Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Anti-Gay Church

MJForever31

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The Supreme Court on Wednesday ruled that the First Amendment right to free speech protects church members who have been staging anti-gay protests at military funerals. The case, Snyder v. Phelps, centers around an incident in which Fred Phelps and other members of the Westboro Baptist Church picketed the funeral of Matthew Snyder, a Marine killed in Iraq in 2006. The court ruled 8-1 in favor of Phelps, with Chief Justice John Roberts writing the opinion. Roberts said that despite the pain the protests can inflict upon families and friends, "On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker." Samuel Alito was the only justice to dissent. "Our profound national commitment to free and open debate is not a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case," Alito said.
 
I think homosexuality is wrong. With that said, it really angers me when people go to funerals and stuff like that to protest how a person lived their life. I fail to see how this upholds any of Christ's teachings. To me, it seems like a self serving way to draw attention to people who have not even the basic human concerns over a person's feelings. Funerals are not for the dead person, they are for the dead person's loved ones to have the chance to say goodbye. How insensitive and just plain stupid is it to deny a person the dignity to die in peace because you disagree with how they lived? When people are grieving, they don't need to be bothered with that mess. They need peace. I think it is disgusting. And, IMO, I doubt Christ is smiling down and telling them they are doing a great thing. I even doubt if they are thinking about Christ at all.

This reminds me of when I was much younger and the guy Pedro from the Real World died and people protested his funeral. I still remember that after all of these years because it made me so mad. I just can't help thinking that these same people would be furious if a group came out and protested their funerals because they claim to follow the Bible. IMO this is a claim that is not backed up by deed.
 
I think homosexuality is wrong.

I think heterosexuality is wrong. I don't believe in heterosexuality. I find it morally reprehensible. Straights choose to live that way, and will suffer the consequences.

Doesn't everything I just said sound really stupid? Well, can you now imagine how insulting it is for gay people to read similar things? To be told you choose who you are attracted to, choose to be alienated, choose to be a second class citizen, and choose to be hated is very insulting. Some things in life just is. Like the sun in the sky or the grass under our feet. It is what it is. Anything to contrary is all absurd. Saying things like "I believe homosexuality is wrong", you are suggesting that you, yourself, chose to be straight. You are saying that straight people choose to be intimate with the opposite sex. You are saying that sexuality is a choice and you could have easily been a homosexuality had you allowed it. You are saying human sexuality has nothing to do with genetics or hormones. I guess I never got the pamphlet stating that I get a choice. Bummer.

I do realize we are entitled to our own opinions but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss them with each other. I do appreciate that you still respect others feelings at funerals despite your anti-gay stance, but it still stings to read such comments as "I think being gay is wrong". I think people need to challenge their feelings about things in which they were raised not to believe in or approve of. Challenge the things in which we don't understand. That doesn't mean that we must all believe the same things, but at least be firm in your understanding. Lots of different people have lots of different reasons to not like someone else. That's why this world is in such turmoil. We pick and choose what is right and wrong in order to make ourselves feel better. In doing so, we alienate entire peoples. That's what is wrong. We need more open dialog. Saying "That's just what I believe in" is not enough. That's the same kind of logic that a terrorist uses to justify killing innocent people. If we never challenged ourselves then society would never change and things like the civil rights movement wouldn't have ever happened. Black people would still be owned as slaves because at the time, it was perfectly moral and very much the society norm.

I'm sorry if you feel targeted and I don't mean to sound preachy, I only wish to create a more open dialog in which we can come to understand each other better as people. In the end, we are all only human and there is no one right answer to the questions in life. I hope you understand and I also hope I didn't offend you (even though comments like yours is hurtful to people like me). :flowers:

As for the topic, there is a difference between freedom of speech and hate speech. Some things shouldn't be allowed within such close vicinity of those who are mourning a tragic loss. No one experiencing such horrific pain should also have to suffer unnecessary and cruel provocation like that. The groups and churches who promote hate will experience the wrath of their god more so than any "sinful" act or person they are condemning. I wouldn't want to be any of those protesters, that's for sure. If you're religious, than know that there's a special place in hell for people like that.
 
