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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

Fuzball said:
This raises the question, where did Bruce Swedien hear Buffalo Bill, if it was never an option for Bad or Dangerous?

Regarding Victory sessions, Bruce wasn't present at Soundcastle. He mixed SoS at Westlake. Bruce also had recorded (and mixed) two MJ songs for Victory at Image Recorders with assistant engineer John van Nest - Be Not Always and an "unknown" song. Was that "unknown" track perhaps BB?
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John said BB and Liberian were set aside for Bad. Maybe Michael played it during the early pre-production of Bad…..roughly 1985

Fuzball said:
Judging by Frank Dileo's statement to RollingStone in Feb'84 I'd say it's possible. When exactly did Jermaine join the brothers on Victory? I wonder if he's contributed BV to BB.
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Remember Victory’s original release date was mid 1983. Jermaine was on board by then

Derek1984 said:
We know Bruce has heard Buffalo Bill by a quote he said about the song. So my guess is this was the other unknown track. Given that Bruce has heard this, he probably did mix it. BB must be very close to being complete.

I wonder if the Jackson brothers providing background vocals on this track is why it hasn't been released yet by the estate. Or, it's a song that might be harder to remix?
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John said it’s not complete and Michael only sang the chorus. Also said it’s possible there’s a guide vocal on the original master but he wasn’t sure
 
Fuzball said:
Bill Bottrell on Buffalo Bill:

No B.B. during Dangerous.
It was worked on very early in Hayvenhurst sessions.
Maybe even earlier. Victory perhaps
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I worked on B.B. early during Hayvenhurst. It was a Matt Forger basic track.
Stop reading estate carelessness.
They get stuff from old track sheets or tape boxes, and never consult the actual people who were there.
 
Fuzball said:
I worked on B.B. early during Hayvenhurst. It was a Matt Forger basic track.
Stop reading estate carelessness.
They get stuff from old track sheets or tape boxes, and never consult the actual people who were there.
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So I assume Bill & Matt produced BB in Hayvenhurst?
 
Bill again:

I don't know for sure. I hear "Cheater" for the first time a month ago. I heard Greg. I remember one song done at Soundcastle with Greg and MJ. I remember John McClain there, I remember doing claps in my usual way.
I can hear my console, my studio, my mixing style in '85.
I can hear all that in the recording of Cheater.
I have no other song to place in those sessions.
I could be wrong.
But credits on unreleased songs are notoriously wrong also.
 
In terms of unreleased tracks recorded during the Invincible session, I would say that at this point we have almost heard them all? At least the ones with vocals.

The only ones missing are:
1. Hot Fun In The Summertime
2. Monster (apparently with few vocals)

Anyway, it's crazy how much better those Invincible outtakes are compared to most of the album tracks.
 
Saka21 said:
In terms of unreleased tracks recorded during the Invincible session, I would say that at this point we have almost heard them all? At least the ones with vocals.

The only ones missing are:
1. Hot Fun In The Summertime
2. Monster (apparently with few vocals)

Anyway, it's crazy how much better those Invincible outtakes are compared to most of the album tracks.
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There's a cover of Jay-Z's Girls, Girls, Girls in the vault, and apparently there's a song from the producer of Don't Walk Away called Just A Lover In My Life that MJ recorded vocals for, but it was never mixed in the song itself.
bricenajar.com

Richard Stites - BRICE NAJAR

Michael Jackson Teddy Riley Invincible Richard Stites Don't Walk Away Sony Music
bricenajar.com
www.businessinsider.com

Jay-Z's former producer says Michael Jackson recorded a version of 'Girls, Girls, Girls' but it went missing for 20 years

Just Blaze said he found the recordings while searching his computer two years ago. He previously thought the collaboration was "an urban legend."
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

But yeah as far as it goes we pretty much milked that era dry, most of what was releasable already leaked or was officially released. I don't doubt that there's gonna be some songs that we never heard of given the insane amount of producers MJ was working with at that time.
 
Saka21 said:
In terms of unreleased tracks recorded during the Invincible session, I would say that at this point we have almost heard them all? At least the ones with vocals.

The only ones missing are:
1. Hot Fun In The Summertime
2. Monster (apparently with few vocals)

Anyway, it's crazy how much better those Invincible outtakes are compared to most of the album tracks.
Click to expand...
As far as material we’ve been able to definitively pin down to the Invincible sessions, yeah. But there’s still a handful of demos we haven’t been able to identify a recording date for (“Boy No” and “Don’t Make Me Stay”). Plus, while Damien Shields listed off plenty of instrumentals he’d heard, it’s been demonstrated that the US Copyright registrations don’t always hold the most up-to-date versions of those songs, so it’s possible that updated/later mixes with vocals exist.

