface and LA Reid's productions are usually top-notch (see their production on Bobby Brown's album), making its status as an unfinished demo all the more obvious.

 

[AlwaysThere]

What Hollywood said, plus the fact that Babyface and LA Reid's productions are usually top-notch (see their production on Bobby Brown's album), making its status as an unfinished demo all the more obvious.

They’re great, but everyone has misses. I dunno, I don’t hear it and think, “There’s something special here.” It just feels very do-nothing.

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

Not an excuse imo. Most MJ demos sound fantastic even in an unfinished state—Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, I’m So Blue, Free, Loving You, DYKWYCA, I Am a Loser, Days in Gloucestershire, Serious Effect, so on and so forth. Slave to the Rhythm is just very boring on a compositional and production level. MJ’s singing is the saving grace.

Sure, but She Was Lovin Me, In the Back, She Got It, etc. are real incomplete though. Depends on the demo and how much it was worked on.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Sure, but She Was Lovin Me, In the Back, She Got It, etc. are real incomplete though. Depends on the demo and how much it was worked on.

True, but at least the last two songs felt like they had a concrete foundation. In the Back is a fully-fledged music track with a rough vocal. Even She Was Lovin’ Me at least had an atmosphere. Slave to the Rhythm feels amateurish; it’s one of the only songs that I feel needed a remix to be worth listening to. But that’s just my perspective of it.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.

It's not Willing and Waiting levels of polished that much we can say.

Add up Timbo polish and it still is just kinda boring melodically. Far less catchy than anything Bad era.

 

[Lotfi11k]

Falling Down"

Michael Jackson Bryan Loren

One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991. Recorded in November 1989. Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible

 

[SmoothMel7]

Falling Down"

Michael Jackson Bryan Loren

One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991. Recorded in November 1989. Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible

I have never seen this song before.

 

[Clay7]

Falling Down"

Michael Jackson Bryan Loren

One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991. Recorded in November 1989. Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible

Likely fake

 

[Lotfi11k]

Likely fake

MJ made with Loren 25 song maybe it is real

 

[Lotfi11k]

I have never seen this song before.

We don't now MJ with Loren they made 25 song

 

[Lotfi11k]

Shana mangatal told me .call it off MJ sung only chorus .all truth you need same .truth about youth only LL cool j who sung and don't believe it have Michael vocals