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Oh Travis. It is ok. Thank you for being concerned about my feelings. I understand very much that not everyone will agree with me on the stance I have taken. I am also sorry if you took offense to what I said. My beliefs are not just based off of what I have been taught, I think it is very important to be educated. I also think it is important to be able to have a dialogue and I am not opposed to this as I have had many dialogues on the subject and I have gotten my different points of view. But I must say these dialogues gave me a more understanding viewpoint but ultimately not a different one.
I also want to say, I cannot choose what is right and wrong. This has been decided already and I simply choose to follow it or not. We all make our own decisions. But as we are not the judges of one another and we are not the reader of hearts, how can we decide that we will go to someone's funeral and condemn them for how they lived their life. I bet most of them are hypocrites anyway probably commiting fornication. Living in glass houses.
Jesus condemned the Pharisees for following the letter of the law and missing the meaning behind the law, namely Love and Mercy. People who do stuff like this, even if they follow the law themselves, have missed what is more important. And, I do think that they have a judgment reserved for them. (But I don't believe in hell as typical Christians do, but I won't even get into that :)).
 
As loathsome as the members of the Westboro baptist church are, I have to agree with the Supreme Court's decision to protect their right to free[ly moronic] speech.

Edit: The Westboro Baptist Church's protests go beyond 'anti-gay' protests. In fact, the bulk of their protests seem to be at military-related funerals, as they claim that "god" hates America, that god's punishment to gays is AIDS, and they thank god for dead soldiers, etc.

Oh, and apparently, god likes to blow up shuttles, according to them:

westboro_baptist_church_drones_church.jpg


Perhaps the worst thing about them is that they use children to spread their idiot speak. However, it's all in free speech. =/
 
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I think homosexuality is wrong. With that said, it really angers me when people go to funerals and stuff like that to protest how a person lived their life. I fail to see how this upholds any of Christ's teachings. To me, it seems like a self serving way to draw attention to people who have not even the basic human concerns over a person's feelings. Funerals are not for the dead person, they are for the dead person's loved ones to have the chance to say goodbye. How insensitive and just plain stupid is it to deny a person the dignity to die in peace because you disagree with how they lived? When people are grieving, they don't need to be bothered with that mess. They need peace. I think it is disgusting. And, IMO, I doubt Christ is smiling down and telling them they are doing a great thing. I even doubt if they are thinking about Christ at all.

I just can't help thinking that these same people would be furious if a group came out and protested their funerals because they claim to follow the Bible. IMO this is a claim that is not backed up by deed.


Echoing these sentiments. ...Establishing, say, anti-KKK groups, to me, it's almost the same as the KKK ones, because their foundation is hatred all the same, and manifested anger that is ultimately self-detrimental. It's inhumane to be ganging on the deceased, isn't death (and God knows, most likely their afterlife) a dreadful thing?.. If, say, X or Y died gunned down or at the hand of a jealous freak, isn't that tragedy already? Even when Evan Chandler committed suicide, I still felt not too good seeing many gloating over that and saying hell will consume them forever. And that was a terrible, devilish man that destroyed Michael's life. But how can some be speaking ill and be hateful of a dead person, knowing full well that hell isn't something to be taken lightly, it's eternal and beyond the human comprehension of horrible..? What if the ill-wishers and ongoing haters will one day see that for themselves when Judgement Day comes.. for their own meanness and they'll be just as helpless?....
 
As loathsome as the members of the Westboro baptist church are, I have to agree with the Supreme Court's decision to protect their right to free[ly moronic] speech.

Edit: The Westboro Baptist Church's protests go beyond 'anti-gay' protests. In fact, the bulk of their protests seem to be at military-related funerals, as they claim that "god" hates America, that god's punishment to gays is AIDS, and they thank god for dead soldiers, etc.

Oh, and apparently, god likes to blow up shuttles, according to them:

westboro_baptist_church_drones_church.jpg


Perhaps the worst thing about them is that they use children to spread their idiot speak. However, it's all in free speech. =/




Are those children really holding those boards? Jesus!!! And they say that they believe in God or Christ or whatever. ? think they should create a new religion and name it Pharisaism.
 
^No, they're just holograms, mean tricks played by <i>them</i> to screw with you.