I wish someone was able to sit down with Buxer and MP, go through their hard drives, and just confirm/deny everything.
 
we have an MJ song (vocals only in the chorus) called Monster. It has nothing to do with Threatened. Rodney was the producer of only the songs he co-wrote. Before I knew about all the BS of the Cascio songs, I brought our Monster for Teddy to hear, because the chorus would have worked with the Cascio version. He didn’t want to use it, and I now know why. - Michael Prince
 
On if Smile and Childhood were recorded the same day.

Without trying to sound funny or snarky, it's a lot harder than it sounds to remember and explain the details and timeline of those projects. At some points we had more than 10 production teams working in nearly a dozen studios on perhaps 40+ grooves and song ideas.
There were early versions, some songs would start with one production team, then migrate to another, etc. It was never quite as cut-and-dry as saying "Today we are going to record Earth Song," because that song started in 1986, but went into serious production in 1994! There were string dates, synth overdubs, choir sessions, BG vocals, scratch vocals, live vocals (ala "Childhood") and lead vocals.
Most of the lead vocals weren't recorded until the final five or six weeks of the project - for any of the songs - so there really is no simple answer to your question - imo. - Brad Sundberg
 
BlackAnon said:
we have an MJ song (vocals only in the chorus) called Monster. It has nothing to do with Threatened. Rodney was the producer of only the songs he co-wrote. Before I knew about all the BS of the Cascio songs, I brought our Monster for Teddy to hear, because the chorus would have worked with the Cascio version. He didn’t want to use it, and I now know why. - Michael Prince
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Where's this quote from?
 
ChanceToDance said:
Where's this quote from?
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In response to Devante from the group Jodeci being the original producer for Invincible

Michael Jackson called DeVante 'a genius'. DeVante was the original producer for Michael Jackson's Invincible album. Michael Jackson spoke to my mother on the telephone and said 'you have a very talented son, we are going to do some wonderful things together!' Devante started production on Michael Jackson's album... I also traveled to St. Louis Missouri to help DeVante with the Michael Jackson album, my job was to sing and arrange the vocal harmonies to give Michael Jackson a guideline when singing the vocals. DeVante never finished the production of Michael Jackson's album because he was being rushed, the producer; Rodney Jerkins finished the production instead. However, Michael Jackson still paid DeVante and Michael kept one song idea by DeVante. The song titled 'Threatened' (on Michael Jackson's invincible album) was originally a song titled 'Monster' which was written and produced by DeVante, Michael kept the basic instrumental pattern DeVante wrote (which was later performed and produced by Rodney Jerkins) and Michael titled the song; 'Threatened'.
 
Song leaks can be unpredictable and random. Do you think a future leak of "He Who Makes the Sky Grey" is unlikely? It's a title that has always interested me, along with the fact that it was conceived in Bahrain.
 
The best chance for a song to leak is if they're recorded from a seminar, those types of recordings aren't as protected as a high-quality recording nor are they as costly. Collectors rarely share the stuff they have given how much of a high investment these songs tend to be, while a seminar recording is passed around more frequently and is more likely to fall in the hands of someone who is more "careless" and eventually get to someone who's willing to leak them.

Speaking of which I still don't know how the seminar snippets from last year haven't leaked, the songs weren't that costly, they were being sold for only 330 euros. Does anyone know exactly what was played at that seminar from 2022? I heard from someone that they played Adore You, GYWOOM and Days In Gloucestershire but never in a million years would I have imagined that they played Water and Michael's Affirmation as well. I lost contact with the person so I can't confirm it with them anymore. Anyone else might know anything?
 
AlwaysThere said:
As far as material we’ve been able to definitively pin down to the Invincible sessions, yeah. But there’s still a handful of demos we haven’t been able to identify a recording date for (“Boy No” and “Don’t Make Me Stay”). Plus, while Damien Shields listed off plenty of instrumentals he’d heard, it’s been demonstrated that the US Copyright registrations don’t always hold the most up-to-date versions of those songs, so it’s possible that updated/later mixes with vocals exist.

I wish someone was able to sit down with Buxer and MP, go through their hard drives, and just confirm/deny everything.
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Don't make me stay and boy no it's not instrumental
 
Sisoqqq said:
Don't make me stay and boy no it's not instrumental
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Sisoqqq said:
Why no one asked about bio
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Nobody said those first two were strictly instrumental. Damien has gone through those multiple times.