I am afraid those children really are holding those boards. (!!!!!!)
It's all part of the Westboro Church's plan to tire children's arms by making them hold boards with hate speak on them. They can't grow up to give in to their sinful homosexual urges&#8482; if they hold these signs and stand in place all day--a brilliant plan!

No, seriously, though.. those kids shouldn't be involved in matters which they obviously don't understand, but sadly the WC use them as tools for their objectives, as you can see. It's sad, and I reckon child abuse in a way, but unfortunately there's nothing we can do about it.
 
Oh these Westboro Cult are not a church. They are a mental hate group led by Fred Phelps & consisting mostly of members of his own large family. They are banned from entering the UK because they are a hate group.

They don't just hate gay people, they (& according to them, God also) hate everything & everyone who is not part of their cult of ''elect'' chosen ones'' (chosen before birth).

There was footage of 2 of Phelps' grandaughters saying they hope and pray that everyone else in the world, outside of their Westboro Cult die horribly and burn in Hell.

According to them Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Gandhi are all rotting in hell. The natural disasters are caused by God because he hates the world & wants everyone to die. The Victims of tragic events like Viginia Tech are in hell & God sent the killer.. basically God hates everyone except them, and everyone except them is going to hell.

They called Obama's daughters "satanic spawn" of a "murderous bastard".

They hate & attack all religions apart from their 'church' of like 80 people. I don't even know why they call themselves 'Baptist'.

Read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
(notice the 'Thank God for 9/11' sign.. what sense does that make?.. none)

You might also be interested in watching Louis Theroux's documentry about them 'Louis Theroux: The most hated family in America'.

They did have several websites.. godhatesfags godhatesamerica godhatestheworld (including an interactive map you can click to tell you why god hates every single country in the world).. etc. etc...but someone hacked the websites last week & they seem to be still down now.

You know the shooting that was in Arizona, of the Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.. well, a 9 year old little girl Christina Taylor Green was killed. They planned to picket that little girls funeral for some reason.. they are sick crazy evil people...

[youtube]Qpkxoql4xz0[/youtube]

Look at this too:

[youtube]50r0CnKq7_k[/youtube]

They are disgusting! Look how that little boy is brainwashed. & if their kids question their hateful teachings they are kicked out, disowned & going to hell & their siblings are taught to hate them, like what happened with this girl Lauren who talks about being sung lullabyes about hate & people going to hell..& being kicked out with them laughing while she was crying her eyes out. They are crazy & they do it all with a creepy smile on their face, laughing their heads off.

Also, if John Galliano can be arrested for what he said about Jewish people then I don't see why these people get away with this. They attack the Jewish people too. I REALLY don't see how they get away with the things they do.

ps. Look how they hijack songs including 'We Are The World'.. they changed the lyrics to 'God hates the world (you know he hates you) & all the people..' & that little baby girl is singing MJs song with these hateful lyrics SMDH. Hate set to music..all to get it flowing nicely into children's brains.
 
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Well, he's right in saying Sarah Palin is a cowardly brute.

LOL it's a wonder they're still alive. That footage of them being chased to their car is full of win.

Oh, yeah, they have a whole collection of 'god hates you' songs, usually arranged to pop music for obvious reasons. They had them listed on their website.
 
I cant STAND those a**holes!! I personaly dont care about their free speech. I have 3 family members in the military as we speak. One fought in Iraq and is going back to fight soon, the other is going to Afgantistan, and the other is in the Navy not sure when he is going to deploy. I find what they do and say to be sooo offensive and what makes me sick is they are protesting the very people's funerals who are fighting for their right to speak their messages of hate. I have NO Problem what so ever with Gay. Lesbians, Bisexuals, or Transgenders. I support them 100% and im all for same sex marriage. those who disagree with me thats fine thats your opinion. but we shouldnt allow these ppl to do what they do. its wrong and it should be banned. but thats my opinion.
 
^I'm pro-gay rights, not pro gay marriage though (I simply can't support such torture.) I'm pro their right to choose to get married--but god I hate all marriage. Bleh.

Anyway, back on topic...yeah, I'm pro all the stuff Westboro BC seems to hate, but I cannot say that we should take their freedom of speech away. No way. No. Seeing them makes my stomach turn, yes...but let us not forget what the founding of this country was for, and the great Enlightenment ideas under which we function to this day, those including freedom of speech.
 
Mikage Souji;3276909 said:
LOL it's a wonder they're still alive. That footage of them being chased to their car is full of win.

Yehh I know, but people should be careful around these guys. They probably want a reaction. They film everything & several of the Phelps family members are attorneys..that's how they get $$, apparently they like to sue for anything against them & have sued when people 'unlawfully disrupt their protests'.

And look at this mess:

Now, let&#8217;s move to the recent Westboro legal drama that has most Americans flustered, to say the least. In 2006, the group protested at Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder&#8217;s funeral. In response, the Marine&#8217;s father, Albert Snyder, sued Westboro. While the Snyder family won the court battle, in a bizarre turn, the family&#8217;s initial lawsuit award of $11 million was reduced, then thrown out on appeal. Even more outrageous, a judge recently ruled in the Phelps&#8217; favor, forcing the Snyder family to pay out $16,510.80 to Westboro.

http://bigjournalism.com/bhallowell...cult-of-insanity-the-westboro-baptist-church/
:scratch:??

Something is wrong here :mello:
 
can u even comment on these crazies. lol what an embarassment.
 
Westboro Baptist Church are assholes, but we can't remove their right to free speech.
 
^Why? Gays don't do anything to hurt Christians, and not everyone ascribes to that religion in any case. You don't see gays handing out pamphlets on why people should consider being gay--so there's nothing to 'stand up to.' Being GLBT isn't a choice, nor is it fun, trendy, or a fad. It's the way some people were born--homosexuality has been around since ancient times, and exists in the animal world as well. It's uncommon, but not unnatural. The GLBT community isn't threatening Christians, if anything, it seems to be almost exclusively the other way around. Christians should apply their principles to their lives only, and permit the rest of us to choose whether to follow that religion or not. Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) has no place outside of the lives of those who believe/adhere to those ideas.
 
Also, if John Galliano can be arrested for what he said about Jewish people then I don't see why these people get away with this. They attack the Jewish people too. I REALLY don't see how they get away with the things they do.

John Galliano is British, that's the difference. Hate speech is illegal in most European countries, fortunately. I'm all for freedom of speech, but there are limits. When you abuse your right to free speech to spread hatred, racism or other ideas that violate fundamental rights, you have crossed the line and the state/judiciary should give a strong signal that these ideas are NOT okay. Americans seem to be brainwashed with the idea that "freedom of speech" is the highest good and superceeds other fundamental rights (such as the right not to be discriminated based on religion, gender, sexuality or race). By allowing people to spread their repulsive ideas, you give them legitimacy. If people really believe their own disgusting theories, fine. But keep them to yourself or discuss them in a closed environment with like-minded people. Like a church.

Edit: I realize the last sentence sounds a bit harsh lol. What I mean is: religions such as Christianity also promote discriminatory ideas, particularly against homosexuals. As long as they discuss their ideas within the church, I don't have a problem with it. But don't go preaching your homophobic ideas in a public square where non-Christians and/or gays have to listen to it and could feel offended.
 
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Why does a person have to be homophobic just because they do not accept homosexuality? That sounds like ignorance on a different level to me, but ignorance nonetheless. Not everyone agrees that homosexuality is a way you are born. I for one, do not think you are born that way. I do think you may be born with a tendency towards a certain way, but you choose ultimately how you are going to live. People are born with many tendencies, but that doesn't mean to act upon that tendency is ok. I don't think God would call something unlawful if it was something that was unable to be controlled. Whether being promiscuous, homosexual, liars, whatever.

I do think it is ok to let people understand what the Bible says. But, I think it has to be done with tact and with love. And if someone does not want to hear it, move on. Why waste your time? Regardless, Is till think what these people do is in bad taste and I don't think it is out of love for their fellow man or love of Christ. And I think they are wrong in what they are doing. MHO only.
 
^I don't agree at all. There is nothing about believing in the importance of freedom of speech that is 'brainwashing.' It is among the highest and most brilliant ideas humanity has brought about. The expression of ideas, even bad ones, is something we must cherish--it is a freedom and a right. The men who crafted the bill of rights were genius men who were well-educated and knew what they were doing. It is true that some amendments, such as the right to bear arms, are a bit outdated--but freedom of speech is not.