Again, Bio has been discussed.

It's healthier to accept that much of what remains - especially the late 2000s material - is incomplete vocally.
 
AlexBoing_BestOfJoy said:
Song leaks can be unpredictable and random. Do you think a future leak of "He Who Makes the Sky Grey" is unlikely? It's a title that has always interested me, along with the fact that it was conceived in Bahrain.
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I'm interested in michael mckeller, Lucy is in love with Linus, & Buffalo Bill
 
Tweet Recaps: BILL BOTTRELL

GENERAL NOTES & OBSERVATIONS
  • According to Bottrell, “weird shit… went down during the latter days at Larrabee” during the Dangerous sessions, but declines to elaborate at this time.
  • Bottrell last collaborated with the estate on Cirque du Soleil’s One in 2011, which he cited as a poor experience, and has not spoken with them since.
  • He finds it “astonishing that [the] MJ fam can expect to listen to any unreleased material… I’m sorry for M[J]. He would not have let this continue.”
  • He has expressed negative sentiments towards Brad Sundberg and his handling and procurement of MJ’s unreleased material.
  • He has no studio footage or photographs.

SPECIFIC SONG NOTES
  • “BUFFALO BILL.” Worked on during the early Bad sessions at Hayvenhurst, though it likely originated “earlier. Victory perhaps.” Described as a “Matt Forger basic track” upon Bottrell’s arrival. Never revisited during the Dangerous sessions, despite contradictory reports.
  • “CHEATER.” Per his session calendars, his memories of working with MJ and Greg Phillinganes, and the sonic characteristics of the released demo, he infers that it was recorded during a “group of sessions” at Soundcastle Studios “during or after Victory [in] ‘84."
  • “CHICAGO 1945.” The setting “gave rise” to the “Smooth Criminal” short film.
  • “CRACK KILLS.” Working title: “Rap Song.” Recorded on November 4, 5, and 7, 1986.
  • “EARTH SONG.” “What About Us” was never a working/early title: “I can only guess that early on somebody in the studio wrote [that] on a tape box or track sheet.”
  • “GIVE IN TO ME.” Complete writing session worktape (an excerpt of which leaked in the Brad Sundberg theft) runs 1 hour and 55 minutes.
  • “IF YOU DON’T LOVE ME.” One of only three Bottrell-produced outtakes from Dangerous. Recorded in 1989 and briefly revisited/remixed in 2010 for Michael. Bottrell has denounced the leaked mix/es (“unfinished in very important ways, including vocals”) but speaks highly of the 2010 mix, noting that the “small fixes … “did improve the overall listening experience.”
  • “MAKE OR BREAK.” Recorded circa December 1985 at Hayvenhurst.
  • “MONKEY BUSINESS.” Bottrell doesn’t care for the released mix and prefers the rawer version that surfaced from the Brad Sundberg theft.
  • “STATE OF SHOCK” (w/ Freddie Mercury). Bottrell mixed the demo, which features MJ “bang[ing] on the drum in a closet.” When told that Randy Hansen is Mercury’s songwriting pseudonym, Bottrell responded, “That’s gotta be the answer.”
  • “TOMBOY.” Doubts veracity of the story that MJ gave guitarist Roger Troutman the multitracks after the song failed to make Bad.
  • “TURNIN’ ME OFF.” Worked on with John Barnes during the Bad sessions. “Weird little thing. Very unlikeable.”
  • “WHO IS IT.” Started production in late September 1990 at Record One. MJ performs the falsetto “harmonized stack intro” at the beginning of the song.
  • “WHY CAN’T YOU HEAR ME.” One of six songs demoed for MJ’s consideration in Bahrain in 2006. Drum programming by John Macleod. MJ heard the tracks but never worked on them. Bottrell had no involvement with the demo leaking online, and seemed shocked to discover it had when presented with it in early 2024.
 
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Tweet Recaps: JOE VOGEL

GENERAL NOTES & OBSERVATIONS
  • The estate provided some access to MJ’s unreleased material, but “most of the good stuff” came directly from collaborators.

SPECIFIC SONG NOTES
  • “MAKE A WISH.” Vocally complete.
  • “MAKE OR BREAK.” Vocally complete.
  • “NEVERLAND LANDING.” Vocally complete. Features orchestration and described as “very charming.”
  • “TOMBOY.” Vocally complete.
  • “TURNIN’ ME OFF.” Among Vogel’s favorite outtakes.
 
*waits for Lotfi asking questions*

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