Some people, actually, find it a bit condescending that the government steps in to prosecute 'hate speech.' Some feel it sends the message that they're not capable to 'cope' with people's stupid ideas, that their fragile psyches need government protection because they're incapable of having a thick skin. Interestingly enough, some people who are members of minority groups feel that way, so it's a more complex issue than it would seem. I read an article in one of my college textbooks on this precise issue--I would be happy to cite it if you would like. If nothing else, it makes for a fascinating read.
 
Why does a person have to be homophobic just because they do not accept homosexuality? That sounds like ignorance on a different level to me, but ignorance nonetheless. Not everyone agrees that homosexuality is a way you are born. I for one, do not think you are born that way. I do think you may be born with a tendency towards a certain way, but you choose ultimately how you are going to live. People are born with many tendencies, but that doesn't mean to act upon that tendency is ok. I don't think God would call something unlawful if it was something that was unable to be controlled. Whether being promiscuous, homosexual, liars, whatever.

I do think it is ok to let people understand what the Bible says. But, I think it has to be done with tact and with love. And if someone does not want to hear it, move on. Why waste your time? Regardless, Is till think what these people do is in bad taste and I don't think it is out of love for their fellow man or love of Christ. And I think they are wrong in what they are doing. MHO only.

Actually, homosexuality is the way some are born. It's exhibited in the animal kingdom as well, and although uncommon, it is biological and not at all a 'choice.' Why should anyone choose otherwise, when homosexuality doesn't harm anyone any more than heterosexuality does. The relationship is between two consenting parties who are biologically mature and therefore able to have relations. Whether homosexual relationships are devoid of love is debatable--some certainly are, as are some heterosexual relationships. However, others are full of love. Human connections are complex.

You are free to believe in whatever you feel like believing in. You should be able to speak your beliefs, because free speech is valuable. However, not everyone will agree--as I do not agree with what you have to say, but I defend your right to say it.
 
Actually, homosexuality is the way some are born. It's exhibited in the animal kingdom as well, and although uncommon, it is biological and not at all a 'choice.' Why should anyone choose otherwise, when homosexuality doesn't harm anyone any more than heterosexuality does. The relationship is between two consenting parties who are biologically mature and therefore able to have relations. Whether homosexual relationships are devoid of love is debatable--some certainly are, as are some heterosexual relationships. However, others are full of love. Human connections are complex.

You are free to believe in whatever you feel like believing in. You should be able to speak your beliefs, because free speech is valuable. However, not everyone will agree--as I do not agree with what you have to say, but I defend your right to say it.

And this is where the disagreement begins. The "harm" of homosexuality is another thread to debate. But you can believe as you choose, I will continue to think as I do. That is a-ok.

And for me, what these people do is not defending their right to say what they wanted to say. But where does one person's rights end and another begins. The law states that a peson can meet in a large group unobstructed as long as they do so in a peaceful manner. What about the people at the funeral? What about their right to meet in a peaceful manner. What about their rights to assemble and say what thay want to say to bury their dead? I think when it is clear that a person wants to use their rights as a way to trample on the rights of others, it should not be allowed. The problem with this, is it becomes a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?

But so are the problems of a government run by imperfect man. There's always room to oppress and room to take advantage.
 
Why does a person have to be homophobic just because they do not accept homosexuality?

Because the whole notion of not "accepting" people for their gender is discriminatory and offensive to homosexuals. I do not care what your holy book says (I am not an atheist for the record). These crazy people from the WBC base their repulsive ideas on that same book, do you realize that? Again, I'm not saying you can't have your own opinion on homosexuality. But if this opinion is obviously offensive to some, don't say it in public. Don't go to a gay bar and talk about how "unacceptable" their lifestyle is. I'm sure you get my point.

That sounds like ignorance on a different level to me, but ignorance nonetheless.

It's not ignorance.

Not everyone agrees that homosexuality is a way you are born. I for one, do not think you are born that way. I do think you may be born with a tendency towards a certain way, but you choose ultimately how you are going to live.

This is just an assumption and there is no proof whatsoever to confirm it. On the contrary, there is more evidence to suggest this assumption is false. If I understand correctly, you are saying that people may be born a certain way but they must ignore their natural tendencies and choose to spend their life with a partner they are not attracted to? For what purpose, exactly?

People are born with many tendencies, but that doesn't mean to act upon that tendency is ok.

According to you. Fortunately, the law doesn't work that way. It is intended to protect people from being discriminated based on their sexuality. Which is my point, essentially.

There was a time when women were considered inferior to men. There was a time when slavery was considered morally OK. These ideas seem crazy and outdated to us now, but they were both based on that ancient holy book.

That is my main problem with most Christians nowadays. They are so incredibly hypocritical in their beliefs. They pick and choose what they like from the Bible yet claim to live according to "God's word". If you can distance yourself from other statements in the Bible that are nowadays considered immoral, then don't hide behind this same book to condemn homosexuality. If you really believe the Bible is God's word, then you should believe all of it. If you see it more as an ethical guideline, then it shouldn't be too hard to distance yourself from the anti-gay sentiment just as you have (hopefully) distanced yourself from the idea that women are inferior or slavery is OK. If you don't, that leads me to believe there are other reasons for your discriminatory beliefs and religion is just a shield.

I don't think God would call something unlawful if it was something that was unable to be controlled. Whether being promiscuous, homosexual, liars, whatever.

If homosexuality is something beyond human control and people are born with it, then who created it?
 
Because the whole notion of not "accepting" people for their gender is discriminatory and offensive to homosexuals. I do not care what your holy book says (I am not an atheist for the record). These crazy people from the WBC base their repulsive ideas on that same book, do you realize that? Again, I'm not saying you can't have your own opinion on homosexuality. But if this opinion is obviously offensive to some, don't say it in public. Don't go to a gay bar and talk about how "unacceptable" their lifestyle is. I'm sure you get my point.

And this is where it goes down hill. Being afraid of someone who is homosexual (what it means to be homophobic. Why don't people use the proper terms when speaking is beyond me. I'm sure you get THAT point) has nothing to do with not "accepting" people because of their sexual preference all of the time. There can be a divide between. And sorry but it is ignorance on your part if you don't know the difference or if you make blanket statements about all people. I don't care if you are an athiest or not, and I don't care whether you fell differently than I do. I have about as much respect for you and your opinion as you give to mine. No one is going to walk on eggshells hiding their opinion just because it offends gays. And as I stated before those people protesting at funerals are not basing what they are doing on the Bible, if you or them can find any Biblical justification for what they are doing then I would like to see it. But I won't hold my breathe waiting for them or you, because I know it is not there. On the contrary, the Scriptures speak about loving your neighbor as yourself, and saying that some things are lawful, but not advantageous. Meaning, just because you have the right to do something, it may not be in the best interest of those involved to obsolve yourself of this right.


It's not ignorance.

Your opinion not mine.

This is just an assumption and there is no proof whatsoever to confirm it. On the contrary, there is more evidence to suggest this assumption is false. If I understand correctly, you are saying that people may be born a certain way but they must ignore their natural tendencies and choose to spend their life with a partner they are not attracted to? For what purpose, exactly?

I don't see where I said they have to stay with someone they are not attracted to. I am not going to get into what proof I have of what I have already studied extensively , since this is not the place for it. Take yourself to secular books and do your own research and stop looking to be spoon fed. There is not more evidence to say that the contrary is true. That is what you want to believe because you want corroberation to only back up what you believe. Do so if you like.. I like being educated. Humans have tendencies toward many things. Tendencies to being murderers, tendencies towards being promiscuous, tendencies towards being gay, tendencies towards liking particular colors, tendencies towards being liars, towards being followers, towards being leaders, many tendencies. As a matter of fact it has been discussed that in addition to our environment, we are very much the sum of our individual wiring. I know if a person does not see anything wrong with how they are wired they will act upon them, some feeling as if they have no choice. If a person wants to live that way, then more power to them. I know what I believe to be correct and right. I fight against my own leanings that I think are wrong and act in a way that I think will secure me happiness now and in the future. Everyone has to do the same. God is the judge and only he can read hearts and he will make the decision on what is acceptable only.

According to you. Fortunately, the law doesn't work that way. It is intended to protect people from being discriminated based on their sexuality. Which is my point, essentially.

There was a time when women were considered inferior to men. There was a time when slavery was considered morally OK. These ideas seem crazy and outdated to us now, but they were both based on that ancient holy book.

If you think this was based on the Bibile then obviously you have not read it for yourself. I can pick up a Bible and choose a verse in isolation and make it say anything I want it to say. That doesn't mean it is based on the Bible. In the past, when people had more respect for the Bible, it was common for unscrupulous people to say it was based on the Bible as a way to get people to follow what they say knowing most people would respect it if you said it was from the Bible and not do their own research as to what was really there. There has been a long history of religious brainwashing that has taken place. It is up to you to know what rthe Bible says and if it is used to justify something that is clearly wrong, and you believe that, that you are to blame.

That is my main problem with most Christians nowadays. They are so incredibly hypocritical in their beliefs. They pick and choose what they like from the Bible yet claim to live according to "God's word". If you can distance yourself from other statements in the Bible that are nowadays considered immoral, then don't hide behind this same book to condemn homosexuality. If you really believe the Bible is God's word, then you should believe all of it. If you see it more as an ethical guideline, then it shouldn't be too hard to distance yourself from the anti-gay sentiment just as you have (hopefully) distanced yourself from the idea that women are inferior or slavery is OK. If you don't, that leads me to believe there are other reasons for your discriminatory beliefs and religion is just a shield.

You obviously have not read anything I said before. You assumed you knew what I was thinking and came to your own conclusions. The Bible does not condone slavery as imagined by White Southerners. Nor does it agree with the inferiority of women as imagined by White men who just wanted to control everything. Nor does it condone the belitlling of people who are gay and the tactless act of marching at their funerals as imagined by pious, overzealous Christians. You have already shown me you don't read but assume. You have already told me that you choose to lump all people together that don't agree with you. You've already told me based on what you said, that you don't know what I am talking about or what I believe, nor do you know the Bible, yet you stand in judgment of both. Theredfore, I am telling you, on this subject, you are not worth my time. I am leaving this thread and going to spend my time elsewhere on the board where it will actually be worth it.

Have a good day!



If homosexuality is something beyond human control and people are born with it, then who created it?

Please read above.
 
^I don't agree at all. There is nothing about believing in the importance of freedom of speech that is 'brainwashing.' It is among the highest and most brilliant ideas humanity has brought about. The expression of ideas, even bad ones, is something we must cherish--it is a freedom and a right. The men who crafted the bill of rights were genius men who were well-educated and knew what they were doing. It is true that some amendments, such as the right to bear arms, are a bit outdated--but freedom of speech is not.

Of course, I wouldn't argue with you that freedom of speech is highly important and even necessary for the advancement of society. However, it should not be abused to spread hateful propaganda that is in contradiction to other fundamental rights. The WBC consist of a bunch of related lunatics who picket children's funerals with signs like "Thank God for this girl's death" and other repulsive messages. The fact that some people (and apparently, the US Supreme Court) defend these actions and excuse it as "free speech" is insane to me. What about the right of a family to grieve their loved one, the right to privacy and the right to be protected against slander, do they not matter? What about the fact that children are used for political campaigns and are forced to stand outside with hateful signs, the meaning of which they do not understand (see Louis Theroux documentary), which might traumatize them later in life? What about their rights? If people cannot see the injustice in this, then yes, they are brainwashed. Freedom of speech is not the be all and end all of everything.

Some people, actually, find it a bit condescending that the government steps in to prosecute 'hate speech.' Some feel it sends the message that they're not capable to 'cope' with people's stupid ideas, that their fragile psyches need government protection because they're incapable of having a thick skin. Interestingly enough, some people who are members of minority groups feel that way, so it's a more complex issue than it would seem. I read an article in one of my college textbooks on this precise issue--I would be happy to cite it if you would like. If nothing else, it makes for a fascinating read.

Maybe, but I guess Europeans are a bit more careful and sensitive about the boundaries of free speech as we have all seen to which it could lead. It's also a current topic considering the rise of right-wing populism in many European countries. One Dutch politician (Geert Wilders) whose party is in a co-operative coalition with the (minority) government is currently prosecuted for hate speech. This is where the right to "freedom of speech" clashes with the prohibition of hate speech. I'm also interested in this topic. I actually wanted to write my Bachelor thesis about this but I found it too unoriginal since a lot of people in my field are currently studying it... so I changed the scope a little bit and write my BA thesis about the influence of Native American principles and customs on the creation of the American constitution and Declaration of Independence :p
 
And this is where the disagreement begins. The "harm" of homosexuality is another thread to debate. But you can believe as you choose, I will continue to think as I do. That is a-ok.

Well, it's not believing, in my case. There's scientific evidence to back up my claims, and evidence in the animal world which supports homosexuality being genetic and thus not a choice. In your case, it is believing, because you're supporting your views with religious text and not secular evidence. As for homsexuality's harms, it's not any more or less harmful than heterosexual relationships. How is it harmful, in your opinion?

ginvid said:
And for me, what these people do is not defending their right to say what they wanted to say. But where does one person's rights end and another begins. The law states that a peson can meet in a large group unobstructed as long as they do so in a peaceful manner. What about the people at the funeral? What about their right to meet in a peaceful manner. What about their rights to assemble and say what thay want to say to bury their dead? I think when it is clear that a person wants to use their rights as a way to trample on the rights of others, it should not be allowed. The problem with this, is it becomes a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?

But so are the problems of a government run by imperfect man. There's always room to oppress and room to take advantage.

The Westboro Baptist Church were technically following the law. They were protesting in a public place, about a thousand feet away from where the funeral took place--which is why they can't be prosecuted. They're despicable, but they know their law, and they are technically in the right here. Had they been at the funeral, it would have been an entirely different issue.
 
People agressively promoting a sexual orientation, be that homosexual or heterosexual, is just wrong. You can't get one/people who already aren't in agreement with you to accept you when you do things like that. I'm sorry, but when I see some people wearing pink wigs, or dresses or bikinis (men) when demonstrating / protesting on the streets, one can't help but being grossed out about it. Make your point quietly, peacefully, not ostentatiously, like it happens with some artists today. Don't show off. That's repulsive, no matter which sexual orientation.

Now, I'm a Christian, and my feelings over the opposite sex thankfully are not in opposition with this religion. I can understand, however, when someone feels the other way around, yet still want to proclaim themselves as Christian. .. But one can't be one and the other, and certainly Not when, as an act of rebellion and war against Christianity not accepting certain things, one is, for instance, mocking that religion, the teachings of Christ, the Bible, etc. Going against it. That is the thing that's very very wrong and many aren't getting. At least don't continue to say you're a Christian, but a liberalist, a gnostic, whatever. God is sacred, you don't mock/question him or the Bible. And if you do, okay, but don't act against it, don't tear it down and taint it with your imperfect, prejudiced self (like many are doing with Bible, for instance, when taking out certain teachings of the Bible and putting them in the wrong contexts), it's still a holy thing, and the man never was, accept the saints and those cleansing themselves spiritually, and not judging and hating. As it is the attitude of the religious fanatics, i.e. the Christian ones (some who are that way) who are Hating on others who feel the way they do. At least be more gentle with them, because they can be awesome people, but not cuss them out and judge them, because that is So not what God and Christ are standing for. ... So, again, no need to be ostentatious (like saying, 'Hey, I'm a heteroxesual normal being", or "I'm gay and different and proud of it", loud, rebellious, hateful, whatever side one is on, for both of these extremes are wrong, are deviant.
 
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Ginvid, I don't want to get into a religious debate with you. It would be a waste of time and effort as we will never agree on this. However, I am not an atheist (you seemed to interpret my post as if I am) so I am not as sceptical about religion as you would think. I'm sorry if I offended you, as my post wasn't directed at you personally but I was trying to make a general point and I didn't want to spam the thread with multiple posts. Perhaps I should have been more clear about it.

I will stand by my opinion though. If you don't agree with it, fine. Freedom of speech, remember? :D But my post was not meant to offend anyone. If it doesn't apply to you, then there is no reason to feel offended.

Edit: I knew it wouldn't be long before Alma posted here :lol:
 
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